BBR Weekly Character Discussion #9: Marth

[Shaya]

Shaya, if you try and zone me with Nair instead of Fair, I WILL defeat you with Mario.

Yeah probably, but I'm a terrible player, remember?

Of course you cannot ignore the use of fair. As a landing aerial it ***** and there are many a time you will simply bait things through jumping PURELY so you can pressure upon landing.

-

Yes the hitconfirm of mk's dtilt is a bit stupid.
Comes out frame 3, I believe it will have 3-4 frames of hit lag.
So arguably you'll realise mk's hit your with dtilt when it's 8 frames of cool down.. And a well spaced dtilt will easily be able to allow a shield within 8- frames.

well yeah, only 4 frames if you shield drop, which is realistically only going to happen if you predict the dtilt I suppose.

 

[DMG]

I don't think you can throw a banana inbetween hits of Fair. I don't think the frame gap is 7-8 frames, otherwise you would see people shield grabbing inbetween hits on their shield (which I don't think is possible).

As for Dtilt, you also have to remember though that the further MK is from you, the longer it takes the banana to travel to hit him. It may take 7-8 frames for it to come out, but that's near Diddy's hand. It will take some time for it to travel from there to MK.

Does anyone have a frame map of Diddy's strong ground banana throw of where the banana is each frame til it lands? That would be really useful.

 

[Shaya]

I have the first 8 frames in pictures (somewhere in the bbr; the overswarm diddy topic)
7 frames is diddy's body, 8 is just outside his hand.
However 9 is a reasonable distance. It travels fast from that point.

Hence I say -8 is "okay" for sword characters, but -9 or worse is pushing it.

Marth's dtilt untippered is -9 on shields, and if it isn't spaced at least towards the end of his sword he should get tripped up.

 

[Cyphus]

i was under the impression, even if buffered, a regular toss is faster than a glidetoss out of shield, so perhaps ya'll are arguing different things.

 

[AllyKnight]

Marth glide toss is kinda bad. =l

 

[DMG]

Glide toss has additional frames from you rolling before you cancel it. That definitely isn't possible inbetween Fair hits. A regular toss I don't think is either but it is faster.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth's Glidetosses are good for distance, and he can JCIT for different distances.

 

[swordgard]

Marth's Glidetosses are good for distance, and he can JCIT for different distances.

He can also simply crouch cancel to grab to lower the distance he gets from his overly long glide tosses, allowing him to attack even in close-ish range.


EDIT: Who the hell is judge death O.O

Nvm now I know... I should have recognized that writing pattern(1 line, 1 smiley).

 

[mikeHAZE]

Wanna elaborate? I've always felt Diddy loses to Marth.

sorry if i'm really late on this discussion lol


marth has no solid approach in this matchup. The matchup essentially comes down to a wait and bait game that marth has a tough time winning. diddy kong simply needs to have a banana on the ground near at all times, which is almost enough to counter marths approaches. Marth can't land anywhere near a diddy kong who is effectively playing a banana game.

Marth also gets outranged and out prioritized hard by diddy. Didd's Fair will beat Marth's Fair if marth ever tries to get in diddy kongs zone. Same goes for diddy's ftilt.

Another downfall is the limit of momentum Marth is able to get in this matchup. Most of diddy's retaliations allow for reset in momentum by either getting away, trading, or just counter marths approaching (banana's, forward air)

The only place diddy kong has the potential to get ***** is off stage. Marth has very viable tools against diddykong offstage if played efficiently, yet marth needs to capitalize (like any character) on every opportunity and mistake diddy makes off stage. Marth can have a fairly easy time edge guarding diddy, but if the gimp doesn't come then the matchup is lopsided.


overall, i'd say the matchup is probably around 65/45 diddy kong. It could be much worse but most diddy's don't play the matchup effectively.


here's a very old video, but show's some good example of what i'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLsSCj02HTQ me vs. Gnes



Marth as a whole is very inconsistent. He has some decent matchups that other characters may not have (vs. snake for example) yet I find he can go even with mid tier characters that other high/top tiers would **** (donkey kong and kirby for example)


The problem is that he's just too limited by having to approach. Though his hitboxes may have range ((and even then, his his moves are very much so punishable) he is almost always forced to be the one approaching in every matchup. He gets outspaced by a good amount of the cast.

Marth glide toss is kinda bad. =l

not really, its just kinda hard to control but has the potential to lead to some **** setups. Vs diddy for example, marth can glide toss tipper.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think MK, D3, Diddy, ICs and ROB all beat Marth. Undecided on DK, ZSS and Snake.

Pierce, Marth doesn't beat Wolf. It's either 5/5 or 55/45 Wolf favour.

 

[Player-3]

marth/rob and marth/ics are def even or 55/45 marth

dk is even

zss is VERY even

snake is prolly marths adv

 

[mikeHAZE]

I think MK, D3, Diddy, ICs and ROB all beat Marth. Undecided on DK, ZSS and Snake.

Pierce, Marth doesn't beat Wolf. It's either 5/5 or 55/45 Wolf favour.

I would agree that MK, D3, and Diddy are his worst matchups. Rob is really hard, but realistically is probably around 60/40 or evenish, same with wolf, DK and zss. its just a matter of outranging and out prioritizing marth and these characters have the tools.


Marth does have frame traps on these characters but ultimately, i do not believe this out plays them in these matchups


Marth IC's isn't too bad for marth, probably even or 60/40 marth advantage. Marth outspaces them and is very effective at keeping them separated.

 

[Kaffei]

overall, i'd say the matchup is probably around 65/45 diddy kong. It could be much worse but most diddy's don't play the matchup effectively.

You think it's 65:35 or 55:45? Sorry, just curious.

 

[mikeHAZE]

whooooops, 65/35

 

[Shaya]

Oooh, this thread is in my domain now.

So much potential evil.

But yeah... I'm not really sure about diddy being 65/35 MH. But honestly I haven't had much success in it.

 

[mikeHAZE]

i would say its between 70/30 - 60/40. marth is just too limited.

 

[Albert.]

Pierce: pie-in-the-sky optimism lacking actual cold hard evidence.
Mike: realism based on experience and results.

I really wanna see Pierce's Marth now though cause he's really hyping marth up. LOL marth for victory yay!!!

 

[Shaya]

Eh, most Marth enthusiasts go up and down in terms of love.

I've been uber pessimistic and uber optimistic.
Pierce was very much adamant Marth sucked like a few weeks ago.

But what I can say though, is that I've never been forever pessimistic.
I feel that Marth always has a viable solution that I'll/others eventually find; it's only my limits of scope (i.e. what options I use/how I vary them) that push me down.

When MH says "marth can't approach", I wonder, in counter, how Diddy approaches.
He doesn't exactly have long range shield pressure like falco/snake/toon link, so to me it would seem hard for him to gain chip damage during Marth camping.

Most of the 50:50 or "worse" MUs Marths complain about I don't particularly agree, but all of them are less disjointed than Marth.
Wolf is the only one that has specific moves that actually outpace a spacing game that considers their similar/superior range (but less disjoints). Mostly because his 8 frame fsmash reaches distances other characters cannot, which is "usually" how Marth's shield pressure works (pushing players outside of punishment range even if the frame disadvantage is noticeable). Also Wolf's fair is quite good oos, but is readily able to be avoided.

 

[tibs7]

Mike it's no way that bad man :/.

Shaya tell him

 

[mikeHAZE]

Mike it's no way that bad man :/.

wait, you're dictating my opinion?

 

[Shaya]

Well...
When I feel in control of the diddy match up a couple of things need to happen:

1. I need to be able to catch bananas on reaction at least 75% of the time.
This is important. If I'm having a bad day/tired, this doesn't happen, and without being able to do this, Diddy's ability to pressure/zone Marth safely grows exponentially.

2. Using banana techniques fluidly.
Insta throwing, z dropping (recatch aerials), weak glide tosses (properly spaced glide tosses full stop) are all things I'd say very few marths are actually good at.

3. Diddy's forward air.
Eh it's lame.
Really lame.
But Pierce says that if you are crouching it will always miss. Maybe I should try this.

 

[Albert.]

Marth makes his opponent's options disappear faster than if he were to drain MP.

I thought this was hilarious.

 

[Player-3]

it's not 65-35 but it's def diddys adv

and shaya, diddy can just shoot peanuts for chip damage

 

[Shaya]

peanuts are not fast.

 

[Player-3]

so

you can't dodge them forever

 

[Shaya]

I'm sure I could.

 

[Player-3]

well yes you could dodge the peanuts

but if you ****ed up once (miss a PS, do something dumb like fsmash a peanut, land predictably) diddy can throw a naner... and then
bad things happen

 

[Shaya]

I'm on the ledge eating your peanuts with butter and bread broken techniques.

Specially though, avoiding peanuts and bananas is the easiest on smashville. Diddy's only mix up choice to actually hit you whilst doing platform cancelling hacks is through a forward air (but like, why would you be running "through him" when he isn't in the lag of a move I don't know).

I'm not really saying that you'll never get hit.
and if diddy throws a banana and you catch it 75%+ of the time, he's now put himself in an even worse position.
Retreating rising z drop aerials are something diddy doesn't get by easily. Because they restrict him to really nice spaced tilts/fair instead of typical shield grab bs.

 

[Player-3]

ledge grab limit son

and diddy can shoot peanuts so they pass right over the ledge... and if you mess up some really stupid stuff can happen LOL


but yeah sv

 

[tibs7]

Shaya that bit about z dropping retreating stuff. It's not that good bro.
If we predict it we can shield the banana and fair and grab. We can also fair and catch the banana at the same time.
I dunno we'll try it next time I'm down there.

 

[Player-3]

or the diddy can fair


and fair again



and then fair one more time

 

[tibs7]

And then use upb's invincibility to
win yeahuzzz.

 

[Player-3]

yeah i know

 

[tibs7]

Haha <3
maybe stick to brawl- falcon?

 

[Player-3]

obviously.

multi-hit falcon kick cancellable during the move's multi-hit hitbox into jump = sex on shield

lol it's like

falcon kick > sh nair crossover > pivot falcon kick

 

[tibs7]

B- sounds like a legit game then. Might start competive ey.

Edit: shaya you totally should start up a p3 fund for robocop.

 

[Player-3]

do it ******


it's AMAZING

 

[Blacknight99923]

in all honesty I have a hard time seeing how on an MLG (or really the BBR stage list which is what we are basing a tier list off of) how Diddy has an overall advantage over marth? I don't pretend to be experts on marth or diddy but I don't see how diddys fundamental character beats marth by a significant margin let along on a remotely liberal stage list

 

[Player-3]

marth cannot land agaisnt diddy unless he's very far away.

that's not a good thing.

 

[Pierce7d]

Mike, you're not late. This discussion was moved from the BR to here, so you couldn't see it before.

At this point, I'm sure I've explained the Diddy Kong MU 9000+ times.

Step 1, Rush in and approach as Diddy is trying to get bananas
Step 2, Maintain Pressure and force Diddy to the edge while he's banana-less
Step 3, Trap him there as long as possible.

When Diddy gets bananas

Step 1, Retreat. Diddy has 0 reliable openings when he is properly set-up defensively.
Step 2, Learn to infiltrate his wall when Diddy attacks you. You want to seize control of at least one banana.
OR
Wait until a banana disappears. Diddy must throw a banana at you to approach, and this is far from an infallible approach.
Step 3, Once you have broken into Diddy's defenses, return to pressuring him. When he's not holding a banana, all standard pressure tools work on Diddy. When he is holding a banana, GRAB.