Brawl- 2.1.1 Legacy thread

[MonkUnit]

I know that the Mario scrolling stages are faster to be more 'Minus-fied,' but the stage insta-killed me before the match even started, not to mention it's now super-easy to just grab the opponent, wait a short bit and then toss them into the blast zone. I know all stages can't be competitive, but that stage is going in the wrong direction, in my opinion.

Let's make it go backwards.

 

[theEffinBear]

Let's make it go backwards.

dude... you got to MOVE it. BACK-WAYS

The RSBE vs RSBP thing, that one's on me -- in my defense, I was a callow youth who didn't know any better when I failed to rename the folder. If you have a PAL installation with an "rsbe" folder, rename it to "rsbp" and everything should work 100% perfectly forever (and you don't have to worry about this if the folder is already named "rsbp").

/RtEB

 

[cicerron]

Doesn't work for me, my wii freeze in the caution screen when I launch PAL SSBB with Gecko 1.3.9. Somebody has a suggestion?

 

[-LzR-]

Brawl- still as good as ever! Ever since 2.0 many BS things were removed like Samus just spamming missiles and beating everything with it >_>
And some stuff like Ness fair and MKs nado spiking or related. Looking really good so far.
Keep it up guys, we had really fun time playing this!

 

[Virum]

Oh btw guys, I made a Shadow the Hedgehog PSA (omg overdone character much XD but hear me out). I plan on making a Brawl- version of it but I'll probably need a couple of pointers. Here's a video of my PSA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHdNzU8IYGk

What should I base it around? Each Brawl- character seems to have their own gimmick to work with. For this Shadow, one of the things I was thinking was making the Up B omnidirectional which will be landing cancellable in the air to essentially make a supped up Melee Air Dash and Wavedash, as well as a load of general buffs like his F Smash getting tilted variations. I'll probably need a little assistance balancing it when I'm done too.

I'm sorry if I'm putting this in the wrong place by the way...

 

[107]

I have a few errors to report with the PAL release, the rel files and common3.pac are from the NTSC version, causing the game to freeze upon loading them (the menu texture freezes sometimes too)
Pokémon Trainer causes the game to freeze when selected on the CSS, Yoshi froze the game twice during gameplay, the first time was on Yoshi's Island Melee, when his up-tilt clashed with Ike's side b, and the second time was on Battlefield, when he passed through the right platform at the start of the match.
Also, the readme talks of a file called "common5.pac" but no such file is included.

 

[MonkUnit]

...did ANYONE in the BMBR test this PAL **** AT ALL? Jesus christ.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Probably not.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I told Kwalk how to put it together... >.> Yeah I should've tested it. Lemme take down the download...

 

[theEffinBear]

Doesn't work for me, my wii freeze in the caution screen when I launch PAL SSBB with Gecko 1.3.9. Somebody has a suggestion?

1: make sure that your filepath is "$SD_CARD/private/wii/app/rsbp/"; if the folder is named "rsbe", rename it to "rsbp".
2: download this zip file: http://www.mediafire.com/?oba1mae58ar622a and use its contents to replace the "codes" folder in your previous Minus 2.1.1 PAL installation.

If it still freezes after following those two steps, we can try to work through it from there.

/RtEB

 

[Lightosia]

Is there a changelist from 1.6 to 2.0?

I lost this update. Now I'm back to Minus!

 

[Linkshot]

What, BPC didn't put it up yet? Sheesh.

There's a link to the TXTs up until we started using SVN in the IRC's topic, so hang out there if you'd like!

 

[Xyless]

...did ANYONE in the BMBR test this PAL **** AT ALL? Jesus christ.

Has it not been covered that only, like, two people (three including the twins) have access to PAL at all? And of those, 1 (Rkey) has been gone forever and the other (BPC) doesn't really test. And the twins don't play minus anymore.

Also I believe that's a case of "pot calling the kettle black" if there were one.

 

[DtJ Glyphmoney]

Very seriously considering trying to put together a Brawl- tournament with my old vBrawl connections

 

[JOE!]

I would so go to a Brawl- tourney, its just I'm in Boston and far way from like everything :/

 

[Sosuke]

Very seriously considering trying to put together a Brawl- tournament with my old vBrawl connections

host it at my house so i can win :star:

 

[cicerron]

1: make sure that your filepath is "$SD_CARD/private/wii/app/rsbp/"; if the folder is named "rsbe", rename it to "rsbp".
2: download this zip file: http://www.mediafire.com/?oba1mae58ar622a and use its contents to replace the "codes" folder in your previous Minus 2.1.1 PAL installation.

If it still freezes after following those two steps, we can try to work through it from there.

/RtEB

Does not work either, but thank you for your answer anyway!

But I tried to delete common3.pac and, after that, it worked. For cons, I haven't the voices of the characters ^ ^.

 

[Linkshot]

I would so go to a Brawl- tourney, its just I'm in Boston and far way from like everything :/

I'd host a Brawl- tourney but Ottawa's tournaments are now held by an organisation that encompasses all competitive games. No room.

Also I get laughed at when I mention taking a hack competitively.

 

[DtJ Composer]

For any midwesterners my tournament in July has Brawl-


Also Midglyphsterners.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ran a Brawl- bracket at M2N. Notables at the tournament:
-Semifer (top european wolf, showed me some VERY nasty tricks with DK)
-Kaos (top european MK, made it to losers finals before falling prey to my DDD)
-Xawas (****ing amazing luigi, went basically completely undefeated into winners finals and then couldn't stick around for grand finals)
-Me (Semifer beat me in winners, I won winners finals against Kaos and then Xawas was gone)
-Kunai (solid TL)

Results+bracket coming in a sec... As many vids as we have coming later.

...Shame YIKARUR didn't want to play. You jerk. I had you as 10th seed along with orion (who also didn't play in the bracket >.>).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Wait, Orion is in Europe?

Iunno, for some reason I always assumed he was in America.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

<placement><name><characters><lost to in winners/lost to in losers>

1: BPC (////) (Semifer/-
2: Xawas (/?) (DQ/DQ–he had to go I don't think I could beat him, either)
3: Kaos () (Xawas/BPC)
4: Kunai ( ) (Xawas/BPC)
5: Semifer () (Xawas/Kunai)
5: Gardex (/?) (Xawas/BPC)
7: Afro () (Set loss due to just not being there/BPC)
7: Tsuna () (Kaos/BPC)
9: Fire () (Gardex/Afro)
9: Nyan (?) (Bilo/Kunai)
9: ShadowTL () (Kunai/Tsuna)
9: chaiir () (Fire/BPC)
13: Wood ()
13: Nequ (?)
13: Nico ()
13: Yanbo (?)
17: Bilo ()
17: Stiv (?)
17: Yaaay ()
17: Crimson (?) (DQ'd due to not being there)
17: Akuma (Snake)
17: Kenji (?)
17: Deep (?)
17: Yikarur (forfeit at the beginning)
25: MewMewZone (?) (DQ'd due to not being there in losers)
25: Oni (?)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

No Bowser? These people need to branch out to more characters. I mean, Ice Climbers are pretty badass now that I'm starting to get the hang of them. Most technical character in the game imo.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I forgot... I used bowser. Notes coming soon.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

YES. GO BOWSER.

Also lol, you play 75% of the characters I do. I main Ganon/Dedede/Bowser/Ice Climbers.

My ICs is getting better than the other 3 though.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I play ICs from time to time as well. Fun as **** to mash with, shame I'm awful with them. DDD is probably my best character, and TBH I think he's the best character in the game.

Notes from the tournament:
-Tournament used the B-BR ruleset with just a few changes... Green Greens was legal instead of DL64, and there were 3 stage bans instead of 2. The ruleset was, IMO, thoroughly successful. There were very few complaints.

-DK has a really nasty trick. Grab, cargo throw forwards while airborne, and then with correct timing, sideB (use it to delay slightly)->fair. Sourspot, but still will kill really, really early. Also **** barrels.

-Luigi is just ****ing stupid. I mean, seriously. It's not even necessarily that he's too good... Just... he's easy. Like, Xawas's luigi? We played an MM. He beat me 4-1. Then after the MM I started taking him to Luigi dittos... and I kicked the **** out of him. I don't play luigi. Even if he's not the best character at the game, at lower levels he's obscenely overpowered... He's just way too easy. Compare to ROB, who is Noob-friendly but needs more to win at higher levels... Luigi has upB, he literally doesn't need anything else.

-Bowser ***** noobs... and almost everyone else too. I won a lot of games with good counterpicking... He's a very, very powerful character. People wised up quickly and started banning Warioware against me almost immediately, but... yeah... Dsmash is such an amazing ledge trap, it's ridiculous.

-DDD is a top tier character. No, seriously. DDD is a top tier character. He's so obscenely underrated it's not even funny. Smart waddle dee usage basically ensures a win, even against like, MK. I can't think of a matchup where DDD performs poorly... except maybe against Bowser. Or Weegee.

-Ganon is probably slightly overrated. He's good, but he's not that good.

-Yoshi... Oh my god the cancels. Seriously, sideB->sideB is amazing on shield, and on hit it's such an easy combo... Yoshi is obscene. I'm actually happy Yikarur didn't participate-he wouldn't have dropped a single match.

...Yeah. Good **** all in all.

 

[Orion*]

No Bowser? These people need to branch out to more characters. I mean, Ice Climbers are pretty badass now that I'm starting to get the hang of them. Most technical character in the game imo.

I used bowser in the older build.

Idk how much you guys changed him since the last build though so I wasn't to confident in using him. Bowser gives me **** habits in brawl, and since this build was new I didn't even know what I could SA through or not (assuming it's even the same...). Wolf and Pit where close enough that I just went them for funsiez.

My only problem with this is...

I felt like I was adapting more to the ****ing stages than the new game mechanics. I don't mind the ******** stages, but if the games already going to keep being changed, is super inconsistent and assuming you want people to learn it, you should probably not have so many ridiculous ones imo.
Nothing to do with stage debate or whatever, it's your game but if you want people to take it seriously they have to learn it LOL.

you played DDD vs me, and the character was already different enough from the old version that I had to adapt to figuure out the optimal ways to play the game to not get ***** by you literally mindlessly throwing out attacks. I don't mind this it's a brick wall, but especially in Europe if you want this to work it makes more sense to start out with a few and then gradually go up.
The fact that you had a legitimate LIST of stages and I didn't know what any of them even where (some didn't even work) it felt stupid. The players who are still trying to out the game that I talked to felt the same.

 

[Yikarur]

-Yoshi... Oh my god the cancels. Seriously, sideB->sideB is amazing on shield, and on hit it's such an easy combo... Yoshi is obscene. I'm actually happy Yikarur didn't participate-he wouldn't have dropped a single match.

...Yeah. Good **** all in all.

hihi don't overrate it so much, there are a lot match-ups that are really hard for Yoshi.
Bowser is really hard, I don't know the match-up though, I've never played one but it didn't seem to be easy because I just can't do the combo stuff.
The sideb into sideb combo are nice but only hit trice on DK, twice on mid weights and once on light weights (additional hits) and combos into free aerial. It's not easy to hit with it if the opponent is aware though.

I think a lot of characters are equal "broken" if they're figured out enough. (look at Semifers DK <3 so amazing and he doesn't use the frankling badge at all, he would **** even more if he would)

Yoshi is really cool and not easy to play, most stuff I can do is because I use the classic controller with very special controls

sorry that I didn't participate but my money got stolen at saturday and my hope in winning a bit was in brawl- and I was really disappointed when you said that there will be no pot because of lower attendance that way :/ and if I had played I would've felt bad for every winning because I could've got money instead
stupid thief :/

but all in all I really enjoyed the brawl- games I played, I really raged at playing Kunai because Toon Link is so stupid, it really killed the fun of the game for me for a second xDD

I love this game <3

I hope this game will rise in popularity, it's really fun and very skillful on a competitive level (I don't know if I could count that Toon Link spamming as skillful though xDD)

looking forward to future events (with Pot )

 

[Orion*]

Yoshi is pretty homo. Deltacod played him soooo gay

 

[Yikarur]

I never had to adapt to Stages because I only play on the obvious once (+1337m and the other new "static" Stages)

 

[Orion*]

I talked to a few people, mostly dutchies and that's we mostly agreed on. If/when the game becomes complete I wouldn't really care tbh, but considering the fact that it keeps changing and idk wtf to do half the time most people wanted something consistent if they are going to play in tournament/money whatever

 

[Yikarur]

Yeah they want a really balanced game so the changes are necessary to reach that goal.
I hope that there won't be drastically changes in the future though.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I personally wouldn't mind a couple more special taunts. But I pretty much am fine with it.

Damn all you people being all the way in Europe. People here in the GTA refuse to take it seriously. I'll get crap like "Brawl- will NEVER be competitive" and **** like that. I guess people being salty over Brawl+ dying, there was actually a fairly sizable community for it here.

Actually suddenly I feel like playing Brawl+. I miss it.

 

[DtJ Composer]

The idea right now is to coast on 2.1 for a long long time as far as I know.

(Not including the patch patch which was actually just a patch patch this time. Patch.)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I used bowser in the older build.

Idk how much you guys changed him since the last build though so I wasn't to confident in using him. Bowser gives me **** habits in brawl, and since this build was new I didn't even know what I could SA through or not (assuming it's even the same...). Wolf and Pit where close enough that I just went them for funsiez.

Bowser has 10% armor (need to do 11% to knock him out of it) on everything except hitstun, where he has 12%, and a few weird subactions like falling off a platform where he has none.

My only problem with this is...

I felt like I was adapting more to the ****ing stages than the new game mechanics. I don't mind the ******** stages, but if the games already going to keep being changed, is super inconsistent and assuming you want people to learn it, you should probably not have so many ridiculous ones imo.
Nothing to do with stage debate or whatever, it's your game but if you want people to take it seriously they have to learn it LOL.

Fine, next time I'll run less counterpicks.

you played DDD vs me, and the character was already different enough from the old version that I had to adapt to figuure out the optimal ways to play the game to not get ***** by you literally mindlessly throwing out attacks.

There's a difference between mindlessly spamming waddles and setting up a careful brick wall. You might not see it, but trust me-it's there. It's actually really hard to successfully wall with DDD against characters who can approach from the air well.

I don't mind this it's a brick wall, but especially in Europe if you want this to work it makes more sense to start out with a few and then gradually go up.
The fact that you had a legitimate LIST of stages and I didn't know what any of them even where (some didn't even work) it felt stupid. The players who are still trying to out the game that I talked to felt the same.

The Brawl- Backroom ruleset was known for quite a while, I was using pretty much that with almost no real variation. But the stagelist is a real complaint, or what?

Yeah they want a really balanced game so the changes are necessary to reach that goal.
I hope that there won't be drastically changes in the future though.

The composer nailed it. We're going to be sticking with 2.1.1 until we see something that really needs changing, or we have sufficient metagame data to say that things need changing (think about half a year from now or so). Until then... At the very most we'll have small patch builds that fix little glitches or change one or two characters in fairly simple ways. I hope.

 

[Lord Chair]

I had a lot of fun with the Brawl- setups and the tournament as a whole, few pointers:

Meta Knight
I honestly believe MK didn't deserve so many nerfs after the last patch I played (probably a really old one, wouldn't be able to tell which one). His moveset now seems lacking in pretty much every way, a few non-participating Dutchies kept asking me if there was any difference between vBrawl MK and MKminus and I kept answering that there wasn't.

A lot of moves just didn't seem to have any special or new uses. I found myself mostly using nado to beat out broken hitboxes and following it up with the occasional juggle traps. Note the usage of the word 'trap' rather than 'combo', while I agreed with the weird uair I saw in earlier installments I simply didn't think the new one was actually more effective than the vBrawl one. The knockback is still too high at mid-high percentages to combo into a whole lot more than Shuttle Loop and that just doesn't quite cut it. When I see an opportunity to punish I'd pick almost any other move instead.

His assets in Minus are the same as in Vanilla only they are a lot weaker relatively since every other character has been so immensely buffed in more ways than just hitstun. Most characters now have tools to counter the moves that made MK overpowered, borderline broken in Vanilla and MK didn't really get more options to compensate that with. It's obviously not really a bad thing that he's more balanced in Minus than he is in Vanilla, but the relative nerf is a bit too much. His strengths are less powerful (characters having more ways to deal with his defensive game, nado and offstage game) and the cons he has in Vanilla (aerial mobility, difficulty with handling projectiles) are way more easily exploited.

Admittedly, some tools he had in vBrawl are still in the very same way applicable to Minus. My preference to use nado to counter some of the more annoying moves was the same manner of how I treat Nado in Vanilla. It's still a really powerful move, it's just no longer broken because it no longer covers all options.

Other tools, like ftilt, just lose all the shine they had in Vanilla. I saw no reason to ever use dtilt, it didn't seem to reliably link into grabs so that really just left me with ftilt or dash attack to follow it up with. Dash attack also seemed too slow to be a lot more reliable, and ftilt didn't really have interesting followups.

Ftilt and dtilt are way less interesting to use for spacing, most characters either have projectiles to deal with them or simply some ******** move with a lot of mobility, speed and range to beat it out. MK's walling is rather inefficient because he doesn't have the mobility to support it with. In Vanilla that wasn't as much of an issue and was more of a compensating con than what it is now: a severe handicap.

Transcendent priority isn't much of a help, especially against projectiles. In fact, it's probably worse than just having a lot of priority.

Conclusion: Not really able to conclude this, buff MK kkthnx

Stages
I'm not going to give a writeup on every individual stage, but I can give some food for thought on it. I honestly have the feeling that the stagelist is what would've been the recommended Vanilla stagelist if BPC was the omnipotent one of the international Smash community. I honestly do not mind his ideas about what the Vanilla stagelist should look like, but I don't feel it's wise to directly translate those ideas into Minus. Jungle Japes is an awful stage to include, projectiles are too strong in this game for such a stage to be allowed.

Projectiles are already stronger, both in terms of how powerful they are as in terms of shields being less effective to counter them with. I didn't play enough on Green Greens, but I imagine it would feature the same big flaw. Multiple stage bans do not solve the fact that counterpicking is too powerful with the variety of stages offered and I honestly think that removing these 'projectile CPs' would solve a lot. I didn't get the chance to really play anyone on 75m but I honestly didn't feel like sharking is all too easily countered in Minus...

Conclusion: Stages make counterpicking too powerful, the stagelist seems to be more of an 'ideal' vBrawl list rather than composed for Minus.

Heavy armor
No QQ about losing to Bowser, more of an insight into the design aspects of heavy armor.

Heavy armor is imo a very striking anti-fun mechanic. I sincerely hope the design team of Minus made the game to mostly be fun and coincidentally competitive. Heavy armor is, in terms of competition, balanced to an acceptable degree and careful implementation allows it to not be overpowered. 10% perpetual heavy armor is different, however. I'm not entirely up to date on the contemporary damage values, but it should pretty much translate into setup or combo moves not working, projectiles losing their charm, balanced multihit moves serving no purpose and it requires certain moves to be sweetspotted in order to work out (say, Kirby bair).

This is usually no problem in Vanilla because the HA values are relatively low, temporary 3-4% HA that require you to disable your character (Wario Bike, Snake cypher) are usually implemented to make moves viable. 10% HA without a cost is weird and is really only fun for the Bowser player. It's the same reason mana burn mechanics are considered unwanted, not because of the competition but mostly because of the intense anti-fun it features. You disable part of your opponents moveset not by stunning them or rooting them, but simply because you destroy a core resource.

The 12% HA during hitstun isn't even that bad. In neutral situations it's not an issue and it'd be more of a way to prevent endless combos of happening. It's perhaps still a tad too much, I wouldn't mind seeing it at 10%. It's a temporary buff that would likely be welcomed to weaken Bowser's most obvious flaw, being super comboable.

Conclusion: HA is fine so long as it's triggered and temporary, the most glaring reason to not implement it on Bowser the way it is is because of the intense anti-fun.

That's all for now, perhaps more later when I think of something exciting.

 

[Zef]

thats exaftly how i feel, dirt
lol
minus is so fun.. i wish we had a community here besides my like 3 friends who actually play

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Regarding the stagelist: it was my honest attempt to find a good, liberal stagelist for Brawl-. Were there real issues with JJ? I saw a really, really gay match (Fire vs. Akuma) which is honestly making me consider dropping it... GGs is already kind of on the border, we'll replace it with DL64 in the future (in fact, in the official ruleset, we already have).

...PTAD is staying. No, seriously, that stage is like, better than Delfino with the weakened cars and wall. It's not going anywhere while I'm involved on this project. YOU CANNOT TAKE IT FROM MEEEEEEE!!!1

You can't shark on 1337m. The floor isn't thin enough, and it's solid in both directions. The side platform may be an issue (dear god it's hard to approach a DK who's sitting there chucking barrels...), but if it is, that's an easy fix, I suppose.

Bowser... He's staying that way at least until the next major release (which probably will take quite a while). I've heard a fair number of complaints, so I suppose it's fair to say that we will take a good, hard look at him to figure out how to deal with this. The issue of balance is still there; he's a really hard counterpick, and if your opponent doesn't ban Warioware, a pocket bowser will really wreck you (Bowser is just OBSCENE on Warioware due to the combination of platform setup and blastzones).

MK... What if we gave him real priority? Like, like what marth has? How stupid would that be?

Also... potential for a real Brawl- side-event at BiB2? We shall see... A certain special someone really liked Brawl- when he played it in the bracket... :V

 

[Zef]

wwhy are you guys so far whyy :<

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Europe loves Brawl-. :D