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Brawl+ Character Balance : Character 6: ICE CLIMBERS (LAST THOUGHTS)

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Shell

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So ChuDat's been playing Brawl+, has he said anything about IC?

I have as much IC experience as I have DDD experience (next to none) but for what it's worth I like Cape's suggestions to make more moves combo into grabs but remove the infinites.
 

GHNeko

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Or lengthen the delay of Nana, so it takes her longer copy Popo. The thing about the infinite is that Nana regrabs immediately after the throw. if Nana takes to long to grab though, the infinite is broken.

Sooo this method might allow for CGs that are percent specific, but could possibly remove the infinite.

Because I really REALLY think this is a good idea. <_<
 

Slashy

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We should remove the ending lag on their dash attack.

Make their dash speed greater to help with their lack of friction to perform better combos. This can be weakened with their current "floatiness".

Squall Hammer needs less button presses for its recovery.
 

iSpiN

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Make Nana unable to grab if you want to remove infinites.

I want IC's to have a good metagame though, if we remove the infinite we need to realize we are completly changing the character and ppl who do play with IC's will be turned off.

Make grabs 1 or 2 frames slower? D:
 

Blank Mauser

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Quick question, do the ICs have any redeeming factors beyond their throw? Surly someone has come up against a main that didn't go for throws.

Would it be possible to perhaps increase the stun on the moves of the cpu player to allow for better combo setups? Maybe a type of slow down effect for said cpu moves to relate back to their ice theme? What about giving their ice cube attack a reflective property as it moves across the stage and taking away the knock from the down b or increasing the time the person is encased in the ice? Don't know if any of this can be done but its worth a shot.
I've played Lain, and can say the IC's have more than just throws. Its tricky as heck to think you can punish Popo and then Nana just comes out and uairs you. Not to mention the combo breakers, the fact its hard to grab them yourself, and the range at which they can resync catches people off guard so much lol.

IC's have to work pretty hard for their grabs in this game. Honestly I don't think infinites should be removed. One grab should = stock when its a good IC's anyways, unless you plan to take away desync grab combos/resets too. Amount of skill it takes is subjective, and I definitely think IC's take a lot of skill.

I'd rather have TO's decide to ban infinites first in their tourneys before even thinking about taking away Nana's regrab.
 

Revven

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Even Omniswell said not to get rid of the throwtothrow infinite. I think that because of shieldstun, lower lag on aerials, and safer approaches ICs can't grab as easily anymore. I think we should just buff them in areas they seem weak in and see if they actually USE those buffs and maybe they won't throwtothrow as often anymore and see where they go from there.

I hate infinites as much as the next guy but, I don't think we should take something away that's not banned in vBrawl.
 

Teronist09

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Make Nana unable to grab if you want to remove infinites.

I want IC's to have a good metagame though, if we remove the infinite we need to realize we are completly changing the character and ppl who do play with IC's will be turned off.

Make grabs 1 or 2 frames slower? D:
They have little to no metagame outside of cgs, so they just would have to re-evolve their metagame to fit around not having infinites or only having one of them. I would personally like to see more desynching AT's that didn't involve grabbing, but I don't see that happening when grabs are the primary skill trained.


In all reality I want to see more of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvM-oOnCsPg
The footstool is like 100 times easier than the other one. I helped someone practice it once and they got it in like 5 minutes.
 

Plum

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Soooo..... You want to remove alt grabs while keeping their footstool infinites that do the EXACT same thing as an alt grab by removing all control from the opponent and force them into zero to death?

I dunno if that was the wrong like or something but isn't one of the goals to remove infinites? Hobbling and other footstool methods are just another infinite...
But this brings up another point... How would removing footstool infinites be accomplished? You could remove the alt throws and buff every move they have, but if hobbling is still there then why wouldn't any Ice Climber player not just hobble zero to death for the win?
 

cobaltblue

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I've played Lain, and can say the IC's have more than just throws. Its tricky as heck to think you can punish Popo and then Nana just comes out and uairs you. Not to mention the combo breakers, the fact its hard to grab them yourself, and the range at which they can resync catches people off guard so much lol.

IC's have to work pretty hard for their grabs in this game. Honestly I don't think infinites should be removed. One grab should = stock when its a good IC's anyways, unless you plan to take away desync grab combos/resets too. Amount of skill it takes is subjective, and I definitely think IC's take a lot of skill.

I'd rather have TO's decide to ban infinites first in their tourneys before even thinking about taking away Nana's regrab.
Ok, so we should develop those combos/moves beyond the throw. We're four pages in and only like 3 people have suggested anything that didn't relate back to their infinite or grab game. As teron said we should try to let the ICs develop a new metagame be it freezing, hard to combo, whatever.
 

GHNeko

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Soooo..... You want to remove alt grabs while keeping their footstool infinites that do the EXACT same thing as an alt grab by removing all control from the opponent and force them into zero to death?

I dunno if that was the wrong like or something but isn't one of the goals to remove infinites? Hobbling and other footstool methods are just another infinite...
But this brings up another point... How would removing footstool infinites be accomplished? You could remove the alt throws and buff every move they have, but if hobbling is still there then why wouldn't any Ice Climber player not just hobble zero to death for the win?

If the input delay to Nana was increased, ICs couldnt do the footstool infinite either. ._.
 

Ulevo

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Even Omniswell said not to get rid of the throwtothrow infinite. I think that because of shieldstun, lower lag on aerials, and safer approaches ICs can't grab as easily anymore. I think we should just buff them in areas they seem weak in and see if they actually USE those buffs and maybe they won't throwtothrow as often anymore and see where they go from there.

I hate infinites as much as the next guy but, I don't think we should take something away that's not banned in vBrawl.
SMK hit the nail on the head.

I ENCOURAGE READERS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THIS:

People feel the need to remove this tactic because it is regarded as an "infinite", and that is all that matters to them. I will for the sake of proper discussion ignore my disrespect to those with said train of thought and focus on what is actually important.

First of all, lets look at the fact. What infinites have we removed?

1: King Dedede's standing CG on six characters; Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and King Dedede on a ledge.

2: Grab Release infinites, such as Marth on Ness, Yoshi on Wario, et cetera.

3: Wall infinites, such as King Dedede's CG.

Some major differences between these examples in which were removed, and the IC "infinites" some are proposing to get rid of:

1: Nana/Popo/CPU must be alive.

2: Nana/Popo/CPU must be near Popo when the grab is initiated.

Unlike King Dedede, or other said characters, IC have requirements other than simply grabbing the opponent in order to have the "infinites" start, let alone work. This also means there are a multitude of exploiting options to prevent these requirements from being met, and thus avoiding the "infinite" from taking place.

Also, I'd like to outline that the IC also have significantly inferior grab range to many of the other characters who hold an infinite on another character. Characters like Marth, Charizard, Yoshi, and especially King Dedede far exceed the grab range and grab game of the IC. This also holds weight in the differences between the IC and other characters with potential "infinites".


Now, what are the reasons for removing the other infinites? Obviously it isn't because "infinites are gay". We would be stupid to assume this, right? So what are the reasons?

1: They distort character match ups, and even to the point of potentially threatening the viability of characters in a tournament setting.

2: They limit the options for viable stages.

Fair enough reasons right? I think so. Now, lets look at some other facts.

Ice Climbers never presented the problem of limiting stages with their "infinites", since they can be used basically anywhere. So the main issue was the problems presented with specific character match ups; specifically characters who couldn't effectively defeat or combat their shield game. Lets look at some of their best match ups:

King Dedede
Falco
Fox

Just to name a few. I am by no means an IC expert, but I do know that these three character struggle immensely against the IC. Now, the reason for the inclined match up against these characters is simple: they have no need to approach, and the opponent has no viable approach tactic. Why do they have no viable approach tactic? The shield is too powerful. IC out camp all three of these characters with Ice Blocks, and when they close the distance, they have no effective spacing tool that is either fast enough or long enough of reach for them to be safe at a close quarters to avoid being grabbed. All the IC is required to do is camp with Blizzard, and shield attacks when the opponent takes a risk (which has to be done in order to actually win).

Characters who do well against the IC usually tend to be fast characters with effective spacing tools, and the means to avoid being out camped. Some examples:

Meta Knight
Marth

Meta Knight is by far the worst fear of an IC main, and Marth is likely the second best bet. I've mained both characters extensively, and know they do really well in this match up. The reason is because (excluding the fact that they can avoid camping from afar) they have fast tools in close quarters that keep them safe from the shields that are so powerful, and can shield pressure effectively.

Ice Climbers, currently, are not dominating vBrawl, despite them having an "infinite" on every character. They sit on the bottom of C Tier on the SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0, and are ranked 10th currently in Ankokus Character Rankings List. This clearly outlines that not only are they not a threat to the meta game, but they are not even a dominating force, despite the tactics available to them.

"But this isn't vBrawl Ulevo, this is Brawl Plus" you say. Well correct you are! So what are the outlining differences here? Well, lets look at some of the reasons why the Ice Climbers CG's were arguably effective in vBrawl.

- Low shield stun, allowing for power shield grabs
- Low shield push back, allowing for dash grabs after a quick shield drop
- No methods to reduce attack lag, allowing for opportunities to grab from approaching opponents

As you can clearly see, with vBrawls mechanics, this can be quite troublesome. However, all of these problems are no longer a factor in Brawl Plus. Shield stun is increased, meaning Ice Climbers can no longer grab properly spaced or shuffled attacks. There shields push them back farther than before, meaning their abysmal grab range out of a dash and dash speed is even less useful. Lets also not forget that characters now have on the majority 50% less lag on aerial attacks than before, and have higher gravity and faster dash speed, increasing the mobility (and maneuverability) of almost every character.

Essentially what I am outlining is that Ice Climbers are clearly better in vanilla Brawl than they are in Brawl Plus, and yet they are barely in the C Tier status in vBrawl. They are significantly worse in Brawl Plus (in their grab game, and in other areas as well), and yet this has yet to be considered by many players. Despite this, players are prompting the choice to be made to remove the infinite when this would clearly make them worse than they clearly are, and are suggesting to provide buffs in other areas to substitute in which we wouldn't even have any idea as to how well they provide for the character.

Or if you want the short form, removing the infinite is competitively pointless at this time, and will only serve to hurt the character. For those of you wanting to get rid of the tactic for the IC because it is "gay", I strongly suggest you reevaluate your entire reasoning on this, as it has yet to come to fruition as to why this should be done in any logical manner at all.

Don't get grabbed.
 

Teronist09

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If the input delay to Nana was increased, ICs couldnt do the footstool infinite either. ._.
I'm not sure exactly how that would work, but wouldn't increasing input delay to nana make non-grab desynching AT's more difficult? (or possibly useless, I don't know what AT's they currently have that don't relate to grabs) Are there any other ways we could get rid of the infinites besides that and disabling Nana's grab?

Also, would there need to be a trade-off for losing the infinites? I thought of maybe giving Nana hitstun armor or something as a means of warding off combos.
 

GHNeko

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I'm not sure exactly how that would work, but wouldn't increasing input delay to nana make non-grab desynching AT's more difficult? (or possibly useless, I don't know what AT's they currently have that don't relate to grabs) Are there any other ways we could get rid of the infinites besides that and disabling Nana's grab?

Also, would there need to be a trade-off for losing the infinites? I thought of maybe giving Nana hitstun armor or something as a means of warding off combos.
Lolwut. More delay between Popo and Nana would make desyncing easier because you could buffer a move while Nana starts another one. Doing so would buff they're desync games and remove the infinite because nana would be too slow (cue sonic side taunt) to do a regrab after Popo's grab, but it could allow for CGs at higher percents that can be interrupted with DI. Their grab game might take a hit, but if they can still CG the hit isnt huge, and their main unique attribute, desyncing, would get a big buff.

This is all smash theory. There is only one way to proove it right or wrong.
 

Revven

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SMK hit the nail on the head.

People feel the need to remove this tactic because it is regarded as an "infinite", and that is all that matters to them. I will for the sake of proper discussion ignore my disrespect to those with said train of thought and focus on what is actually important.

First of all, lets look at the fact. What infinites have we removed?

1: King Dedede's standing CG on six characters; Mario, Luigi, Samus, Bowser, Donkey Kong, and King Dedede on a ledge.

2: Grab Release infinites, such as Marth on Ness, Yoshi on Wario, et cetera.

3: Wall infinites, such as King Dedede's CG.

Some major differences between these examples in which were removed, and the IC "infinites" some are proposing to get rid of:

1: Nana/Popo/CPU must be alive.

2: Nana/Popo/CPU must be near Popo when the grab is initiated.

Unlike King Dedede, or other said characters, IC have requirements other than simply grabbing the opponent in order to have the "infinites" start, let alone work. This also means there are a multitude of exploiting options to prevent these requirements from being met, and thus avoiding the "infinite" from taking place.

Also, I'd like to outline that the IC also have significantly inferior grab range to many of the other characters who hold an infinite on another character. Characters like Marth, Charizard, Yoshi, and especially King Dedede far exceed the grab range and grab game of the IC. This also holds weight in the differences between the IC and other characters with potential "infinites".


Now, what are the reasons for removing the other infinites? Obviously it isn't because "infinites are gay". We would be stupid to assume this, right? So what are the reasons?

1: They distort character match ups, and even to the point of potentially threatening the viability of characters in a tournament setting.

2: They limit the options for viable stages.

Fair enough reasons right? I think so. Now, lets look at some other facts.

Ice Climbers never presented the problem of limiting stages with their "infinites", since they can be used basically anywhere. So the main issue was the problems presented with specific character match ups; specifically characters who couldn't effectively defeat or combat their shield game. Lets look at some of their best match ups:

King Dedede
Falco
Fox

Just to name a few. I am by no means an IC expert, but I do know that these three character struggle immensely against the IC. Now, the reason for the inclined match up against these characters is simple: they have no need to approach, and the opponent has no viable approach tactic. Why do they have no viable approach tactic? The shield is too powerful. IC out camp all three of these characters with Ice Blocks, and when they close the distance, they have no effective spacing tool that is either fast enough or long enough of reach for them to be safe at a close quarters to avoid being grabbed. All the IC is required to do is camp with Blizzard, and shield attacks when the opponent takes a risk (which has to be done in order to actually win).

Characters who do well against the IC usually tend to be fast characters with effective spacing tools, and the means to avoid being out camped. Some examples:

Meta Knight
Marth

Meta Knight is by far the worst fear of an IC main, and Marth is likely the second best bet. I've mained both characters extensively, and know they do really well in this match up. The reason is because (excluding the fact that they can avoid camping from afar) they have fast tools in close quarters that keep them safe from the shields that are so powerful, and can shield pressure effectively.

Ice Climbers, currently, are not dominating vBrawl, despite them having an "infinite" on every character. They sit on the bottom of C Tier on the SBR-B Brawl Tier List v2.0, and are ranked 10th currently in Ankokus Character Rankings List. This clearly outlines that not only are they not a threat to the meta game, but they are not even a dominating force, despite the tactics available to them.

"But this isn't vBrawl Ulevo, this is Brawl Plus" you say. Well correct you are! So what are the outlining differences here? Well, lets look at some of the reasons why the Ice Climbers CG's were arguably effective in vBrawl.

- Low shield stun, allowing for power shield grabs
- Low shield push back, allowing for dash grabs after a quick shield drop
- No methods to reduce attack lag, allowing for opportunities to grab from approaching opponents

As you can clearly see, with vBrawls mechanics, this can be quite troublesome. However, all of these problems are no longer a factor in Brawl Plus. Shield stun is increased, meaning Ice Climbers can no longer grab properly spaced or shuffled attacks. There shields push them back farther than before, meaning their abysmal grab range out of a dash and dash speed is even less useful. Lets also not forget that characters now have on the majority 50% less lag on aerial attacks than before, and have higher gravity and faster dash speed, increasing the mobility (and maneuverability) of almost every character.

Essentially what I am outlining is that Ice Climbers are clearly better in vanilla Brawl than they are in Brawl Plus, and yet they are barely in the C Tier status in vBrawl. They are significantly worse in Brawl Plus (in their grab game, and in other areas as well), and yet this has yet to be considered by many players. Despite this, players are prompting the choice to be made to remove the infinite when this would clearly make them worse than they clearly are, and are suggesting to provide buffs in other areas to substitute in which we wouldn't even have any idea as to how well they provide for the character.

Or if you want the short form, removing the infinite is competitively pointless at this time, and will only serve to hurt the character. For those of you wanting to get rid of the tactic for the IC because it is "gay", I strongly suggest you reevaluate your entire reasoning on this, as it has yet to come to fruition as to why this should be done in any logical manner at all.

Don't get grabbed.
I mostly agree with this whole post simply because the ICs haven't been proven to be broken with their infinite in Brawl+ yet and a lot of ICs mains have made comments in their boards that the ICs are inferior to their vBrawl counterpart. This is because of the gameplay changes as Ulevo said.

I say, we try some of Cape's buffs but keep the infinite and see how it goes from there. They are seriously lacking in a lot of areas with their moves, and that's why they go for the grab the most. We gotta deter them from grabbing as much as they do as Brawl+ is more about being on the offensive than being defensive and trying to get a grab off. If we buff the moves that they need to be more offensive or a better character overall to make them focus less on the grabs, I think they'll be good and potentially better than their vBrawl counterpart but not as grab heavy.

What does everyone else think? It keeps the infinite so ICs mains aren't mad and buffs to ICs keeps ICs mains happy that ICs aren't ****ty and actually have good approach options other than grabbing. We have the power to remove the infinite whenever we want so, if it gets broken, we can take it out easily in one of the later versions of this game (or even in one of the sets after Gold when we have good tournament results). I think we should just focus on what they need to be better than just excelling in CGing, like I said, let's try some of Cape's ideas.
 
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...They are seriously lacking in a lot of areas with their moves, and that's why they go for the grab the most. We gotta deter them from grabbing as much as they do as Brawl+ is more about being on the offensive than being defensive and trying to get a grab off. If we buff the moves that they need to be more offensive or a better character overall to make them focus less on the grabs...
Tell me, if MK had a grab that instantly reduced a stock, would you not use it over his other moves? Or at least very often.
 

Anth0ny

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Do NOT get rid of the infinite cgs. Honestly, it's all they have. And they're still high mid tier (I believe) in regular Brawl. Like Falco400 just mentioned, if anyone feels that it's that broken in Brawl+ with the buffs that Iceys should receive, then perhaps the removal of the infinites should be considered.

But I doubt it. The CGs should NOT be removed. Maybe the knockback on the upsmash could be lowered so that it makes the player work a little harder for the kill at the end of the cg? For guys like Ambrose and Lain that I play often, it's a joke once they grab my MK ; _ ;
 

The Cape

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You can tech footstools people >.>

and even if we make them untechable again. You can still smash DI the hits inbetween.

The problem with the throw to throw thing is that it is an infinite you cant get out of.

Everyone hated DDD CG against a wall, but they dont hate this?

Its an infinite you cant get out of, but just because its a bit harder to learn you think it should stay in?
 

Teronist09

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I'd really prefer see how their metagame would develop with the CG/infinite out of the picture. People say they'd be terrible without the CGs, but their metagame is developed specifically around grabbing, so why not let them grow into something else? And even if losing their Cg does break them, we can just buff them to the point that they would be viable without them.

I would rather try out the buffs and get rid of the CG/infinite first and see where their metagame goes from there instead of throwing them out later if it remains a problem. If their grab game is weakened as you say then it would only serve to help them to remove the infinites for the time being and let their metagame outside of it grow.
 

Ulevo

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Everyone hated DDD CG against a wall, but they dont hate this?
The CG against a wall and a CG "infinite" on stage against a character with an inferior grab range, CPU required counterpart requirement are not the same thing. You can't compare the two when the only thing they actually have in common is that they are "infinite", and that's exactly what you're doing.

If Ganons Utilt led to a grab combo which was infinite upon contact, do you honestly believe that would be broken as well? Or that it would even be comparable? Make distinctions.

Its an infinite you cant get out of, but just because its a bit harder to learn you think it should stay in?
It has nothing to do with how hard it is to learn. It has everything to do with how effective it is, how efficient it is, and how easy it is to set up. As far as players like Ambrose and Lain are concerned, who have nearly mastered the art, how hard or easy it was to learn is completely irrelevant.

And right now, they are not effective, efficient, and easy to set up. Argue that, and you might actually have a case here.
 

tommz

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I'm a nobody on ssb and half that in ssbb+ but i do play other games competitively and in some im pretty impressive, that being said as a basic rule infinities, no matter how difficult or situational, get the "this game is for casuals lol" label quick, something this community seems to work very hard at avoiding... dont believe me look at tekken vs VF, the mishimas don't even have an infinite and they are routinely pointed to as breaking tekken . While Ulevo makes an excellent argument and is surely more learned i suggest still to follow Teronist09 due to the wider "metagame" shall we say of attracting players that i already have a difficult time turning on to brawl+ due to the fact "that hacking your wii will brick it", "ssbb is for casuals", and "fan based.. lol butthurt" arguments already eat up alot of my time. I dont need the "there's infinities. this is imba."

Anyhow thank you for taking such time to balance this mod, its the only reason i kept my wii.
 

iSpiN

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If we want to start making an IC's w/o a infinite or cg metagame then why don't we start off by figuring out their weaknesses?
 

CT Chia

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I hate infinites as much as the next guy but, I don't think we should take something away that's not banned in vBrawl.
This is not vBrawl. At all.

One of the main reasons why it's not banned (and believe me, I know being in the SBR having discussed it back there plenty of times) is because the ICs aren't broken with it and dominating tourneys. Taking this away would then make them even worse.

HOWEVER. This is not vBrawl, this is Brawl+. We can take out the infinite, and buff ICs in other areas to make them an even more viable character than before, just without infinites. Read The Capes posts here such as his long list of suggestions of changes (which were pretty much all awesome), and the vids he linked to. More of this, less of this...
 

iSpiN

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IC's are really good at Juggling right now, but lack a good approach. I could start Utilt > Uair chains with Bair/Usmash.

How about we give their B more hitstun? It has non right now.

Fair can combo into Fsmash or better yet Utilt then Fair which does 64% but it isn't practical unless they have bad DI. :(

Fair is good at combo'ing at low %'s still.
 

Team Giza

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I think its important that if we get rid of the throw to throw chain that we buff there ability to get a grab in by buffing the attacks that Cape suggested. We could also make it so rolls and sidestepping desync again like they did in melee. This combine with a few move changes would make the ice climbers be able to get grabs in easier while making there regrab game still insanely hard to escape.

There have been tournaments that have banned the ice climber chaingrab infinite and because of that I feel it is something we should avoid. We could easily make it so that ice climbers would usually get 0 to death from their grabs while avoiding true infinites.
 

Ulevo

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This is not vBrawl. At all.

One of the main reasons why it's not banned (and believe me, I know being in the SBR having discussed it back there plenty of times) is because the ICs aren't broken with it and dominating tourneys. Taking this away would then make them even worse.

HOWEVER. This is not vBrawl, this is Brawl+. We can take out the infinite, and buff ICs in other areas to make them an even more viable character than before, just without infinites. Read The Capes posts here such as his long list of suggestions of changes (which were pretty much all awesome), and the vids he linked to. More of this, less of this...
Why remove an aspect of a character if there is nothing wrong with it, Chibo? Especially when it pertains to the unique traits of a character in which we are trying to preserve?

You said it yourself-- they're not broken, and they're not dominating. And anyone can plainly see they have, along with their "infinites", become worse and less useful in Brawl Plus. There is no reason to change them.

Tell me, Chibo. Why should we remove the infinites? If they are not broken, if they are not dominating, if they are currently worse than what they once were, and the technique is unique to the Ice Climbers, why are we motioning to remove this?

I'm still waiting for an answer.
 

iSpiN

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Ok, its REALLY easy to de-sync IC's now.

I found something cool. I DD'd around DK at 110% and went to charge a Usmash and Nana did a Utilt and a had a ready Usmash ready to finish things off with Popo. Its not hard to do, but seems more flashy than anything else. :/
Why remove an aspect of a character if there is nothing wrong with it, Chibo? Especially when it pertains to the unique traits of a character in which we are trying to preserve?

You said it yourself-- they're not broken, and they're not dominating. And anyone can plainly see they have, along with their "infinites", become worse and less useful in Brawl Plus. There is no reason to change them.

Tell me, Chibo. Why should we remove the infinites? If they are not broken, if they are not dominating, if they are currently worse than what they once were, and the technique is unique to the Ice Climbers, why are we motioning to remove this?

I'm still waiting for an answer.
I would guess its the physics. So much easier to CG imo.
 

tommz

Smash Rookie
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Messages
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Why remove an aspect of a character if there is nothing wrong with it, Chibo? Especially when it pertains to the unique traits of a character in which we are trying to preserve?

You said it yourself-- they're not broken, and they're not dominating. And anyone can plainly see they have, along with their "infinites", become worse and less useful in Brawl Plus. There is no reason to change them.

Tell me, Chibo. Why should we remove the infinites? If they are not broken, if they are not dominating, if they are currently worse than what they once were, and the technique is unique to the Ice Climbers, why are we motioning to remove this?

I'm still waiting for an answer.
because in good competitive games theres ALWAYS a reason the other person is there, in many people's eyes infinties are inherently non-competitive.
 

Swordplay

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AHHH the footstool stuff. That was fun to learn.

You can tech footstools now so if you don't its your fault.

Personally I'd love to see the the infinites out but I don't think it should happen. I just don't see the IC move set being able to support them without the infinitives, no matter how much we buff them. You are more than welcome to try though.


Reasons

A. Right now there are a lot of mechanics in place that hurt the IC infinite. All of their infinite except grab to grab are gone now that you can tech a lot of it (footstools)

B. Shield stun makes it a lot harder to grab.

C. It only is disastrous to a few characters like ganon as most characters have tools to prevent this type of think. (counter pick character)

D. It would take a character overhaul unlike anything I've ever seen before. It would be like buffing/nerfing Link and MK 20 times over.



I really wish we did IC in the end when the community is bigger and we had more IC players. I don't think we are ready or capable to cover this character yet. Really, I kinda wanted to do IC more in the 20-30 area.
 

cobaltblue

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
455
Why remove an aspect of a character if there is nothing wrong with it, Chibo? Especially when it pertains to the unique traits of a character in which we are trying to preserve?

You said it yourself-- they're not broken, and they're not dominating. And anyone can plainly see they have, along with their "infinites", become worse and less useful in Brawl Plus. There is no reason to change them.

Tell me, Chibo. Why should we remove the infinites? If they are not broken, if they are not dominating, if they are currently worse than what they once were, and the technique is unique to the Ice Climbers, why are we motioning to remove this?

I'm still waiting for an answer.
1. Because when it is landed the person is screwed and can not get out of it.

2. It gimps the ice climbers game into being nothing but getting that grab before someone kills the cpu. This topic is a perfect example of that since apparently no one really has much an idea of what ICs do beyond attempt land the grab. Even the D3 topic had the notion of turning him into a minion factory of sorts.

3. Because we can tweak and fiddle with moves to a point where a character is almost brand new. In most cases I would say doing this is bad as others like to do this with viable characters. But with the ice climbers they truly need an over haul to get them off of being dependent of one strategy.

Typing all that out I just had another idea that'd be sweet if it could be implemented, what if the players characters got a damage increase to all their moves if the cpu character is ko? Would this be possible in anyway or does brawl just consider them separate characters somehow?
 

iSpiN

Smash Journeyman
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357
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IC's are going to be really hard to do. ._.

You have to de-sync to play to their full potential.


Like, I just did this Fair(Popo) > Dair (Nana) offstage and killed Peach at a low 30% cause Nana gimped her with the Dair. (double jumped Fair spike to Nana gimping Peach).

I feel like such a IC noob, haha.
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
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irvine, CA
infinites are generally poorly looked upon when it comes to a fighting game. they make a game look untested, unprofessional and sloppy. since we are in control of whatever we do in brawl+, we can get rid of the infinites. yes, they are not 'broken', but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't remove them. the claim that ice climbers have nothing besides infinites is silly because no one knows much about the ice climbers past that facet of their metagame. if you could just infinite, why bother working out any other strat? i think because players believe this is the only way ice climbers can be played, this is why people believe that it's the only option they are limited to.

but that is not the case with us. we are not limited by time restraints, budgets, or a simple tourney banning of certain things, we are limited only by the hacker's ability to alter the abilites of a character, the gameplay.. everything. which, as many of us can see, is almost unlimited. so to say the ice climbers have 'nothing' is stupid. because we can give them something. and now that we have all the space in the world, why not?

and honestly ulevo, coming from someone who didn't think metaknight's abilities were something to worry about, i have very little faith in your opinion.
 

Ulevo

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I would guess its the physics. So much easier to CG imo.
1) How is it easier to CG? Their main tool to land a grab, their shield, is significantly nerfed. It no longer can instantly grab characters after an attack has hit the shield, they get pushed back farther, characters have less lag then before to avoid shield grabs, not to mention many characters are being improved.

2) Assuming it is easier to CG (which it isn't), how would this make any difference? The ease of use of a technique does not translate in to how useful or powerful it is. If it is powerful enough to dominate (which the infinites are not), someone somewhere will learn the technique barring in mind it is humanly possible.

because in good competitive games theres ALWAYS a reason the other person is there, in many people's eyes infinties are inherently non-competitive.
And in the case of those many people, they're all wrong.

Non competitive, or rather, the lack of being competitive or something that prevents or hampers that of competitive play is something that prevents competition from thriving. If there is one particular strategy or one particular character that is so dominating to the point where any and all other strategies or characters are void; that promotes lack of competition. We're not talking about a dominating character, or even a dominating tactic. Hell, the technique doesn't even make characters have distorted match ups anymore, barring potentially a few less then adequate (and soon to be altered) characters.

You can be competitive in anything provided there is the means to be competitive.

1. Because when it is landed the person is screwed and can not get out of it.
If I use x attack with y character in z scenario, and I follow your DI correctly, you also can't get out of it. You're not even considering the difficulty in actually landing the grab against an equally skilled opponent. This isn't a reason.

2. It gimps the ice climbers game into being nothing but getting that grab before someone kills the cpu.
This is completely up to the discretion of the IC player, and the technique by no means dictates how the IC are played or even used. I've played Ambrose often, and I can assure you that he doesn't do "nothing but get that grab before someone kills the cpu". It isn't that simplistic. Again, even assuming this were true, which it isn't, it's a ridiculous reason.

This topic is a perfect example of that since apparently no one really has much an idea of what ICs do beyond attempt land the grab.
What an ignorant statement. First off, this is a balancing thread specifically to alter the IC to make them a character set in the appropriate place in the echelon to compete equally (or as close to) with every other character. If they have a problem with being too powerful, or if they present problematic match ups for certain characters, that also needs to be addressed. Hence why the infinite is even a topic of concern. It's not because everyone doesn't know what IC do except grab.

Also, I'd like to point out that very few of the people who have even posted in this topic have even used IC extensively, let alone main the character.

Even the D3 topic had the notion of turning him into a minion factory of sorts.
Sure?

3. Because we can tweak and fiddle with moves to a point where a character is almost brand new.
Why is this a reason? In order to tweak or fiddle with a character, we must have a purpose in doing so, otherwise we risk the balance of that character. Playing God for the sake of playing God is not a reason.

In most cases I would say doing this is bad as others like to do this with viable characters. But with the ice climbers they truly need an over haul to get them off of being dependent of one strategy.
They're not dependent on one strategy, and you stating as such displays how ignorant you are to the character. Players like Ambrose and Lain happen to face other equally skilled players such as King Ace and Anther on a regular basis, and still place or even beat these players. I assure you that Anther and King Ace, along with these other highly skilled players do not get grabbed often in a match, and that Ambrose or Lain (along with any other skilled IC main) will ever depend on a grab to win a match.


infinites are generally poorly looked upon when it comes to a fighting game. they make a game look untested, unprofessional and sloppy. since we are in control of whatever we do in brawl+, we can get rid of the infinites. yes, they are not 'broken', but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't remove them. the claim that ice climbers have nothing besides infinites is silly because no one knows much about the ice climbers past that facet of their metagame. if you could just infinite, why bother working out any other strat? i think because players believe this is the only way ice climbers can be played, this is why people believe that it's the only option they are limited to.

but that is not the case with us. we are not limited by time restraints, budgets, or a simple tourney banning of certain things, we are limited only by the hacker's ability to alter the abilites of a character, the gameplay.. everything. which, as many of us can see, is almost unlimited. so to say the ice climbers have 'nothing' is stupid. because we can give them something. and now that we have all the space in the world, why not?

and honestly ulevo, coming from someone who didn't think metaknight's abilities were something to worry about, i have very little faith in your opinion.
I am not only arguing for the fact that we have no need to change the IC infinites for the sake that they do not posses a problem for the meta game in Brawl Plus, but that they shouldn't be changed because it isn't simply something that should be dismissed as sloppy programming. That can be argued as well, and I feel no need to get in to it, as it's irrelevant anyway.

And Jiang, I do not care about your faith in my opinion. As long as what my words say make logical and concise sense, and yours don't, I'm perfectly fine with your faith or lack thereof.
 

tommz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 7, 2009
Messages
7
all i can say as a person who has organized tournaments is if you ever see a person who paid money get caught by an infinite , afterward you can with little doubt guarantee that's a person who will never enter another tournament in that game.

9 months after it's launch ssbb was still on the top 20 sellers list, how many people still play ssbb?, how many people play ssbb+?, keeping a consistently upheld imba tactic like an infinite combo on the basis that "Playing God for the sake of playing God is not a reason."... this is gonna get you balance and a wider audience, on an already shaky premise? Or do you think all the best gamers already play this particular mod?

IC is a weak character with a single nonsense tactic, if you want a serious balanced game you have to be willing to put alot of work into it.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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Mar 17, 2008
Messages
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Cleveland, Ohio
Let's stay on topic. Avoid calling out other posters please. Argue the statement, not who is posting it. It shouldn't matter if I'm posting it, Ulevo, or ****ing Obama is posting it.

IC is a weak character with a single nonsense tactic, if you want a serious balanced game you have to be willing to put alot of work into it.
I can personally agree with this post. But once again, I'd love to see more IC mains or alts. It seems like a lot of people who aren't good ICs or don't play good ones.
 

Teronist09

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
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468
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Greenville NC
If I use x attack with y character in z scenario, and I follow your DI correctly, you also can't get out of it. You're not even considering the difficulty in actually landing the grab against an equally skilled opponent. This isn't a reason.
But the error being made there would be the fault of the person being attack for being predictable/predicting. When grabbed you lose control and will not get out until you get KO'd, assuming the IC doesn't either let you out or make a mistake. It was argued in a previous thread that the IC infinite differs from other situations in that the person grabbed has no options until the grab is completed. In attacking situation, however, (assuming the attack initiated is not a true combo) there is always some option that can lead to at least minimizing punishment.

This is completely up to the discretion of the IC player, and the technique by no means dictates how the IC are played or even used. I've played Ambrose often, and I can assure you that he doesn't do "nothing but get that grab before someone kills the cpu". It isn't that simplistic. Again, even assuming this were true, which it isn't, it's a ridiculous reason.
Cobalt's statement was oversimple, sure. But I dont think it can really be argued that much of the IC metagame has been evolved that doesn't involve grabbing.
It is, as you say, up to the discretion of the player, but I haven't yet played an IC main who didn't more or less revolve around getting that grab. All players might not be like that, but I think a majority is. (possibly the lower skill level ICs)


They're not dependent on one strategy, and you stating as such displays how ignorant you are to the character. Players like Ambrose and Lain happen to face other equally skilled players such as King Ace and Anther on a regular basis, and still place or even beat these players. I assure you that Anther and King Ace, along with these other highly skilled players do not get grabbed often in a match, and that Ambrose or Lain (along with any other skilled IC main) will ever depend on a grab to win a match.
They're still just two people. Why should I have play with people at a high level of play to find IC mains who don't revolve around grabs?



I am not only arguing for the fact that we have no need to change the IC infinites for the sake that they do not posses a problem for the meta game in Brawl Plus, but that they shouldn't be changed because it isn't simply something that should be dismissed as sloppy programming. That can be argued as well, and I feel no need to get in to it, as it's irrelevant anyway.
Assuming there you're right, what is there to lose from turning them off for a little while? I'm fairly certain we're not talking about what's going into the final official set. We're going to be testing any changes that are to be made. What is there to be lost in redeveloping the character around something other than grabs when we can just turn them back on later? I adamantly feel that the IC should have their metagame developed around something other than grabs so that you don't have to be playing the highest level players to find something besides camping on the side of the stage waiting for a grab.
And besides, the most important thing to be said is that we can always just TURN THEM BACK ON at a later junction if none of this pans out.
 

Ussi

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I think we should be wary of ICs being able to attack and leave someone in shield stun while the other grabs. Too much shield stun might allow the other climber to grab too easily. IMO something to think about. Even though ICs can't shield grab/ PS grab anymore, but they also get longer shield stun and faster canceling aerials...

but offensive initiating infinites sounds better than defensive initiating.
 

cutter

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Seriously, Ulevo hit the nail on the head with that huge post of his.

If you guys want to get rid of the infinites anyway though, be prepared to completely rebuild an entire character from scratch if you have any hope of making ICs viable in Brawl+.
 
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