BBR Weekly Character Discussion #6: Kirby

[Overswarm]

Kirby MK is a stupid match up for Kirby, it's like Kirby is fighting himself, except he's better in every way and he has a sword!!!

This is exactly why MK gives Kirby a sword in all of their games right before they fight.

Overswarm shows no such mercy.

I don't see Kirby players steal powers in certain match ups. It would help a lot, especially if he steals a projectile

Kirby vs. Pikachu = meh.

Kirby with pika power vs. Pikachu = Get OWNED pika

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yeah...pikachu loses when kirby has the power, but we win it the same way if he doesn't have it.

 

[Overswarm]

Is it random when Kirby loses his power, or is there a certain amount of % needed to knock it out?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I think it is random, I've hit it out with a single jab before...and then not hit it out with a thunder.

 

[Overswarm]

Could it be cumulative?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I'm fairly sure it's random. I just got hit and lost it with 1 hit of tornado last night as soon as I swallowed MK's power.

Then I did it again and didn't lose it even after taking several Smashes... seems quite random to me, I dunno.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, it's completely random. You could get laser spanned by a Fox after taking his power, and you'll lose it in either the first hit, anywhere in between, or in the end when he gets bored. I dunno the exact % of the chances you have of losing it. From experiences, I would have to say somewhere along 10% - 25% chance of losing the copy ability.

Its a great asset to have, but in some MUs its too much of a hassle to get it. And even if we manage to get it, losing it randomly will just leave us back in square 1, so not many kirbies go for it. I could say lots of his matchups would go in his advantage if our copy abilities wouldn't get knocked out like that!

 

[Omni]

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1:19:00 - Chu doing Kirby vs. MK MM with Logic with a 1 stock deficit.. and winning, lol. This was this weekend at a Westminster tournament.


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0:03:00 - Chu vs. Korn (closest MK to beat Korn)
1:24:00 - Chu vs. Candy (uses MK twice, Snake once)

no footage of him slaughtering me or super slaughtering Sin

 

[ShadowLink84]

Could it be cumulative?

I had aways imagined that the higher the damage, the better chance Kirby has of losing a power he has copied.

 

[swordgard]

All i saw was 2 players getting dramatically outplayed in those vids omni.

 

[Praxis]

Wow, I didn't know Logic was that bad. It looked like my Metaknight. :/

 

[DMG]

Kirby is bad. That is all.

G&W is also definitely better than this character.

 

[Praxis]

Kirby is bad. That is all.

G&W is also definitely better than this character.

Nuh-uhhhh.

 

[OverLade]

LOL@Omni. Kirby vs MK is bad....

I played Chu in tourney and beat him solidly and without a hitch. I also played and beat YBM at MLG orlando solidly.

Kibry doesn't have anything in this matchup except hard reads and powershielding (which is up to the player, not the character). If you camp reverse fairs/dtilt/Ftilt and mix it up with occasional dash grabs and dash attacks Kirby can't do much at all. If he's in the air he's pretty much toast, just juggle and edguard him. Chu does that annoying side B thing recovering but it's more of a bluff than an effective tactic...

As far as the character otherwise, he's not too bad. His mix up game is pretty good.

 

[DMG]

G&W can plank, and he is more stage versatile. He has a better recovery and kills better. He also does more damage overall on his attacks, he has a projectile to use in some manner, better range/hitbox to hurtbox ratios, can Dthrow tech chase, has decent OOS options, etc.

I firmly think he is better than Kirby. Kirby is G&W predictable, x 10. With some worse options here and there.

 

[Kel]

. I also played and beat YBM at MLG orlando solidly.

Yes you did. However, Y.b.M is a Wiimote player and is garbage without the remote.

That's not to say the MU isn't in MK's favor, but Y.b.M has taken sets from Overswarm and I with Kirby in the past. Not so much recently, but it's a weird MU at first for MKs that don't know what they're doing. Getting hit by Fsmash at 80% is devastating. Y.b.M uses Zamus now against MKs. He's even taken a game off of M2K using her.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Yeah, YBM isn't nearly as good without a wii-mote.

 

[OverLade]

Yes you did. However, Y.b.M is a Wiimote player and is garbage without the remote.

That's not to say the MU isn't in MK's favor, but Y.b.M has taken sets from Overswarm and I with Kirby in the past. Not so much recently, but it's a weird MU at first for MKs that don't know what they're doing. Getting hit by Fsmash at 80% is devastating. Y.b.M uses Zamus now against MKs. He's even taken a game off of M2K using her.

Lol I'm sure he is much better but I played Chudat and beat him just as badly. The lag on MLG TV's hurts MK more than it hurts Kirby, which is the main reason I even had any trouble 2nd game (Punishing his roll habit was harder, plus I SD'd anyway). I dont' even feel like I really know the matchup but I know if you're losing games to a kirby player you're getting outplayed horribly. Just don't use shuttle loop and Tornado and you should almost never get hit by Fsmash outside of whiffing something fierce...

And I told YBM to use ZSS against me, I'm terrible at the matchup

 

[Kel]

Y.b.M has beaten Chu in dittos and stuff when they played. He is currently on hiatus and hasn't really been playing recently but Y.b.M might have been the best Kirby around for a while. I think Chu just gets more hype because he's got meat riders from melee and the EC. Ally and M2K used to claim they had more trouble with Y.b.M than any other kirby.

Going Zero suit wouldn't have changed the fact that he wouldn't have his controller haha. I'm not trying to get into an argument over who the best kirby is, I just want it to be known that my boy Y.b.M has an awesome Kirby, and saying you beat him easily at MLG would be like him fighting you when you're using a wiimote. It's just different under different circumstances.

 

[OverLade]

Meh, can't be helped then. I feel like Chu is a more Talented player but not playing as much could contribute to YBM being better. I think he's a great and really underrated player for sure, I just don't see any realistic reason for MK to lose to Kirby period though.

 

[TheTantalus]

Chu is pretty much top 3 smartest players in our region right now

NEO/Boss/Chu are brilliant with their characters and do things I would never think of, ever

 

[OverLade]

Chu is pretty much top 3 smartest players in our region right now

NEO/Boss/Chu are brilliant with their characters and do things I would never think of, ever

I agree and I think they're easily the most talented players in the region. I would've listed the same 3, probably followed by Candy.

Having many players mentally on that level is what really makes a region strong imo.

 

[gallax]

I wouldnt go as far to say that candy is brilliant with his character. Id say hes really good with nades and spacing with utilt. I mean i played against candy and beat him with my marth, ddd and snake against his snake and was able to win cuz i know how to maneuver around nades efficiently. But i would definitely agree that chu is brilliant.

 

[Shaya]

I feel personally that Marth struggles to get past Kirby...

His bair out-ranges marth's fair, and the hitbox for it stays out for EVER with a lot less cool down than you'd hope... and he destroys marth from grabs, and rolling is one of those things marth finds annoying (and kirby is one of those... roll... characters).

Bleh, I hate the kirby match up.

Kirby's dash grab is one of the best in the game though, no doubt.
He has epic grab combos and reads and great damage from them. Getting grabs on some characters may be complicated (MK), but it's [generally] easy to see how one player loses to Kirby and another annihilates him.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

...epic grab combos?

You mean F-throw Uair and thats it?

EPIC!!

Nothing is guaranteed after that, just SDI up and you are out of it.

 

[Shaya]

I think you truly over rate the fact that you have guaranteed chain grabs on most of the cast.

You know the fear you have when Meta Knight down throws you?
Kirby also has a down throw that puts you in an extremely terrible position.

Having a grab game that is easy/possible to have successful reads from is what I'm pointing out here.
I guess you didn't get the memo when people started using the term "combo" for more than just guaranteed re-pressing of the z button.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, most things in brawl aren't guaranteed. The fact that Kirby has two throws that put you at horrible positions, where he could read your reaction and follow it up with a number of options, is what makes Kirby's grab game what it is.

 

[Omni]

...epic grab combos?

You mean F-throw Uair and thats it?

EPIC!!

Nothing is guaranteed after that, just SDI up and you are out of it.

kirby also has d-throw to up-tilt x2 to b-air.

anyway, Chu wreaked havoc at this tournament we had in MD/VA. tourny or MM's he obliterated every single MK he played horribly. he was also doing extremely well against both ADHD and Ally (practically had the game during Game 3 until he got hard read trying to time out Ally).

kirby is really good tho. highly underrated and not used enough imo.

 

[DEHF]

kirby also has d-throw to up-tilt x2 to b-air.

anyway, Chu wreaked havoc at this tournament we had in MD/VA. tourny or MM's he obliterated every single MK he played horribly. he was also doing extremely well against both ADHD and Ally (practically had the game during Game 3 until he got hard read trying to time out Ally).

kirby is really good tho. highly underrated and not used enough imo.

Chu is just a very talented player, it doesn't get rid of the fact that MK vs. Kirby is a bad match up for Kirby.

It doesn't surprise me that Chu did well vs. Ally or ADHD, I don't think Diddy and Snake are horrible match ups for Kirby. Snake is one of those match ups that would be a lot easier for Kirby if he took their powers.

Kirby is one of those characters that would do better and there would probably be more of if MK wasn't around, but I don't think Kirby would do significantly better.

 

[TheTantalus]

We'll get you all the vids of Chus Kirby and that might help out on matchups, heh

 

[Crow!]

kirby also has d-throw to up-tilt x2 to b-air.

Three non-grab hits in a row? Sounds SDI-able to me.

kirby is really good tho. highly underrated and not used enough imo.

That's possible. He does have "why pick this character when you can pick MK?" syndrome pretty bad, especially since that their overall properties are pretty similar. Most of his truly unique moves just aren't that great in practice.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

After 40% F-throw doesn't really send you in a bad position unless the air is a bad position...

D-throw admittedly does send you in a pretty bad position, but at most he should be getting 1 hit out of it at mid %s.

 

[Omni]

That's possible. He does have "why pick this character when you can pick MK?" syndrome pretty bad, especially since that their overall properties are pretty similar. Most of his truly unique moves just aren't that great in practice.

their qualities are not that similar imo

 

[Kewkky]

Heh, Kirby with Snake's power is pretty freakin' awesome. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7587861&postcount=25

And I think Kirby's a character that doesn't look as good on paper, unless you have a player that knows how to use his moveset well enough, sort of seems as if he forces a plateau on his players. Lots of characters are like this, but Kirby is a character that's easy to master at a mid-level, and requires extra work to get to a higher level... Sorta like G&W in that there's a lot of not-good G&W players around and they don't know what to do to get as good as the higher-leveled G&W players. I mean, you could compare any Kirby around to the top Kirbies, and you'll notice a large difference between performances, same as within the G&W community.

 

[Overswarm]

kirby also has d-throw to up-tilt x2 to b-air.

anyway, Chu wreaked havoc at this tournament we had in MD/VA. tourny or MM's he obliterated every single MK he played horribly. he was also doing extremely well against both ADHD and Ally (practically had the game during Game 3 until he got hard read trying to time out Ally).

kirby is really good tho. highly underrated and not used enough imo.

Kirby is not good, and up-tilt x2 to bair doesn't work. You can SDI up twice and jump long before Kirby can bair you.

 

[Teran]

I think Kirby's about fine where he is.

His moveset and certain character traits are quite forgiving for people to pick him up. What with all the jumps, easy to learn combos/attack chains, a decent fsmash.

Thing is, Kirby's just well... okay. That's it, his strengths and weaknesses balance each other out pretty strongly. Balanced out characters are never tournament winners, they're ones that are easy to pick up, easy to do well with, but they never excel. Kirby's Swallow can give him unique matchup advantages (don't necessarily mean make the matchup actually in his favour but definitely cause a big shift), and I think his ability to do very well against Falco gives him a bump in the Tier List, but apart from that I really don't see how he's anything more than the upper bounds of mid tier.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Speaking of Kirby vs Falco, I keep hearing mixed opinions on it lately.

That was a matchup that, at one time, was considered pretty universally bad for Falco. However, these days I've heard everything from 6:4 Kirby, to 5:5, to 6:4 Falco... and everyone that I have heard say those things is always super-sure of their stance.

Just kind of interesting how that's changed and yet everyone seems sure that they are right, despite it being fairly disputed now.

Should we maybe discuss that? Or is it too specific for this discussion?

 

[Teran]

I dunno, I think the fact that there are more Falcos around and we put more effort into studying a matchup that we feel we're disadvantaged in compared with Kirby, a character with a smaller playerbase who think they're at an advantage anyway.

Kirby vs Falco isn't nightmarish as many Falcos used to make out, but Kirby's floatiness (floaty characters hinder Falco's overall game imo), combined with his small size, decent aerials, and ability to steal the laser (the real issue really), is what gives him the slight edge.

Honestly Kirby can control the different aerial zones really well if he actually acquires lasers. His fallspeed can make some manoeuvres awkward but obviously it also allows him to fire a more concentrated burst of lasers.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Saying Falco "gets *****" by him is very 2008, I agree.

To me, the matchup seems to be a slight advantage for Kirby, though both characters can definitely win it.

However, recently I've heard several people who vehemently oppose that and insist that Kirby is completely incapable of beating Falco though... I find that to be an interesting divide.

 

[Kewkky]

Yeah, well, i remember seeing people argue against it as well back in 2008. AFAIK there's always been people who say "WE beat Kirby, they don't beat US", as well as "Kirby beats US, WE don't beat him".

I also disagree with the people who say Kirby is incapable of beating Falco when played right. No matter how many times I play a match in my head or in a TV, there's just no way anyone can convince me that Falco can have an advantage on Kirby, or even call the MU even.

Oh and... If Kirby steals Falco's laser, we can SHTL. Most you can do is spam downB until we approach. And if you downB the lasers when we're close enough, we get hit with the laser, fall to the ground, run in and get a grab while you're ending the attack. If you jump and retreat a downB, you're now in the air and we're below you, where we love to be against Falco...

I know you're not arguing that it's in Falco's advantage MMM, but I just felt like I should throw in a couple of sentences from my side.