BBR Weekly Character Discussion #6: Kirby

[Shaya]

See the thing with kirby is...

his bair outranges our fair..
and any well spaced moved from kirby will have up b whiff...

 

[Kewkky]

See the thing with kirby is...

his bair outranges our fair..
and any well spaced moved from kirby will have up b whiff...

Our bair might have more range than your fair, but out bair is almost all hurtbox, and your fair is almost all disjoint. So all you have to do is hit any part of our leg and you win the encounter.

 

[RATED]

And I told YBM to use ZSS against me, I'm terrible at the matchup

****, just shield carefully against her( watching how your shield drops) and anyways she can't kill you most of the time if she breaks your shield. The annoying thing is the Pieces if you don't know how to use items( I assume u know since u play Snake too).



==================

Kirby is good where he is or maybe a bit higher, his grab game is good, the uptilt , bair and Dtilt and he can evade moves while crouching( including some grabs). He hates camping but is not like is impossible to him.

 

[t!MmY]

Kewkky's got ir right about Marth's F-air vs. Kirby's B-air. Not to mention you can't just look at one of Kirby's moves, say it beats one of Marth's moves, and then make that the entire conclusion of the match-up. Marth's Dancing Blade makes a big difference in the match-up, as does his Dolphin Slash and the fact that his aerials KO Kirby pretty easily with tippers.

In other words, Marth has a much easier time spacing and getting the KO than Kirby does. It's not all about just F-air vs. B-air.

 

[Shaya]

Eh, that just was the general opinion of myself and others of the match up when I was in Socal last year.

Havok/Haze/Bardull have all (maybe not havok?) lost to/been knocked out by kirby in tournaments, and players like MogX/Havok were able to articulate to me that the mu was even considering other things such as Marth not having any safe kill moves and any one of those kill moves that misses means kirby's killing you at 100% tops.

Of course I'm fully aware of regional opinions, but I do tend to think a lot about options, and when it comes to a character who I can predict their movements but they just outright are very hard to manage as Marth I have a hard time thinking it's a major **** match up. There's also kirby's good grab range, dash grab, and how susceptible marth is to follow ups after grabs due to his general weaknesses. Kirby's damage output from grabs on Marth I believe to be extremely potent.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd also like to know what Neo / ChuDat think of that match-up. I'm pretty sure they are about even.

 

[Kewkky]

I'd also like to know what Neo / ChuDat think of that match-up. I'm pretty sure they are about even.

Could you explain why it's about even? I'd really like to see your reasoning for this.

Marth doesn't even need to attack us for him to limit us, all he needs to do is attack the air between us and BAM, we're forced to approach from the ground. Once we do, it's exactly as he expected, so he'll have something ready for ground approaches (DB / Grab / upB / roll / whatever).

Eh, that just was the general opinion of myself and others of the match up when I was in Socal last year.

Havok/Haze/Bardull have all (maybe not havok?) lost to/been knocked out by kirby in tournaments, and players like MogX/Havok were able to articulate to me that the mu was even considering other things such as Marth not having any safe kill moves and any one of those kill moves that misses means kirby's killing you at 100% tops.

Of course I'm fully aware of regional opinions, but I do tend to think a lot about options, and when it comes to a character who I can predict their movements but they just outright are very hard to manage as Marth I have a hard time thinking it's a major **** match up. There's also kirby's good grab range, dash grab, and how susceptible marth is to follow ups after grabs due to his general weaknesses. Kirby's damage output from grabs on Marth I believe to be extremely potent.

There's that, but as a Kirby player, we end up depending more on mistakes the opposing player makes in order to capitalize, and to play the bait-and-punishment game. If Marth never falls for the bait game and makes sure to zone the hell out of Kirby and be ready for Kirby's grounded approaches, it starts getting harder for Kirby.

Only MU I think is as bad as a consideration of **** is ICs. Marth IMO is next to them, but definitely isn't in the category of hard counter.

 

[mikeHAZE]

There's that, but as a Kirby player, we end up depending more on mistakes the opposing player makes in order to capitalize, and to play the bait-and-punishment game.

dunno who you are


but welcome to super smash brothers brawl.


also, marth kirby is pretty even.


every good marth has lost to kirby repeatedly.

Not discrediting the kirby's either, because each kirby we've lost to have been good, but the matchup is very much so difficult for marth

 

[Kewkky]

*pats mHAZE's head* Hohoho! Now now, little one, both Kirbies and Marths have a different view on the MU as far as I've seen so far. And just like Gheb, you didn't tell me how does this become even.

My opinion still sits on Marth being a disadvantage, you guys are doing a very lousy job at convincing me and other Kirbies.

 

[A1lion835]

As a Backroomer, a mod, and a respected member of the Kirby boards, I really think Kewkky needed that welcome.

Aggressive Marth vs Kirby is about 55-45 in Marth's favor. Aggro seems to be how many Marths play, which I assume is why so many people seem to think that it's not too bad for Kirby. If Marth is charging at Kirby, he has a much better chance of punishing Marth. But Marth just needs to play defensively and the matchup easily shifts 5-10 points in his favor. Kirby HAS to approach, and his approach options aren't great. Any aerial approach gets outranged by ftilt, among other things. Kirby's grounded approach options are basically running shield, running spotdodge, and run->shield->attack, which doesn't offer much flexibility. Even when Kirby gets close-up, moves like DB, dtilt, SH Fair and UpB OoS make the going difficult. The only time Kirby really outplays Marth is when he's under him and (almost always) offstage.

I think our recent Marth export can help shed some light. Maybe our opinion on the matchup might've been different if you'd been there.

 

[Shaya]

Okay

1. Marth's move set isn't as lagless as you'd think. Only his aerials are really safe. However his fastest oos options are rising aerials which are most definitely not very safe at all when predicted.
Because of Kirby's amazing dash grab, nearly any power shield he gets on marth is most definitely a painful follow up, even when marth is using his "lagless" moves. Kirby gets great ability to read and damage marth for A LOT OF DAMAGE from every grab. Marth is NOT CAPABLE of avoiding kirby's follow ups from grabs. REALLY.

2. Kirby's moves are singular hit, it isn't like G&W which bair on shield is like LOLOLOL. In this sense it's a reaction speed trap. Any move hitting marth's shield from kirby may be punished by dolphin slash, but the time frame allowed is a lot less than you'd expect... and any ... mistakes...

3. Mistakes:
Marth's kill moves and whatnot are all at least -20 on shield. Marth can't afford to whiff a dolphin slash at all. If Marth does, he's dying at 70-80%. Not many characters can boast this at all. EVEN IF MARTH LANDS ON A PLATFORM ABOVE (which makes life so much less painful against "the fsmash crew" [dedede, snake, etc]) you're able to get side b off, which kills us INSANELY early as well.

4. Kirby zones us from the air like peach does. And it's NOT easy for marth to handle at all. At full hop height, Kirby is much within reaction speed to remain safe and punish any sort of jumping option, and has that over all better fast fall speed and aerial mobility (compared to let's say, MK) to land away. In other words Kirby literally keeps marth stuck to one position when he's not within 9 frames of a jumping fair, and with multiple jumps and his relatively safe ff bair is not something we just go LOLOLOLWIN. SO kirby lands, his rolls are QUITE GOOD and ROLLING IS SOMETHING MARTH STRUGGLES TO HANDLE AGAINST SOME CHARACTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Kirby's dodge and bait/punishment options once he lands outside of sword range are pretty lol. Marth can "stop" kirby from getting back into the air, but...

5. Did I mention mistakes?
Marth whiffs an ftilt on a kirby coming down facing backwards in the air and that's a guaranteed fsmash. Marth uses any move as you're coming down to land and if it DOESN'T HIT YOU you're free to roll behind us and be at a most likely frame advantage, where our ONLY options are to spot dodge/shield or dash away. Marth doesn't cover behind him in close quarters well AT ALL. You know fsmash and grab together cover all three of those options within a safe reaction speed? and no, jumping is not an option. That's suicide.

6. Did I also mention that any time that marth whiffs anything I dread the fact that I'll probably die at 80%?

 

[Kewkky]

**** it, accidentally clicked quote and deleted my whole message. Pfft, laptop keypad...

Well, to tell you the truth, I've never had problems with Marth. A number of players in PR have mained him before, and others still use him as a secondary. I have an easier time as Kirby than I do as ZSS due to his good grab game, and his bait-and-punishment strategy working well with his moveset... But I have acknowledged that Marth's inherent trait of having a disjoint that can beat all 'clashes' we might ever have with you, as well as your threat of DS'ing/DB'ing us in the middle of a string/after hitting your shield makes approaching as Kirby always risky. When in stages with platforms (which generally makes us feel at home), Marth can take advantage of them fairly easily with his disjoints, making us dread choosing platformed stages against him and losing some of our most exploitable stages. Not to mention that if we fail to gimp you and you grab the ledge, we HAVE to let you touch ground due to your ledgedrop fair>upB being a good Kirby-swatting technique.

Seriously, all you have to do is zone. Try hitting us when you're sure it'll connect, otherwise take advantage of our bait-and-punishment strategy to hit us simply by swatting at the air between us both, where Kirby's extended hurtboxes will be placed once he tries to outrange your fair thinking you were about to whiff it.

 

[Asdioh]

Kirby gets great ability to read and damage marth for A LOT OF DAMAGE from every grab. Marth is NOT CAPABLE of avoiding kirby's follow ups from grabs. REALLY.

Smash DI.

If you're desperate, counter and dolphin slash are available. Fair will probably do the job if you really can't SDI away.

2. Kirby's moves are singular hit, it isn't like G&W which bair on shield is like LOLOLOL. In this sense it's a reaction speed trap. Any move hitting marth's shield from kirby may be punished by dolphin slash, but the time frame allowed is a lot less than you'd expect... and any ... mistakes...

Unless Kirby's Bair is space perfectly, which means at the very very edge of your shield, or even out of your shield's range, you can punish it in a way other than dolphin slash, like fair or grab. If you can't, then don't, and Kirby won't be able to safely follow up. I don't use Kirby's Fsmash much, but sometimes I can space a Bair, my opponent will shieldgrab, miss the grab, and I punish with Fsmash or ftilt or whatever. Don't fall for that.

6. Did I also mention that any time that marth whiffs anything I dread the fact that I'll probably die at 80%?

Camp harder, DI better. Kirby really shouldn't be killing you at 80% unless your DI is just poorly executed. I will admit that Marth has a harder time getting kills than Kirby, assuming the Kirby won't get baited into a Dolphin Slash, but it's really not that easy for Kirby either.

Really though, just camp, camp, camp. I once played a Marth in a bunch of games as we were trying to get the matchup down, I kept beating him until I told him to just camp harder, and then I realized how few options I had when he did that and then I kept losing.


Also, hopefully you're not using Dolphin Slash to kill when you're in kill range yourself. >_>

 

[Shaya]

Smash DI.

If you're desperate, counter and dolphin slash are available. Fair will probably do the job if you really can't SDI away.

fthrow fair uair etc bs is not what i'm referring to. Down throw, what marth do? get bair'd/uair'd, regrabbed, or utilt'd and all three of those moves repeat the situation of having Marth trying to get to the ground. Kirby's low percent grab "combos" aren't of concern.

Unless Kirby's Bair is space perfectly, which means at the very very edge of your shield, or even out of your shield's range, you can punish it in a way other than dolphin slash, like fair or grab. If you can't, then don't, and Kirby won't be able to safely follow up. I don't use Kirby's Fsmash much, but sometimes I can space a Bair, my opponent will shieldgrab, miss the grab, and I punish with Fsmash or ftilt or whatever. Don't fall for that.

Protip: aim kirby's bair at the top of marth's head (well spaced obviously). Dolphin Slash will be a weak hitting one (i.e. you'll punish us with an fsmash for trying it up until about 70%), marth can't grab it, the shield pushback won't allow us to typical oos options that will reach (i.e. whiffs as I've said), and us shield dropping to any other action isn't fast enough. Us dashing only resets the position at best (our dash is 17 frames before we can shield), but you can punish us moving away after that encounter.

Camp harder, DI better. Kirby really shouldn't be killing you at 80% unless your DI is just poorly executed. I will admit that Marth has a harder time getting kills than Kirby, assuming the Kirby won't get baited into a Dolphin Slash, but it's really not that easy for Kirby either.

Fsmashes at the ledge and side bs near the ledge/off stage. I'm talking about initial percent though, not final percent.
Camping harder is fine, we can do that. And we can feasibly remain safe whilst doing so. BUT we aren't able to safely initiate aggression against kirby at all, most of the time.

Really though, just camp, camp, camp. I once played a Marth in a bunch of games as we were trying to get the matchup down, I kept beating him until I told him to just camp harder, and then I realized how few options I had when he did that and then I kept losing.


Also, hopefully you're not using Dolphin Slash to kill when you're in kill range yourself. >_>

Of course.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You guys are doing a very lousy job at convincing me and other Kirbies.

I don't see the need to convince you as a Kirby player about anything in regards to Kirby. This match-up has been played on a high level in SoCal as well as MD/VA multiple times and statistically the results of these matches are about even, if not in Kirby's favour. Isn't that enough to convince you? Don't result tell you a lot more than worthless theorycrafting?

I don't believe in what people on the Kirby boards tell me about a match-up when the reality looks vastly different. Rather than that you should wonder if there might be something you are doing wrong because there has to be something wrong when a match-up never plays out the way you are explaining in theory.

 

[Asdioh]

fthrow fair uair etc bs is not what i'm referring to. Down throw, what marth do? get bair'd/uair'd, regrabbed, or utilt'd and all three of those moves repeat the situation of having Marth trying to get to the ground. Kirby's low percent grab "combos" aren't of concern.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUOng_74Fx4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg06uhB4BEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0U9cCJtAig


just some neo vs chudat matches someone posted in the kirby GD


Yeah it kinda sucks for Marth when he gets dthrown, but there is nothing guaranteed out of that at low percent or high. If you're talking about higher percent, yeah it sucks that Marth has to get back down because he doesn't have many options from above, but at least he has aerial mobility. His superior running speed and air mobility make this same situation very difficult for Kirby as well when Marth's the one doing the chasing.

For the record, I think it's in Marth's favor, but not by a huge margin.

 

[A1lion835]

I don't see the need to convince you as a Kirby player about anything in regards to Kirby. This match-up has been played on a high level in SoCal as well as MD/VA multiple times and statistically the results of these matches are about even, if not in Kirby's favour. Isn't that enough to convince you? Don't result tell you a lot more than worthless theorycrafting?

I don't believe in what people on the Kirby boards tell me about a match-up when the reality looks vastly different. Rather than that you should wonder if there might be something you are doing wrong because there has to be something wrong when a match-up never plays out the way you are explaining in theory.

"Some guys who I won't mention by name have played this out a lot and their results apparently lean towards 50-50 . Discussing a character's assets and abilities in conjunction with another character's same things is absolutely worthless, when you take into account matches played between nameless examples most likely at varying levels of skill and understanding of the matchup."

Statistically, yes, the more recorded matches you have of a MU, the more likely their results will show how difficult the matchup is for 1 character. But before I put my faith in these stats, I want to see them.

I'm sure Kewkky has never paused to consider the idea that he could be wrong.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I'm that other side of the Kirby board that agrees that the Marth MU isn't as bad as some would believe. It's not a 60-40 Marth; it's not 50-50 either but somewhere in between.

1. Bair beats Fair. It's a large chunk of this matchup because both characters fall back on those moves.
2. Punishment. Kirby punishing Marth is how we work upto and obtain kills. Between that and grabs is how the matchup is handled.

Past that it may lean a bit in Marths favor for his DB and tippers on our floaty character but its hardly a disadvantage MU, maybe slight disadvantage?

 

[Kewkky]

I don't see the need to convince you as a Kirby player about anything in regards to Kirby. This match-up has been played on a high level in SoCal as well as MD/VA multiple times and statistically the results of these matches are about even, if not in Kirby's favour. Isn't that enough to convince you? Don't result tell you a lot more than worthless theorycrafting?

I don't believe in what people on the Kirby boards tell me about a match-up when the reality looks vastly different. Rather than that you should wonder if there might be something you are doing wrong because there has to be something wrong when a match-up never plays out the way you are explaining in theory.

Oh, but it ALWAYS plays out the way I theorize it! I've seen Chu vs Neo videos, and Neo never plays gay. He's an aggressive marth. You know what kills Kirby? Defensive maneuvers with lots of disjoints. When Falco goes on the defensive, it gets harder for Kirby. When Lucario goes on the defensive, Olimar, MK, ICs, it gets harder for Kirby. I acknowledge that your lack of insight is because you're not a Kirby mainer, and thus don't see it from our point of view. Remember that defensive > aggressive in this game!

And as soon as you posted your opinion here, which was the opposite of what everyone was saying (Shaya spoke after you), you put yourself in a position where either you had to explain your stance, or admit that you were wrong. If you choose neither of those, then you have no need to post in this thread.

So, goodbye, we won't miss you in any discussion here! Feel free to learn more about Brawl meanwhile!


A1, I've admitted to being wrong many times before, and I've grown to accept whenever I'm wrong and admit it in posts by swallowing my pride. But really, I can't see this MU being even. And like I said, it's not a hard counter (like I post in the MU threads, 60:40 has always been my stance).

 

[A1lion835]

That was sarcasm. >_>

 

[Kewkky]

That was sarcasm. >_>

Well you failed at it.

 

[A1lion835]

On the contrary, it is you who has failed!

Seriously, I would have to be a jerk to mean "I'm sure Kewkky has never paused to consider the idea that he could be wrong." Are you trying to imply that I'm a jerk?

 

[fromundaman]

We truly have a talent for turning serious discussions into social threads...

 

[A1lion835]

Hey, it'd been 3.5 hours since the last serious post. Fair game.

 

[Kewkky]

Hahaha, A1.

Spoiler

you jerk

Well, since Fromundaman pointed out something that we should be doing, let's stay on-topic. I mean, a tiny off-topic spurt that happens every once in a long while isn't bad for a community, which is why I let it slide no problem here in the Kirby boards. Look at how much more attractive we are as a board compared to many other character communities out there!

Anyway, stay on topic now.

Kirby shouldn't be so low.

 

[A1lion835]

Spoiler

How does Kewkky know I jerk O_o

Kirby is kinda okay where he is.

 

[SheerMadness]

I've always thought Marth/Kirby was evenish.

Never understood why people think Marth has such a big advantage.

 

[BBQTV]

he does have an advantage albert not THAT big but an advantage nonetheless

 

[t!MmY]

If Kewkky's even saying that Marth vs. Kirby is a bad match-up for Kirby, then that's saying something.

I can see how Kirby has some good tools to use in the match-up, plus there are qualities that favorably affect things for Kirby. For instance, Kirby's B-air works wonders for getting Marth off-stage and in to a bad position; also, Marth has no projectile with which to spam which takes a LOT of pressure off Kirby.

However, Marth's advantage lies in his fast, disjointed sword with tipper power. This, and this alone, makes things hard for Kirby.

I can see how some people can see this as 'evenish', but, really, the advantage falls to Marth - even if you only want to call it as a 'slight' advantage.

And they all lived happily ever after.

 

[Kewkky]

If Kewkky's even saying that Marth vs. Kirby is a bad match-up for Kirby, then that's saying something.

I'll just take that as a complient, I guess.

I think his ideal spot is either #13 or #14, behind TL. ZSS should go after Kirby, then Rob, then Pit, then Luigi... Thats how mid tier should look like (until MK stops hogging top tier, and people from high tier move to top tier and make space for Kirby! ).

 

[t!MmY]

You underrate ROB. But then again, everybody does.

 

[Kewkky]

You underrate ROB. But then again, everybody does.

How so? He goes below Kirby, has an advantage over us in our MU, with his power we can annoy him just like he does to us... What's there to underrate?

 

[Pierce7d]

Umm, excuse me Mr. MikeHaze sir, but I have NEVER lost to a Kirby in tournament.

I feel as if I've beaten Kewwky in Pools at some National (I'm actually bringing this up because I've fought and destroyed a number of Kirby players in pools at nationals, and I want to know if any of them were you ). If memory serves me correct, I've defeated Timmy in tournament at both Genesis and MLG (though he used MK on both occasions, he did lose with Kirby to my Falco after I beat him game 1 MK vs my Falco on his counterpick, which I believe was Halberd, for those who are curious)

That being said, I only bring this up because a certain Mr. MikeHaze dares to claim that ALL skilled Marth's have lost to Kirby. Now, if you're claiming that I'm not a skilled Marth, then I simply won't bother teaching you all the cool stuff I learned recently

I still feel t!mmy is a skilled player, and if Kewwky is who I think he is in my foggy memory, his was definitely an exceptional Kirby, although if he remembers the incident, I think he'll agree that the match was not close, because Marth does indeed have a rather large advantage on Kirby. Greater mobility all around, greater pressure tools, greater pokes, just overall better tools means that Kirby's life is miserable. Marth has options on the ground which directly win vs. Kirby's Bair, but Kirby doesn't have this luxury. Marth can also punish more consistently.

From where I'm standing, it's at least 6-4 Marth, but I'm actually leaning towards 7-3.

 

[A1lion835]

I'm glad someone finally agrees with us. ^_^

No offense, but have you played many non-nameless Kirbies other than t1mmy and Kewkky? Because if you haven't, it's not that surprising that you've never lost to one, regardless of the matchup.

 

[Shaya]

Whats this?

Pierce $50 mming Chudat?
HE SAID HES GOT THIS?

 

[Asdioh]

Umm, excuse me Mr. MikeHaze sir, but I have NEVER lost to a Kirby in tournament.

I feel as if I've beaten Kewwky in Pools at some National (I'm actually bringing this up because I've fought and destroyed a number of Kirby players in pools at nationals, and I want to know if any of them were you ). If memory serves me correct, I've defeated Timmy in tournament at both Genesis and MLG (though he used MK on both occasions, he did lose with Kirby to my Falco after I beat him game 1 MK vs my Falco on his counterpick, which I believe was Halberd, for those who are curious)

That being said, I only bring this up because a certain Mr. MikeHaze dares to claim that ALL skilled Marth's have lost to Kirby. Now, if you're claiming that I'm not a skilled Marth, then I simply won't bother teaching you all the cool stuff I learned recently

I still feel t!mmy is a skilled player, and if Kewwky is who I think he is in my foggy memory, his was definitely an exceptional Kirby, although if he remembers the incident, I think he'll agree that the match was not close, because Marth does indeed have a rather large advantage on Kirby. Greater mobility all around, greater pressure tools, greater pokes, just overall better tools means that Kirby's life is miserable. Marth has options on the ground which directly win vs. Kirby's Bair, but Kirby doesn't have this luxury. Marth can also punish more consistently.

From where I'm standing, it's at least 6-4 Marth, but I'm actually leaning towards 7-3.

Good post, but...

Learning new stuff? In my 2010 Brawl?

Spoiler

It's more likely than you think???!!

I'm glad someone finally agrees with us. ^_^

No offense, but have you played many non-nameless Kirbies other than t1mmy and Kewkky? Because if you haven't, it's not that surprising that you've never lost to one, regardless of the matchup.

nobody plays kirby bro.

meta knight ALL DAY

 

[Kewkky]

Umm, excuse me Mr. MikeHaze sir, but I have NEVER lost to a Kirby in tournament.

I feel as if I've beaten Kewwky in Pools at some National (I'm actually bringing this up because I've fought and destroyed a number of Kirby players in pools at nationals, and I want to know if any of them were you ). If memory serves me correct, I've defeated Timmy in tournament at both Genesis and MLG (though he used MK on both occasions, he did lose with Kirby to my Falco after I beat him game 1 MK vs my Falco on his counterpick, which I believe was Halberd, for those who are curious)

That being said, I only bring this up because a certain Mr. MikeHaze dares to claim that ALL skilled Marth's have lost to Kirby. Now, if you're claiming that I'm not a skilled Marth, then I simply won't bother teaching you all the cool stuff I learned recently

I still feel t!mmy is a skilled player, and if Kewwky is who I think he is in my foggy memory, his was definitely an exceptional Kirby, although if he remembers the incident, I think he'll agree that the match was not close, because Marth does indeed have a rather large advantage on Kirby. Greater mobility all around, greater pressure tools, greater pokes, just overall better tools means that Kirby's life is miserable. Marth has options on the ground which directly win vs. Kirby's Bair, but Kirby doesn't have this luxury. Marth can also punish more consistently.

From where I'm standing, it's at least 6-4 Marth, but I'm actually leaning towards 7-3.

Yep, I remember. Pools at Pound4, you 0-2'd me. Hell I went 1-2 against Seibrik's MK, but couldn't get a game off of you in our set.

Truth be told, I did way better in friendlies against other people because I wasn't under pressure of "i don't want to lose so early!" feelings as I was in pools. But, yes, I've agreed that Marth beats Kirby.

 

[Sage JoWii]

I'm pretty sure the match up isn't dead even. I'm positive EVERYONE can agree on that.

I'm also sure that no one (but maybe Pierced) agrees its beyond 65-35; prolly not pass 6-4.

In Kirby's defense to Pierce's argument, T1mmy played MK (and when he did it was against your Falco) and Kewkky doesn't know the MU (otherwise he'd be on board with those saying it's closer to even then previously conceived).

Crouched Kirby anyone? Lolz. Seriously though, the sword is a pain but Kirby has mixups w/ the grabs and FSmash or DSmash (or try USmash) to fall back on.

 

[BBQTV]

do we have to run the clock on snake? im thinking maybe

 

[Pierce7d]

I'd advise running the clock on Snake.

Also, for some reason, I've fought several other Kirbies, though I don't remember them, because no offense at all to anyone, but I just don't remember sub-par Kirby players I've fought, and there's no Kirby mains in this region. Kewwky might recall that against yet another Kirby that was in that same pool at Pound4, I defeated him with Marth, and then Mario when he CPed me to Brinstar. Not that I think Mario beats Kirby or anything, but if I'm comfortable enough to defeat you with Mario in pools at a national, I'm just not likely to remember you amongst the hundreds of players there.

Also, the d at the end of my name is just there for ending flavor. Just Pierce, if you please.

Shaya, I am typically against MMs, but I would LOVE to fight Chu Dat. He always promises me a match, but then disappears before I get a chance to fight him.