Balanced Brawl Standard Release

[Amazing Ampharos]

I am very happy with the concept of BBrawl and the results that have been achieved in its first release. However, there are some things that don't make sense in BBrawl (and/or regular Brawl) that I think should be addressed.

Metaknight: I think that you guys went too far in nerfing his tornado. As it is, it is very difficult to get a useful amount of damage out of it because the opponent gets out way too fast. I think that the tornado should suck opponents in, but it should be weak enough that even heavyweights can DI out of it.

Jigglypuff: I think that Jigglypuff's sing should be buffed. I don't believe this because I think Jigglypuff necessarily needs the help in matchups; instead I think that it should be buffed because Sing is a central component of Jigglypuff's character in the pokemon series. I also think it is a ludicrous that jigglypuff has been in all 3 smash games and sing's excessive flaws still haven't been addressed. Although there are many ways to make sing useful, there is one method in particular that should be considered. Sing consists of three individual pulses. As it is now the opponent needs to be at over 150% in order to get frame advantage when hitting the opponent with the first pulse. Fixing sing could be done by letting Jigglypuff cancel the sing inbetween pulses with jumping, shielding, smashing, etc.

Pit: One of the things that make Pit unique is his Wings of Icarius. It allows him to follow an opponent and presents the opportunity for mindgames unavailable to other characters. One thing that limits its use and doesn't make sense is that if Pit cancels it with an attack or gets hit not only is he unable to use it again, but he loses all of the 3 mid-air jumps he hasn't used. Instead of doing things this way, should Pit cancel the move or get hit I think that he should be unable to use WoI again, but not lose the mid-air jumps he hasn't used. I am aware of the fact that touching the ground after initiating WoI gives him his jumps after its use, however I argue that the need to be that close to the ground limits the move's potential too much.

DK: It makes no sense to me that using his neutral B puts him in a fall state. In all of the smash bros. games only recovery moves are supposed to put a character in a fall state. It makes no sense for this move to do so. Out of curiosity, could you explain why you altered the knockback of his down cargo throw?

Falcon: I disagree with the changes you have made to Falcon Kick. Although I greatly appreciate the move being safe on hit, I think that following up on it isn't reliable enough to be useful like raptor boost, upthrow, and down tilt are because it has too much end lag and it has too much knockback. I think that it should be a kill move at high percents while being safe on hit at any percent. Also, I think that Falcon Punch (and Ganon's warlock punch) need super armor on the last 10-20 frames to compensate for their enormous startup lag.

Samus: It seems to me that upthrow and downthrow hit the opponent too high to be useful for followups. As they are now the opponent is sent so high that only upair can reach them which has too little priority to compete with most characters down airs. It also doesn't make practical sense that both moves have almost identical knockbacks.

It also makes no sense that some jab combs (zss, samus, etc.) have such low hitstun that they can be shieldgrabbed. I think that definately needs fixing.

Please understand that I am not trying to be critical, but I feel that these things should be addressed. I am grateful for the extensive time and effort AA, Thinkman, and others have put in to make this work. I have spent a lot of time playing BBrawl and look forward to the advancement of the metagame and the growth of the BBrawl community. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.

Thank you for the feedback; let's get to addressing the specific issues you are bringing up, shall we?

Meta Knight Mach Tornado: This move in standard Brawl is one of the biggest reasons Meta Knight is so good (a big statement because Meta Knight has a whole lot of things good about him). When using it, Meta Knight is hugely mobile, has totally ridiculous priority that a lot of characters (Captain Falcon and Sonic are good examples) have a pretty ridiculous time challenging, does lots of damage and shield pressure, is ridiculous against ceilings (Luigi's Mansion and Skyworld are the two most obvious cases), and generally just does horrible things to the biggest and heaviest of characters (King Dedede, Donkey Kong, Charizard, Bowser). Oh yeah, and it is also a viable recovery move and if used correctly has almost no ending lag so it's pretty safe. In certain circumstances it can even drag opponents off the top of the screen for a kill! Something has to give here; we decided to focus on the damgae output. Now it is indeed incredibly poor at doing damage, but Meta Knight has a ton of ways to do damage effectively anyway so he doesn't miss that too much. He still gets the mobility option, recovery option, shield pressure, and safety that Mach Tornado provides; he just has to be more conservative with it (and the idea of "just mash B to win with Meta Knight is beyond dead). This change is extremely depolarizing as well; the huge characters and the low priority characters no longer have to scratch their heads about what to do. A few stages get more fair as an added bonus even.

Also, another factor to consider is that Mach Tornado hits a huge number of times for pretty low damage. If it sucks in, it will always have huge damage potential, and reducing the damage it does in what ways we can would have a mixed effect as it would become harder to SDI due to decreased hitlag. We actually tried a lot of versions of this move in internal testing, and we're pretty confident in the quality of this one.

Jigglypuff's Sing: There are two issues with your suggestions. The first is that a lot of them would be very difficult to implement and would be pretty radical changes (giving characters new ways to cancel moves is a fairly wild suggestion for the standards of this project). The second, and more important, issue is that Sing is really just a very poorly designed move on Sakurai's part, and it's hard to see how it can fit into a balanced game. Remember that when Sing is giving Jigglypuff an advantage, she basically gets whatever she wants which is likely Rest. That's really powerful, and it seems like a bad idea to have a move that is "land any of your moves you want" since that just doubles her ways to land every move. There's also a sneaky "advanced technique" with Sing whereby you time a Sing pulse to be "meaty" on someone waking up from being asleep (fighting game slang for "have the hitbox on top of them on their first vulnerable frame"). This puts them back to sleep, and it's completely unavoidable (better than melee and smash 64 where you could put sleeping opponents into a fresh sleeping state at least!). Yeah, that's an infinite stall that would be really ridiculous to fix, but as it stands, it's so obscure and difficult to pull off due to how weak Sing is that we don't really need to worry about it much. If Sing were suddenly a good move, it would be a sudden issue.

Also, Sing just doesn't fit into Jigglypuff's gameplay well at all. She is an aerial specialist. Sing causes her to fall really far, and it doesn't work on airborne opponents. Buffing bad moves is great, but sometimes, those bad moves are bad just because they go against the grain of the character as a whole. Sing is such a case.

Also, for a trivial aside, I consider all Pokemon characters to be based off the games since Smash Bros is about game characters, not that sucky anime. Sing is rather unreliable in Pokemon; I think it carrying over like that is pretty faithful.

Pit: I know this is Brawl where everyone can fly, but I think the design idea here is that Pit needs some real limitation on his recovery. Pit has a ridiculously good recovery, but he has to be really smart about his use of the Wings of Icarus since he instantly becomes gimpable when he uses it. It still has a lot of the use you describe of course; you can chase people above the stage with it very effectively, just not off to the sides (which is a fairly similar idea to Mr. Game & Watch's Fire, though with many notable differences of course).

I think there are some code limits here too. I suspect the main reason Sakurai made it work this way was to prevent Pit from gliding after using Wings of Icarus. Notice that Meta Knight ends up similarly stripped from using Shuttle Loop; given how amazing gliding is, I can see the balance idea here. However, unlike Meta Knight, Pit can cancel his up special into other attacks, meaning it's not reliable that he ends the process in helpless fall state (actually, unless the Pit is incompetent, he won't). That means he needs a special variable to prevent him from using his up special infinitely in the air (most characters could if the up specials didn't put them in helpless). That added flexibility probably is the reason he ends up with nothing at all after getting hit, though that's probably design on that point (Lucario, Snake, and Mr. Game & Watch can up special again after being hit just fine). It is definitely the case that if the Wings of Icarus worked as you described it would be a pretty big buff to Pit (who is already pretty good as far as I can tell) and would make his recovery basically unstoppable.

Donkey Kong: Two questions here; let's start with Giant Punch. For one, the statement that it's only recovery moves isn't true (Pk Flash/Pk Freeze is another example). Looking at this move though, I can really see why it is this way. Basically, think of DK's Giant Punch as fsmash with potential super armor, and DK has a REALLY powerful fsmash. Imagine for a second him using this off-stage; a 9-wind or max punch is going to kill the entire cast stupidly low (at basically any percentage you can get them off-stage) and isn't even that hard to land. The balancing factor here is that it's a total suicide move because of the helpless; that pretty much just nips that tactic in the bud. I don't think it would really help the game for DK to have that tactic either; DK is already extremely powerful at killing outright, and his off-stage game already has the benefit of three meteors. I don't think he needs another trick to kill really low...

As per the down cargo throw, that's an easy one. In standard Brawl, DK's down cargo throw into a wall comboed into his down tilt lock. Notice his down tilt lock racks damage high enough to guarantee the sweetspotted dsmash it comboes into will kill. So DK could grab you, walk over to a wall, and proceed to do a 0-death which is way too similar to what King Dedede used to be able to do for my tastes. As a part of a general move to make walls more fair, this was changed so that doesn't work anymore. Granted, DK still has the dtilt lock and even the combo into fatal dsmash, but now he has to land the dtilt lock cold which is a very hard thing to do against a competent opponent trying to avoid it; he can't ever land it from anything that isn't a hit against an opponent who was already next to the wall (which means they were standing in that risky situation by choice). Also, as an added benefit, I think in terms of non-wall abuse situations, the down cargo throw is a little more useful to DK now since it gets the opponents pretty thoroughly out (in any matchups DK wants to play keep-away) and can put people in risky off-stage situations. It's even pretty decent with walk-offs now, but in practice exploiting that factor is way harder and generally less potent than the old wall stuff.

Captain Falcon: It depends on when in the move you hit really; hitting with the later parts of the hitbox gives you great position. Even if not, the position it gives you is hardly bad. Really, the main idea here in the first place was that Falcon Kick needed to be a good poke since it's Captain Falcon's most reliable way to put at least average priority in the opponent's face (jab is his only other option at all really, and that requires him to already be pretty close). I'm not sure the idea of Falcon Kick killing is a very appealing one when you think about it; it could lead to Captain Falcon's metagame becoming pretty silly with a huge focus on Falcon Kick. While Falcon Kick being a good move was the idea, I'm not sure we want to move in the direction of it becoming his best move.

Also, Falcon Punch and Warlock Punch are really not worth fixing. They aren't important to the design of the relevant characters at all, and moves that slow to hit are going to be terrible no matter how many other good things you put in about them (Warlock Punch, for instance, is a very rare move insofar as it would actually still be bad even if the opponent just vaporized on hit and lost their stock). They could have some teams utility with something like super armor, but Captain Falcon and Ganondorf are already fine in teams I think.

Also, we don't have a general code to add super armor to moves so the implementation of that would be very difficult. Changes to these moves in general were actually discussed, and I know for Warlock Punch we agreed we would make it an instant shield break if we could (to be specific, normal Warlock Punch breaks every full shield except Yoshi's, but reverse Warlock Punch breaks every full shield including Yoshi's) though that would really just be for flavor and not practical anyway. It really became clear looking at these moves that improving them is just not a productive direction to take either relevant character.

Samus: In some matchups, you really want to put the opponent above you as Samus, and I think saying her up aerial loses to "most" down aerials is an overstatement anyway. For instance, I'm just thinking of Samus vs Diddy Kong, and I can see how throwing the opponent as far above you as possible is the best thing there since that puts Diddy Kong in a terrible situation. Also, in your calculation, you seem to have left out Screw Attack; it's a really good move that is definitely worth considering in the situations these throws create. We did want to watch how play with these throws evolved though; it's certainly possible that tweaking will be needed in the future on them. Samus is a pretty hard mark to hit since she was a character who in development pretty adamantly refused to be good (this version of Samus you see now is actually significantly buffed from earlier versions in which she was consistently very underwhelming).

Jab combos. I'm going to be very honest that we didn't look into these carefully; we made DK's jab combo always a combo, but in general we didn't really look through the cast on this one. We did look into the case with Zero Suit Samus; Thinkaman did some location testing with a version that did combo, and it made her really mindless since her frame 1 jab is really, really good already (anything that hits on frame 1 is automatically really, really good as long as it's safe on hit). Basically, players started just spamming jab with Zero Suit Samus and winning; now she had a frame 1 move that was pretty rewarding. There were some ideas to improve her jab3 without making it combo (I liked the idea of making it stun element so it can be a good mix-up move), but in the end, we decided against that direction and just have to suggest Zero Suit Samus only use her jab3 sparingly (it's still a passable situational mix-up). I know some of the other jab combos that "don't combo" actually sometimes combo depending on situation (like you could hit them out of the air); I'm pretty sure Squirtle's is like this.

While I can't say we necessarily have a principle on this one, I do understand the idea that it's intuitively wrong that a jab combo not be a combo; there are cases where balance mandates it remain this way, but in other cases maybe not. Does anyone have a full list of jab combos with "always comboes", "sometimes comboes", and "never comboes" with a list of where in the jab combo the ones that don't always combo fail (like Zero Suit Samus's fails on jab2 -> jab3; jab1 -> jab2 always comboes)? This is definitely an issue worth looking into in more depth before the eventual next release.

To move to the other pressing business. this glitch. It's bizarre and doesn't make sense to me why it exists, but here are a few questions.

1. Is it truly a "guaranteed" kill, or can Link survive on a stage like Mario Bros. (or a custom stage that is an enclosed box!)?
2. Has anyone tried having a third party get hit by Link as he flies away? His flight damage may be fatal as well; remember Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic glitch in melee?
3. Has anyone looked at this in frame by frame? Does Link somehow get hit a bunch of times, or does the hitbox just mysteriously do an insane amount of damage in one hit?
4. What does the end of battle result read as his max launch speed?
5. Are the properties actually identical between Link and Toon Link?

I intend to investigate this one myself at some point when I get a chance, but if anyone knows anything now, it would be useful to post about this stuff. I don't know if this bug will be fixable, though it's definitely minor enough not to worry about too much for now. It's really bizarre; it's hard to think of why it would be this way...

 

[xatm092]

2. Has anyone tried having a third party get hit by Link as he flies away? His flight damage may be fatal as well; remember Mr. Game & Watch's Oil Panic glitch in melee?

Ah, good times

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

One question: Could Game & Watch absorb Kirby Chef sausages in vBrawl?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yes he can, he also could do that in melee iirc

 

[Steeler]

i always thought that falcon punch and warlock punch should be capable of canceling at any point (with an appropriate damage nerf depending on how soon you used it). so it'd be like another smash attack for these characters that'd be usable in the air.

i'm not sure of how good this would be, although aerially it has a lot of potential because you'd basically have to hit them or jump out of the way, an airdodge is just asking to get hit.

 

[Linkshot]

Link and Toon Link are slightly different.

But here's what happens.

In that situation, the buff on the second hit of PK Fire gets radically magnified in both damage and knockback, the damage rising from 8 to 192, and the only hope of Tink surviving being to tether the ledge (it causes him to slide along the floor and get flung off the stage).

Link, if hit from behind, has no hope of surviving. The 8 gets magnified to 63 somehow, and he gets flung at some bizarre 135 degree angle with unbelievable knockback.

However, anytime after this opportunity during the grab for Link only, the 8 gets decreased to 5, and knockback is sponged (he was easily living into the 200s from fresh PK Fires, at the opposite end of FD. I hit him without having him sponge the knockback and it easily KO'd him)

It has to do with the animation of the hookshot hitting the ground and the special properties of Lucas' PK Fire.

For some reason, when the hookshot hits the ground, the first hit of PK Fire seemed to be SA'd, so when the second hit comes out, something in the animation multiplies the direct change to the damage, and as well, the knockback.

To compare, this glitch does not occur in vBrawl nor Brawl+, and PK Fire is unchanged in them.

I was testing with PK Thunder, but only PK Fire has such a unique 2-hit.

To be completely scientific, Training Mode said the combo was two hits, the last hit was 192 damage, and the total damage was 196.

 

[xatm092]

Crazy stuff!

 

[A2ZOMG]

moves that slow to hit are going to be terrible no matter how many other good things you put in about them

Not necessarily true. G&W's Up-smash and Lucario's F-smash are both extremely good moves. You can have an attack that is slow to come out as long as it has a good enough hitbox and very low ending lag.

 

[II Bolt II]

I'm really interested in doing Tournaments with Balenced Brawl for the MD/VA area, I'm just not too sure how the outcome will be. Not many people from around here are aware of Balenced Brawl and the few that I have showed are just very closed minded and would prefer to go with Brawl +, which in my opinion is a "bleh" modification by Melee obsessed players.

I myself enjoy Brawl more than Melee and enjoy what you have done with your update. This game should have been patched earlier for metagame purposes, but that wasn't possible then.

I love the show case and plan on showcasing the 2 videos during one of my next Brawl events to see if I can catch the attentions of others. I am sponsored by a Lan Center, Sage Mantis Game Haven, and plan to hype this to the best of my abilities.

 

[Linkshot]

Lucario fSmash does not take 2 seconds to come out.

 

[NovaRyumaru]

Egg Roll does not induce helpless fall state, and restores double jump

This shoudl have been from the start, so many times have I died because i was trying to mess with their recovery with eggs before going for the spike, but instead inputed too fast and it read EGG ROLL! instead. Q_Q

At least now if it happens it's not a flat out death, but migth sitll be annoying to reover.

Will have to dl this sometime and see how it is, by any chance does BB still support texture edits like Brawl+(my favorite feature easy, black Yoshi ftw)? I like Brawl+ but think the hit stun is a tad too strong, turning it back to the original in terms of 'You get hit and you're screwed.'

*Edit*
Another nice change to Brawl+ I liked was the seperation of pokemon into their seperate characters and removing the stamina factor, thus the ability to play flat out as Charizard if desired without needing to get a grasp on 2 other characters, however basic PT is still selectable as well. Does BB do that or is there the possibility of that being done in future versions?

 

[Linkshot]

Egg Roll momentum brakes; saving you.

Also, yes, it supports File Replacement.

Lone Pokemon (and the lack of Stamina) introduces new characters into the game. It will always be same old Pokemon Trainer.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Not necessarily true. G&W's Up-smash and Lucario's F-smash are both extremely good moves. You can have an attack that is slow to come out as long as it has a good enough hitbox and very low ending lag.

Yes, moves can be slow and good; we agree on that point. I'm just saying there's an upper limit to how many frames a move can take to come out before it stops being useful in all circumstances almost no matter what (the "almost" is thrown in since a screen nuker like Pk Starstorm would still have some use with Warlock Punch start-up). It's about at Ike's fsmash that you hit the line; Ike's fsmash is still a decent move even though it's quite slow (it hits on something like frame 33 if I recall correctly). Slower than that and you get to moves that are too slow to punish almost everything and are also so slow that even players with very poor reaction/consideration abilities can react to it in every situation and decide a way to evade it or even punish it for being used. Like, if Ganondorf starts using Warlock Punch, it's so slow that I can probably finish whatever I was committed to, react to him doing it, and carefully consider an appropriate response that will not involve me getting hit. Falcon Punch isn't quite so bad in the sense that there are enough obscure things it can punish to only make it mostly useless (I think it can punish things like Link's dair landing lag on prediction but not reaction...); Warlock Punch is just way too far on the slow side for almost anything (though we do have a video in the showcase of punishing Sheik's dair on a prediction with it, hilarious).

I'm really interested in doing Tournaments with Balenced Brawl for the MD/VA area, I'm just not too sure how the outcome will be. Not many people from around here are aware of Balenced Brawl and the few that I have showed are just very closed minded and would prefer to go with Brawl +, which in my opinion is a "bleh" modification by Melee obsessed players.

I myself enjoy Brawl more than Melee and enjoy what you have done with your update. This game should have been patched earlier for metagame purposes, but that wasn't possible then.

I love the show case and plan on showcasing the 2 videos during one of my next Brawl events to see if I can catch the attentions of others. I am sponsored by a Lan Center, Sage Mantis Game Haven, and plan to hype this to the best of my abilities.

Sounds excellent; keep us posted on how things turn out.

Egg Roll does not induce helpless fall state, and restores double jump

This shoudl have been from the start, so many times have I died because i was trying to mess with their recovery with eggs before going for the spike, but instead inputed too fast and it read EGG ROLL! instead. Q_Q

At least now if it happens it's not a flat out death, but migth sitll be annoying to reover.

Will have to dl this sometime and see how it is, by any chance does BB still support texture edits like Brawl+(my favorite feature easy, black Yoshi ftw)? I like Brawl+ but think the hit stun is a tad too strong, turning it back to the original in terms of 'You get hit and you're screwed.'

*Edit*
Another nice change to Brawl+ I liked was the seperation of pokemon into their seperate characters and removing the stamina factor, thus the ability to play flat out as Charizard if desired without needing to get a grasp on 2 other characters, however basic PT is still selectable as well. Does BB do that or is there the possibility of that being done in future versions?

Yoshi's new Egg Roll is indeed far more accident-proof, but it has another benefit. You can use Egg Roll for momentum canceling (similar to how Mr. Game & Watch uses Oil Panic for bucket braking), and it enhances Yoshi's survivability.

Textures are supported by the alternate download but not in the tournament standard one. File replacement harms security so it's not proper for serious play, but for friendlies and such it's fine and some players find it fun so we did include a download link so you have your choice.

As per Pokemon Trainer, we did not split him nor offer the option. Pokemon Trainer's core concept is all about teamwork, and all around, it is a far bigger advantage than disadvantage (it's more learning, but the pay-off is huge). Of the 36 characters you could pick, we see 34 with no need to worry about transformation and 2 who do need to worry about it; we want to avoid homogenizing the cast so we are keeping the two transformation-based characters (Zelda & Sheik and Pokemon Trainer) based around that transformation. In the case of Pokemon Trainer especially, it's just way too core to him that it would require a total rethink of everything involved to split him up. For instance, as he stands, Squirtle would need nerfing alone (Squirtle wiht a better water gun and no grab release problems would be blatantly top tier in standard Brawl), but stamina and his role in the team keep him fair. Likewise, Charizard as he stands would probably be bottom tier alone, but the way he works together with his team really enhances him a lot and makes him well balanced. I know a lot of players really dislike transformation mechanics for some reason, but I can say about PT especially that he's now far more satisfying and definitely a good character for winning purposes. All three of his team members are very valuable to him now so you don't have a "I hate transforming because I hate being Ivysaur" factor anymore. He is a lot of work to learn of course; I guess that makes him an "advanced" character. I think it's better this way; balancing him only to be a team and not at all to be individuals let us really emphasize how Pokemon Trainer is something special in this game.

 

[xatm092]

Not necessarily true. G&W's Up-smash and Lucario's F-smash are both extremely good moves.

As is Lucas' Usmash, and Snake's Fsmash does have it's uses ((e.g. turnaround Fsmash after a Dthrow in case they roll behind))

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas U-smash is to make sure people don't f*** with Lucas from above... (yeah, that's right G&W use your key)

 

[A2ZOMG]

As is Lucas' Usmash, and Snake's Fsmash does have it's uses ((e.g. turnaround Fsmash after a Dthrow in case they roll behind))

Both those attacks suck.

Lucas's U-smash is laggy on startup and he's like vulnerable for like an entire second. Even if he hits a shielding opponent, they can just drop shield and do whatever they want to him.

Snake's F-smash sucks slightly less since it has a good charge release, and is fairly safe on block.

Generally speaking, most of my complaints about the balance of BBrawl revolve around ending lag of various moves, since the game revolves around safe + effective pressure and safe KO strategies.

 

[xatm092]

Both those attacks suck.

Lucas's F-smash is laggy on startup and he's like vulnerable for like an entire second. Even if he hits a shielding opponent, they can just drop shield and do whatever they want to him.

If you mix it up a bit, Lucas' Usmash can be used as a good edge guard.

And as RocketPSIence said, it's brilliant against most Dairs.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lucas' Fsmash AND Usmash are both niche moves that I wouldn't say are bad. I think both are good when applied correctly, however the situations to use them are not as common as Fox's Usmash. The only move G&W has that is really not good is Judgment, the rest are either flat out good, or good "but situational". I believe Lucas' Smashes, and Snake's Fsmash falls into the latter.

Now, can someone get a video of this glitch up? I'm highly visual regarding the game, so seeing it without hooking up my wii would be great.

 

[LordshadowRagnarok]

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Mr. Escalator, Judgment has one real purpose: A desperation attack.

 

[xatm092]

Judgment has one real purpose: A desperation attack.

Ugh, it's so evil when a G&W steals a game like that.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas' Fsmash AND Usmash are both niche moves that I wouldn't say are bad. I think both are good when applied correctly, however the situations to use them are not as common as Fox's Usmash. The only move G&W has that is really not good is Judgment, the rest are either flat out good, or good "but situational". I believe Lucas' Smashes, and Snake's Fsmash falls into the latter.

That is exactly why Lucas has a hard time killing, his kill moves are way to situational and when an opponet needs to live longer they can just use the safe moves to avoid these smashes altoghether, his best kill move I would say is his D-smash and his B-air spike is really good now, but it doesn't help with his bad MU's where it's dangerous to go offstage.

I think a great help for the Lucas G&W MU is that the wind hitbox on his aerial up-b to have 1-damage to get people out of their special fall, this would only affect his already great MU's so it would only really help... I just wanted to put this out there for the next release before I forget

 

[Linkshot]

Sorry, MrEsc. I don't have the tools for uploading it.

 

[JOE!]

I wonder how wolf is doing...

He was the *worst good character* in vBrawl, due to him simply being affected by every gay tactic imaginable...

now that those are gone for the most part.....<.<

 

[Linkshot]

I've tried Wolf. He doesn't seem to be anything special.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Everything about Wolf is above average minus his physics and recovery, so he's obviously good. Even though he gets comboed and gimped a lot, that mostly means you need to space better with him.

Lucas' Fsmash AND Usmash are both niche moves that I wouldn't say are bad. I think both are good when applied correctly, however the situations to use them are not as common as Fox's Usmash.

Whoops, I meant U-smash in my original post.

Against people who don't commit to dumb laggy things and actually take the time to observe what Lucas is doing, you really shouldn't be seeing this attack land at all.

If you mix it up a bit, Lucas' Usmash can be used as a good edge guard.

Lol, predicting the ledge jump? Might work against someone like Ganondorf or King DDD. Otherwise edgecamping > that.

Lucas's F-smash is a semi-decent move. It has passable startup and good knockback, but horrible ending lag. Again though, against people who play safely, it's a hard move to land, and he's more likely to get punished for using it.

One move that DEFINITELY needs to be changed is Ness's F-smash. Everything about it except for damage is terrible. The startup sucks. The charge release sucks (powershield on reaction). The range is meh. And the ending lag sucks. If the ending lag didn't suck, it would be a good move.

 

[deepseadiva]

One move that DEFINITELY needs to be changed is Ness's F-smash.

Agreed.

Ness needs help in the killing department.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Agreed.

Ness needs help in the killing department.

Ness doesn't really need more KO moves, since he has B-throw. What he needs is more safe pressure options.

If I recall, shield damage is directly related to damage an attack does on hit. Considering that Ness's F-smash is one of the most damaging moves in the game, what it needs to be is safe on block. Assuming the opponent blocks it, it probably will take a nice chunk out of their shield, which then indirectly opens up new options for poking your opponent's defenses.

The other thing I'm pushing for is PK fire's cooldown reduced. It's another attack that is easy to avoid, and unsafe at midrange most of the time due to how easily it can be powershielded.

 

[Steeler]

lucas usmash has a hitbox under lucas that can hit people on the ledge if they are not invincible. not great but it's something to add to defending ledgejumps.

 

[Linkshot]

@ A2ZOMG: There is actually a modifier for extra shield damage. I've used it in PSA.

 

[xatm092]

Ness' Fsmash range is meh..

Are you kidding? I used my Marth Fsmash on Ness just earlier today, it just missed. He Fsmashed, it hit and killed me o.0

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ness' PK Fire is not supposed to be spamed, it's supposed to be a really good punisher. Reducing ending lag would change the purpose of the move instead it would be like Lucas PK Fire, but if you hit once it becomes a combo machine, especially with the decreased ability to SDI the pillar. It can combo into his really good down throw and on some heavier characters w/o reflectors it combos into another PK Fire and down throw for 50%. His B-Throw is rediculously good, and he doesn't have to worry much about whiffing a grab like Lucas does. Sure he may not have the best grab range but when you compare his throw game to others, it needs to be a short grab range. The problem with Ness is that his recovery is really gimpable. I consider his to be as bad Links in terms as being gimped. People also forget that Ness also has a really good sweetspot back air, an extremely strong d-air and killing u-air. Obviously Ness isn't supposed to be getting kills on the ground but in the air which is why his f-smash doesn't need buffed. Ness is a serious beast in the air, but the only thing that hinders his air game is a terrible 3rd jump recovery.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ness' Fsmash has great, disjointed range. It also has the most damaging single hitbox of any move besides Counter/OilPanic. Plus reflection!

It's not really bad, and landing it is extremely rewarding in terms of damage. Some more shield damage is something I can be behind, however. Maybe like G&W's Fsmash in the ability to shield stab?

 

[JOE!]

hmn, so, who hasnt been discussed here yet?

so far its mainly been like...Ness, Lucas, GW, bowser, zelda/shiek and the ocassional Yoshi comment

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I think it's because we feel that these are the characters who might need changed in the next version. Most of the others seem to be doing great with their buffs and really don't need much discussing because BBrawl plays nearly the same as vBrawl.

lucas usmash has a hitbox under lucas that can hit people on the ledge if they are not invincible. not great but it's something to add to defending ledgejumps.

sure, but it has such terrible start-up lag that a person can see it come do a get-up attack and use the invincibility to avoid the move altogheter.... altogether not recomended

 

[JOE!]

yoshi is discussed in praise mostly...its just i notice those posts more oftne than other chars here...

 

[hyrulianprincesszeldafan]

What I'm concerned with is Zelda's Usmash. Earlier today I was vs various characters, a 1on1, and noticed that Marth, Pit, and Lucario can escape easily out of Zelda's Usmash. As a Zelda player and many others agree, Zelda did get good buff ups, but on attacks such as Usmash which is one of her main attacks, did not get any better. Maybe this was unoticed but I think that her Usmash should be unescapable just like the Fsmash.

 

[Linkshot]

Wait, Lucario escaping Zelda's uSmash?

Shouldn't happen. I'm pretty sure you to SDI out, you have to be hit while FALLING into it.
Otherwise you're ****ed :/

 

[NovaRyumaru]

As per Pokemon Trainer, we did not split him nor offer the option. Pokemon Trainer's core concept is all about teamwork, and all around, it is a far bigger advantage than disadvantage (it's more learning, but the pay-off is huge). Of the 36 characters you could pick, we see 34 with no need to worry about transformation and 2 who do need to worry about it; we want to avoid homogenizing the cast so we are keeping the two transformation-based characters (Zelda & Sheik and Pokemon Trainer) based around that transformation. In the case of Pokemon Trainer especially, it's just way too core to him that it would require a total rethink of everything involved to split him up. For instance, as he stands, Squirtle would need nerfing alone (Squirtle wiht a better water gun and no grab release problems would be blatantly top tier in standard Brawl), but stamina and his role in the team keep him fair. Likewise, Charizard as he stands would probably be bottom tier alone, but the way he works together with his team really enhances him a lot and makes him well balanced. I know a lot of players really dislike transformation mechanics for some reason, but I can say about PT especially that he's now far more satisfying and definitely a good character for winning purposes. All three of his team members are very valuable to him now so you don't have a "I hate transforming because I hate being Ivysaur" factor anymore. He is a lot of work to learn of course; I guess that makes him an "advanced" character. I think it's better this way; balancing him only to be a team and not at all to be individuals let us really emphasize how Pokemon Trainer is something special in this game.

So basically if you want to play him without sucking you need to have a firm grasp on 3 characters that have significantly different fighting styles. Although this is possible I'd much rather main someone like say Yoshi whom doesn't have any gimmicks to his play style other than excellent mobility.

I see the logic in keeping PT as is but imo there should also be the option of playing them as their own individual characters as is in B+. Sure Charizard may be lower tier but doesn't change the fact I enjoy playing as him. Squirtle I also like but I absolutely detest playing as Ivysaur, his play style is way too off for me.

The same logic can be applied to the Shiek/Zelda thing but i really don't care here, even in vBrawl I just poke at them to death or gimp recovery.

But whatever, not my project even though it's a good one.

*Edit*
My appologies if i sounded a bit rude or critical on it but I was just raging, ignore me.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So basically if you want to play him without sucking you need to have a firm grasp on 3 characters that have significantly different fighting styles. Although this is possible I'd much rather main someone like say Yoshi whom doesn't have any gimmicks to his play style other than excellent mobility.

I see the logic in keeping PT as is but imo there should also be the option of playing them as their own individual characters as is in B+. Sure Charizard may be lower tier but doesn't change the fact I enjoy playing as him. Squirtle I also like but I absolutely detest playing as Ivysaur, his play style is way too off for me.

The same logic can be applied to the Shiek/Zelda thing but i really don't care here, even in vBrawl I just poke at them to death or gimp recovery.

But whatever, not my project even though it's a good one.

If you don't like Ivysaur, you don't like Pokemon Trainer. I don't think you're appreciating that on a design level (not a programming one), any Pokemon alone literally does not make sense. Every aspect of every Pokemon is designed around the other two. Squirtle is a crazy berserker who is insanely threatening while he's out and all around just a total monster, but stamina holds him back a lot. Basically, Squirtle assumes he can win big quickly for his team, and countering him means just holding back a storm for a fairly short time. Squirtle without stamina would be able to be a crazy berserker for the whole match; that is just broken. Ivysaur is about zoning and playing slowly though he can get in his huge rewards if the opponent gets sloppy (which is really to say you have to always be alert as he slowplays you since he has massive punishment opportunities). Ivysaur only ever kills when the opponent makes such a mistake; Ivysaur's core design is really only considerate of one kill move: down special. I literally can't imagine how Ivysaur alone would play; it's just a bizarre thought. Charizard kills low and stock tanks. He also can do stupid amounts of damage with Rock Smash which makes the opponent's struggle to kill him even more desperate. If you let Charizard stick around, there's just not enough in the way of him doing massive damage to you and claiming a big lead for his team. If he drags things out too much, even when you kill him, suddenly you have 0% fresh Squirtle in your injured face. So, Charizard gives Ivysaur kills and sets up for Squirtle rampages. Alone, he would be nothing; he'd just be a sucky heavyweight who totally fails to measure up to Donkey Kong and Bowser on the parameters that matter.

What I'm saying is that solo Pokemon are really radical, and they defy the entire design of the character not just "as a team" but also how the individual Pokemon were built. The whole strategy for each Pokemon is informed by their position in the team; alone they would have totally different strategies. Squirtle would just be obviously overpowered, Ivysaur would be a bizarre and probably terrible character, and Charizard would just be a worse version of several other characters already in the game. 2/3 of those are because Ivysaur and Charizard, totally by design, have an incomplete set of tools for general combat and rely on their team to fill in the holes. Also, when balancing the cast in general, we assumed that matchups with PT Pokemon individually were far less important than real matchups since you never have to fight a PT Pokemon for the whole match. We're pretty sure, for instance, that Ivysaur is really brutal on Snake (even incomplete as Ivysaur is), maybe more than we would want to accept, but it's okay because Snake is similarly really brutal on Charizard and overall does fine against the Pokemon Trainer. If we wanted to make the option of playing them individually, we'd be in a terrible position because they aren't designed that way and just wouldn't fit into the metagame at all like that. We'd have to change them all a lot, and we'd probably just get Wario 2 (Squirtle), Olimar 2 (Ivysaur), and Bowser 2 (Charizard) with all being more dull than the characters they'd inevitably imitate. Does anyone really want that when they could just play Wario, Olimar, or Bowser in the first place?

As per the thing about gimmicks to playstyle, it's hard to see Yoshi as not possessing of several gimmicks (his shield game barely existing, pivot grab spam, etc.), but that's not really the bigger picture. The most "core" character you can find, the one reasonably complete on most aspects who all around has the tools to do well, but not exceptionally, in any situation is Mario... really just like Ryu before him (Street Fighter). Other characters are more extreme, and they have odd things about them that can be very good (the sort of thing someone like Mario could never have) but also things about them that can suck or are generally unfriendly to learn to use properly (also something Mario never has to deal with). Pokemon Trainer is the single biggest outlier of them all (though guys like Ice Climbers, Snake, and Ganondorf are pretty far out there too). He is just crazy in so many ways; he's a ridiculous endeavor to learn to use, and he has way more holes in his game than any other character. Of course, his game is also huge, triple the size of anyone else's game. He has way more options, including a lot of very powerful options, than anyone else. Characters that are so far from the norm do tend to be hard to balance, but Sakurai did give us a great start on Pokemon Trainer (he got the structure down really well, just made some errors with the components). While this is "balanced brawl", we don't consider variety as something up for sacrifice. Every fighting game needs its Marios no doubt, and BBrawl has a great one as well as a lot of characters who make small enough sacrifices that they are very friendly all around (Marth is a good example). Street Fighter fans may see the same sort of thing; everyone loves Ryu, but you still want to keep guys like Dhalsim, Zangief, and Vega as distinct as possible even if their relative worth is way harder to predict and get right as opposed to Ryu.

-----------

Anyway, on to other concerns, you guys are probably right that certain characters are getting way too much attention in discussion. I think I'll try throwing out a list, and we'll see what experiences people have with characters on that list...

Luigi
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Ice Climbers
Pikachu

Any interesting Bbrawl experiences with these five? Any good feelings on their matchups or anything cool like that? If you have something valuable to add about someone else, don't let this dissuade you, but it is true we should shift gears a bit and try to cover more ground.

 

[Linkshot]

Ice Climbers are extremely well done and I don't think they ever need to change from what they are now.