BBR Weekly Character Discussion #18: Peach

[Xyless]

You can add all of the 0's you want, doesn't combat hard facts.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

You can add all of the 0's you want, doesn't combat hard facts.

I think if you have enough 0's, it will not only combat hard facts, but cure world hunger, aids, and also give free puppies to anyone who desires them.

 

[TP]

I think if you have enough 0's, it will not only combat hard facts, but cure world hunger, aids, and also give free puppies to anyone who desires them.

Wait, Peach is pulling PUPPIES out of the ground too now?

SSS God Tier.

 

[Meru.]

You can add all of the 0's you want, doesn't combat hard facts.

Yeah, but I'm kinda doubting these hard facts since practice clearly shows that stitchfaces are waaaay more common than Beam Swords.

AND IS MINE!

 

[z00ted]

Yeah, but I'm kinda doubting these hard facts since practice clearly shows that stitchfaces are waaaay more common than Beam Swords.

I agree I pull stitchfaces more more often than bombs or any other item for that matter.

Has anyone mentioned how well double hit nair and bair is?
That **** is broken, and if it doesn't hit it almost completely destroys their shield.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Wait, Peach is pulling PUPPIES out of the ground too now?

SSS God Tier.

She can't pull out puppies unfortunetly
Would pigs do instead?

 

[C.S. Dinah]

I usually pull Mr.Saturns more than anything else lol.

 

[Xyless]

I'll go back and double check the facts, just in case.

 

[Deathfox30]

I don't think it's completely random. There have been times when I've pulled two Bom-ombs in a row. Doesn't D3 have some kind of thing that lets you throw Dragon pieces all the time or something? Goon Farming is the name iirc. Maybe Peach's pull is similar.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I don't think it's completely random. There have been times when I've pulled two Bom-ombs in a row. Doesn't D3 have some kind of thing that lets you throw Dragon pieces all the time or something? Goon Farming is the name iirc. Maybe Peach's pull is similar.

Pulling two bombs would be more evidence that it IS totally random than that it isn't.

DeDeDe can't pull up items when items are set to "none", which is why tournament rules specify that items should be set to "off" and "none". Peach can pull up a bomb, beam sword, or Mr. Saturn even if items are set to off and none.

 

[Eddie G]

Pulling two bombs would be more evidence that it IS totally random than that it isn't.

DeDeDe can't pull up items when items are set to "none", which is why tournament rules specify that items should be set to "off" and "none". Peach can pull up a bomb, beam sword, or Mr. Saturn even if items are set to off and none.

Because she's just that amazing. ;D

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Sooooo how many people think Peach is viable?
Just curious thats all

And is it me or does anyone else find themselves chucking away rare item pulls cause they're so used to buffering a throw/Glide Toss asap?
I swear I'm as shocked as my opponent when I pull a Bob-omb and hit someone with it xD

 

[Eddie G]

Sooooo how many people think Peach is viable?
Just curious thats all

And is it me or does anyone else find themselves chucking away rare item pulls cause they're so used to buffering a throw/Glide Toss asap?
I swear I'm as shocked as my opponent when I pull a Bob-omb and hit someone with it xD

Lol I'll admit to that one. Then again, I think it's good for everyone to be that surprised about a bomb-omb (including the Peach) because if you have it out just long enough to realize it's there, it's usually already too late to hit the opponent with it if they're also paying attention to the pull. Sometimes we'll still get lucky and score a hit, but I give most opponents more credit than that.

Hmm...Peach. Imo she is only, ONLY held down by Metaknight. The fact that he is the most frequent tournament character also kills her chances. If he were gone, Falco and a tie between Marth/Snake/Toon Link would be her only major obstacles (player and playstyle dependent), but they are all matchups that are near even or slightly in their favors and each of them can be stage counterpicked accordingly if the need arises. She can deal with the rest of the cast just fine regardless of her lack of kill power because of her random factors playing a part as well as her ability to quickly get them all to the necessary kill percent/decent ability to gimp.

She is a definite case of "what would be if not for...". At this moment she is not realistically tournament viable, not to win large tournaments consistently with, especially not with her most dangerous matchup being the most common. She is a solid character that can still make it far and/or place top 8 consistently. Still a worthwhile character to learn, both how to use and how to fight against, because she is still a major threat if not taken seriously and fought carefuly (like Olimar lololololol).

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Sooooo how many people think Peach is viable?
Just curious thats all

And is it me or does anyone else find themselves chucking away rare item pulls cause they're so used to buffering a throw/Glide Toss asap?
I swear I'm as shocked as my opponent when I pull a Bob-omb and hit someone with it xD

Well what's your definition of viable?

 

[Meru.]

Sooooo how many people think Peach is viable?
Just curious thats all

And is it me or does anyone else find themselves chucking away rare item pulls cause they're so used to buffering a throw/Glide Toss asap?
I swear I'm as shocked as my opponent when I pull a Bob-omb and hit someone with it xD

Bob-ombs. I hate them.

"Oh, Snake, I ****ing hate you, why wont you die, you piece of ****. God, I've plucked 10000 turnips already, I want a bomb NOW!"
* After eating a million damage, Snake makes a mistake*
"GOTCHA YOU MOTHA****ER, EAT MY CROWN *****! So, we're pretty even again "
*A grenade explodes on the same moment as I pluck something*
BOOM!
"AAAAAAAAH"

**** YOU BRAWL!!

Based on a true story.

I am, however, pretty lucky with stitchfaces.

If he were gone, Falco and a tie between Marth/Snake/Toon Link would be her only major obstacles (player and playstyle dependent),

Toon Link isnt baaaaad! ;_; I'm glad you've mentioned that it's player and playstyle dependent though... however to be quite honest, I don't find TL as much as an obstacle as for example Snake.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Here's why bomb ombs are the worst thing to pick up. I'd rather pick up a regular turnip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q4QncSgOT8

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I love that video sooooo much, makes me laugh everytime

By viable I mean go all the way in...well, anything. I'm not up to scratch as to what the different types of tournaments are called
I know the general agreement is that she has the ability to win something relatively big but I'm wondering whether Peach could at the highest level of play
From what I remember, I know (you included Edrees iirc) say that MK simply blocks her from winning at the highest level of play, couldn't remember what other peoples verdicts were so I'm curious to hear

I mean Peach as a character, I know lots of people say we need a 'that Peach'. Currently I think there's still some work to be done but at the highest level of play...would it be possible? Even if you didn't get super lucky random pulls?

 

[Brawlin]

Imo Peach is a solid character but you have to really practice with her in order for her to be good. She just has a really high learning curve. But I agree with MetalMusicMan. She is an underated character. She is great at comboing and the majority of her character matchups are in her advantage, especially in the lower tier characters.

 

[Nicole]

peach is a viable character. after playing anti at apex and going even with him the ENTIRETY of the first match, i know she can beat mk. anti is one of the best, and i am not on his level, so if i can keep up with his mk with my peach, i just dont see how she isn't viable and she cant win the matchup.

i also beat every mk that i money matched - none of them were particularly notable names, but it is still mk vs. peach, dont you guys find yourselves losing to random mks sometimes as well? i beat orion in all but one friendly we played, 2 stocked doom twice after losing one close game to him, and i nearly took a stock off of m2k with one stock of mine (it was a doubles match with just me and him left at really low percents).

i had no random item pulls on either anti or m2k. i cant remember the others, although i know i got a stitchface against one of the mks i MM-ed and smacked him around with it a bit. i think i got a racket sweetspot on anti once. but it's not like you have to rely on luck to win these things. it just takes ALOT of playing against a metaknight to get used to exactly how you have to play.

 

[z00ted]

I agree with Nicole: Peach is a viable character just Metaknight is her biggest obstacle. Falco, Snake, and Toon Link are an issue but can be dealt with if we play the matchup differently than our other ones.
Metaknight is not impossible if you learn the matchup and keep on playing them at high level. It just takes alot of dedication, spacing, and complete understandment of both of the characters.

 

[LanceStern]

I don't understand the Peach metaknight matchup as well as I should. I spent all my time learning the samus/mk matchup instead.

I feel right now Peach is not viable, and by viable I mean able to win a national or regional SOLELY BECAUSE OF METAKNIGHT.

Yes there are those wins in friendlies and money matches and stuff like that, but when push comes to shove and you run into 3 metaknights in a tourney, one of them is going to do some cheap tactics and get the better of Peach. It is still too unfavorable of a matchup to win the big one yet.

I also feel snake in some ways holds Peach down as well, moreso than Marth honestly. But she's definitely the closest to VIABLE out of any other characters I know (besides maybe ZSS)

 

[Orion*]

peach gets ***** by metaknight

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Everybody says Peach can beat MK this, peach can beat MK thatL

-"I got so close"
-"I went even with this top player"
-"I was one hit away from winning"
-"This new trick makes the matchup better, soon Peach's will beat MK"
"Ah, if only I didn't make that one mistake.."
"Ah, I need to focus more..I wasn't playing my best!"

I've been hearing the same story for the past 3 years but I've yet to see a single Peach take out and actually beat a MK player like M2K, Dojo, Tyrant, etc. It's never been done. Even characters like Luigi, Ness, Ike have done this - taken out a MK at the top level. Peach has not done this. On the flipside Peach's have taken top players of other characters down on a few occasions. That's a testament to how bad the matchup really is.

Ness's have taken out top MK's several times. Fact is Peach has it worse against MK than ness does, and that is just plain sad for her.

The fact that she has potential to do it but people came close was a good excuse 2 years ago. Maybe even 1 year ago. But like nearly 3 years into the life of a game where Peach players all go deep into tournies, place high and beat top players, but always get taken out by MK players every single time they face a really good one, and it isn't a coincidence. She is not viable to win a tournament because her match up with MK is just too bad.

I made a challenge like every 6 months for Peach players to prove me wrong and none have done it.

What people don't relaize is that getting close to beating a character percentage wise does not mean you were actually close to winning the match

If Peach and MK goes to 100% last stock everytime the matchup happens, but if MK wins 7 out of 10 of the matches, it is a 70-30 matchup. Peach players ALWAYS get close to beating MK, but MK ALWAYS wins. This is a pattern, not an aberration.

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

Its quite a shame really Edreeses. Makes me sad in dah pants.

 

[Eddie G]

Everybody says Peach can beat MK this, peach can beat MK thatL

-"I got so close
-"I went even with this top player"
-"I was one hit away from winning"
-"This new trick makes the matchup better, soon Peach's will beat MK"

I've been hearing the same story for the past 3 years but I've yet to see a single Peach take out and actually beat a MK player like Judge, M2K, Dojo, etc. It's never been done. Even characters like Luigi, Ness, Ike have done this - taken out a MK at the top level. Peach has not done this. On the flipside Peach's have taken top players of other characters down on a few occasions. That's a testament to how bad the matchup really is.

THIS. THANK YOU.

All delusions aside, this matchup is terrible. Peach is simply not capable of beating MK at a high/top level of play. The other characters (Ness, Ike, ZSS, Luigi, etc.) who have beaten top MKs have redeeming factors to help their chances in the matchup (fast falling, a decent airdodge, kill power, better projectiles against his air camping, being heavier, etc.); Peach completely lacks all of them, except for her turnips which aren't realistically that great. She is simply not built sufficiently enough to beat a top MK. Not even Excel_Zero, arguably the most technical Peach of his time, could make a dent in the sea of top MKs. The ugly truth continues to reveal itself over time, people.

I can't wait until I become ballsy enough to break my Diddy/Pikachu out in tournament. Both are much better against MK, and are still fun for tech lovers like myself lol.

I do hope someone proves me wrong soon though.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Its quite a shame really Edreeses. Makes me sad in dah pants.

Me too =( It doesn't mean that we have to give up, it just means we have to go into the matchup realizing what an uphill battle it is. IMO knowing you are against really tough odds makes it more likely you can overcome it.

 

[Orion*]

its definitely not unwinnable, you just have to outskill the metaknight. mk doesnt even really need to know the matchup that well, he just has to understand what tools your character has and abuse them to hell

 

[Queen B. Kyon]

its definitely not unwinnable, you just have to outskill the metaknight. mk doesnt even really need to know the matchup that well, he just has to understand what tools your character has and abuse them to hell

Like the rising sonic's I've been seeing?


And yes edress I know. I'm not giving up. But I really want to know what they were thinking giving her such a bad air dodge?
I'm still surprised when I see snake go thru like 10000000 uairs from mk.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

And yes edress I know. I'm not giving up. But I really want to know what they were thinking giving her such a bad air dodge?
I'm still surprised when I see snake go thru like 10000000 uairs from mk.

I had been thinking about that for awhile now. Peach's recovery I mean. Peach has a near impossible to beat parasol when recovering below the stage to the ledge. She also has very good horizontal recovery in the shape of floating and the slow fall of the parasol.

How plausible do you think it would be to recovery low everytime. Even when you take high knockback into the air. If you hug the side of the blastzone pretty closely, hardly any characters can reach you there. And many that can only have access to a single shot before they have to try to recover themselves. Once you get to that right height, you can float back to the ledge evade whatever get thrown your way, then parasol to the ledge. People need to do that more.

Something people fail to realize is that you can DI down the attacks to evade getting juggled. DI down a few times and you get a very low trajectory. This puts peach at a better angle to recover than on high where she is susceptiable to more juggles.

 

[Orion*]

I had been thinking about that for awhile now. Peach's recovery I mean. Peach has a near impossible to beat parasol when recovering below the stage to the ledge. She also has very good horizontal recovery in the shape of floating and the slow fall of the parasol.

How plausible do you think it would be to recovery low everytime. Even when you take high knockback into the air. If you hug the side of the blastzone pretty closely, hardly any characters can reach you there. And many that can only have access to a single shot before they have to try to recover themselves. Once you get to that right height, you can float back to the ledge evade whatever get thrown your way, then parasol to the ledge. People need to do that more.

Something people fail to realize is that you can DI down the attacks to evade getting juggled. DI down a few times and you get a very low trajectory. This puts peach at a better angle to recover than on high where she is susceptiable to more juggles.

diing down actually wont escape you from anything, most mks just out of habits assume you DI up. at high percents, you still are going to be above me, and im still going to **** you, at low ones SOMETIMES you may get out but if i react to it (not hard but thats just my reaction time possibly) i get more uairs in. better to DI down and to the L/R at low percents If thats what youre trying to do, but yeah, if i throw out a random shuttle you would go at a bad angle

also off the top of my head but what are you going to do vs invincinair if you recover low. you can accept that youre getting gimped i suppose and just jump tech -> try and live

Like the rising sonic's I've been seeing?


And yes edress I know. I'm not giving up. But I really want to know what they were thinking giving her such a bad air dodge?
I'm still surprised when I see snake go thru like 10000000 uairs from mk.

sonic is better than peach vs mk

 

[Xyless]

Im 100000% sure that the stitchface and Mr. Saturn are much more common than the beamsword/bomb.

Triple checked, and it's completely random once it gets to an item pull. Each chance has a scalar multiplier of 1, which means it has a 1/X chance of happening, and since there are 4 items, each item has a 1/4 chance of being pulled.

Your luck streak just so happens to be that Stitches and Saturns are more common.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'm going beyond addressing MK orion and talking about peach's recovery as a whole in regards to other scenarios other than MK.

 

[Praxis]

Xeylode I'm going to destroy you.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Peach and MK goes to 100% last stock everytime the matchup happens, but if MK wins 7 out of 10 of the matches, it is a 70-30 matchup. Peach players ALWAYS get close to beating MK, but MK ALWAYS wins. This is a pattern, not an aberration.

So why then do Peach mains claim, that it's only MK who holds her back?

 

[Cook]

also off the top of my head but what are you going to do vs invincinair if you recover low.

I really don't think you can invincinair through Peach's umbrella. I try it all the time and it never works for me if the Peach sweetspots the ledge (which of course she is going to do). What DOES work most of the time is shuttle looping from the edge, although sometimes Peach's parasol will go through the shuttle loop, even when MK is below her.



Also, the reason why you don't see Peach players beating top MKs is because there aren't any Peach players that are as good as the top MK players.

 

[Orion*]

Also, the reason why you don't see Peach players beating top MKs is because there aren't any Peach players that are as good as the top MK players.

LOLOLOLOLOL

yes im sure thats the reason

 

[Dark.Pch]

I wanna point out that how skilled the Peach player is is important. as with the skill of the meta player does not matter to much since it is meta.

Peach players not doing anything in big tournies, placing high in tournies in thier area but not beating anyone note worthy. Or losing to people/characters that they should be beating.

And the reason for this is cause Peach players are not that good as players. You can have a knife and I have a gun. If I have no clue how to shoot, You are beating me with a knife.

Ganon Vs Meta. Even with how meta carries people (Read Kzissles blog on AiB on this, lot of truth in it) If the meta does not know how to use him and the ganon is a beast of a player in general, Ganon is gonna be all over meta.

No Peach player right now is on a level of the pro players we have today. No one. They can get close to winning but does not happen cause

- It's meta knight (oh winning with meta, who cares really......it's freaking meta) or any other hard match up

- Emeny is pro status or just plain better

- Peach players have yet to achive that level

- And to be they way people play her now, they limit themselves hard.

So if you think. I dont care how one can know thier character, if you are not as good as the enemy, all you gonna get is "almost won, cant win"

Character match ups are not the only part of it. Player skills takes into account. and it seems alot of people tend to forget this so much. I have been through stuff where a person would go meta on me cause it is meta and he knows he won't beat me with others. Yet I still win. Cause I am smarter, and all this dude did was rely on tiers to beat me.

Peach players now are like medicore at best. None are on pro level. None abuse and master all she can do, which needs to happen, thus I say they limit themselves.

X, San, Fow, Sharky. They place well and high at big tournies with thier character. Reguardless of dumb *** match ups. Why, cause they are on pro status as players. And just applied that to thier characters. And abuse fully what they can do. Peach has more options then these characters and is better. yet Peach players cant even make it out of bracket in big tournies. The skill of the player also players a big part. nit just tier whoring and things that is all it takes. Thinking like that is straight dumb. And something people need to realize already. The names I gave are a prime example of this.

So in short, yea the fact that Peach players are not on the same level of thought and skill actually plays a big part to her performance and how she is seen as a character. And people tend to ignore this so they come out on stop and seem like they are write about stuff they say. Think people need to understand the true meaning of the word skills. And what it takes to be good with a character. And as a player in general

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ohhhh Crashboards how I loathe thee


If you look at both Crow!'s charts and characters placements in general in tournaments, you'll find that a fair few characters (who aren't high tier) have a 'hero' - one person who does extremely well with said character. But how many people other than Person A with Character X take out a Top MK's?

This wouldn't be valid if these characters had a fair few people consistantly doing really well or beating out top MK's such as the upper high tier characters like Snake, Diddy and Falco but they don't - its always that one person who is a cut above everyone else. Peach doesn't have 'that hero'
Not to mention that these characters who have this paticular 'hero' don't actually outright win vs all the top MK's - (top) MK's still come out on top (just look at MLG). I'm not bashing these people's efforts, what they're doing is brilliant but if someone does something noteworthy with Character X such as beating out top MK's, it's always Person A who does it. I'm mainly looking at the characters below Peach/around her current tier level who have done said MK beatings

The question is - are these characters simply more viable than Peach because Person A have proven they can beat MK with Character X/does this mean that Peach isn't winning because she is unviable because her match up with MK is actually so much more dreadful than people say or does it mean that Peach does not have a player of a similar skill to Person A/have a player who is skilled enough to take out these top MK's, which has been done by other characters? You could argue it both ways I guess


Perhaps I'm wrong - maybe I haven't looked at enough info and I'd be willing to refute what I said if it turns out I'm speaking gibberish

 

[Cook]

Dark Peach gets it.

 

[deepseadiva]

Agreed with Dark. We suck.

I know after three years, that's a pretty bad excuse. But listen, we suck pretty bad. The new generation of Peaches simply lack that natural talent a lot of players of less characters seem to have. We are working to get good and that takes a really long time.