BBR Weekly Character Discussion #31: Captain Falcon

[The Real Inferno]

Agreed, utilt and spaced bair beats tornado as well. You can also dair spike MK out of it for what it's worth.

Dude. You can KNEE OF JUSTICE MK out of Tornado. I've seen it happen. In tournament. It was glorious.

 

[lordhelmet]

Dude. You can KNEE OF JUSTICE MK out of Tornado. I've seen it happen. In tournament. It was glorious.

It's possible lol. The thing is Knee only sweetspots on frame 14...

The flub hitbox is bigger so you can probably flub him out, too.

Regarding Wario, I know everyone doubts the MU is near-even but it is lol. We also have a grab release > footstool > fast fall first hit nair > jab > regrab and repeat infinite on him. Hard to time but I'm 90% sure it's inescapable.

 

[mlorenzo]

I'm surprise that some of the bbr were right about falcon. So far I agree with what Lodhelmet had posted. One good thing about Falcon is that he doesn't have any bad stages.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I think the problem with Falcon is that most Falcon users want to be mainly instead of campy.

This is perhaps the most notable post I seen made so far. Actually, almost everything posted on the first page is completely accurate, but this one right here states it all.

The reason that Captain Falcon isn't making any progress is because people are using him for showing off rather than being competitive. Falcon is a joke character to most, he was the worst character in the game at one point, had no priority and every other degrading factor in the book listed on him. The only thing that Falcon had that was decent was his speed and people failed to realize that his ability to keep within a character's comfort zone with a defensive, NOT OFFENSIVE, style of play would prove to be useful.

Someone posted about Falcon giving Meta Knight a run for his money, no. That's one thing I have to disagree with. Falcon does have his grab release shenanigans on Meta Knight, but considering him even semi-useful against him in competitive play? That's a ridiculous assumption until we discover something potentially useful against him other than shield out of dash.

Wario? Yes, we're currently on the borderline of being a legit, even match-up with Wario because even with his superior aerial spacing, he can't pressure Falcon enough to avoid getting grabbed and punished with up+b to build damage- and a knee to KO. Falcon's Dash -> Shield -> Buffered Dash Grab limits Wario's abilities to safely aerial pressure and retreat with his spacing. Rinse and repeat, no matter how you look at it, Wario is limited in that sense. He can keep us pressured with Nair more effectively, but overall, Falcon has an easy time keeping that match-up under wraps.


Ike, Yoshi, Jigglypuff, Samus, the remainder of the low tiers, I apologize, but I'm confused rather or not you're discussing their overall potential against other characters or their match-ups with one another in general? How would a low tier tournament prove much at all? I know how we SHOULD be looking at this, but people seem to be posting on rather Falcon can beat the stated characters or not (from the following responses).

That being said, I believe Ike has a slight advantage over Falcon statistic wise. Yoshi is probably right below, or even with Falcon. Jigglypuff, might be even; I know she's good in some higher tier match-ups, but some characters completely wreck her, as they can to Falcon. Samus, debatable. Samus definitely has potential but she revolves around a pretty predictable projectile game and has low kill potential, but she can combo and keep opponents pressured- and has some interesting setups and combos, but she's slightly lacking.


People who are still taking priority into consideration should have already quit this game. Even the facts about Falcon's priority are wrong. He does have priority in a lot of his attacks, though I don't see why anyone would abuse using the attacks that actually have them. Falcon isn't suppose to be played aggressively, so he doesn't really need to worry about his 'God-awful' priority, now does he? He has a jab, raptor boost, up tilt, aerials and a grab- which almost completely eliminates that statistic unless he's ACTUALLY trying to punish or clash with something with an immediate Falcon Kick. Which as odd as it sounds, I actually use Falcon Kick when some projectiles are coming at me. [Ex. Link, TL's projectiles]


Joel and TheRealInferno have their facts straight. Those are some of the principles that our board has been focusing on within the course of the past several months, so I have absolutely no objections with their stated knowledge.

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm not posting names, but falcon doesnt beat mario, lol

 

[Browny]

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. First of all, Falcon has the 5th best air speed in the game. Falcon has more range than Sonic and priority is a myth. Falcon may be a bit slower frame-wise, but good Falcons aren't going to use his laggy moves. I'll have to look at Sonic's frames but I don't think he beats a frame 3 jab, and a frame 6 uair.

As I do have some bias... I'm going to call you out here.

Sonics best moves are all reasonably fast as oppose to falcons who I am of the belief possesses one of the slowest average attack speeds.
From SL's thread, Sonic has dash attack 5, uair 5, fair 5, ftilt 6, dtilt 6, bair 13, fsmash 18 as his most used attacks. Sure he has faster attacks like jab 3, nair 6 but they are rarely used anyway. If you could do the same for falcon that would be helpful. Because when I look at falcons data now for what I think are his best attacks, I still think Sonic 'beats' a 3 frame jab and a frame 6 uair by quite a bit.

Dead wrong. Please check the facts before spewing garbage out of your mouth. Sonic is 6th and Falcon is 5th for aerial speed.

QFT

Don't really believe the disjoint part I'll have to check though, look in my guide to see the hitbubbles for Falcon (they're collapsed in the moveset analysis.

Dont believe the hitbubble pics. First, they are not accurate in showing their size (proven) and second, with no way to visualise the hurtbox outside of the dangerous assumption that the hurtbox is entirely connected to the body means those images are quite useless for arguing on disjoints.

anyway... All this talk of a campy falcon. Ive seen Allys falcon plenty of times, is that an indication of campy? Can someone link any vids which prove how successful this playstyle actually is?

 

[Red Arremer]

Agree with this as well, Falcon ain't mid tier though.

I meant borderline mid tier in the sense of being on top of low tier.

 

[Psychoace]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLHG96Lr2fI

Take this video with a grain of salt.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Psychoace posted it before I did.
That's a perfect example of how Falcon should be played.

 

[Zeallyx]

Psychoace posted it before I did.
That's a perfect example of how Falcon should be played.

No its not .

 

[Luxor]

Why is everbody saying Falcon's attacks come out slow? He's no Luigi/Fox/Sheik/MK, but his attacks aren't terrible. Check that frame data thread me and lordhelmet made.

 

[Browny]

Why is everbody saying Falcon's attacks come out slow? He's no Luigi/Fox/Sheik/MK, but his attacks aren't terrible. Check that frame data thread me and lordhelmet made.

Because they do? Who is slower?

all of his tilts and smashes are way above average with his ftilt the only one approaching average speed. uair and nair are his only aerials which are quick and bair is only average.

Ganon, bowser and Ike may be slower but thats all I think :/

 

[lordhelmet]

I stand corrected on Sonic's frame data. But the fact remains that neither character has significant disjoint to call the other out. Though I would give the disjoint to Falcon because of back air and up tilt mainly.

And 2Knee, please don't be ******** in this thread. You can do that in the Match-Up Discussion (though I'd prefer you to stick to Social).

I have a ton of Ally vids in my guide under char specific, I'll try to fetch some just for you. I wish I had some recent offline videos of my Falcon but sadly I don't *shrug*.

Edit:

SSBB: Krystedez (Wario) vs Ally (Captain Falcon); Bracket Match [3/3]

This is a really good example as well, as you can see Ally only uses Falcon's safe moves, and uses the slower moves to punish.

 

[Zeallyx]

nly.

And 2Knee, please don't be ******** in this thread. You can do that in the Match-Up Discussion (though I'd prefer you to stick to Social).

starting off with a falcon kick against MK isnt really the way 2 go

 

[lordhelmet]

starting off with a falcon kick against MK isnt really the way 2 go

It's risky but not "not the way 2 go" he was probably thinking M2K would nado.

 

[Zeallyx]

It's risky but not "not the way 2 go" he was probably thinking M2K would nado.

Yes it is.

Even if he'd nado, he'd get punished.

And hyping a campy falcon and then promoting a risky playstyle is silly

 

[lordhelmet]

Yes it is.

Even if he'd nado, he'd get punished.

And hyping a campy falcon and then promoting a risky playstyle is silly

?

He did one risky move, hell for all we know his fingers might have slipped. Freaking out and trying to poke holes in my argument over it is ridiculous. Go screw around in the Ganon Boards or something.

 

[Zeallyx]

?

He did one risky move, hell for all we know his fingers might have slipped. Freaking out and trying to poke holes in my argument over it is ridiculous. Go screw around in the Ganon Boards or something.

lol I hit a string.

Just stick to your story bro.

And I couldnt care less about your arguement.
I havent even read your posts in here =P

But I do know what they consist of.

 

[Lionman]

Personally, being a competitive falcon main since brawl came out in Europe, I think falcon has too many unfavourable match-ups, not to say impossible, for example a good metaknight is impossible to beat to falcon and even then normal mks can be troublesome because of how stupid the match-up is, if we want to talk about serious falcon we should look at low tiers.

In low tiers I see most match-ups as even and in our favour, although I see some hard ones as well, for example Ike or Jigglypuff. My best match-up is Ike and I really know how hard it is, Rydle 3 stocked Ally at Bushido, and even if Ally finally beat Rydle in Losers finals, that match shows how dangerous Ike can be if you aren't careful, same for the rest of match-ups.

Talking about Falcon overall, I can't say I'm better than Ally, but I've employed much more time in studying it's possibilities, and even if I can't apply them as well as Ally does ( I haven't played that much lately), I know a good falcon can cause serious trouble to warios or marths ( although he'll have it really hard to beat top players of said characters)

Falcon's main advantage isn't his speed, neither his killing power nor something like that, it's the lack of knowledge of the match-up by most people and him being known as a joke character. I've beat plenty of people because of this, and even if this can't rise falcon in the tier list I still think Falcon is a kinda dangerous character to someone who doesn't know how it works.

I'd like to see falcon rise some spots in the tier list, I want people to see him as a serious character, not like a joke to do youtube videos with falcon punches.



Thanks Marcbri for translating my opinion

 

[lordhelmet]

Wise words from Lionman, someone agrees that Falcon is top of low tier ;P

 

[Lionman]

Wise words from Lionman, someone agrees that Falcon is top of low tier ;P

I think Zelda is the queen of low tiers

JuJuX <3

 

[lordhelmet]

Ouch, you *******!

Have you ever played Jujux?? I assume he knew the Falcon-Zelda MU better than Ally did, and Ally didn't adapt fast enough. Watch game 3 and you'll see what you're supposed to do.

Because I do think Falcon beats Zelda, you just gotta know what to do :D

Edit: ****it I keep getting trolled by Spanish people T_T

 

[Lionman]

Ouch, you *******!

Have you ever played Jujux?? I assume he knew the Falcon-Zelda MU better than Ally did, and Ally didn't adapt fast enough. Watch game 3 and you'll see what you're supposed to do.

Because I do think Falcon beats Zelda, you just gotta know what to do :D

I was joking.

Ally did bad there

In my opinion Falcon isnt the best low tier

PD: I dont want to disturb Marcbri to make another big post

 

[Zeallyx]

Personally, being a competitive falcon main since brawl came out in Europe, I think falcon has too many unfavourable match-ups, not to say impossible, for example a good metaknight is impossible to beat to falcon and even then normal mks can be troublesome because of how stupid the match-up is, if we want to talk about serious falcon we should look at low tiers.

This supports falcon not really rising on teh tier list =P

In low tiers I see most match-ups as even and in our favour, although I see some hard ones as well, for example Ike or Jigglypuff. My best match-up is Ike and I really know how hard it is, Rydle 3 stocked Ally at Bushido, and even if Ally finally beat Rydle in Losers finals, that match shows how dangerous Ike can be if you aren't careful, same for the rest of match-ups.

True.

Talking about Falcon overall, I can't say I'm better than Ally, but I've employed much more time in studying it's possibilities, and even if I can't apply them as well as Ally does ( I haven't played that much lately), I know a good falcon can cause serious trouble to warios or marths ( although he'll have it really hard to beat top players of said characters)

Its risky to say you've spend more time on falcon than ally. You cant really say that.

But to the point: I agree on falcon beeing able to cause trouble. But causing trouble doesnt net you a higher spot on the tier list. Though, offcourse, the understanding of causing trouble can vary from person to person, but I am quite sure we arent talking about taking something like two stocks off of said character, consistently.

Falcon's main advantage isn't his speed, neither his killing power nor something like that, it's the lack of knowledge of the match-up by most people and him being known as a joke character. I've beat plenty of people because of this, and even if this can't rise falcon in the tier list I still think Falcon is a kinda dangerous character to someone who doesn't know how it works.

Saying that also supports falcon not rising on the tier list, as that has 0 influence on the matchup ratios and overall judgement in regard to tier placement.

I'd like to see falcon rise some spots in the tier list, I want people to see him as a serious character, not like a joke to do youtube videos with falcon punches.

Although I dont see that happening, I have to add, after all this time:

1. Ally
2. Rebaz
3. Lionman.

And my bias towards rebaz is eternal, so you can consider yourself second best (imo). =P

 

[lordhelmet]

Rebaz was amazing for his time, but he's just not good anymore.

1. Ally
2. Willz
3. Lionman
4. No one has stepped it up enough to claim 4th

If Lionman comes back and steps it back up I think he can take 2nd from Willz (mainly because Willz isn't a true Falcon main).

 

[Zeallyx]

Rebaz was amazing for his time, but he's just not good anymore.

1. Ally
2. Willz
3. Lionman
4. No one has stepped it up enough to claim 4th

If Lionman comes back and steps it back up I think he can take 2nd from Willz (mainly because Willz isn't a true Falcon main).

Then we finally agree on something.

But in actuality it is:

1. Ally
2. Lionman
3. Rebaz
4. Champ

 

[lordhelmet]

Champ hasn't played since like 08 >_>

Rebaz quit, too. All of the greats quit. I don't even know how much longer Willz is going to play.

 

[Lionman]

Ally is better than me because he has more tournament experience than me. and placed well in most of low tier tourneys.

Ally beat some good top players with Falcon but he is a Snake mainer, i use Falcon in every match, Ally only for MM or low tiers, not important fact.

0: Willz
1,2: Ally & Lionman (I think we are really close, he is better)
3: Rebaz (Because he is retired)
4,5: Rydle, Mr.R,
6...: (Silent Spectre, Champ and other retired guys)

I dont know any American Falcon, well the guys above me are american falcons but i dont know how they play

 

[The Real Inferno]

I'm fourth. I'm totally serious lol

 

[Red Arremer]

Wise words from Lionman, someone agrees that Falcon is top of low tier ;P

Why am I ignored? ;_;

 

[Lionman]

I'm fourth. I'm totally serious lol

I trust you

 

[lordhelmet]

I wasn't saying Lion was the only one xD

Infern you got any videos? 4th is like a multi-way tie between me, Darky, Acedude, Rule 34, Player-3, etc. None of us have proved to be better than the other or have caused any real upsets. Hopefully I can start performing better at tournaments (smirk).

 

[The Real Inferno]

I was joking, though my Falcon is very good. People still talk about my Falcon ditto with Ally. Someone I didn't know the other day was like "You're the real inferno! I saw that match, it was awesome." The stuff manly legends are made of. I rarely play him in tournament though unless I'm just being a complete **** and want to rub somebody's face in it.

 

[lordhelmet]

Using him as a secondary counts as far as I care.

Ally/Willz/P3 all use him as a secondary.

 

[The Real Inferno]

You should know that I used to main Random in tournament. I can run half the cast in tournament when I feel like it. Falcon isn't very high on that list, since I always have a better option to go to. I've played him against some Wario mains, and I ran him against UTDZac once.

Edit: Anyway I'm going to bed now lol

 

[Zeallyx]

Champ hasn't played since like 08 >_>

Rebaz quit, too. All of the greats quit. I don't even know how much longer Willz is going to play.

No matter

Champ da bess

 

[Darky-Sama]

You're all idiots.
The best Falcons are obviously:
1.) Douglas Jay
2.) Rick Wheeler
3.) Blood Falcon
4.) Black Shadow

Get your facts straight.

That being said, Falcon has the potential to be higher. I can see him making borderline mid-tier if more people repped him properly.

 

[Ramzeh]

Willz Says:

Christ, the BBR is full of ****ing idiots. It's sad that only 2 members know what the **** they're on about, while people like AA and ShadowLink just sound ARE ********.

BBR is a joke.

DATZ WHY YO NEED ME

Unfortunately I'm banned for eternity though, so let someone like lordy or darky in because they're somewhat smart and know **** about C.Falcon.

 

[Lionman]

Nice read Ramzeh

 

[Ramzeh]

lion this is willz lol