BBR Weekly Character Discussion #31: Captain Falcon

[Lionman]

The best falcon ever

 

[Ramzeh]

cheers bro

<3

no homo

 

[teluoborg]

Oh I'm late but **** it. Let's make an organized post.

Character traits
Good points : very good mobility and survivability
Bad points : walk speed and initial dash suck. Falcon is also tall enough to whiff jabs/grabs on a standing Kirby (which is really infuriating).


Options
Uair is clearly Falcon's only viable move. Other moves (even jab) are matchup dependant.

Good points
-mix ups : he can easily substitute an attack with another one due to them having similar hitboxes.
-punishing : all of Falcon's moves seem to have been created with punishing in mind, but dash attack stands out of the crowd. It's not powerful but it's fast, has decent range and places the enemy in the air, which is the spot you want people to be when you're Falcon.

Bad points
-Falcon is unsafe : the lack of safe approaches means he's forced to mix up forever, the lack of OOS options means he's forced to run away most of the time when he succesfully shielded a hit (unless the opponent screws up his spacing ofc), and only a few of his moves are safe on shield (Uair, Bair, Jab and Dsmash).
All this added to the fact that some moves like FK are punishable ON HIT make Falcon bad at building, maintaining or reversing momentum.


Matchups
Falcon has hard/desperate matchups against most of the high/tops. I know for sure that Falco MK and Oli are hopeless, that DDD is frustrating. The ones I actually find the less threatening are Wario and Marth.
Also I've got close to no experience against mid/low tiers so I won't elaborate on that.


Playstyles
Falcon has to switch playstyles depending on matchups, so no playstyle is the best.
Except of course "playing safe" and "not being ********", but that's universal.


Conclusion

Falcon is bad and he's fine in the middle of low tier.

 

[lordhelmet]

Oh I'm late but **** it. Let's make an organized post.

Character traits
Good points : very good mobility, survivability, and decent combo ability. Not too bad at gimping either.

Bad points : Falcon gets gimped fairly easily (luckily his up-b is a grab or we'd really get screwed over), mediocre KO potential, suffers many CGs, and is a big target.


Options
Uair, bair, and jab are his best moves. Why is this section here anyway?

Good points
-mix ups : he can easily substitute an attack with another one due to them having similar hitboxes.
-punishing : all of Falcon's moves seem to have been created with punishing in mind, but dash attack stands out of the crowd. It's not powerful but it's fast, has decent range and places the enemy in the air, which is the spot you want people to be when you're Falcon.

Bad points
-Falcon is unsafe : the lack of safe approaches means he's forced to mix up forever, the lack of OOS options means he's forced to run away most of the time when he succesfully shielded a hit (unless the opponent screws up his spacing ofc), and only a few of his moves are safe on shield (Uair, Bair, Jab. Dsmash, and Raptor Boost).
All this added to the fact that some moves like FK are punishable ON HIT (at very low percents) just mean that you don't do stupid attacks when the opponent is at 0%.


Matchups
Falcon has hard/desperate matchups against many of the top tiers. I know for sure that Falco MK and Oli are almost hopeless.


Playstyles
Falcon has to switch playstyles depending on matchups, so no playstyle is the best.
Except of course "playing safe" and "not being ********", but that's universal.


Conclusion

Falcon is bad but good enough to be top of low tier.

Fixed .

 

[teluoborg]

Uh Falcon isn't easily gimped, you just have to do like everything else (aka mix up). And I'm not worried about his KO potential since he has above average kb growth. He's just no Olimar.

And hum, FK gets punished until like 120%, raptor boost gets punished on shield like nothing (in fact it doesn't have to be shielded, the hitbox comes out so slowly that anything will beat it).

 

[lordhelmet]

I asked Luxor to get the block advantage on RB because when you RB someone they don't have much time at all. They'll try to shield grab it which never works and you get a free jab in. Go ahead and RB a shield, it will end well for you almost every time.

FK doesn't gets 'til 120%? lolwut, first of all it depends on which hitbox you hit with and second of all the worst would be 40%.

 

[teluoborg]

What I mean is RB can be punished before it hits.
Srsly don't do it on shields.

 

[Player-3]

i was going to post something but lordhelmet and lionman pretty much covered it


and what willz said about the bbr being dumb about falcon


should let me/lordy/darky/telu in imo imo imo imo


even though telu underrates falcons flub knee (it's seriously a legit move guize)



campy defensive marth beats falcon 90-10 idk why lion thinks he does good LOLOLOL

 

[Lionman]

Most Marths go agressive against Falcon because he is a Joke

 

[Player-3]

yes


and then falcon has a chance

but i'm saying if marth tried to win it's over before it starts LOL

 

[lordhelmet]

P3 I'll be happy to MM your Marth when I go to GA :3

Not saying that will happen soon, but I do plan on going one of these days!!!!!

PS: I won't bet much because I will probably lose

 

[Browny]

I stand corrected on Sonic's frame data. But the fact remains that neither character has significant disjoint to call the other out. Though I would give the disjoint to Falcon because of back air and up tilt mainly.

http://i54.tinypic.com/359wd2o.jpg

I dont know about falcons uptilt, but I find it hard to believe his b-air would beat that disjoint lol

 

[lordhelmet]

That bair.

Utilt would definitely beat it. Our bair could beat it but probably not, it would be close.

And if you guys are using bair for spacing then good luck getting that KO

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon is bad, but not as bad as some people would say.

He can definitely land grabs, and his grabs are good positional setup into whatever else Falcon wants. People gotta realize that one of Falcon's best moves is U-throw. His physics are almost too good for juggles, in his ability to pretty much autobait and punish an airdodge with his U-air. He has the run mobility to chase horizontally, and the fallspeed to chase vertically. Given that he basically has fairly free damage on virtually the entire cast after putting them in the air.

His B-air and D-smash and to a lesser extent U-tilt are safe kill moves. U-air is a "safe kill move" if it somehow is fresh enough, which it never is unless he dies or unless the opponent is like over 170%. Reverse D-smash deserves mention due to the leanback actually being able to bait a lot of spacers and due to the power and relative safety of the move in general.

And he has an awesome ability to combo into Jab1 after Jab3. Good against all those players who fail to SDI everything.

Falcon would be really really good in this game if his N-air had Melee duration. The move is still good in this game, but CANNOT be used as an approach against the majority of the cast due to its poor hitboxes.

Aside from that I think Falcon works and has some good matchups, and that he's better than Bowser.

 

[Zeallyx]

Falcon is bad, but not as bad as some people would say.

He can definitely land grabs, and his grabs are good positional setup into whatever else Falcon wants. People gotta realize that one of Falcon's best moves is U-throw. His physics are almost too good for juggles, in his ability to pretty much autobait and punish an airdodge with his U-air. He has the run mobility to chase horizontally, and the fallspeed to chase vertically. Given that he basically has fairly free damage on virtually the entire cast after putting them in the air.

But brawl is bad for juggles. So, so is falcon.
So that doesnt leave much 'falcon wants' =P

And please dont forget that punishing airdodges isnt really reliable at all, and doesnt really mean much. Granted, it can be used and can work, but it doesnt make or break anything.

And about the free damage when the opponent is in the air: no.
That doesnt make any sense.

His B-air and D-smash and to a lesser extent U-tilt are safe kill moves. U-air is a "safe kill move" if it somehow is fresh enough, which it never is unless he dies or unless the opponent is like over 170%. Reverse D-smash deserves mention due to the leanback actually being able to bait a lot of spacers and due to the power and relative safety of the move in general.

Dsmash a safe kill move? Uair and Bair, and to a lesser extent, Utilt, indeed, but Dsmash? nah.

You've got the wrong idea about Dsmash. It has its uses, but you overhype it a little.

And he has an awesome ability to combo into Jab1 after Jab3. Good against all those players who fail to SDI everything.

Which is no one in the highest level of lay/competitive play.

Falcon would be really really good in this game if his N-air had Melee duration. The move is still good in this game, but CANNOT be used as an approach against the majority of the cast due to its poor hitboxes.

Nair>Dsmash =P

Aside from that I think Falcon works and has some good matchups, and that he's better than Bowser.

Which good matchups?

And nah man, bowser got thiz.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon is really good against Wario (a few high level Wario users saying Falcon advantage), and kinda can do things against Snake. He also does pretty well against Donkey Kong, who I would suspect Falcon goes neutral with. Oh and he also is good against ROB (admittedly he has a loop on ROB). Bowser honestly...is just not exploited enough. His recovery is probably the worst in the game, and he's really easily edgetrapped.

I think Falcon should land a consecutive hit after putting someone above him over 50% of the time personally, which is what I consider good. He has the physics to properly option limit people above him.

And D-smash is pretty safe on block, and the range on it makes it hard for most characters to approach safely. imo it's a pretty easy move to get away with, especially the 2nd hit.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Sonic is disjointed but he has poor control over his pressure game compared to Falcon. Probably more viable overall, but Sonic actually has some decent tools and setups on characters that Falcon doesn't.

Falcon's downsmash is pretty disjointed too, btw. For some reason, if a character is in the air, they end up getting hit if they're anywhere near the height of his head when the first extension of his downsmash is released. I'm not sure about it's horizontal range being disjointed, but that's pretty large either way. It's strange though, I could have sworn the hit-bubble video that was created showed his downsmash as pretty normal, but yeah. It definitely has some disjunction to it.

I can't agree that he's better than Bowser though. Bowser is terrible in a whole lot of aspects, but his range and defensive options are ridiculously superior. He also has the ability to rack up damage quickly and his KO potential is obviously better than Falcons'. But I won't argue with it here. Bowser is certainly no DK though, so it is a possibility, I suppose.

 

[Zeallyx]

Falcon is really good against Wario (a few high level Wario users saying Falcon advantage), and kinda can do things against Snake. He also does pretty well against Donkey Kong, who I would suspect Falcon goes neutral with. Oh and he also is good against ROB (admittedly he has a loop on ROB). Bowser honestly...is just not exploited enough. His recovery is probably the worst in the game, and he's really easily edgetrapped.

I think Falcon should land a consecutive hit after putting someone above him over 50% of the time personally, which is what I consider good. He has the physics to properly option limit people above him.

And D-smash is pretty safe on block, and the range on it makes it hard for most characters to approach safely. imo it's a pretty easy move to get away with, especially the 2nd hit.

The loop on ROB isnt even near enough to make the matchup that much better.

Same with the grab release on wario. (Plus warios aerials and mobility **** falcon)

And the options falcon have just dont beat
A. other characters options, most of the time
B. Brawl

And Dsmash isnt really safe on block, plus it is very punishable. (not only on block).

 

[teluoborg]

The first hit of Dsmash is safe on block but not on whiff/dodge. And it's pretty wtf-ly disjointed

And P3 I never ever underrated flub knee. It has very good uses (mainly shield stab and gimp) but is still unsafe.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

The loop on ROB isnt even near enough to make the matchup that much better.

Same with the grab release on wario. (Plus falcons aerials and mobility **** wario)

fixed and quit trolling. falcon has amazing air speed and correct me if i'm wrong he is only behind yoshi, jiggs, wario and i think wolf. Warios ability to air camp in this MU goes to hell because falcon has the air and ground speed to punish wario hard. each grab can lead to 20 plus damage. A grab and a few pummels plus a f smash (forget whether it needs to be studder stepped or not) equals 20+ damage. Grab release to knee death at 110 to 120 is also a serious factor.


also take a look at this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281251 and look at mid-tier singles. I know its Ally but if captain falcon is so bad then he would not have any options against some characters.

 

[lordhelmet]

Falcon does do pretty well against ROB, with or without that funny loop.

And the grab release on Wario is what makes the match-up even, if we didn't have that it would be 40-60 or maybe even 35-65.

Dsmash is safe on block, it pushes them way too far to punish us. Unless maybe they're Sonic.

I agree with what both A2 and Darky said.

Edit: Dang Mega, that's ****ing **** lol. Most of Falcons mid-tier MUs are around 60-40, a few like Weegee that are 35-65.

 

[Zeallyx]

fixed and quit trolling. falcon has amazing air speed and correct me if i'm wrong he is only behind yoshi, jiggs, wario and i think wolf. Warios ability to air camp in this MU goes to hell because falcon has the air and ground speed to punish wario hard. each grab can lead to 20 plus damage. A grab and a few pummels plus a f smash (forget whether it needs to be studder stepped or not) equals 20+ damage. Grab release to knee death at 110 to 120 is also a serious factor.


also take a look at this thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281251 and look at mid-tier singles. I know its Ally but if captain falcon is so bad then he would not have any options against some characters.

No.

You are wrong.

Falcon actually has a hard time grabbing wario, and wario has the mobility to keep falcon @ bay.

Not to mention wario's bite.

Wario is an all round better character, which falcon cant cope with. And the grab release shenanigans only get falcon so far. Which isnt enough.

But even dispite falcons trouble with grabbing wario, falcon will get grabs in. But not a decisive amount.

But, with the knowledge of grabs beeing hard but not impossible, the 110 grab release->Fair ko is a nice feat.

And ROB beats falcon + has camping shenanigans.

 

[smashkng]

I think Falcon's Dsmash isn't safe on PS at all though, at least not the 1st Kick.

 

[Player-3]

P3 I'll be happy to MM your Marth when I go to GA :3

Not saying that will happen soon, but I do plan on going one of these days!!!!!

PS: I won't bet much because I will get 3 stocked

fix'd


lololololo

 

[lordhelmet]

Nothing is safe on PS xD

2Knee you don't even play this game how do you know how hard it is to grab Wario? Wario's bite is laggy and easily punishable. The two reasons the Wario MU is so good is we can stop all of his approaches with uair. That on top of the obvious GR stuffz.

 

[Tech-Nelium the Shark]

Nothing is safe on PS xD

little known fact falco's silent laser leaves him with a +3 frame advantage

 

[lordhelmet]

Projectiles don't count

 

[Zeallyx]

2Knee you don't even play this game how do you know how hard it is to grab Wario? Wario's bite is laggy and easily punishable. The two reasons the Wario MU is so good is we can stop all of his approaches with uair. That on top of the obvious GR stuffz.

I do play this game, and I know. Getting grabs in on wario, is hard for falcon.

And if you say bite is laggy and easily punishable, same goes for falcons moves.

And stopping all his approaches may work on paper, but come on. Thats just silly.

You overrestimate falcons 'faster' moves.

 

[teluoborg]

little known fact falco's silent laser leaves him with a +3 frame advantage

+3 FA is on shield, not on PS. Check your facts next time.

 

[lordhelmet]

I do play this game, and I know. Getting grabs in on wario, is hard for falcon.

And if you say bite is laggy and easily punishable, same goes for falcons moves.

And stopping all his approaches may work on paper, but come on. Thats just silly.

You overrestimate falcons 'faster' moves.

I actually play this MU a lot I think I know what I'm talking about xD

I mean uair doesn't completely shut down Wario, but it does some heavy damage to Wario since he's always in the air. And you're not supposed to be using Falcon's laggy moves, that should be a given by now.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I personally don't think Falcon needs to grab Wario to actually give Wario a hard time. He has the ground mobility to make it very hard for Wario to space against Falcon, and between B-air and U-air (I personally recommend Falcon users practicing SH U-air oos for this matchup), he actually has decent enough options to consider walling Wario. Should Wario attempt to do anything fancy on the ground, he also runs into problems since Falcon's ground options are mostly better than Wario's.

And Bite doesn't really give Falcon problems if he's playing to camp this matchup.

And really Falcon users need to understand how useful their D-smash is. It's not the first hit that makes the move good. The 2nd hit is the one that makes this move have utility as a safe KO option. D-smash is fairly low lag, and what most people don't actually understand is that the 2nd hit has very massive range. When Falcon D-smashes, his entire body leans forward, and then he leans back and kicks. This mechanic can be abused to trick people into whiffing approaches and getting punished, which makes the 2nd hit VERY powerful as an anti-air (1st hit isn't terrible for anti-airs either). Option limiting rolls with D-smash is also pretty awesome, which you'll be doing against Pit and Lucario at the least. And generally I wouldn't worry about people (except Falco) spotdodging Smashes due to how unsafe that can be when you get into charging Smashes, which also makes them safer on block as well.

I trick people a lot into running into the 2nd hit of Ganon's D-smash, a move that basically has the same hitbox properties as Falcon's D-smash except it's slower and not quite as amazing in general. Falcon users need to use this tactic more imo. I have seen a lot of videos of Ally using D-smash extremely well, and I believe it's for the above reasons that Ally is able to get away with it.

 

[Chsal]

Is it really that hard to land a grab on Wario with CF?

CF's Jab comes out faster than Wario's moves and it can be cancelled into a grab.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[Darky-Sama]

No, you're not missing anything. You're absolutely right. Falcon can also land a grab by simply dashing -> shield (if he even needs to do so) -> buffered dash grab.

 

[Zeallyx]

I actually play this MU a lot I think I know what I'm talking about xD

I mean uair doesn't completely shut down Wario, but it does some heavy damage to Wario since he's always in the air. And you're not supposed to be using Falcon's laggy moves, that should be a given by now.

There was a time I played this matchup until it hurt =P

And I know one doesnt use the laggy moves, but the non laggy moves (aerials, namely, for this discussion) simply arent enough vs wario. (Nor are his non aerials)

No, you're not missing anything. You're absolutely right. Falcon can also land a grab by simply dashing -> shield (if he even needs to do so) -> buffered dash grab.

Are you forgetting you are fighting, in this situation, a very skilled player with enough knowledge using a character with more than enough to counter silly tactics like that.. =P

 

[Darky-Sama]

I'm talking about the Wario match-up. Skilled player or not, it doesn't take much for Falcon to get a grab on Wario. If you don't want to play defensive, if your grab misses, hold in the 'A' button, then try again. Problem solved.

...even though that was meant to be a joke, it probably would work decently. It definitely punishes spot-dodges that avoid your grab pretty well. I'd need to look at the frame data to see if it's worth considering 'very useful' though.

 

[Zeallyx]

I'm talking about the Wario match-up. Skilled player or not, it doesn't take much for Falcon to get a grab on Wario. If you don't want to play defensive, if your grab misses, hold in the 'A' button, then try again. Problem solved.

...even though that was meant to be a joke, it probably would work decently. It definitely punishes spot-dodges that avoid your grab pretty well. I'd need to look at the frame data to see if it's worth considering 'very useful' though.

No it won't.

For example: spotdodged grab = eat Fsmash.

And that's just one example.

 

[PZ]

dash dance, down taunt, camp, mix in some aerial camp, platform **** , punish, use any advantages in the mu at the right time, watch out for sakurai cuz he is out to get u b prepared(trips lol), and run away

GG

 

[Chsal]

No it won't.

For example: spotdodged grab = eat Fsmash.

And that's just one example.

Only if the Wario starts his dodge at least 2 frames or so before CF's grab, then buffers the Fsmash. Valid enough I guess.

Only grab after jabs then. Which beats everything Wario has unless you're shielding. Or if they read you.

Its not like you actually need to land every single grab anyway. Every one you land is about 20~%. Jabs(3%, 2% for second) + Pummels (2% ea) + Fsmash (19%). All at fresh. You don't take nearly as much as that on whiffing a grab.

 

[Zeallyx]

Only if the Wario starts his dodge at least 2 frames or so before CF's grab, then buffers the Fsmash. Valid enough I guess.

Only grab after jabs then. Which beats everything Wario has unless you're shielding. Or if they read you.

Its not like you actually need to land every single grab anyway. Every one you land is about 20~%. Jabs(3%, 2% for second) + Pummels (2% ea) + Fsmash (19%). All at fresh. You don't take nearly as much as that on whiffing a grab.

Implying jab shuts down wario is really silly.

Wario has more than enough to get around falcons jab.

 

[Chsal]

I'm not saying it shuts down Wario.

I'm saying if you ever are right next to him, jab should beat out everything. Otherwise its up to how well you can approach that close.