BBR Weekly Character Discussion #29: Yoshi

[Shiri]

...the hell is this?

 

[Poltergust]

Oh good, this is finally public. =O

Not very good, back air doesn't have much priority. It's good for combating people who try to camp and approaching, but once you are close, it's not good to attack with it, Olimar's smashes will beat it out. It's good for hitting Pikmin he throws at you though as you make an approach.

Actually, almost all of Yoshi's moves beat out almost all of Olimar's Pikmin moves. N-air especially.

Also, about Yoshi's double-jump heavy armor, I don't think Ankoku explained it too accurately. Yes, you get knocked out of it depending on the knockback of the move and the percentage you are in. However, unlike 64 or Melee, you would receive the normal amount of knockback if the attack breaks through the heavy armor. Knockback is not reduced when it comes to Yoshi's heavy armor in Brawl: it is either at 0 or the normal knockback.

Anyways, I'm surprised at the overall praise Yoshi got (except by AA, lol at Jigglypuff > Yoshi).

Oh, and don't think I'll be as weak as I was at WHOBO2, DMG.

EDIT: Shiri, you should read the Tactical Board more often. You do know that the next tier list is coming out in roughly 2-3 weeks, right?

 

[bigman40]

I'ma expand yall knowledge much more (and educate some yoshis) since I had information that wasn't released quite yet due to me not finishing it (plus, I lost the information ). Anyways, to correct poltergust, certain pikmin can beat yoshi's moves. HOWEVER, Nair beats all of them (even purple). I'ma go workout before I make my post. Nice to at least see most of the BBR understanding Yoshi's game (the majority of it).

 

[Poltergust]

Hence I said "n-air especially."

 

[PZ]

Yoshi has kill moves O_o. Any1 with decent DI shouldnt die b4 how about 120%. Usmash is more of a combo maker if anything lol. Yoshi is definetly underrated but his grab game is by far one of the best. Air mobility is awesome in comparison to any1's but mayb wario's. His projectile is like the reason I second him cuz of my ability use it for anything. Yoshi's recovery is bad if read.=( Idk I think I just play him for fun cuz he is fun regardless of who im playing. Never knew I could play olimar until I started seconing yoshi.

 

[Delta-cod]

**** Post

Oh my gooooooooooooooooooooood. <3

Everything I've seen done by Yoshi players tells me he's the campiest character in the game.

As long as he's being played by me.

His weaknesses are really huge though. His biggest weakness is that he has a really hard time killing anyone he can't combo into usmash out of grab release on. As G&W I know it's pretty hard to get an offense going on Yoshi, and it's pretty hard to avoid taking damage, but it doesn't really translate to a Yoshi advantage since he has to get me to nearly 200% every stock to actually finish me off as long as I keep playing carefully and don't ever let him get more than he deserves out of any exchange. That's as G&W; I shudder to imagine what Yoshi's plan for actually ending one of Snake's stocks is.

It doesn't really matter how long it takes Yoshi to kill if he's not taking any damage in return. It's entirely possible to play INCREDIBLY safe against G&W that getting you up that high doesn't really matter. It also helps that our Usmash is one of the main anti-airs in the MU (well, always) and it kills, so if you're trying to punish a pivot grab by moving in too far you'll get killed for it.

It's easier to kill Snake because he's easier to edgeguard/juggle/punish landings on. Although it can take up to 200%, it's entirely possible to take the stock at 150 or lower.

Not having a real shield really sucks a lot for Yoshi; his defensive game is so good otherwise, but he has to be actively working hard at defense always when other characters have easier answers, and there are so many things in this game that only are effective against Yoshi because every other character and easily block and punish while Yoshi can't. I think every character in the cast has Yoshi-exclusive pressure tactics just because of the myriad things that are unsafe on block in general but safe on block against Yoshi.

Those tactics would be standing near the shield. I laugh whenever someone hits my shield because I use the slide from that and roll away, or spotdodge it and jab to get away.

A third issue is that, while Yoshi has some great ways to deal damage, they're all slow damage rackers. His jab does a lot to keep him safe but little to lead into real big damage as long as the opponent realizes "if I get hit by this, I work to back off always". In match-ups in which he can't grab release chaingrab, all those pivot grabs he has such an easy time landing don't translate to nearly as much damage as he would like since he has the overall least damaging throws out of the entire cast, and none of them lead to anything. It just limits Yoshi's ability to run away with matches; he has to be earning his damage every step of the way in a series of countless exchanges. That's really not good at all even if he's pretty decent at those exchanges.

The grabs set up edgeguards/juggles and give an overall better position, allowing for follow up damage. Nothing is guaranteed, but it's quite useful. Damage racking also isn't too slow with proper air harassment. Eggs do 9% fresh, and they set up for some nasty frame traps in the air, and they're quite easy to set up off stage.

All of those issues I feel will always keep Yoshi in the low tier; it's kinda impossible to avoid being "bad" with that stacked against you. However, Yoshi has a solid game plan and a lot of tricks; I think he's one of the better low tiers. Among low tiers, I'd rank him below Jigglypuff but above all the others.

I really can't see Yoshi in the same grouping with the rest of low tier. I just see so many more options with him than I do with the others.

Overall I think Falco wins this match-up 6:4 or 65:35, Yoshi is lucky to have his grab release tricks, it would be worse without that.
Falco outcamps yoshi easily, he can't shield them like most chars would so he's more limited to spotdodge/airdodging them or just jumping above them ( running yoshi can also go below lasers if falco's shooting too high). Egg throw can be annoying at first because of it being hard to power shield and spotdodge, but shine easily gets that move down, retreating jump while shining works pretty well on a camping yoshi.

If you shine an egg, you're allowing for an approach. It's actually what I want Falco to do when I throw an egg during his SHDL.

He can't usmash us out of a grab release like he does with more characters, which greatly increases our chances to live to high %, but can still chaingrab us most of the times ( we only get to platforms in specific situations in yoshi's, halberd, castle siege and lylat). Thankfully the spike after that is really hard to do and kinda situational.

The Usmash isn't guaranteed, but get this:

The CG needs to be frame perfect.
The CG leads to a nasty offstage position for Falco.
You will spot dodge to avoid the CG.
Instead of grabbing, we run in and charge Usmash.
/stock.

Other fun tricks include running behind Falco and pivot grabbing him, and off stage egglay/Fair (spacing reliant.)

Besides that this match-up is pretty simple, Falco can either camp yoshi or try to beat him with his godlike jab mixup in close combat, but being risky of yoshi's grab. Falco still has to be careful about some of yoshi's trick like his dj super armor with uair that can kill him really early, but if the falco knows yoshi's gimmicks he should do pretty well vs him

Falco's jab cancel is unsafe on hit, IIRC. We can most likely Nair out of it. Or DJ Nair to be extra safe. The Match up is much closer to even than you think, probably 55:45 Falco.

How does Yoshi do against some of the more obscure high tiers, like Olimar and Pikachu?

It's about even with Olimar. Yoshi has the tools and air speed to get in, and the safe grab/Usmash/bait game to keep Olimar in the air. Naturally, Olimar still has his ground game to be stupid with, but the match up really can go either way. Bair rushing works pretty well in this MU, and our dash grab actually hops us over Olimar's grab, which is a fun little trick. I like this one.

Pikachu's even as well, we have a pretty minor CG on him for little damage, but it does give us stage control and momentum, as well as move refreshes. It's pretty hard for either character to land a kill in the MU if both players are being careful. I'm not too much of a fan for this one, but it's not bad.

Yoshi and Pikachu is pretty close to even IMO, maybe slightly in Pika's favor. Yoshi can CG if buffered. Yoshi's up air actually beats Pika's down air as well. Yoshi's also pretty good at stopping Pika's QAC's with well timed and spacing bairs. Pika's priority can give Yoshi troubles, but Pika and Yoshi are close to even because they both have horrible range on their aerials, so they matchup closely there.

Pikachu's lack of range on his aerials actually make our pivot grab/Usmash game better than normal on him. We can camp Pikachu pretty decently, thought not really with eggs because in a projectile war, Pika should win.

Yoshi and Olimar is a pretty close matchup too, as Olimar is champion of the ground Yoshi actually has some tools that takes that away with his long ranged grab and pivot grabs. It keeps Olimar from relying on his shield grabs and keeps him guessing. Yoshi also has the best air horizontal speed in the game, so approaching Olimar with bair's while he's throwing Pikmin doesn't cost Yoshi too much damage, and Yoshi has his ETS as well - ie Yoshi is a very hard character to camp. This might be even, I don't really know enough to decide

It's really hard to camp Olimar because Pikmin interfere with eggs at long range. At a closer range, you're getting hit by pikmin and Olimar can punish the egg toss. I'd rather just approach him.

Those are all valid points-and maybe it isn't as large of advantage for Diddy as I thought-but I just don't see what Yoshi can do against a Diddy that camps and utilizes side b and fair. Yoshi's eggs are great but I don't think they can compete with Diddy's camp game, particularly if the Diddy player has powershielding eggs down.

Watched the videos though. That Yoshi is impressive.

Diddy's pretty tough. You really need to be careful of bananas and try to play near the ledge a lot to avoid banana damage. I'm really not very good at this match up, but I know Yoshi doesn't use the bananas very well.

I had a taste of Polter at Whobo 2. The problem, frankly, is that it's Yoshi. He's good, but I just abused his weaknesses as Wario and Diddy.

Lies, you can't beat the Blood God.

MK matchup against Yoshi isn't that great for Yoshi. The main problem Yoshi has is that he has NO reliable approach on MK. At all. Egg Toss simply is not enough. 6:4ish to 65:35 IMO. 55:45 is a BIG stretch I think.

MK MU is interesting. Yoshi does have an answer to everything, but MK has a lot of other options that beat the option you chose. Yoshi CAN play the MU incredibly safe however, and it can be a pain for MK. But yeah, it's really not that good. Approaching him is bad, too.

ALL of Yoshi's best options are defensive, not offensive. By a LARGE margin. What does this mean? It means instead of trying to get inside close quarters with him when you have the lead, try standing midrange and have him come to you. Egg Toss is overrated in forcing an approach. Sit there and see what he can do. DJC Egglay real quick maybe? I mean really, Yoshi is pretty bad at successfully approaching. He has many options, but most of them are meh status.

So! Get lead, sit mid range or long range, Lol as he tosses Eggs and you avoid them (because most people forget that Yoshi is lagged for the egg toss, meaning even if you have to SH airdodge as Snake/someone sluggish that he can't punish it), and watch him have to play RPS with what option he will try to approach with. If your character is not someone who heavily frame traps him on Shield like Peach, Marth, MK, etc then maybe you don't need to be that close once you get some damage in. It's one thing if you are behind, by all means be cautious as you get closer to him, but dear lord I will cringe if I see another MK at like 80-90% start approaching when Yoshi has like 140% and ends up getting Pivot Grabbed into Usmash. Instead of, you know, waiting for Yoshi to come to him.

Yoshi actually does have some approaches. Some very good ones, actually. you can't just sit there and PS eggs, they have two hitboxes and eventually you'll get shield stabbed by one. If you start to dodge however, Yoshi can jump at you and egg toss. If you shield, you're at a frame disadvantage. If you spot dodge, you've got Yoshi on top of you waiting to punish. It's a very good frame trap.

Then there's also the conventional approaches. Bair beats spotdodges, Egg Lay beats shield. RPS kind of thing. Bair can be FF'd or FH'd or whatever to allow for different mix ups. FF'd Bair leads to ground options. FH'd/not FF'd Bair allows for a double aerial shuffle kind of thing, where we can Bair and then Nair behind for a safer landing. Or Bair > DJ Nair to be extra safe. Or Bair > Egg Lay.

There's also grounded approaches in dash/pivot grab. A lot of people think that Yoshi will grab when they see him running at them, so they spot dodge. A sliding Usmash can beat that.

Yoshi's approach game is pretty meh, but entirely doable and doesn't get ***** by everyone. His camp game covers him very well anyways.

I've been waiting for this discussion for a while. I'll post something of my own later.

 

[PZ]

Good read delta.

 

[Deleted member]

People assume too much by watching the yoshis that they play/live in their region.

Yoshi has offensive options because he can punish every defensive option except for like invincibility options (MK shuttle loop), coupled with huge air speed and combos(as well as easy punishes off reads, while many characters cant punish some things even if they know its coming).


Egg toss is only amazing because people dont know how to powershield. It would make people more inclined to play offensive yoshi, which is a lot of fun.

Im not entirely sure why yoshi is bad, i used to know, but now its kinda like "well he loses badly to MK, and if you arent playing your A-game you will not get away with it". He doesnt lose badly at all to marth or falco.

 

[PZ]

Marth ***** all my characters=(. Yoshi seems well safe options really. I didnt know nair approaches hit olimar so bad. When vocal told me I was like no way that'll work but ****. If this is up by Friday I might post something meaningful well to me I never come here lol.

 

[Delta-cod]

People assume too much by watching the yoshis that they play/live in their region.

Yoshi has offensive options because he can punish every defensive option except for like invincibility options (MK shuttle loop), coupled with huge air speed and combos(as well as easy punishes off reads, while many characters cant punish some things even if they know its coming).


Egg toss is only amazing because people dont know how to powershield. It would make people more inclined to play offensive yoshi, which is a lot of fun.

Im not entirely sure why yoshi is bad, i used to know, but now its kinda like "well he loses badly to MK, and if you arent playing your A-game you will not get away with it". He doesnt lose badly at all to marth or falco.

You can't just powershield egg toss. It does shield damage anyways because it hits twice.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Yoshi is pretty decent at getting into Olimar's blind spots because of his wide area-effecting aerials and air speed. The problem is that getting into those areas means risking being caught shielding or having to land nearby the Olimar, both of which blow for Yoshi in general.

And I don't think camping is that great for Yoshi, but it feels like camping because the Yoshi has to be overly cautious about where he's landing.

I would also like to mention that he has some options for landing momentum (neutral B), sort of like Snake's landing options.

 

[Deleted member]

You can't just powershield egg toss. It does shield damage anyways because it hits twice.

Run PS yes you can and its not hard.

 

[Airborne]

Run PS yes you can and its not hard.

You're not throwing it right.

I'm throwing input on this discussion in an hour tops.

 

[Deleted member]

...
are...
are you really saying that im not throwing eggs right?

Spoiler

*facepalm*

 

[Airborne]

...
are...
are you really saying that im not throwing eggs right?

Spoiler

*facepalm*

Yes. Yes I did.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok. Thanks for your feedback =]

Spoiler

have fun continuing to be mediocre and not placing in one of the worst regions.<3

For some slower characters (slow acceleration) walk/run powershielding eggs doesnt do too much, but if MK is powershielding an egg out of a dash he can often get an easy punish. Snake can walk PS and yoshi hates walking snake with a passion. Tons of other characters can do it too, and powershielding isnt that hard(people need to learn when it will double hit you tho).

 

[Shiri]

Oh, wait, this is a serious thread.

Definitely caught me off guard, LOL. I was just about to lock it, too.

 

[Poltergust]

Shiri! You're a mod! You're supposed to follow these kinds of things! D:

 

[Z'zgashi]

I find that purposfully throwing an egg short when you feel an approach coming really makes them think twice about trying dashes towards you. And faking approaches plus good camping makes them eventually get impatient and try and make an attempt to rush you in a way that isn't as advantagous for them, leading to egglays, pivot grabs, or bair combos. This has worked for me quite often.

 

[Airborne]

Ok. Thanks for your feedback =]

You're welcome.

I will now sh*t a brick on several topics that may or may not have been brought up:

Egg Toss
Egg Toss is a misunderstood move in that, you don't actually want to "hit" your opponent. By hit, I mean there is RARELY a reason to throw it directly at the opponent. The best possible use for egg toss is based off of zoning your opponent, due to the fact that you can throw it freaking anywhere. When zoning your opponent with said egg, you are attempting to accomplish two objectives with the toss:
-Preventing your opponent from controlling a favorable position
-Delaying the explosion for as long as possible

Now you're probably thinking: "Airborne, why would I want to delay the 'eggsplosion'?" Well, when the egg shatters by itself, meaning it doesn't collide with a character, floor, etc., Yoshi actually gains frame advantage. There is such a large window of frame advantage, that it is possible to actually combo egg into fair or standing grab. YEAH, I am serious. When the egg is thrown this way onto a shielding opponent, the Yoshi creates a frame trap that is larger than most moves. The window is so large that, when done perfectly, Metaknight can't even nair OoS to punish a pivot grab follow-up; spotdodge, Bowser's upb and Marth's upb are the only counters to this situation.

There is yet another use for this delayed 'eggsplosion', that very few projectiles can do. What I am speaking of is breaking out of a grab. If Yoshi tosses an egg as low as possible, yet straight up, it is able to hit at least 90% of the cast while standing. The use in this is simply to create a neutral reset at a point blank range, but it's always great to get 9% off on someone when they least expect it.

The other little things about Egg Toss that are pretty **** useful are Edge Canceled Eggs (ECE) and the ability for them to bounce off of shields; Edge Canceled Eggs are quite essential for a Yoshi desiring to return to the stage, due to the fact that they are a friendly way of saying "Get the f*** away, I'm trying to recover." ECE's, however, require the same nurturing that the normal everyday Airborne Egg requires, proper aim for zoning. If you don't want your opponent to continue edge guarding you, you're going to have to limit his options, and control the space that you need to return to the stage and reset positioning.

Eggs tend to bounce off of shields when they hit at a unique angle. The usefulness in this idea is so that your opponent cannot simply approach by walking in and PSing. The egg will first hit the Powershield, bounce slightly off to the side and potentially hit the shield a second time, causing enough shield pressure to shrink their window for more sufficient punishes. If an egg bounces off of a normal shield, it will cause additional shield pressure, resulting in either a shieldpoke or a great amount of shield decay.

This last paragraph of bouncing eggs is something I don't know TOO MUCH about, so that's all I have to say.

Now I have a more important matter to bring up...

What makes Yoshi good, or at least Mid-Tier Worthy???
Since the public release of Brawl in Japan, 2 years and 7 months ago, people have been trying to figure quite how Yoshi should be played. You've all witnessed Bwett's run around style; Scatz's aggressive ground-pressure game, utilizing the Draconic Reverse; Green Ace begin_of_the_skype_highlighting*****end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting*****end_of_the_skype_highlighting, PRiDE, and DeltaCod's camp games; and my Air-camping style. YES, I AIR CAMP WITH YOSHI. I'LL GET BACK TO YOU ON THAT, SO DON'T SCOFF THE IDEA IMMEDIATELY. Shiri has predicted that Yoshi's future depends solely on his ground game. However, in the past month, I have seen the light at the end of this grimy, dark tunnel. The future of Yoshi's metagame revolves around his overall mobility.

Yoshi has the Best Overall Maneuverability IN THE GAME
"WHAT?! YOSHI IS THE BEST AT SOMETHING IN BRAWL?!!?!" Yes, I am once again serious. In fact, this entire post is serious. Yoshi has the best combined ground maneuverability and aerial maneuverability, primarily due to the fact that he can combine the two in order to become the most devastating character in motion out there.

Spoiler

It must be the shoes...

While Wario controls the world of air maneuverability, Yoshi is second, due to the fact that he has the highest horizontal airspe--"B-B-BUT, AIRBORNE, HE HAS NO ACCELERATION!!!" Yes, I know. He does have methods to get around that issue though.

B-Reverse/Wavebouncing/Recoil Special/Whatever the hell it is called is Yoshi's fist option at reversing his velocity into the opposite direction, seeing as that he has the best uses for it in the game. Egg Toss and Egg Lay are the only two specials in Yoshi's moveset that actually retain horizontal movement, so it's clear that those two moves are what drive this groovin' maneuverin' dinosaur. The B-reverse (I'm calling it that for the sake of sanity) involved with these two moves allow Yoshi to, not only mix-up Yoshi's recovery back to the ground, but to mix-up how he approaches/retreats from/follows-up the enemy. This B-reverse is so absurd that Yoshi can run off of Battlefield, do a B-reversed egglay, reach under the middle of the stage, and still have his DJ and all 5 of his eggs, causing you to guess which ledge he is going to return to.

The other method of giving Yoshi some outstanding aerial acceleration is his Double Jump. Yoshi's Double Jump always restores his maximum air speed in a flash, while also granting a humongous height and his amazing heavy armor; it really is the best Double Jump in the game. However, the fact that Yoshi can cancel his Double Jump using his specials, as well as the DR Waveland (I'll talk about this later), grants him more control of the vertical plane. Since Yoshi sinks in the initial frames of his Double Jump, he is able to lower his initial height with DJC's, as well as control the space between the initial height and the apex of his second jump. Egg Lay and Egg Toss each key roles in this particular situation, due to the fact that Egg Toss will give Yoshi a slight advance in height over Egg Lay. The last and final part of the DJC is that Yoshi can eliminate his aerial presence in an instant, and proceed to groove around the lovely plane we call ground.

There is one more addition to his aerial maneuverability that I'd like to add one before I proceed to his ground game. When Infinite Super Jumping (a.k.a. ISJ, the ability to restore your second jump by performing an aerial or an airdodge at a certain time when returning to the ground) was first discovered, Bowser appeared to be the only character that could make use out of it. Yoshi is yet another character that has a use for it, and it's even better. Not only can Yoshi perform this trick from a rising Short-Hop nair/fair/bair/uair with ease, but he can actually restore his Double Jump while RISING from the ground. Since his double jump initially sinks down, Yoshi can somehow emulate the idea of doing the ISJ without even being in the air prior to! The Super Jump created from this can cause Yoshi to reach the top of the screen without even having to descend, allowing for tech chase uairs that kill off the top at 70% or even less. It also creates the illusion that Yoshi has lost his Double Jump, so that the Yoshi player can throw out a rogue window of heavy armor frames and punish the opponent with 12% damage worth of Nikes. This can also be done on more than just the ground...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpo3QuIG2fo#t=22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmVMOij6HdM#t=23s

What a lovely way to remain in the air forever, no?

Now for Yoshi's ground maneuverability: the Draconic Reverse. It's such a lovely way of prancing around the stage, and can be done in just a slap of the thumb, given the right controls (B=Jump, X=Special). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3AliyBKGGY#t=1m33s
IT'S NOT THAT F***ING HARD!!! It does, however, take daily practice, and a broad view of understanding to master this technique and implement it into your style. The controls don't even take very long to adapt to, and it'll feel completely natural after a month or so.

In order to implement the Draconic Reverse into your style, you must learn that it allows you to NOT COMMIT on your approaches, giving you the chance to be safe, and learn how your opponent reacts to stuff. I'll allow Scatz to cover this section, since I've only been actually implementing it into my style for about a week or so.

That's all from me for now; I'll finish this when I have some more free time, and am not staying up until 3 am writing this out.

 

[DMG]

You took the time to describe why Yoshi is meh?

Great Scott!

 

[Airborne]

You took the time to describe why Yoshi is meh?

Great Scott!

Yeah, and I'm not even close to being finished. I'll finish my lecture on Yoshi's maneuverability when Scatz posts his stuff on Yoshi's ground game and the DR. For now, I'm just going to touch on to some different topics...

Yoshi's Kill Power, Options, and the Set-Ups into Them
I know everyone in here has listed Yoshi's common kill moves: Uair, Usmash, Fsmash, Down-B, Nair, and the Fair spike. However, no one has listed Egg Roll, Fair's 'sourspot', and Dsmash. Although Egg Roll and Dsmash don't kill until the upper 100's, Dsmash can be combo'd into from Jab at higher %'s, and Egg Roll can be started from several different positions, requiring you to only travel about 3/4 of Halberd's Platform's length to attain full speed, damage, and knockback. Since Yoshi's Double Jump sinks in the initial frames, as I've stated twice in my last gigantic post, Yoshi can actually start Egg Roll from the air as if he started it on the ground. Yoshi can also cancel his aerial presence on platforms by using the same height on the ground and starting a grounded egg roll. At first glance, this would seem highly useless, since Yoshi's Egg Roll takes quite a while to exit out of. HOWEVER, if Yoshi connects with soemthing that will draw his hitbox out, he can exit the egg roll through far less distance, probably a little less than the length of a Battlefield platform. What makes this useful? If Yoshi breaks out of Egg Roll at a certain height above the ground, he will land LAGLESSLY. Guess what? That height is attainable on Halberd's platform, Battlefield's platform, Smashville's platform, and potentially several others! So, if Yoshi hits someone, it will knock them upward and Yoshi will have additional time to setup a kill. If Yoshi hits a shield, he can run away from the situation safely and reset positioning or continue pressure from underneath the opponent.

Jab->Dsmash is not only guaranteed at higher %'s, but so is Jab->Down-B, and in some character's cases, Jab->Fsmash. Sadly, Scatz lost all of the frame data he had gathered from his motherboard failing, so we are going to have to archive it all over again.

My Egg Toss section on my last post explains how Yoshi can combo into every move in his arsenal, with his kill moves at kill %'s being included.

At around 40 or 50%, the first two hits of Yoshi's bair actually lift the opponent high enough off of the ground to where Yoshi can cancel the rest of bair by landing, and then legitimately combo into his Usmash. This works until 110 or 120% only because the opponent just flies too far away for Usmash to reach. However, starting around 100%, Yoshi can legitimately combo either of the first two hits of bair into a Short-Hop Uair for a kill. And as a mix-up, Yoshi can force an airdodge, remain on the ground, and kill with either Fsmash or rising Down-B.

More to come.

 

[Deleted member]

Airborne, ranting about irrelevant stuff since...well ever
<3

 

[Airborne]

Airborne, ranting about irrelevant stuff since...well ever
<3

Irrelevance=/=Excessive detail.

 

[Sharky]

I was totally agreeing with shiri's first post, then I realized that it was a second discussion and not the one from 08.

Then I read what most of the BBR members were saying, and I once again agree with shiri's first post lmao

Yoshi at his current level of progress does not belong in mid tier. If people like delta and poltergust (stocky sorry I haven't been keeping up with you lately since that one tourney where your mom took you away =/ ) CONTINUE to do well, AGAINST PLAYERS THAT KNOW YOSHI (emphasis on this), then I might change my mind, but I just don't think he has what it takes.

For the most part I agree with what DMG said.

 

[Deleted member]

But excessive detail on irrelevence=fail

I do think infinate jump is amazing, and it does have its place but to say thats where his potential lies is silly. He already has lots of basic tools that nobody is using to their fullest, and while certain yoshis are good at some stuff they dont utilize all of his basic options. Infinate jump is good to mix things up and as a neat gimmick in some matchups, but its not a staple at all, because yoshi has no good down air

 

[Depster]

The only input I have is that it seems like we need a new set of BRoomers lol...

Reminds me of that Smashwiki where bair was called dragonic reverse.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I feel like Neutral B is Yoshi's best move.

I'm just going to throw that out there and see what becomes of it.

 

[bigman40]

There are two main items which hold Yoshi back. The first is that optimal play with him is so technical that nobody I have seen even tries it. More on this later.

Hi.

I'm actually quite happy with the way this discussion came out, but there's stuff some people don't exactly know of and there's some slight new information found that wasn't released yet.

To get started, Yoshi is pulled down from the slight amount of characters that shuts down his approaching and camping game (Falco and MK). If there's certain matchups he can't do one side from a neutral position, then he can easily change to the other game until he has openings to do what he wants. At the same time, the slight amount of characters that literally force him into his shield more often causes bad matchups.

Going into more depth (at least through top and high tier) on his MU spread, it's surprisingly slightly losing (overall). For MK, Yoshi is literally outranged and too slow to fight off a smart MK. His tons of options to stop tornado are reduced when it is spaced (makes pivot grab unsafe), and the rest of Yoshi's options are limited because he needs to get a hard read before MK can react to them. Yoshi has to space his grabs and Usmash since his hurtbox is still susceptible to getting hit before his hitbox can reach MK. Fsmash doesn't rely on spacing since a well spaced one doesn't knock MK out of nado. Surpisingly, Dair can consistently knock MK out of nado and eggroll can only tie or beat nado (yes, I tested this, and I'm aware that eggroll is bad due to the cooldown). Moving from nado, Yoshi can't reliably grab MK to utilize his grab release options. Having Usmash to only kill and Dsmash/Dash Attack/Dtilt/Ftilt/Jabs for damage racking methods is definitely great (each CG on FD deals no less than 15% with Dsmash/Dtilt), but consistently landing it is extremely hard due to MK's camping options. The other reason why Yoshi can't deal with MK is because of the damage we take while recovering. We can't reliably cover high because MK covers our options (wavebounced egglay, Dair, retreating Bair, etc.) with Uair, Nado, and Shuttleloop. This is one of his matchups that he can't consistently handle and is pulling him down. I honestly see MK semi countering Yoshi 65:35.

Snake has mixed opinions due to some people not knowing exactly how to fight him off. Yoshi doesn't technically win a camp war vs Snake simply because of the speed Snake can pull nades, but Yoshi's camp forces Snake to use nades smart. Not only that, we can platform camp snake really easily. He can't stop us from running back and forth on stages like BF with his normal options (nades, c4, and mines), and Snake it just too slow to even catch us while we're camping. Our normal game tends to get stuffed by dash attack. This causes us to change the way we can normally space Snake. Other than that, everything becomes a guessing game. Snake isn't one of the characters that can reset the field well, and he has juggling problems. A snake in the air can easily take heavy damage before making everything neutral. Not only that, but since Egg Toss can stop his upB momentarily, it gives us an easy spike on him, and when he's recovering high, we just have to land a grab to start everything all over.

Falco is one of Yoshi bad matchups. Period. He's able to shut down Yoshi's camp, while being able to semi-shutdown his aggro game. Yoshi has to literally sit mid range all the time and space everything to get slight punishes. The second Yoshi makes mistakes, he gets CGed to 50%+, then another mistake, and he can die. Falco should be camping Yoshi (going aggro makes this matchup much easier) to efficiently make a Yoshi struggle. On the filp side, we have some perks when landing grabs or a combo starter. We're given a CG to take stage control, and we can grab his illusion if timed right. We just have to play much harder to keep the match from avalanching to Falco's win.

Ice Climbers make us happy. Wavebounced egglays, Bair, and Egg toss stuff their approaches. To add, if egglay were to land, it has a better chance grabbing Popo since he's ahead, and the second this happens, we can just Nair rush nana off stage and **** the blocks off of her. Squall can get stuffed by Bair, and egg toss stop blizzard rushes. When nana's dead, we can add damage to him and just get a grab > Usmash to not worry about landing consistent kills. We're not truly pressured by ICs since their options other than Uair are only annoying (of course grab being the main part of our worries and pivot grab being another possible danger for us only).

DDD is just pure camping until we can juggle him. He doesn't have consistent answers to egg camping, then the second he gets close to about mid range, wavebounced egglays will force him to spotdodge or move back to not get grabbed. The moment he gets grabbed, we can move away from him and camp again or we can pressure with Bair to add in quicker damage before he lands to grab us. Honestly, DDD's grab is the only move that is problematic for Yoshi (no one likes taking 30+ damage from just one grab). DDD's Bair is only annoying since we can go under it (Usmash), wait for it to end, or air grab it. This is just a slow, boring matchup where Yoshi doesn't have to commit to anything.

Oh yeah, the GW matchup is really dumb. Yoshi can't approach, but GW can't approach Yoshi either. Eggs completely stop all his aerials (sometimes GW will get lucky and ping eggs every now and then) and it's the only true method for Yoshi to rack damage without needing to commit to anything GW wants to do. If we run out of stage, then we can ledge camp or jump over GW and start over. GW simply wants people to jump into the **** for him to make matchups seem better for GW.

I'll move onto some of the newer stuff that has been discovered. However, if you wish for me to state my opinion on matchups, feel free to ask me.

Espy is very correct that we give good pressure to airborne opponents. If Yoshi have enough space in between his opponents (either while they're recovering offstage or needing to land on the ground), we can literally approach with SH or DJC Egg Toss. The egg is a little in front of Yoshi and completely covers Yoshi's blind spot until he regains control (from the upB cooldown). Given that people are hit with the egg, Yoshi is able to gain frame advantage from a few frames, to being able to use Fsmash (14), Fair (27), Dair (21), etc. The best thing about it is that knockback on egg toss is low enough to keep opponents from DI-ing until nearly low mid 100s. Even at that, Yoshi is still given frame advantage before opponents can even airdodge through the hitstun (but is normally reduced to Usmash and/or Uair). Opponents that decide to airdodge the egg will end up meeting with other various punishes. This method of pressure gives us much safer options against most of the cast when wanting to land a kill, plus it slightly adds to our gimp game. Now, if the egg were to be shielded, Yoshi's frame advantage varies down to being grab-able to being able to pivot grab them nearly before they're out of shield stun. As said by Airborne, spotdodges, Marth's UpB, and Bowser's upB can stop this, but it now changes the scenario to a true rock, paper, scissors game, where we have more benefits than the person shielding.

Yoshi's killing options were already stated, but I'm going to expand on them more. As everyone knows Usmash, Fsmash, Uair, DownB, and Nair are Yoshi's more common kills than Fair, Dsmash, and Dash Attack. Yoshi gets some good priority in Usmash, Fsmash, and Dash Attack due to all these moves having invincibility frames. Fsmash is naturally better to counter good spacing (though not as good as Bowser's Fsmash). Usmash is anti-air (which is obviously good in a game the promotes air time), and it's really good in terms of baiting. Yoshi's DACUS is normally not used often since he doesn't get any boost from his dash attack. However, Yoshi gains better spacing of Usmash due to his DACUS completely stopping his movement. Opponents wishing to grab a rushing opponent or wanting to spotdodge will get ***** by this and give us a slightly better chance of killing since Usmash is going to be slightly charged, and if they just shield the move, it's virtually unpunishable (not entirely sure what moves will be able to punish it, but it's not many) due to the hitbox hitting later than normal.

Yoshi's downB is another great kill move, but it's normally not worth spamming due to the amount of cooldown. So, you would think Yoshi won't use this whenever they see the opportunity, however, Yoshi's Jab actually gives properties to combo straight into DownB. I've found legitimate reasons to why Yoshi's Jab is such a great options when he's up close. Jab actually has two properties (sweetspot and non-sweetspot) that give different results depending on the amount of damage the opponent has taken. Naturally, Jab isn't great at low to mid percents because it can barely combo into it's own 2nd Jab, but as the opponent reaches higher percents (100+), Yoshi actually gains frame advantage which allows him to change up from just going into a 2nd jab. Certain percents give Yoshi the ability to Dsmash, DownB (!), and Ftilt. Those were just the non-sweetspotted(uSS) options (and telling the difference from uSS and SS). Sweetspotted jabs give much more frame advantage to the point where some characters can actually be Fsmashed out of. Plus, Yoshi can just choose to continue the "Jab lock" since a SSed Jab doesn't push the opponent away anymore (it just pops them up in place). Oh, it works on every character since Yoshi's jab (or one of his options) can hit again before the opponent regain control to do anything.

As mostly everyone has said and agreed, Yoshi's shield holds him from being higher. Not being able to powershield like the rest of the cast hurts his parrying game (no matter for normal shield and PSing, it's always 17 frames), but he's given much weirder properties to attempt to manage using his better. Given 17 frames to fully drop his shield is completely horrible, but he's able to spotdodge at any time during the cooldown frames. No one has implemented this kind of use since it's not the first thought that comes to mind, but I think this would slightly help manage being pressured more by giving a mock look that yoshi is vulnerable (cancel with spotdodge to dodge the next move), and if opponents don't attack during his cooldown, it gives us a chance to make a move like anyone else.

Now, I'm going to explain DR since I'm the one to find methods to make it easy, and to fully know what it's capable of. Dragonic Reverse is obviously there to add mobility to his ground game, but one of the real purposes of using it is to keep Yoshi from committing (which is obviously important). This reduces the chances of Yoshi to jump into the **** and see how opponents are going to react to certain scenarios. Plus, this gives him another tool that's helps his ground game by a ton. DR Pivot Grab. Naturally, it'll come out slower since DR has to be done first, but now it's not going to be a hit or get ***** option since Yoshi's pivot grab is really good. DR also slightly gives him the pull back needed to punished good spacing moves just exactly like or slightly better than Bowser's Fsmash (however, it's harder since it's requires more setup). Creating retreating Dtilts, Jabs, etc. increases his spacing and overall safeness. To also expand on it, Yoshi would be able to apply quicker pressure since he can change ground mobility from retreating an attack to approaching during the cooldown.

Technically, DR is hard since it forces you to change your controls to make it easy, but when you change your controls to at least have B as jump, you can easily slide your thumb down Y, B, and C-stick to do DR consistently. The change is a little annoying, but very possible to adjust and use efficiently. The true hard part about DR is the fact that there's a second type of DR (yes there's two types). The second form allows Yoshi to have 1 frame of heavy armor before canceling into the ground. Here's the information on it from my guide about DR:

NOTE: All of this is starts on frame 2 AFTER pushing jump (jump on frame 1).

1a. 4 frames = (3 - jump, 4 - attack) This is the earliest you can input the buttons
1b. 6 frames = (3 - jump, 6 - attack) This is the latest you can input the buttons
2. **9 frames = (8 - jump, 9 - attack) This is a special one compared to the rest. Explanation later.

The restrictions that will not allow this technique to register correctly are listed here:
1. Pushing two jump buttons at the same time will NOT register DJ
3. Cannot push jump within 2 frames (will register as one jump)
4. On frame 7, if you input the jump then, you will not get a DJ.
5. Cannot register attack on frame 7- 9 if jump is on frame 6
6. As long as attack is done on frame 6, the jump can be inputted anywhere from frame 3-5

To get the just of what I said above, as soon as you input your initial jump, you only have 5 frames to input the last two buttons. But now, you're wondering why it can be done within 9 frames. Well, it's because Yoshi's cancel has two different looks. The first cancel keeps Yoshi completely planted onto the ground where it only happens when you input the buttons before frame 7. The second cancel actually shows the DJ rings just before he touches the ground. This can only be achieved by inputting it from what was said above (following the **).

The second cancel is quite useful if you are someone who would like to take a dare at things. Since yoshi IS in the air before he lands back onto the ground, you will have only 1 frame where you will get Heavy Armor to absorb the damage and knockback from almost any attack while you counterattack freely. This is what most of you Yoshi mainers are probably getting if you use a method such as X, X, A or Y, Y, A. The thumb is normally not fast enough to tap these buttons quickly enough, and get the DJ and attack to come 1 frame after the other without exerting some amount of energy.

This is exactly why I claim DR is easy because implementing the first one does everything the second one can do except for the 1 frame for countering weak hits.

Couple DR with one of Yoshi's harder techs, platform canceling on static platforms. He's given some melee techs that no one can do (or are limited) in brawl. There's more techs that are being explored such as egg roll ledge cancel, instant downB ledge cancel, super jump applications, etc. I can't explain the usefulness since none are mastered yet, but it at least shows that his metagame isn't revolving around pure camping (Delta).

DMG is right that people just run into the ****. Yoshi, unfortunately, has slight problems when opponents won't commit to Yoshi's fakes. It makes stuff harder since Yoshi doesn't like losing leads. Yet, he's not completely struggling when this happens. It's forcing Yoshi to play a slower game than normal, while slowly adding pressure until Yoshi can get in a read and take momentum back. As it's been obvious by some people that has played against Yoshi (except for bad matchups), Yoshi can easily take momentum and hurt opponents before they can reset the field back to neutral.

I was totally agreeing with shiri's first post, then I realized that it was a second discussion and not the one from 08.

Then I read what most of the BBR members were saying, and I once again agree with shiri's first post lmao

Yoshi at his current level of progress does not belong in mid tier. If people like delta and poltergust (stocky sorry I haven't been keeping up with you lately since that one tourney where your mom took you away =/ ) CONTINUE to do well, AGAINST PLAYERS THAT KNOW YOSHI (emphasis on this), then I might change my mind, but I just don't think he has what it takes.

For the most part I agree with what DMG said.

I've been told that Poltergust plays aggressive. Plus, Delta only knows how to camp (he's admitted to having problems playing offensive). Ever since the boards died here, the mindset from everyone has been either '08 playstyles or '09 camping. I've constantly said that camping only doesn't work on everyone, and Yoshi needs a person that can play both styles well and is able to use his unorthodox methods for going against the rest of the cast.

But excessive detail on irrelevence=fail

I do think infinate jump is amazing, and it does have its place but to say thats where his potential lies is silly. He already has lots of basic tools that nobody is using to their fullest, and while certain yoshis are good at some stuff they dont utilize all of his basic options. Infinate jump is good to mix things up and as a neat gimmick in some matchups, but its not a staple at all, because yoshi has no good down air

Infinite jumping is a terrible AT simply because the timing is very predictable and you don't have a jump if you messed up (which you can't tell if you did a DJ aerial anyway when it was supposed to be the infinite jump). Not only that, but opponents can just sit there and look at you doing it and wait mid-range for you to mess up. The second you can screw up, you gave 20 frames to your opponent to punish. If people are not able to get around this technique, then I honestly question the validity of how good they are to assert Yoshi's game.

I feel like Neutral B is Yoshi's best move.

I'm just going to throw that out there and see what becomes of it.

It is his best move. Without being able to airgrab, Yoshi would end up bottom tier. He wouldn't be able to beat shields (the exception of pivot grabs) and people would have extremely less fear of having to spotdodge vs Yoshi since there's no real pressure.Yoshi does have gimmicks, but those gimmicks work in conjunction with the rest of his moveset. Yoshi's entire moveset, properties, etc. are slight mirrors of other character's properties (I.E. Wario's air camping, Olimar's ground game, etc.).

 

[Deleted member]

I like your post scat.
2 things though:
Infinate jump:
Its really easy to tell when u got it right (and the timings mad easy).
I was messing around with it against mikehaze on picto, and i dont recall getting punished until i messed up. Its not like you are bound to keep doing it, you have an extra jump and you can do what you want, whether thats wasting clock, baiting and punishing, or just being silly (not like ive spent very long working on using it). It works even better against other characters that dont **** yoshis landing (works well on MK too if we have a lead).

I disagree with falco, yoshi raaaapes falco 80:20 true story.

 

[bigman40]

We have slight misunderstandings. Infinite jumping that I was talking about is being able to continue DJing in the air with all the aerials and airdodge. If you just mean airdodging around to keep the timing and just running away to get your opponent to approach, then I still don't see the reason of how it's useful at all (it's very gimmicky, and doesn't really work imo), but yes, the timing is slightly harder than Bower's but definitely easy to repeat. If you still think it has it's uses, then show me some proof. I founded it long time ago (I think it was in '09) and stopped trying to learn it due to the reason I stated.

I honestly think superjump has better applications than infinite jumping due to the fact that Yoshi's superjump allows him to run away from pressure situations with his maximum air speed (and you still have your jump to keep your options). Superjump gives Yoshi a very slight height boost, and it allows him to go really far off stage to chase opponents.

As for the Falco MU, I expected controversy since most Yoshi's have different opinions on it still. I think that as of now, Yoshi does lost to Falco, but we get better managing Falco's bad area (opponent's sitting in mid range), we'll be able to push the matchup to slightly losing.


Edit: Updated my post above to expand on DR.

 

[Poltergust]

Hey, I only play aggressively in match-ups that I HAVE to play aggressively in (like Snake, Falco, or any other character that can outcamp us). Otherwise, I'm very, very campy.

 

[bigman40]

Well, then you aided to Sharky's post in the fact that most of you guys play old style Yoshi's in a metagame where it's not the most efficient method anymore (they're still efficient on certain matchups though). That's probably why I don't continue looking for stuff or posting new information here since it's not being used.

'08 & '09 playstyles aren't getting us anywhere anymore.

 

[Poltergust]

But... I'm still incorporating strategies into my playstyle. I'm getting the instant down-b ledgehog down, and I'm using the SH Egg Toss for frame traps more and more often. I'm also currently working on that instant ledge get-up, but it's sort of hard with a laggy TV, so I can only really do that at smashfests and stuff. =/

I don't just blindly rush in when I do go aggressive, either. That's suicide against a multitude of characters. I play smart when I'm offensive.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

POLTERGUST, WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT 3:21 AM?!? DON'T YOU HAVE CLASS TOMORROW?

Jesus Polt, you leave Florida and you break out. Who are you going to be by the time we see you again (MLG DC :D) It'll be fun.

 

[Purple]

-snip-

 

[bigman40]

You know, instead of quoting the entire post to make it obvious that you're trolling me, you should say something like "Too long of a post" or some shiz, but hey, I never expected you to read it nub =P

 

[Purple]

You know I read that wall *****. :'D. I don't hate on my fam.

 

[Poltergust]

POLTERGUST, WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT 3:21 AM?!? DON'T YOU HAVE CLASS TOMORROW?

Jesus Polt, you leave Florida and you break out. Who are you going to be by the time we see you again (MLG DC :D) It'll be fun.

Firstly, it was 2:31 AM. Secondly, my classes on Mondays and Wednesdays don't start until 1:00 PM.

 

[Airborne]

I know this would seem a bit drastic, as well as taking a lot of work, but do you think we could somehow salvage the current ratios for all MU's on the tier list from Sheik to Yoshi? I want to compare overall ratios in that margin in order to compare ranking among that block of characters.