autocancelled aerials

[Killress]

Wait. I'm confused. Mid-aerial, if you touch the ground, there's no lag after?

 

[Tyr_03]

Yeah during the starting animation of the aerials listed in the thread, if you touch the ground the aerial cancels completely eliminating the lag. There's a certain window of time that you have to do it in which is different for each one.

 

[Excel_Zero]

^^
I just retested it. There's a very small window where Peach can have lag on it but it IS in fact autocancellable at the begining. If you use the move from as close to the ground as possible you'll notice that there is no lag at the end. With a little better timing you can get the hitbox out. If you're trying to shorthop fastfall it you're probably hitting the lag window where she falls down. I'm pretty positive on this one. And thanks!

That's what I'm actually saying. Peach can lag from the fair, but doesn't with all her other aerials. About the timming, every character has a timming for each aerial, even if it is short hopping or doing a double jump.

 

[munsif]

Arnt most of ganons aeirals auto cancelable according to the weekly charcter update

 

[Tyr_03]

Zero FX: Peach lags from her fair only if you touch the ground after the window has ended just like any other autocancellable aerial. Almost every autocancellable aerial CAN lag, it just has a window that can eliminate lag. If I remember right however, Peach's aerials except for Fair will autocancel on both ends of it, meaning you can land at basically any point of it and have no lag. Fair is not like this and has a specific window at the begining and end meaning if you mistime it, you can land with lag. Magus420 made a very informative post about autocancels on both ends of aerials if you look back a page or two which'll explain that a little better. I can assure you that Fair will autocancel at the begining though. It's just dependent on your timing. A while back there was even a video of some Peach player saying "look how fast I can do aerials" or something, floating and repeating landed Fairs to floating again. Because the lag was autocancelled, many mistook this for float cancelling which doesn't exist in Brawl.

munsif: READ THE THREAD!!! Or maybe a few posts, I've explained this about thirty times. Two definitions for autocancelling, figure it out.

 

[GeekY]

good compilation

 

[DethSmasher]

this is good, but diddy's up air autocancels. he lands on his hands upside down and flips over.

 

[Earthbound360]

Make a bigger notice on the first post with bigger fonts so people read it and realize that autocancel is NOT finishing an aerial before ou hit the ground. All of these Ganon people are starting to annoy me.

 

[Magus420]

Luigi
Nair, Bair, Uair

Hmm... after doing frame data for Luigi, I'm not quite sure I actually know what it is you mean anymore with the moves included on your list.



N-Air

Total: 45
Hit: 3-31 (Strong 3-6; Weak 7-31)
IASA: N/A
Auto Cancel: <2 36>
Landlag: 14
Landlag IASA: 11
-------------------------------------
U-Air

Total: 33
Hit: 5-11 (Strong 5-7; Weak 8-11)
IASA: 30
Auto Cancel: 19>
Landlag: 23
Landlag IASA: 14
-------------------------------------
B-Air

Total: 46
Hit: 6-16 (Strong 6-10; Weak 11-16)
IASA: 37
Auto Cancel: <5 33>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13
-------------------------------------
D-Air

Total: 32
Hit: 10-14
IASA: 29
Auto Cancel: <5 24>
Landlag: 17
Landlag IASA: 13
-------------------------------------
F-Air

Total: 35
Hit: 7-10
IASA: 24
Auto Cancel: 21>
Landlag: 30
Landlag IASA: 23



None of the beginning AC windows extend past the attack windows which is what it sounded like you were describing before (I doubt such a scenario even exists at all with any move honestly).

If that's not what you mean and instead just ending AC windows that run close to the end of the attack window, then both D-Air & F-Air which can be ACed at 10 & 11 frames after they hit are not listed, yet B-Air is listed which can't be ACed until at least 17 frames after it can hit. Both D/F-Air would much better fit this particular meaning over B-Air.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Wow umm really bad testing on my part for Luigi. I really know nothing about frame data and stuff and did all of my testing based off observation. After looking at Luigi's aerials again, none of them autocancel but simply have very little lag upon landing. It was simply my ignorance of Luigi's moveset. Again, none of this is backed by frame data but instead on, in many cases, very obvious differences in lag. Luigi is one exception in that his aerials have so little lag that I mistook them for being autocancelled. I wouldn't be surprised at all if there were others on here as well. I'm not sure what you mean when you say you don't think such a scenario is possible at all because it should be quite obvious for attacks such as Peach's Fair. If you SHFF Peach's fair, the hitbox will come out but she falls on her face giving you lots of lag. If you use the move closer to the ground or SH with no fastfall you will autocancel at the begining and ending of the move respectively while still keeping the hitbox. So maybe I'm just not understanding what you're saying. You know a lot more about this kind of thing than I do. Thanks for the correction on Luigi.

 

[Magus420]

Peach's f-air has the beginning AC window all the way up until just before the hitbox comes out, and then the ending window begins like immediately after the hitbox completes when her arm reaches downward from the swing. In other words, as long as you don't land mid-swing you'll be landing during either of those two massive AC windows. While pretty much right next to both ends of it, neither actually overlap the actual hit window itself to my knowledge.

When I say I don't think that would exist, I'm talking about the beginning AC window extending past the beginning of the hit window. In Peach's f-air's case, you can hit and then immediately after land and AC using the ending AC window which begins just as the hit window ends.

 

[Tyr_03]

I think I might be getting what you mean but I'm still a bit confused. I don't usually deal with frames and stuff. But if what I'm thinking is right than Samus's Uair should have the AC and hitbox frames overlap. The move has a huge autocancel window. Lucas's Bair I believe has the overlap as well. If you SHFF it so that you get a single hexagon it will autocancel and is lenient up to about two hexagons. Allow more hexagons and the move will not autocancel correctly because the ending autocancel window is small. Wouldn't this mean that the begining AC frames and hit frames are overlapping? I'm pretty sure this applies to most of these atleast if I tested them right. Not sure what I was thinking with Luigi's aerials cuz I was way off. Sorry if I'm confused about what you're talking about.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

The easiest way to tell the difference between an auto cancel and a lagless aerial: try to jump before landing. If there's simply no lag because the attack is over, you should be able to jump.

Lucas' b-air doesn't auto cancel (usefully) but his n-air does. AND Ganon's d-air, b-air, u-air. N-air, not significantly, but it still does. In Melee, there was only one aerial that had no auto cancel windows at all. The question to ask isn't which attacks can be auto canceled, it's which ones can be auto canceled usefully.

Samus' u-air does have rather large auto cancel windows, but she doesn't need them. You'd lose more advantage by having to end the attack above the ground than by just landing during the hits.

 

[Tyr_03]

^^^
Umm join the masses of people who don't understand the thread.

 

[SuperDoodleMan]

If this thread is about documenting ONLY the pre-hitbox auto cancel, then I definitely don't understand this thread. It seems completely pointless. Just what is this thread trying to do?

 

[Earthbound360]

Like I said Tyr

Make a bigger notice on the first post with bigger fonts so people read it and realize that autocancel is NOT finishing an aerial before ou hit the ground. All of these Ganon people are starting to annoy me.

 

[Krayn]

Very useful. Thank you for your time on this.

 

[FooXero]

Ganon's down air?
Hold down on the control stick and drag your finger across y then a. You should be able to do this repeatedly with no lag.
It's called Thunder storming I believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyZUlALAArc

 

[Earthbound360]

Ganon's down air?
Hold down on the control stick and drag your finger across y then a. You should be able to do this repeatedly with no lag.
It's called Thunder storming I believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyZUlALAArc

*facepalm*
Tyr, do what I've been saying to stop posts like these.

 

[krehz]

cool post

 

[FooXero]

Uhm... Earthbound check your PM I'm sure you got it and I honestly would like to know what's wrong with Ganon's dair.

 

[losvedir]

Okay, so I'm confused here. Magus's posts are excellent and I think I see what he's saying, but I'm confused about what Tyr is saying. I think there's a crucial missing distinction about whether the aerials can be autocancelled (usefully) at the beginning or at the end. Maybe a graphical example is in order. Suppose I hit A in the air, then there's a start-up animation time, a period where I can actually do damage, and then an ending animation, right? So something like this:

A: -----------xxxxxxxxxxxxxx--------

Where time increases to the right, the -'s are the starting and ending animations, and the x's are the part where the attack can do damage. Now I'm going to add a | to the picture. The | represents the character landing and having the same sort of lag as if you had just jumped and not done an attack at all. Obviously, this is the case for EVERY character, and EVERY move:

A: | ----------xxxxxxxxxxxxxx--------- |

What I mean by that is if you land either before you hit A at all, or after the move COMPLETELY finishes, then there's no lag. It is SOMETIMES the case, with some characters and certain moves that you can land DURING the animation and still have the same lag as if you hadn't done a move at all:

A: ----|-----xxxxxxxxxxxxxx-----|-----

Above, look at the second of the two |'s. This means the move would still ordinarily be happening if you were still in the air. However, you've landed early. Still, there's no extra lag. Note carefully the distinction between:

. . . -----| vs. . . . ----|----

The former is nothing special at all. It's just the move ending in the air so of course there's no lag. The latter the move is "autocancelled" if I'm understanding the terminology of the thread correctly. Also, look at the first of the two |'s. This is clear. If you jump and you hit A just before you land, the move may cancel before any hitbox comes out at all.

The interesting thing is what Magus brought up. Are there characters with any moves that match this profile:

A: -----------xxx|xxxxxxxxx--------|

In this case, you land early, cutting off most of the hitbox. However, the hitbox is out for SOME of the time before the landing. And then you land and there's no lag! Is this the case for any character or any move?

So, Tyr, did you understand any of that? Maybe I can try to clarify. Is your list, the characters and moves that have " ----|---" endings? What about the beginnings?

Thanks.

 

[Tyser]

ganon's Down Air?
Hold Down On The Control Stick And Drag Your Finger Across Y Then A. You Should Be Able To Do This Repeatedly With No Lag.
It's Called Thunder Storming I Believe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzulalaarc

Hahahahaha!

 

[Xx GuNz xX]

I'm not sure if this has been corrected, but all of Falcon's aerials can be autocancelled if you do them fast enough.

 

[0RLY]

This is a technique some of us have been doing for a while now, possibly without even realizing it. Hopefully I can explain it a little better and it can possibly see some wider use. This is not the same as regular auto lag cancelling aerials in which the move has ended before the character lands.

Autocancelling is when an aerial's animation is canceled at a certain point in its duration by touching the ground. This puts the character into their neutral standing position out of which any move can be done. This is usually during the begining of the aerial's animation although the time window is slightly different for each.

It doesn't work with some aerials for one of two reasons:
1. The move's hitbox does not come out before it autcancels on the ground.
2. The move has a specific landing animation that overrides the cancel.

This is a list of all aerials that the hitbox will come out and still have the move be cancelled this way.

... big list here ...

I'm sure there will be a good amount of controversy over some of these because of how precise some of the testing has to be. Some aerials have so little lag even when not autocancelled that it is hard to notice the difference. However if you jab immediately after both, the autocancelled one will come out noticably faster.

If I have made any errors please feel free to tell me about it. I'm by no means an expert with every character so it's pretty likely that I made a mistake or two.

Oh and Tyr, here are some other moves you missed:

Mario
Uair, Nair, Bair

DK
Bair (If bair is lagless, then so is nair... but I think neither are lagless)

Link
Bair, Fair, Nair, Zair

Samus
Bair, Fair, Nair, Uair, Dair, Zair

Kirby
Uair, Nair, Bair

Fox
Nair, Dair

Pikachu
None Fair, Uair

Marth
Uair, Nair, Fair

Game and Watch
Bair, Nair, Uair

Luigi
NoneNair, Uair, (his fair might because it seems to have IASA frames)

Diddy
Bair, Nair

Zelda
Nair

Sheik
Fair, Bair, Nair

Pit
None

Metaknight
Fair, Bair (fair and bair only if you land before all 3 slashes come out), Uair, Nair

Falco
Bair, Dair, Nair

Squirtle
Fair, Bair, Nair, Uair

Ivysaur
Bair, Nair

Charizard
None

Ike
Nair

Snake
None

Peach
Fair, Uair, Bair, Nair, Dair

Yoshi
Bair, Nair, Uair

Ganondorf
None

Ice Climbers
Nair

King Dedede
None Nair

Wolf
Bair, Uair, Nair

Lucario
Nair, Dair (It's impossible to land on the ground with this)

Ness
Fair, Bair, Uair, Nair

Sonic
Bair, Uair

Bowser
None

Wario
Uair, Nair (It doesn't look like it, but the lag frames have IASA frames)

Toon Link
Bair, Zair

ROB
Bair, Nair

Olimar
Fair, Bair, Nair

Captain Falcon
Uair, Nair

Jigglypuff
Bair, Uair, Fair, Nair

Lucas
Bair (only if you land before all 3 hitboxes come out), Uair, Nair, Zair

Zero Suit Samus
Uair, Bair, Nair

 

[Tyr_03]

0RLy: I know for a fact a lot of those are incorrect such as Lucas's Nair (because he's my main) and several others. Also I didn't include Zairs because they're not standard aerials (and Lucas's doesn't even have a hitbox.) I really don't care enough anymore to test the others because a lot of them I've tested like 20 times such as Dedede's Nair and Wario's Nair neither of which autocancel. As for all of you who still don't understand this thread, just read it again. Or don't. I don't care anymore.

 

[BrawlBro]

has there been anydiscussion on diddys fair? I didnt read through all the pages. I know im a criminal.

it might just be one of those hard to tell ones, probably the case/ But anyways I can shorthop and use one and land with what appears to be no lag, so is any1 sure on this?

 

[luminoth]

I think we should pay attention on what losvedir posted on the previous page. People are claiming to autocancel aerials when in fact the attack itself never started. I mean the animation just starts and then, before any hitboxes are there to inflict damage, you land and then there's is no lag. This is useless. It's ******** technique. The application is almost inexistent.

Also there are some idiots that don't understand that finishing an aerial before landing is not cancel at all. Let's forget about these people already. They took enough of our times.

Some other guys are fast falling and experiencing lag but are claiming to diminish lag time of the landing. No. This does not happen. It's you hoping to have discovered something important. And supposing the lag is diminished at all, it's as hardly noticeable as it's hardly applicable.

So we need to focus on attacks that can have their lag canceled after or during hitboxes. Anything else is useless.

 

[Sylvan]

Wolf's forward air can be canceled.

If you want I can take a vid, but there a big difference in lag times. I personally find it a very useful move.

 

[Samuelson]

This list will be very helpful in the future.

 

[arrex]

links z-air is autocancelled while landing

 

[Razmakazi]

ganon's dair. ;o

 

[ShortFuse]

Auto-Cancelling isn't just for attacking. In MANY cases, Auto Cancelling is faster/safer than teching. This list should be updated with the B moves. For my Fox, instead of teching, I usually neutB (blaster) instead of teching.

 

[PEEF!]

Okay, so I'm confused here. Magus's posts are excellent and I think I see what he's saying, but I'm confused about what Tyr is saying. I think there's a crucial missing distinction about whether the aerials can be autocancelled (usefully) at the beginning or at the end. Maybe a graphical example is in order. Suppose I hit A in the air, then there's a start-up animation time, a period where I can actually do damage, and then an ending animation, right? So something like this:

A: -----------xxxxxxxxxxxxxx--------

Where time increases to the right, the -'s are the starting and ending animations, and the x's are the part where the attack can do damage. Now I'm going to add a | to the picture. The | represents the character landing and having the same sort of lag as if you had just jumped and not done an attack at all. Obviously, this is the case for EVERY character, and EVERY move:

A: | ----------xxxxxxxxxxxxxx--------- |

What I mean by that is if you land either before you hit A at all, or after the move COMPLETELY finishes, then there's no lag. It is SOMETIMES the case, with some characters and certain moves that you can land DURING the animation and still have the same lag as if you hadn't done a move at all:

A: ----|-----xxxxxxxxxxxxxx-----|-----

Above, look at the second of the two |'s. This means the move would still ordinarily be happening if you were still in the air. However, you've landed early. Still, there's no extra lag. Note carefully the distinction between:

. . . -----| vs. . . . ----|----

The former is nothing special at all. It's just the move ending in the air so of course there's no lag. The latter the move is "autocancelled" if I'm understanding the terminology of the thread correctly. Also, look at the first of the two |'s. This is clear. If you jump and you hit A just before you land, the move may cancel before any hitbox comes out at all.

The interesting thing is what Magus brought up. Are there characters with any moves that match this profile:

A: -----------xxx|xxxxxxxxx--------|

In this case, you land early, cutting off most of the hitbox. However, the hitbox is out for SOME of the time before the landing. And then you land and there's no lag! Is this the case for any character or any move?

So, Tyr, did you understand any of that? Maybe I can try to clarify. Is your list, the characters and moves that have " ----|---" endings? What about the beginnings?

Thanks.

I completely understand what hes saying, and someone needs to answer this!

 

[ComboTurtle]

i havent read the rest of this thread, but the definition of auto cancelling from melee was when u land after the move is completed to remove the lag, so the way u say that auto cancelling is landing during certain frames of an aerial and receiving less lag is confusing and the name should be changed from auto cancelling to some other **** brawl technique that no one cares about because brawl is for tards that never had enough tech skill or patience to play a real game, k do that now.

 

[Magus420]

i havent read the rest of this thread, but the definition of auto cancelling from melee was when u land after the move is completed to remove the lag, so the way u say that auto cancelling is landing during certain frames of an aerial and receiving less lag is confusing and the name should be changed from auto cancelling to some other **** brawl technique that no one cares about because brawl is for tards that never had enough tech skill or patience to play a real game, k do that now.

That's actually NOT the definition of autocanceling from Melee. If you land after the move is already completed you're not canceling anything, as there's nothing left of the move to cancel. The animation is over. Ironically, the nothing technique you describe is the exact bastardized definition of 'autocanceling' that was made up and became popular after Brawl came out for some stupid reason. Good job.

Auto cancel: <10 30>

Landing during an air attack such that your character goes into their standard landing animation instead of the animation for whatever attack they were doing.

In this case, landing on frame 10 and earlier, or 30 and later will autocancel the move.

 

[Lovage]

YEA BOYS GET SCHOOLED BY SOME MAGUS word?!!!?!?

 

[Raizo]

hmm is captain falcon's DAIR one because i saw a vid on youtube that looked like it was possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyhnF4jZa_Y&NR=1