Qlaw
Smash Cadet
I agree, id love to see this come true
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Balance Patch
- Thread starter ss118
- Start date
DDRKirby(ISQ)
Smash Ace
FWIW, the easiest things to change right now are general character physics (weight, speeds, shield sizes, friction, jumping), and also importantly, the landing lag of all aerials (and empty jump lag as well as jump speed).
Changing moves themselves is possible but AFAIK there isn't any good lookup for where move data is within the character files, so that's a lot trickier (unless you're Magus).
You can look at a "balance" (HEAVY emphasis on the quotes there--you will scoff at some/most of these changes) patch I created here for examples of what is possible. I don't have vids up of it in action, sorry (it's mostly minor changes anyways, besides a few characters).
Changing moves themselves is possible but AFAIK there isn't any good lookup for where move data is within the character files, so that's a lot trickier (unless you're Magus).
You can look at a "balance" (HEAVY emphasis on the quotes there--you will scoff at some/most of these changes) patch I created here for examples of what is possible. I don't have vids up of it in action, sorry (it's mostly minor changes anyways, besides a few characters).
Acryte
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2005
- Messages
- 986
I am also highly interested in making a balance patch version.
Im of the opinion that noone is so good they need to be gimped, but many low tiers need to be buffed. The question is this, would the game be worse if bowser was high tier? The aim should be to make each character high tier but not top tier persay. There is also little reason characters should have useless moves
Im of the opinion that noone is so good they need to be gimped, but many low tiers need to be buffed. The question is this, would the game be worse if bowser was high tier? The aim should be to make each character high tier but not top tier persay. There is also little reason characters should have useless moves
you can change hitbox data rather easily if you download the MasterHand tool which finds the specific hex strings for each hitbox. Just find that in the .dat and change up the data and patch it onto the iso.
Making Kirby's aerial side-b the equivalent of Peach's dsmash in the air and making dash attack a ghetto ganon down-b are amusing to say the least.
Applying the Brawl changes to Zelda's U-air also proved amusing.
not really sure about changing physics. feel of the character is really important, but undoubtably it holds some of them back (zelda why you so sllllooooowwwww)
then there's characters like Gnw who are just inherently horrible and no one is interested enough in developing character editor tools so changing move animations (say Melee GnW Dtilt -> Brawl-sized) is out of the question, as are changing specials, which would help out characters like Ness.
It's interesting that Brawl gave GnW a significant weight boost though (60 -> 75).
Seriously though, even if someone "buffs" the lower echelon to be able to compete with the higher crowd overall (and not catered to specific match-ups or whatever), one will get to the point where the character becomes too "artificial" and doesn't seem to fit into the game. A particular example I had in mind was Brawl+ Bowser. He had an insanely good moveset for the game, but it didn't help him enough on his bad match-ups (spacies) but stratified his less depressing match-ups to lean quite simply in his favor. He wasn't "broken" but it definitely felt forced. When it comes to rebalances, a air of subtlety goes a long way. Now when you're making a game from the get-go, you're not quite limited to that sort of "feeling" of subtlety as the consumer doesn't have that expectation for "in-game realism." I guess this would be P:M.
It's too hard for this (w/e "this" is), even as a pet project for funsies to produce something that is actually "balanced" and not just a hark to an individual(s) "director's" cut.
Also if my last post here is any indication, I guess this thread is gonna go back to sleep for a few months. Unless some of you guys are just morbidly curious about hacking this gem for ****s and giggles as much as I [was].
obv
Making Kirby's aerial side-b the equivalent of Peach's dsmash in the air and making dash attack a ghetto ganon down-b are amusing to say the least.
Applying the Brawl changes to Zelda's U-air also proved amusing.
not really sure about changing physics. feel of the character is really important, but undoubtably it holds some of them back (zelda why you so sllllooooowwwww)
then there's characters like Gnw who are just inherently horrible and no one is interested enough in developing character editor tools so changing move animations (say Melee GnW Dtilt -> Brawl-sized) is out of the question, as are changing specials, which would help out characters like Ness.
It's interesting that Brawl gave GnW a significant weight boost though (60 -> 75).
Seriously though, even if someone "buffs" the lower echelon to be able to compete with the higher crowd overall (and not catered to specific match-ups or whatever), one will get to the point where the character becomes too "artificial" and doesn't seem to fit into the game. A particular example I had in mind was Brawl+ Bowser. He had an insanely good moveset for the game, but it didn't help him enough on his bad match-ups (spacies) but stratified his less depressing match-ups to lean quite simply in his favor. He wasn't "broken" but it definitely felt forced. When it comes to rebalances, a air of subtlety goes a long way. Now when you're making a game from the get-go, you're not quite limited to that sort of "feeling" of subtlety as the consumer doesn't have that expectation for "in-game realism." I guess this would be P:M.
It's too hard for this (w/e "this" is), even as a pet project for funsies to produce something that is actually "balanced" and not just a hark to an individual(s) "director's" cut.
Also if my last post here is any indication, I guess this thread is gonna go back to sleep for a few months. Unless some of you guys are just morbidly curious about hacking this gem for ****s and giggles as much as I [was].
obv
Mr.Jackpot
Smash Lord
Actually you can do a LOT more than just cut around data but nobody has ever bothered to do it: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10769744&postcount=1886&fb_source=message
Funny you should mention it now because me my friend were thinking about doing something like this for a week now. The amount of editing you can do is a lot more diverse than most people think, but still not as diverse as what would be nice for a real balance patch. We're not exactly sure what kind of approach (bBrawl style tweaks?, Brawl- style tweaks?, both?) we should take to it but we're definitely thinking going in the Project M "buffs only" direction. Nothing's really set in stone of course we might just end up making a "lol Melee- hax" if it ends up too hard.
Funny you should mention it now because me my friend were thinking about doing something like this for a week now. The amount of editing you can do is a lot more diverse than most people think, but still not as diverse as what would be nice for a real balance patch. We're not exactly sure what kind of approach (bBrawl style tweaks?, Brawl- style tweaks?, both?) we should take to it but we're definitely thinking going in the Project M "buffs only" direction. Nothing's really set in stone of course we might just end up making a "lol Melee- hax" if it ends up too hard.
Brawl's hitbox data isn't structured the same way as Melee's so yes I did refer to that guide a lot. Also If I did c/p hitbox data the offsets for hitboxes would be whack as they're also attached to specific bones.
I was saying hitbox modification isn't enough for some moves (or whole characters) for a serious rebalance.
Now if it is going to be a "minus" sort of approach then one isn't limited by principle but limited by technology. You can't add events to moves easily or edit move animations or edit Specials (only the few sub-actions specials may call forth), but one can modify a character's Attributes, existing hitboxes, hitbox duration start-up/frames, move IASA frames, etc.
If no one is getting hit by the nerf bat, one has to compensate the low tiers with much. Functionally speaking, outside of their gimmicks, the low extreme is playing a different game from the high extreme. But I don't believe one could make Kirby compete with Fox on an even plane without making Kirby look out of place with respect to the game's entirety.
I would love to be proven wrong though.
I was saying hitbox modification isn't enough for some moves (or whole characters) for a serious rebalance.
Now if it is going to be a "minus" sort of approach then one isn't limited by principle but limited by technology. You can't add events to moves easily or edit move animations or edit Specials (only the few sub-actions specials may call forth), but one can modify a character's Attributes, existing hitboxes, hitbox duration start-up/frames, move IASA frames, etc.
If no one is getting hit by the nerf bat, one has to compensate the low tiers with much. Functionally speaking, outside of their gimmicks, the low extreme is playing a different game from the high extreme. But I don't believe one could make Kirby compete with Fox on an even plane without making Kirby look out of place with respect to the game's entirety.
I would love to be proven wrong though.
DDRKirby(ISQ)
Smash Ace
I was completely unaware of that tool, and am looking at it now. Thanks for the heads up! This lets me mess around a lot more.
I agree with you that it's generally unfeasible to create anything more than something catered towards whatever your personal whims are (which is what i'm doing ;P).
Nopfed
Smash Rookie
samus's f-smash is pretty strong... but unless i'm thinking of strong in a different sense than you are. it can already easily send people flying horizontally (when they are at high percents), so unless you were talking about the actual damage, I'm not too sure about what the amount or compared ratio is to other f-smashes.
i've heard a lot that doc "has the second worst recovery" and that might be somewhat true, but he definitely has the the tools for recovering (cape stall, tornado mashing, up-b is just god-like), so maybe if those specifically got buffed it would help him out.
for kirby, if you could bring back the way he worked in 64 he'd be a lot better. i really miss the way he worked.
Gea
Smash Master
Nopfed, let me put it this way. If Doc walltechjumps and doesn't immediately up + B he pretty much can't make it back. His recovery is really only second to Roy's. Any decent character can gimp him pretty easily.
Nopfed
Smash Rookie
he could walljump tech and then pivot the cape also. plus he has magic hands, and you usually want to up-b so that the end of the height just makes it to the ledge (like everyone usually), but if you're talking about someone chasing you down with a spike (marth, falco, fox) and let's say on yoshi story, yeah you can tech and then immediately up-b, but that will get you up there faster than they can make it back unless they still have their second jump to use. and you're probably going to be higher than them.
so unless youre actually talking about like final D. and teching falco/fox down smash, you can just either drop and up b back or pivot cape and drop and up b. the heights and times vary for what they decide to try and do next.
and you can also get really creative as a mind game and use the tornado mash stuff for a little extra height.
so unless youre actually talking about like final D. and teching falco/fox down smash, you can just either drop and up b back or pivot cape and drop and up b. the heights and times vary for what they decide to try and do next.
and you can also get really creative as a mind game and use the tornado mash stuff for a little extra height.
bump lump interest check
In all seriousness, if someone were to release a work-in-progress balance patch for the sake of playtesting and feedback, how many people would try it? More importantly, how many people with the patience and game knowledge required to provide meaningful feedback would be willing to try it?
I ask this because with diosmioslite having the ability to run games off purely extracted files, it's now VERY easy to add hacks to games...
In all seriousness, if someone were to release a work-in-progress balance patch for the sake of playtesting and feedback, how many people would try it? More importantly, how many people with the patience and game knowledge required to provide meaningful feedback would be willing to try it?
I ask this because with diosmioslite having the ability to run games off purely extracted files, it's now VERY easy to add hacks to games...
ViperGold42
Smash Lord
Lovage
Smash Hero
lol, a hacked melee balance patch will obv. never compete with melee or threaten melee or w/e, sounds like a fun sideproject esp. for low tier players
havn't read any of this thread btw, but just wanna say if ur trying to balance melee do it with buffs not nerfs or absolutely 0 people will play it
havn't read any of this thread btw, but just wanna say if ur trying to balance melee do it with buffs not nerfs or absolutely 0 people will play it
phish-it
Smash Champion
I've been working on this project on my own and it's coming along pretty well. Every character below Peach on the Tier list has had buffs in some way or another, no nerfing. Someone needs to lend me a Hacked Wii so I can play backup GC games and actually test it regularly. I'd like to actually bring it to tournaments for fun once it's refined enough.
I've also been working on a 'balance patch' with no nerfs and only buffs (although NTSC Sheik always makes one give a second thought to this). LOL.
Brought it to a tournament last weekend and people enjoyed it. The only bad thing is animations can't be edited yet, so some frame changes are still unfeasible. I'm essentially done and need extensive feedback.
And yeah, some people are being too alarmist about 'patches.' Brawl has been hacked nearly to death and the game is honestly of questionable merit, but the most popular Smash game is still...
Brought it to a tournament last weekend and people enjoyed it. The only bad thing is animations can't be edited yet, so some frame changes are still unfeasible. I'm essentially done and need extensive feedback.
And yeah, some people are being too alarmist about 'patches.' Brawl has been hacked nearly to death and the game is honestly of questionable merit, but the most popular Smash game is still...
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
NTSC Sheik isn't that good compared to the rest of top tier.
I agree with this revised statment
Anth0ny
Smash Master
Now that we can run GC isos off SD cards, I'd love to see this come to fruition. Many more people will be able to enjoy it, and we won't have to waste a DVD every time there's an update.
It seems a lot easier than Brawl hacks, honestly. The physics and **** are all perfect, it's just a matter of Kirby doing more damage, Mewtwo being heavier, and tweaks here and there to all the non top 8 characters.
It seems a lot easier than Brawl hacks, honestly. The physics and **** are all perfect, it's just a matter of Kirby doing more damage, Mewtwo being heavier, and tweaks here and there to all the non top 8 characters.
phish-it
Smash Champion
How do you play melee Iso's off the SD card?
Ripple
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I hate to say it but we're probably going to have to nerf some aspects of the top tiers. such as changing (READ: not completely removing) sheiks chaingrab on people. but giving her something else as a buff.
this is just me but in exchange for making fox's up-smash and up-air do 1 less% (will kill 10-15% later on everyone) I would make up-air unSDIable.
this is just me but in exchange for making fox's up-smash and up-air do 1 less% (will kill 10-15% later on everyone) I would make up-air unSDIable.
phish-it
Smash Champion
Even though toning down some overpowered aspects of characters might be better for the integrity of the game, and closer to true balance, It'd better be suited for Project M. I feel like many people would be off put by nerfs and not actually want to play.
I'm a hypocrite because I say this, but I actually kind of want to do it.
Like for example, Fox and Falco may be better characters overall than Peach, but buffing Peach without toning down some of her more broken attributes would be overkill. Because, in the long run, the game would probably be better if everyone was brought to the level of 'balanced' Fox, rather than 'broken' NTSC Fox.
Also in order to make Foxes Up-air, not SDI'able it would have to be only one strong hit.
I'm a hypocrite because I say this, but I actually kind of want to do it.
Like for example, Fox and Falco may be better characters overall than Peach, but buffing Peach without toning down some of her more broken attributes would be overkill. Because, in the long run, the game would probably be better if everyone was brought to the level of 'balanced' Fox, rather than 'broken' NTSC Fox.
Also in order to make Foxes Up-air, not SDI'able it would have to be only one strong hit.
Ripple
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not true, each move in the game has a SDI multiplier attribute. we can edit that first hit of upair down to 0 so it is literally impossible to SDI
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
I don't think melee has an SDI multiplier. I know brawl does.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
What made Zelda's F-smash non-SDI-Able in Melee 1.0?
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Watch AnDaLe play against Sheik.....Puff is scary.
Also, Fox already has an aerial you cant SDI
It's called Forbidden Smash DI.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,545
for the record Melee hitboxes do not have SDI multipliers
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
It was a global mechanic change of being unable to SDI hits that did less than 1%.
Ripple
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He destroyed you because he's a better player and because puff beats sheik in the match up. sheik is by no means bad compared to other top tiers.
what move can't you SDI? up-air and dair can clearly be SDId. that leaves nair Fair and bair. and why can't you SDI those?
WHAT?! why are melee an brawl so different? so how do different moves have different SDI amounts? is it scaled with damage?
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
I was led to believe that you could not SDI Fox Dair while in the air.
Comparing Sheik is easy
Fox vs Sheik -Advantage Fox
Falco vs Sheik -Advantage Falco
Puff vs Sheik -Advantage Puff.
Comparing Sheik is easy
Fox vs Sheik -Advantage Fox
Falco vs Sheik -Advantage Falco
Puff vs Sheik -Advantage Puff.
Ripple
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IDK why you couldn't SDI that in the air if you can on the ground.
also according to M2K sheik beats fox now
and I think KK said sheik vs falco is even
Yup, because hitlag scales with damage.
Anth0ny
Smash Master
The top tiers do not need to be nerfed. At all.
Buffing the low tiers effectively nerfs the high tiers.
Buffing the low tiers effectively nerfs the high tiers.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=60218&
Forbidden Smash DI :
If you are on the ground and are hit by a non-techable move that sends you horizontally or downwards, you won't be able to Smash DI up.
I call this Forbidden Smash DI. It would in fact be broken because you would take the hit airborne, you would land on the ground without any stun.
The developpers saw this and prevented that from happening.
Forbidden Smash DI makes sure you stay stunned on the ground when you're hit by Fox's Aerial Down A, Fox's shine or any other relatively weak hit nailing you into the ground.
I got mixed up a little, but my original statement holds to be half true.
If people honestly think Fox's Up smash and Falco's D-air are balanced then I don't know what to think anymore.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
Balancing them will change their entire playstyle, besides if other characters are just as broken then those moves instantly become 100% essential.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
You could at least give fox his PAL up smash. 
This is a balance patch, so of course it's going to change characters' playstyles. We're going for a completely balanced game, not a game that just buffs low tiers; besides, the high tiers are at the top because they aren't balanced to begin with. What needs to happen is the high tiers need to be nerfed and the low tiers need to be buffed, creating an overall more balanced game.
Some suggestions I have are:
-Nerfing Fox's Up-smash knockback
-Nerfing Falcon's knee start and ending lag (3 frames max)
-Giving Falco his PAL D-air and slightly nerfing the knockback
-Speeding up Yoshi's standing grab and letting him jump out of shield
-Give Yoshi his PAL weight, Up-smash, and F-smash
-Make Kirby a little faster and make his forward and back throws unescapable
-Give Kirby his Brawl side-B in the air and increase the knockback of his standing side-B
-Give Sheik her PAL down throw
-Make G&W's shield completely cover him longer, and make all of his aerials L-cancelable
-Make Bowser like he is in Project: M
-Give Luigi's Up-B horizontal recovery and increase the knockback of the fire sweetspot, both on the ground and in the air
-Increase the horizontal and vertical distance that Mario's and Dr. Mario's Up-B travels
-Increase the strength of Roy's sour spots and reduce their hitboxes' length
-Very slightly reduce the knockback of Jigglypuff's Rest and very slightly shorten the hitbox of her B-air
Some suggestions I have are:
-Nerfing Fox's Up-smash knockback
-Nerfing Falcon's knee start and ending lag (3 frames max)
-Giving Falco his PAL D-air and slightly nerfing the knockback
-Speeding up Yoshi's standing grab and letting him jump out of shield
-Give Yoshi his PAL weight, Up-smash, and F-smash
-Make Kirby a little faster and make his forward and back throws unescapable
-Give Kirby his Brawl side-B in the air and increase the knockback of his standing side-B
-Give Sheik her PAL down throw
-Make G&W's shield completely cover him longer, and make all of his aerials L-cancelable
-Make Bowser like he is in Project: M
-Give Luigi's Up-B horizontal recovery and increase the knockback of the fire sweetspot, both on the ground and in the air
-Increase the horizontal and vertical distance that Mario's and Dr. Mario's Up-B travels
-Increase the strength of Roy's sour spots and reduce their hitboxes' length
-Very slightly reduce the knockback of Jigglypuff's Rest and very slightly shorten the hitbox of her B-air