BBR Weekly Character Discussion #9: Marth

[Pierce7d]

Halberd, do you honestly think I'm that stupid? In the MUs I've already written out, I've even outlined Marth's key options and the opponent's key options. I OBVIOUSLY acknowledge that the opponent has options, or I'd just be like, "Marth hits you, you die, 100-0." However, I know what I'm talking about, and these are MUs I've you know . . . PLAYED unlike the rest of you, so obviously I'm not just basing this off theory-craft. I'm telling you what Marth is actually capable of doing at high levels.

Riddle, you are correct that I must have been on crack when I put Marth as 6-4 vs ZSS. That's an even MU if I ever saw it.

 

[Pierce7d]

Lee, trust me, Marth ***** Wario. Teh_Spammerer himself taught me this MU. It's ****.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Capability of an individual isn't the same thing as possible, and just because one person can do it doesn't mean everyone can do it or should even try.

by that logic we would have to say Wobbling is impossible and should not factor into an MU because not everyone can do it.
Not everyone can get the timing correct for the IC chaingrabs, hell I have problems doing it with jiggly, but the fact that it can be done on jiggly is more than enough reason to presume it as a factor of the MU.

Let alone that there are two things.
THat which is reasonably capable (wobbling, IC chaingrabs)
and those that are not reasonable (perfect Fox or near perfect)

The main problem with your assumptions about matchup ratios is that you're basically assuming if Marth plays perfectly then the opponent has no options. This is most puzzling concerning how Wario can possibly be 65:35 or even definitely in Marth's favor.

"Wario can't get past marth's fair"

Wario can airdodge through the first fair and powershield the second one, then attack Marth OOS, I don't see a problem. You have to factor in the window of possibility for Wario to powershield the second Fair though. You can't just look at frame data though because you have to factor in the spacing as which wario dodged the first fair, how the first fair was spaced, how early wario airdodged, how marth is DIing and how quickly as he fairs, as well as the timing of the second fair and the wario player putting up his shield.

Doesn't tha presume that Marth does a second Fair? in fact why would he Fair?
If I recall correctly, Marth can also do a Fastfalled Uair~>utilt to frame trap Wario after his air dodge.

Of course this is an argument about specifics but I think it stems more from the fact that when Wario deals with Marth, its much more of a guessing game while when marth is fighting Wario, he has the ability to force certain behavior.

People aren't perfectly, and the factors I just described earlier aren't going to be exactly the same way every single time. Depending on the players sometimes Marth will win, sometimes Wario will win.

This isn't even about this matchup, I don't care about the window of Marths fair or wario's airdodge, it's just an example of why that kind of theorycraft to support matchup ratios is wrong.[/QUOTE]

 

[gallax]

Marth vs kirby is not 70:30. Its more 55:45

Chudat vs mikehaze vids prove it.

Ive played chu many times and hes a good friend of mine. Marth vs kirby is tough for marth. 1 mistake are your dead.

 

[Pierce7d]

Umm, how does two players prove a MU? I agree with using two players for evidence, but it doesn't prove anything. I could just as easily say "Dr. Peepee has ***** Chu Dat with Marth, proving the MU is ****" but that's also dumb.

Kirby is just one of those characters that is hugely susceptible to pressure, while having a difficult time approaching.

BTW, I actually play most of the characters in the game very well, including Kirby. I'm not just inventing stuff. I LOVE to discuss MUs, but please elaborate on really false statements like, "1 mistake and you're dead" Kirby is reasonable at punishing mistakes, but most certainly will not kill Marth over a trivial mistake.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Marth vs kirby is not 70:30. Its more 55:45

Chudat vs mikehaze vids prove it.

Ive played chu many times and hes a good friend of mine. Marth vs kirby is tough for marth. 1 mistake are your dead.

Two players fighting each other is two players.
You can adapt toth e palyer's habits and so the MU at that moment wont reflect would iti s character vs character.
I would like to see alot more vids that agree with such a proposition.

 

[OverLade]

Why do people still think of Marth like SHDF is a good option? Basically, the ONLY time you should be setting up this option is if you're trying to punish a roll, or you did a rising retreated Fair and it was blocked. No wonder you all think Marth doesn't **** Wario, if you just expect them to brainlessly Fair, rofl.

Marth ***** Wario.

What if you don't blindly fair, and still get read the one time you do choose to fair? What if that one read is a waft? You lose a stock.

Halberd, do you honestly think I'm that stupid? In the MUs I've already written out, I've even outlined Marth's key options and the opponent's key options. I OBVIOUSLY acknowledge that the opponent has options, or I'd just be like, "Marth hits you, you die, 100-0." However, I know what I'm talking about, and these are MUs I've you know . . . PLAYED unlike the rest of you, so obviously I'm not just basing this off theory-craft. I'm telling you what Marth is actually capable of doing at high levels.

Riddle, you are correct that I must have been on crack when I put Marth as 6-4 vs ZSS. That's an even MU if I ever saw it.

You're still doing exactly what I'm talking about. You're outlining options without factoring in human ability to execute them.

Why did NEO lose to Malcolm and Chaz barely beat him? Arent these two of the best marths in the country? Where are the marth players ****** Wario players? Chaz, NEO and Malcolm are all top players. They aren't players of equal skill level either. I'm going to assume that you're going to say "they're not playing the matchup right". Then I'm going to say it's not possible to play the matchup in a way that marth ***** wario because you can't read your opponents mind, and you don't have a 1 frame reaction speed. You probaby don't even have a 20 frame reaction speed and you reaction speed doesn't matter in scenarios where you've already predicted an action. If you've already predicted a SHfair from Wario and chose to SHretreating fair, you didn't know he was going to fair. You predicted it or expected it from experience. But if he powershields it and then wafts you OOS you didn't make a mistake you just read incorrectly. Reading your opponent perfectly is outplaying them, which is being better than them. So Marth ****** wario would be a marth player outplaying a wario player by a huge degree. Marth doesn't have "base options that just **** wario".

Lee, trust me, Marth ***** Wario. Teh_Spammerer himself taught me this MU. It's ****.

Spam doesn't even go to tourneys. Make it happen and put up vids. **** Malcolm/Hunger/Bassem/Gluttony etc and what you say will have weight. People keep saying "in theory in theory" but they don't realize that their minds aren't able to execute what they're theorizing because you don't see stuff happen and react to it....

by that logic we would have to say Wobbling is impossible and should not factor into an MU because not everyone can do it.
Not everyone can get the timing correct for the IC chaingrabs, hell I have problems doing it with jiggly, but the fact that it can be done on jiggly is more than enough reason to presume it as a factor of the MU.

Let alone that there are two things.
THat which is reasonably capable (wobbling, IC chaingrabs)
and those that are not reasonable (perfect Fox or near perfect)

But some things are possible by 90% of the brawl community and some things are only possible by 1%.

Why do you think every MK doesnt try to play like M2K? Because they can't. They dont have the mental or technical ability to control their character that way. So instead they may play campier, spam nado, or resort to other tactics that work better for them. Wobbling isn't one of those things because it's repetitive and doesn't have to do with reading and reacting.

Doesn't tha presume that Marth does a second Fair? in fact why would he Fair?
If I recall correctly, Marth can also do a Fastfalled Uair~>utilt to frame trap Wario after his air dodge.

Of course this is an argument about specifics but I think it stems more from the fact that when Wario deals with Marth, its much more of a guessing game while when marth is fighting Wario, he has the ability to force certain behavior.

I agree but Wario punishes hard enough to keep the matchup close. Random things even like Wario's Fsmash super armor can be used via reads. I'm saying there's a reason why we don't see marth players ****** Wario and even every MK player ****** Warios.

Marth vs kirby is not 70:30. Its more 55:45

Chudat vs mikehaze vids prove it.

Ive played chu many times and hes a good friend of mine. Marth vs kirby is tough for marth. 1 mistake are your dead.

This is correct in this instance though not an accurate way to predict matchup ratios.

Because then someone might've said M2K vs Ally proves MK vs Snake is even (back when they used to go back and forth) and I would pimp slap them. Imo Mikehaze and Chudat are are of close enough skill to assume that the matchup is obviously pretty close but it's not true for a lot of scenarios. And even then a lot of brawl is more bull**** and less about player skill anyway...

 

[Pierce7d]

I haven't lost to Wario in tourney since 2008. I am 3 and 1 in sets with Malcolm, though we haven't played in a while.

Marth's base options do **** Wario. Just because you don't know them, doesn't mean they aren't there.

When taking powershielding into account, I can argue anything about any match-up. It doesn't change the fact that overall, Marth's options against Wario spell ****.

I will gladly MM any Wario for you. This is both my least favorite character in the game, and my favorite character to ****.

"Why did Neo lose to Malcolm?" Neo played poorly that match. Neo OFTEN plays poorly in high pressure situations, which is why he can go viturally even with MikeHaze in dittos, but then lose to Chaz. I mean, does this SOUND like a legit reason? No. Do I personally know the players and situations at hand, and have I used my observations of these players in and out of tourney, and communications with these people to make solid judgements? Yes. Didn't Neo just COMPLETELY **** THE BALLS OFF MALCOLM in Viridian a couple months back, including a 3 stock? Yes. Do I like using individual instances to talk about a MU, when obviously player skill, MU experience, and individual settings take in a large factor. No. Do I acknowledge that high level players should be used fairly as evidence for MUs? Yes.

In the end, I'm not going to try to persuade you that Marth destroys Wario. I personally think all the Warios have loads of improving to do. They all use different tricks that they others don't, which means all of their games are complete, and only Hunger and Gluttony use Bite correctly.

I LOVE how people are trying to tell me how Wario has options in the MU (which of course he does) but then list dumb examples of stuff like powershielding a Fair, and then don't even take into account some of Marth's better options like retreating pivot grabs, and how GR tipper Fsmash kills at like 80% near the ledge.

I actually study this game . . . a lot. I'm not the type of person who would just say, Marth destroys Wario, unless I had powerful reasons for believing that Marth destroys Wario.

As for my reaction speed, it's rather exceptional, but I tend not to waste time reacting. It's too slow.

If the Marth player is doing what he should be doing, Wario's going to be hard pressed to find himself landing a lot of Fsmashes.

 

[OverLade]

Legit wall of text. I'll still say 65-35 is still an extreme ratio but I'll give you 60-40 if you what you say is true.

In your opinion does MK beat Wario harder or equally as marth?

 

[ShadowLink84]

But some things are possible by 90% of the brawl community and some things are only possible by 1%.

Um, you're not getting it.
That was my point.
not things incapable of being done by scrubs, but things capable of being done at a high level consistently.

i.e. wobbling.
Not things thata re impossible to do (perfect fox)
I think you seemed to have mised the point after you saw my reply.

Why do you think every MK doesnt try to play like M2K? Because they can't. They dont have the mental or technical ability to control their character that way. So instead they may play campier, spam nado, or resort to other tactics that work better for them. Wobbling isn't one of those things because it's repetitive and doesn't have to do with reading and reacting.

Except such an argument refers to a lack of skill, not lack of capability.
Of course some people are naturally better than others.
I am quite sure that m2k, Ally and ADHD are people who really are rare but that doesn't make what they do any less feasible.

If the only thing seperating people is their skill, it is a case of the player failing, not a cae of it not being feasible.

I agree but Wario punishes hard enough to keep the matchup close. Random things even like Wario's Fsmash super armor can be used via reads. I'm saying there's a reason why we don't see marth players ****** Wario and even every MK player ****** Warios.

True but while Wario can punish very hard, Marth does have the tools to prevent Wari from landing that punishment.
Its an uphill battle, not a hard counter but it is in Marth's favor, though not by much for sure.

 

[Pierce7d]

Legit wall of text. I'll still say 65-35 is still an extreme ratio but I'll give you 60-40 if you what you say is true.

In your opinion does MK beat Wario harder or equally as marth?

I flip-flop on this opinion a lot. I honestly feel Marth has better tools to limit Wario's options specifically. For example, Wario's Dair often goes through MK's Uair (which I AGREE is superior to Marth's in general) but never through Marth's. Marth's pivot grab is better designed for the MU, and he has better options out of GR. Marth has sweeping hitboxes which Wario suffers against more, but MK's hitboxes have better duration, and are less susceptible to powershield. Marth can use one dominating style against Wario. MK has two different styles to dominate Wario, but has to switch based on the Wario's style of defense. In the end, I think it's about the same. I feel at higher levels, Wario has a lot of tools to get around MK. Wario is a character of very high mobility, and thus can take advantage of MKs low ability in the air, and tornado isn't always the best bet if the Wario knows what he's doing. Also, MK cannot kill Wario nearly as reliably, though I wouldn't say he has an issue killing Wario.

For me, I'd prefer Marth going in, but I feel like MK ***** Wario too. I'm really undecided, but for now, I'll say I think it's about the same.

I think CO18 and M2k can vouch for me that I actually know the MK MU against Wario. With no LGL, obviously MK is better btw.

Also, you saying that you'll give me a 6-4 on the ratio, but disbelieve a 65-35 is a primary example of what I was talking about before when I said a lot of Marth's MUs were actually UNDERRATED, because people don't want to believe that Marth actually shuts down certain characters. They want to feel like a character without "explicitly broken things" cannot actually destroy MUs, so they're like, "Oh, it's just Marth, it's just Fair, we have options, we can powershield, double Fair isn't broken (it's really not, but good Marth's don't rely on it anymore, our metagame can adapt too), he has no good kill moves, he's light, he's gimpable, he gets punished hard, you have to play perfect" and people will just give 9001 johns about how Marth can't POSSIBLY be that bad of a MU, so you end up with Marth being underrated.

 

[DMG]

Amazing post, Pierce. I agree with everything except your marth vs wario ratio. I'd say its 55-45 imo. Wario has a loooooot of tools to get in marth, and a well timed waft really messes him up.

IDK, I like the matchup but I don't think it's THAT good for Wario. 6:4 is probably accurate realistically. I've not come across someone able or willing to play the matchup correctly for very long. The one exception to that might be HAVOK wayy back at Genesis when we did some $1 MM's back to back over and over trying out various characters. He seemed to understand all that he had to do, and he had no problem doing it over and over.

I flip-flop on this opinion a lot. I honestly feel Marth has better tools to limit Wario's options specifically. For example, Wario's Dair often goes through MK's Uair (which I AGREE is superior to Marth's in general) but never through Marth's. Marth's pivot grab is better designed for the MU, and he has better options out of GR. Marth has sweeping hitboxes which Wario suffers against more, but MK's hitboxes have better duration, and are less susceptible to powershield. Marth can use one dominating style against Wario. MK has two different styles to dominate Wario, but has to switch based on the Wario's style of defense. In the end, I think it's about the same. I feel at higher levels, Wario has a lot of tools to get around MK. Wario is a character of very high mobility, and thus can take advantage of MKs low ability in the air, and tornado isn't always the best bet if the Wario knows what he's doing. Also, MK cannot kill Wario nearly as reliably, though I wouldn't say he has an issue killing Wario.

For me, I'd prefer Marth going in, but I feel like MK ***** Wario too. I'm really undecided, but for now, I'll say I think it's about the same.

I think CO18 and M2k can vouch for me that I actually know the MK MU against Wario. With no LGL, obviously MK is better btw.

Also, you saying that you'll give me a 6-4 on the ratio, but disbelieve a 65-35 is a primary example of what I was talking about before when I said a lot of Marth's MUs were actually UNDERRATED, because people don't want to believe that Marth actually shuts down certain characters. They want to feel like a character without "explicitly broken things" cannot actually destroy MUs, so they're like, "Oh, it's just Marth, it's just Fair, we have options, we can powershield, double Fair isn't broken (it's really not, but good Marth's don't rely on it anymore, our metagame can adapt too), he has no good kill moves, he's light, he's gimpable, he gets punished hard, you have to play perfect" and people will just give 9001 johns about how Marth can't POSSIBLY be that bad of a MU, so you end up with Marth being underrated.

MK is Wario's worst matchup hands down. This is partly because Wario has no CP's for MK where as he actually can take Marth to stages where Marth loses. RC for example swings the matchup 55:45 or 6:4 for Wario. There is no comparative stage choice to take MK to. Most starters MK would not like, Wario also doesn't like. The stages MK really likes are ones that Wario kinda likes or really likes but not to the degree of MK. Battle field is a nono, Smashville is meh, YI is weird, Lylat isn't fun because of the layout, etc. Frigate, CS, there's nowhere good to take him. Every stage in the game will be at least 6:4 MK's favor IMO and Wario can't do anything about it. This is even with a LGL.

Marth feels like 6:4, MK being 65:35 or higher. It's that terrible of a matchup when played right IMO.

Marth isn't bad, but it's like why play him when there is ez mode MK around?

I also think Marth beats ZSS because his defensive game is good enough to beat out her offense. Frankly I think her offensive options are pretty lackluster, maybe that's just me.

 

[OverLade]

I flip-flop on this opinion a lot. I honestly feel Marth has better tools to limit Wario's options specifically. For example, Wario's Dair often goes through MK's Uair (which I AGREE is superior to Marth's in general) but never through Marth's. Marth's pivot grab is better designed for the MU, and he has better options out of GR. Marth has sweeping hitboxes which Wario suffers against more, but MK's hitboxes have better duration, and are less susceptible to powershield. Marth can use one dominating style against Wario. MK has two different styles to dominate Wario, but has to switch based on the Wario's style of defense. In the end, I think it's about the same. I feel at higher levels, Wario has a lot of tools to get around MK. Wario is a character of very high mobility, and thus can take advantage of MKs low ability in the air, and tornado isn't always the best bet if the Wario knows what he's doing. Also, MK cannot kill Wario nearly as reliably, though I wouldn't say he has an issue killing Wario.

For me, I'd prefer Marth going in, but I feel like MK ***** Wario too. I'm really undecided, but for now, I'll say I think it's about the same.

I think CO18 and M2k can vouch for me that I actually know the MK MU against Wario. With no LGL, obviously MK is better btw.

Also, you saying that you'll give me a 6-4 on the ratio, but disbelieve a 65-35 is a primary example of what I was talking about before when I said a lot of Marth's MUs were actually UNDERRATED, because people don't want to believe that Marth actually shuts down certain characters. They want to feel like a character without "explicitly broken things" cannot actually destroy MUs, so they're like, "Oh, it's just Marth, it's just Fair, we have options, we can powershield, double Fair isn't broken (it's really not, but good Marth's don't rely on it anymore, our metagame can adapt too), he has no good kill moves, he's light, he's gimpable, he gets punished hard, you have to play perfect" and people will just give 9001 johns about how Marth can't POSSIBLY be that bad of a MU, so you end up with Marth being underrated.

Okay that's all good and well. You've pretty thoroughly explained the logic behind the ratio and even if you say it's 65-35 I have no reason to disagree with you as I don't really play marth or Wario.

But can you take this same logic and method and prove that Marth beats Diddy? You may have frame data on your side but there sure is hell is no tournament data supporting it. If anything, tournament results should the exact opposite.

Um, you're not getting it.
That was my point.
not things incapable of being done by scrubs, but things capable of being done at a high level consistently.

i.e. wobbling.
Not things thata re impossible to do (perfect fox)
I think you seemed to have mised the point after you saw my reply.

Meh I don't look at it that way. Anyone can wobble consistently if they practice it. Not everyone can read people if they practice it. You can learn to wavedash but you cant learn to read people the same way top players do just by practicing it. Top players tend to be better at technical consistency in general but that doesn't mean anyone can learn to do it.

Except such an argument refers to a lack of skill, not lack of capability.
Of course some people are naturally better than others.
I am quite sure that m2k, Ally and ADHD are people who really are rare but that doesn't make what they do any less feasible.

If the only thing seperating people is their skill, it is a case of the player failing, not a cae of it not being feasible.

But some things are unfeasable for 90% of the brawl community.

In theory going off stage against MK as snake is safe because you can just tech stage spikes, wall kick and B reversal back onto the stage. Or you can just react and DI away, and under the stage and recover from under the stage.

But does this mean our metagame is going to develop in this direction? Hell no because even our best players wouldn't dare trying to pull this off even if on paper it makes perfect sense (you could easily apply another character who has better options to chase MK off stage with).

That's not similar to wobbling at all. Wobbling isn't something you wouldn't try because you don't feel you'd be able to pull it off. However fastfalling an Uair while following someones DI and Dairing their airdodge is a lot harder and more risky than just tornadoing their landing. The reward is greater though, it's just technically harder to do.

 

[Pierce7d]

RedHalberd, forgive me if this next post sounds biased, but Marths play the Diddy MU so wrong. I constantly tell all Marth players exactly what to do against Diddy. However, they do not listen. I FREQUENTLY find myself correcting mis-advice from Marth players to other Marth players.

I have lost to three different Diddy Kong players in tournament. In 2008 I lost to Deez. I have defeated him at least twice since that first loss in either tourney or MMs, and have not lost since. Since this will eventually be posted publicly, I will fairly note that I declined his challenge at Pound 4 (the most recent challenge), because I hadn't been practicing the Diddy MU before that.

I have lost to Alphazealot in tournament at Pound 4. However, I do not hesitate in the slightest in saying that my performance vs. him was subpar, and I didn't utilize ANY of the normal strategies I would normally employ in that MU. AZ already knows how much I respect him as both a player and a person, but I will still make it clear that I'm not saying this to make johns, because I was outplayed regardless. I'm just noting because we're discussing MUs and MU theory. I'm 1-2 in sets with ADHD, and slightly under-even with him in friendlies, which we play a lot of.

(A private note to AZ, if you'd like to play me at my best, we can do so at Raleigh, but I'll need a T.V. with no lag .)

I'm going to watch some videos of Neo vs. ADHD, of Ally's Marth vs. ADHD. MikeHaze vs. any Diddy I can find, etc. However, I confidently feel that when I'm playing correctly, I'm the best Marth at this MU by a significant margin SHEERLY off the fact that I use the most effective OVERALL strategy vs. Diddy in the MU.

Trap Diddy on the ledge, keep him there. The end. If you don't know HOW to do this (you'd be surprised, but people really DON'T know how do this) then you don't know the MU. Learn to crouch to reduce getting Faired. Learn how to take control of bananas, and repel banana attacks without leaving yourself open. Learn how to pressure Diddy, and utilize your sword properly, even with bananas about.

My fellow crewmate R00kie somewhat recently dropped Fox for Diddy. ADHD and I have been teaching him the character. He's extremely talented, and knows how to fight Marth very well, as we play a lot (he's also trained quite a bit with Neo, before anyone wants to jump on the, "But maybe he just knows your style" bandwagon). I've taught him the effective strategies to use against Marth, and use my strategies against him and other Diddys, so I'm reassured that the MU is being played correctly from both sides.

I know this MU at almost every angle, and therefore I'm confident when claiming that Marth has a slight advantage vs. Diddy when he plays the MU well, both onstage (the hard part) and the securing the traps, and maintaining good defense. I can also claim that I know the character Diddy pretty well, as I've beaten Diddy players including ADHD with other characters as well including Falco, Mario, and MK, and personally developed several of that character's modern strategies.

Also, Marth players MUST have good item control. Even though we should not attempt to utilize the items too much, item control is still a resource that many players lack.

I'm particularly skilled at the MU, but I don't dominate Diddy players like ADHD or R00kie, because it's not **** for Marth. It's probably 6-4, but I'd believe someone saying it's 55-45 Marth. I don't feel it's even, I feel a distinct advantage going into that MU, unlike R.O.B. or Donkey Kong. I simply know the best options of both characters, and I feel that as the match pans out, if both players are doing what they should be doing, Marth has a solid advantage.

 

[Count]

Pierce is right-no marth knows how to keep Diddy Kong on the edge. Diddy has next to no options if Marth spaces correctly as Diddy is trying to get off of the edge. It makes getting off of the edge vs MK seem easy.

 

[Pierce7d]

ADHD and I have found that the most effective option is ledge jump into some form of aerial mix-up involving your double jump, a SideB, and possibly popgun reverses. However, it still sets up for Marth to juggle, still doesn't get you bananas, and if Marth DOES hit you out of your second jump, it's BAD.

 

[OverLade]

My brother switched from Snake to Diddy last fall and since then I've gotten absurd amounts of practice at the matchup myself which explains my good record against Diddy players (7-1 against GDX, beat Gnes, Fliphop, Dao, ADHD though he wasn't playing at his peak etc) and I'll agree with you that most top players have absolutely no idea how to play against Diddy correctly and that a lot of his game is simply just misunderstood.

I agree that from the ledge without a banana Diddy doesn't have particularly good options but imo MK is the only character he really shouldn't be able to get past. MK has mix ups that are lagless enough that if he guesses wrong he can still react to what he should have predicted in the first place. Marth has slightly more range but more lag, meaning if you guess wrong you're very lightly to lose the mix up and allow Diddy back on stage. Marth has the options but it's still up to the play to punish little things because Marth doesn't have complete control all the time.

Assuming you can keep diddy off the ledge etc you can take damage but Marths options arent nearly as good at this as MKs. MK can and should be able to take a stock from catching Diddy out of side B but Marth killing Diddy out of UpB would require a Dair spike or Fsmash tipper at higher percent which is a lot harder.
These things are possible but replicating them consistently wouldn't happen even at our higher level of metagame. Having this offstage edge is great but what we usually see on stage is marth getting *****. I just watched the NEO vids and I agree that he's not playing the matchup properly and isn't even really shielding or predicting the bananas well at all. But he's getting *****, I think even with superior banana control, while he would do better, it wouldn't shift the matchup in marths favor.

I agree with you on Diddy's weaknesses because I know them very well myself but the amount of gain Marth can get from exploiting them isn't huge, and I don't see a huge edge gained on stage even from having a solid banana game.

Could the matchup be even? Yes, and probably even but I'd like to see at least that in practice before I'd say anything worse.

edit:

I'll also disagree that marth has better ledgeguarding tools than MK. Most MK players aren't used to the priority on Diddy's side B but I can shuttle loop it or reverse dair it just about every time on reaction. Once you understand this taking a stock is pretty easy.

 

[Pierce7d]

I am personally of the opinion that Marth's options for pinning someone on the ledge are heavily underrated, but MKs also suck at ledge trapping properly, and rely on Tornado

Just for the record, Marth doesn't have to guess to ledge-trap people.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Meh I don't look at it that way. Anyone can wobble consistently if they practice it. Not everyone can read people if they practice it. You can learn to wavedash but you cant learn to read people the same way top players do just by practicing it. Top players tend to be better at technical consistency in general but that doesn't mean anyone can learn to do it.

Except again its a case of SKILL of EXPERIENCE. not a case of actual physical capability.
Very few people are so icnredibly physically different that they are guaranteeed to be a top player once they put i the time.
Frankly, i think you are far too quick to toss the word theorycraft out.

But some things are unfeasable for 90% of the brawl community.

In theory going off stage against MK as snake is safe because you can just tech stage spikes, wall kick and B reversal back onto the stage. Or you can just react and DI away, and under the stage and recover from under the stage.

No it isn't!
There is supported theory and then there is theory that isnt supportable.
Theory of gravity explains the behavior of orbiting satellites even thought he law of gravity does NOT explain it.

In theory, it is possible to never die against MK by properly SDing when off stage.
It is not PRACTICAL theory because physical, mental and technological limitations prevent such a thing from ever being done.
In practical theory, Snake can survive at extremely high percents against MK which is feasible theory, supportable theory.
Te brawl community in itself needs to stop going "THEORY CRAFT!" as it should be saying "Such a theory is not practical "

stuf

You are reiterating the EXACT same thing I am saying Halberd.
instead of being so quick to argue, take a moment and read what is being said as well as the implications since you do not seem to notice that we agree on the same thing but disagree in terms of degrees.

We both agere extreme things will never ocur.
So why are you bringing it up?
*thumps with a book*

 

[OverLade]

Except again its a case of SKILL of EXPERIENCE. not a case of actual physical capability.
Very few people are so icnredibly physically different that they are guaranteeed to be a top player once they put i the time.
Frankly, i think you are far too quick to toss the word theorycraft out.

What if I said they didn't have the mental capability? Everyone has fingers that can be controlled by a mind but what if ones mind simply isn't able to control their fingers to the extent that such a thing may be possible? There are some things some people can do and some things some people can't do. That's the reality.

No it isn't!
There is supported theory and then there is theory that isnt supportable.
Theory of gravity explains the behavior of orbiting satellites even thought he law of gravity does NOT explain it.

In theory, it is possible to never die against MK by properly SDing when off stage.
It is not PRACTICAL theory because physical, mental and technological limitations prevent such a thing from ever being done.
In practical theory, Snake can survive at extremely high percents against MK which is feasible theory, supportable theory.
Te brawl community in itself needs to stop going "THEORY CRAFT!" as it should be saying "Such a theory is not practical "

That's what I've been saying... Theorycraft is just the same thing imo.

You are reiterating the EXACT same thing I am saying Halberd.
instead of being so quick to argue, take a moment and read what is being said as well as the implications since you do not seem to notice that we agree on the same thing but disagree in terms of degrees.

We both agere extreme things will never ocur.
So why are you bringing it up?

Something like that though we're still not saying the exact same thing...Oh well though, close enough.

 

[ShadowLink84]

What if I said they didn't have the mental capability? Everyone has fingers that can be controlled by a mind but what if ones mind simply isn't able to control their fingers to the extent that such a thing may be possible? There are some things some people can do and some things some people can't do. That's the reality.
That's what I've been saying... Theorycraft is just the same thing imo.

All that says is they lack the mental capacity to do it
Picking out individual cases is meaningless.
If 90% oof the players wil never come close to winning a tournament.
Does this mean we ignore the top 10%? No.
Not at all.
What needs to be known is if its feasible.
If the person isnt dedicated or skilled enough to do it, that doesnt mean it should be ignored because the majority sucks.

Something like that though we're still not saying the exact same thing...Oh well though, close enough.

*dragon pimp slaps*

 

[OverLade]

All that says is they lack the mental capacity to do it
Picking out individual cases is meaningless.
If 90% oof the players wil never come close to winning a tournament.
Does this mean we ignore the top 10%? No.
Not at all.
What needs to be known is if its feasible.
If the person isnt dedicated or skilled enough to do it, that doesnt mean it should be ignored because the majority sucks.

*dragon pimp slaps*

Lol I never ignore the top 10 percent, I'm talking about things that only concern 1% of top players. Anyways no point in arguing your point is valid we're just still thinking on completely different scales. I guess what I'm talking about is too specific to explain without using a specific example so no point in arguing.

I love how everytime we argue it comes to this kind of conclusion...but the kind of things I'm talking about are things not even me and most top players around my level are capable of...

 

[Pierce7d]

That's what I've been saying... Theorycraft is just the same thing imo.

It's not the same thing. In theory, Marth can limit tremendous amounts of options, and use implied dangers to allow him freer reign of movement. However, it took me a great amount of practice to make this theory applicable. Not all theories are applicable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Lol I never ignore the top 10 percent, I'm talking about things that only concern 1% of top players. Anyways no point in arguing your point is valid we're just still thinking on completely different scales. I guess what I'm talking about is too specific to explain without using a specific example so no point in arguing.

I love how everytime we argue it comes to this kind of conclusion...but the kind of things I'm talking about are things not even me and most top players around my level are capable of...

Thats cause you suck.
I can totally shine like jesus.

 

[OverLade]

Thats cause you suck.
I can totally shine like jesus.

That must be it.

And do you have any evidence that Jesus shines and/or did shine?

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Giant invisible carpenters in the sky are known for their shining skills. It's a fact.

 

[Shaya]

I donm't have time for this thread, I feel like calling in sick for work for it.

UGHH RAGE SUPER HUMONGOUS RAGE.

 

[ShadowLink84]

That must be it.

And do you have any evidence that Jesus shines and/or did shine?

yes. Its in the book known as "AWESOME BOOK!"

 

[AllyKnight]

Wheres my Marth videos =l

 

[Shaya]

Okay here's marth in a nut shell.
He always has options.
He's second only to meta knight in this regard (and I'd say Marth over all would be "better" if it wasn't for his dair not being ****-tastic; even though the inclusion of a spike, tipper mechanics, a low start up counter move, and DANCING BLADE may actually place him ever so slightly higher on the list of variation. Oh wait, MK's dash grab. fararrrk)
However, unlike Meta Knight, his susceptibility to punishment is skewed greatly.
He has "broken **** **** that will **** you dead" like Dolphin Slash OoS, tipper smash attacks that kill you silly, and a versatile/strong ground game that counters most others in the cast.
However, all of those things being so AMAZING when it comes to it's usages, it all happen to be absolutely fail if it doesn't work out (whiffs). This is where people commonly misconceive Marth's match ups/viability based on how they can "punish him", some smarter folk at least realise that they have to do this through baiting (mind games), because otherwise, Marth's options due to his sword/range and mostly low start up are going to beat (or at worse, TRADE with) every other character's in the cast.
The only character who really competes with this (in the particular match up only) is MK due to just literally having a longer sword, lower start up and mostly lower cool down on all of his moves (plus the various options to cancel the lag on his moves that are out right dominating). However, Marth's "**** ****" is still **** **** - IF IT WORKS. And I don't think anyone can actually state that their character has moves/options that Marth cannot beat in several different ways.

Marth's "close" match ups are one which the punishment Marth can receive on a mistake is actually extremely painful. Who do I think is Marth's hardest match up? The ditto.
No character ***** Marth like Marth does. It's ridiculous. I'll argue this until I'm blue in the face. When I find people wanting to learn Marth (and recently quite a few in my scene are wanting to) I play them in the ditto; the only thing this doesn't teach them is the handling of potent projectiles (items / lasers) and stall movements (Peach, MK).
After that, you really come down to the next problem; Dedede, who is able to place so much damage on Marth for mistakes + has such an easy leeway in doing so that it's Marth's most "annoying" non-ditto match up (even though ignoring the CG in the sense that Marth can avoid it, Marth outshines Dedede mostly).

-

Also, Marth outright DOMINATES most of the cast below high tier. I scoff at remarks that Marth doesn't have the "****" match ups other high tiers do. No he isn't to the extent that Dedede is; but most characters below high tier (and even those in high tier, mind you) can BARELY deal with a Marth just spacing neutral air and punishing with dancing blade. Marth's neutral air is pretty much the bomb and no individual horizontal aerial in the game beats it spaced according to the situation, and only a very small select few characters can actually deal with it from the ground. I love neutral air a lot, it's pretty much Marth's version of Mach Tornado except the longer the hitbox is out for, the higher the kill power of it is (when the second hit first comes out, it's killing MK tippered at 110, at the last 2 frames of the hitbox tipper is killing MK at 88%). Seriously, neutral air is like the best move in the game.

-

Another thing that was brought up was marth doesn't have anything safe on diddy's shield when he has a banana.
That's ********.

Marth is like one of 4-5 characters in the game who actually has CLOSE RANGED MOVES THAT ARE SAFE ON DIDDY'S SHIELD WITH A BANANA. His forward toss is 7 frames.
Marth's "safe" aerials only have 4 frames of disadvantage.
MK isn't this lucky.
Nor is Snake.
Nor is Diddy himself
Nor is Falco (bar lasers)
Nor are ICs.
Marth and Wario are the only characters in high tier that have moves that are safe on diddy's shield horizontally.
Jesus christ guys learn2framedata.

 

[Pierce7d]

Wow, except for Shaya overrating Nair (and mind you, it's still really good, but without the sweeping hitbox, it's a lot easier to vertically space against than he's making it seem) that's pretty spot on.

Also, MK might be 65-35. He wins on the ground and repels approaches by a little (5 points), wins in juggles by a little (5 points), and ledge traps a little better (5 points). Both characters are about equally effective at edgeguarding or getting follow-ups on each other, but for MK to win in three different arenas gives him a consistent advantage. It's the only way I can explain that I can sometimes lose to inferior players at the rate that I do when they use MK, as opposed to D3 (I don't lose to D3 if I'm better at any frequency worth looking at)

 

[Shaya]

Marth v MK match up I see as skewed towards MK for a few reasons:

1. The rate of occurrence of Marth getting:
a) Tipper Kills at insanely low percents
b) Grab release to dair (which at this time is a player to player thing, Marth's get grabs on MK all the time; it's just the technical threshold for this is REALLY tight) killing MK from about 50% tops.
Is a lot less than MK gimping Marth.
That's the gist of it, in my opinion.
If I get one fsmash tipper kill on MK in a match at about 90% so for one stock, in which we were playing out reasonably even otherwise [to me, very doable], then I feel like I've guaranteed to win that particular match. In the reverse, if I get gimped stupidly (which unfortunately can happen at any percent) then chances are I'll be losing that match.

This is me equating the match up to the whole "how many wins per 100 matches" ideal.

Other things to consider though are:
1. Marth beats MK's aerials from the ground and in the air (for the most part, if MK didn't have tornado/glide away reset, MK jumping in the match up would be a death trap MOST of the time).
2. Grab release shenanigans.
3. Marth's moves out ranging MK's disjoints - Marth is really lucky in this regard.

-

Also Pierce, over rating nair isn't my job title,
it's "King of the Neutral Air".
Marth doesn't need sweeping/arc hitboxes against most of the cast. Neutral Air beats out just about everyone's aerial confrontation moves, and is actually safe to use from the ground (rising) as you are able to land shortly after the final hitbox comes out (i.e. fast falling). The gist of it is, that because the sword hits downwards still (which is where fair will be hitting people on the ground pierce) and does so for more than 2 frames, and has a much less punishment time from using it from the ground than fair does (14 frames difference) that it does the job fair can do in zoning bad characters than fair can when a rising fair predicted by MOST characters in the game = punishment.

Oh and that 14 frames difference is actually more severe when considering auto cancels. Nair acs frame 23, fair is like 28? I think (so 2 frames landing lag compared to 8).

 

[Count]

Meta knight has some stuff that is safe on diddy's shield.

 

[Shaya]

Maybe some magic mixture of cross overs/tornado.

But none of his tilts nor aerials are safe on his shield.
EXCEPT an auto cancelled back air.

 

[Count]

I think fair is safe as well if done properly although I'm not sure



PAGING DEKAR PAGING DEKAR

 

[Shaya]

IIRC, you can banana throw through the individual hits of mk's fair.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

IIRC, you can banana throw through the individual hits of mk's fair.

Yep. It hurts. Soooo much >.>;

I hate that match up with a burning passion. But then again, i'm not really the best player in the world, lol.

 

[Pierce7d]

MK's dtilt is safe on Diddy's shield, wtf are you guys talking about? Ftilt isn't safe on block, but it has implied safety because you can interrupt each hit with the next hit of ftilt.

 

[Shaya]

DTILT
frame breakdown:
1-2 startup
3-4 hitbox out
5-15 cooldown

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 3
IASA frame: 16
Cooldown: 11
Shield hitlag differential: 0
Shield stun: 1
Shield advantage: -11
Shield drop advantage: -4

>> Shield advantage: -11


--

>> -11

Dear Omniscient being, how many smash backroomers does it take to screw in a lightbulb how many frames is diddy's banana toss Out of Shield?

I counteth seven (Inui [for his amazing logic], Hylian [to make sure the no one knows we're having problems with lightbulbs], Marc [to inform us Europe doesn't even have lightbulbs], OS [to run a mafia game with Thomas Jefferson as the leader of scum] .... cbf) And Abraham bore Isaac who bore Jacob. Your descendants will out number the stars in the sky. I bestow the sacred name Yisrael to Jacob, and all 12 of his sons will be the tribes of the land of Canaan,

BUT ONLY SEVEN OF THEM COUNT,
AND THAT'S DIDDY'S BANANA TOSS OOS

COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT.

 

[Pierce7d]

Shaya, if you try and zone me with Nair instead of Fair, I WILL defeat you with Mario.

However, against taller characters that have lots of ground range (IE: DK, ROB, D3) Nair zoning is super effective, as it allows you to keep a disjointed hitbox out in front of you. I don't bother using it against D3 much anymore, because I just roll over that MU personally, but I LIVE by it in the ROB and DK MU. Haven't really tested it against Snake, as I've found other effective strategies.

EDIT: Fair enough Shaya, I'm pretty sure Diddy's dtilt can punish then. I can't say that's unfeasible, because I often break MK's dtilt pressure with Shielddrop Dsmash using Marth.

Still, it's STUPIDLY hard to react to, even with hit confirming. The range and pressure on the shield is real, unless you have a banana, in which case Dair/Nair becomes safer.