Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[kupo15]

I really wish we could be sitting down across a table to discuss this.. it would be much easier. ^_^

Im a little confused, you said that too much defense is what is wrong with brawl and I have to agree. Let me bring up this post

I would disagree about the Melee air dodging not fitting into Brawl. With directional air dodging, you can change where your landing is when you're using it for an actual air dodge.

If the air dodge were to just be falling, it would take away from the game since it would be predictable where you land, where as with directional air dodging, if someone tries to hit you, you can go behind them to escape them, as apposed to falling into a spot, air dodging, and staying in the spot you were going to land originally.

Directional air dodging makes for a much better escape plan so you can get back into the game yourself.

So basically this proves my point. If brawls current AD system is predictable where you land, then there is punishment and the defense goes down a little. With melee air dodging, you are actually increasing your defensive options.

See, I think Brawl+ should be hacking the game to make Brawl more competitive without changing brawl which means we should leave out melee specific things. Brawl already has an AD system so we shouldnt touch it yet. At least we should see how competitive brawl will be with the core game mechanics in place to attempt to balance things out (hitstun, no tripping, l cancel, maybe no auto sweetspot)

You dont need all of the mechanics of melee to have a competitive fighter. 64 was a solid competitive fighter despite how broken it was. Brawl can be a better version of 64. Wavedashing is not a core game mechanic in the smash as much as we would like to think it is and as much as it should be. It is the most amazing fluke ever to be put in a fighting game. You dont need wavedashing to space yourself in this game. You can do it fine given Brawls slower feel without it.

So basically, I believe that we should at least first hack brawl as much as to make it balanced but NOT to change it. We are trying to make Brawl+ Not Melee 2.0. This is why I propose for the moment to only hack:
Hitstun
l canceling
no tripping

because adding these elements wont change Brawl completely the way adding
high gravity
wavedashing
melee air dodge
Fox's shine cancel
etc

will.

And as I said before, if brawl on day one was melee 2.0, dont get me wrong I would love it. But I have played brawl for 7 months and I have went through my cursing moments with this game but I forced myself to adjust and I like Brawl. And all I think we need to do is to make brawl more balanced by hacking in the core game mechanics of the game that have been lacking.

 

[Wind Owl]

It sounds like your entire argument is that you're afraid of changing something you've gotten used to, and I can't say I'm able to sympathize with that. If it's better, who cares if it's different or not?

Also, WDing seems to fix problems that Brawl has, and that's why we want it in. In 64, no characters were as pathetically slow as Ike or Ganon. Every single character had at least a decent dash dance, and no movement speed was unacceptably slow. With Brawl, that's not the case. There IS no dash dancing in Brawl (don't try to tell me switching directions every other frame is dash dancing; you need to be able to cover distance for it to accomplish anything), and to some extent WDing restores this mobility. And please, don't tell me you're honestly trying to argue that Melee's AD's are less punishable than Brawl's; that's just ridiculous.

 

[Megachuk]

I might just have to pick up brawl now... these hacks are awesome!

 

[Ryuker]

Did anyone try this with the EU version? Cause I can't get it too work at the moment but I'm sure I've done everything described in the guide.

 

[Makkun]

Melee airdodging in the sense of using it to recover and have a safe landing is basically the same as Brawl's. In fact, I believe it is more OFFENSIVE than defensive, as you say, Kupo. If you are trying to land and your opponent is waiting where you're going to land in order to interecept you with a smash or whatever, either way you can just airdodge. However with Melee airdodging, you can airdodge into the ground behind your opponent and counter their smash with your own. With Brawl airdodging, you're helplessly airdodging into a shield going straight down. While you may argue that my example for Melee airdodging can be seen as more defensive, since you have more control over your dodge, you are also turning that defense around into a greater offense.

I hope this wall o' text is easy to understand.

Edit: The Homebrew Channel should work for European Wiis, but the current Brawl codes only work with the NTSC version of the disc. (USA)

 

[Ryuker]

Ah ok and the japanese version do they work for them?

 

[Makkun]

Ah ok and the japanese version do they work for them?

No, I wouldn't think so.

 

[Ryuker]

No, I wouldn't think so.

Is there someone working on getting the codes to work for the eu or japanese version?

 

[Makkun]

Is there someone working on getting the codes to work for the eu or japanese version?

Well we don't exactly have an active hacker at the moment. I know Cero and I are trying to get a hold of USB Geckos so we can learn, but that may take a few months.

 

[MuBa]

What language do you need to learn in order to hack the Wii?

Is it C++?

 

[Makkun]

What language do you need to learn in order to hack the Wii?

Is it C++?

I'm not positive what the language is for hacking the Wii and making homebrew applications, but I think it's a form of C++.

Hacking Wii for things such as Brawl codes is simply modifying assembly code, I think.

 

[Ryuker]

Well we don't exactly have an active hacker at the moment. I know Cero and I are trying to get a hold of USB Geckos so we can learn, but that may take a few months.

Hmmk. I was reading the wiird forums and I saw a lot of posts asking about porting codes from versions to other versions. Would it be as simple as that or does someone have to start them from scratch?

 

[MuBa]

I was tinkering around with Captain Falcon today and all I have to say is that he may become even MORE creative than Melee once we get a hitstun (limited to throws [ban infinites if we have to], tilts and aerials) and a fastfalling (kinda like heavy brawl but keeping the same jump height).

Seriously, that's all we need and hope that we don't end up finding like a million infinites.

 

[Makkun]

Hmmk. I was reading the wiird forums and I saw a lot of posts asking about porting codes from versions to other versions. Would it be as simple as that or does someone have to start them from scratch?

I'm not sure.

@MuBa: Don't hope for a hitstun code. Though I hope we can at least TEST one.

 

[Ryuker]

I'm not sure.

@MuBa: Don't hope for a hitstun code. Though I hope we can at least TEST one.

K well I'm gonna try to get my hands on a usa version then. Thanks for the advice.

 

[B.W.]

I really wish we could be sitting down across a table to discuss this.. it would be much easier. ^_^

Im a little confused, you said that too much defense is what is wrong with brawl and I have to agree. Let me bring up this post



So basically this proves my point. If brawls current AD system is predictable where you land, then there is punishment and the defense goes down a little. With melee air dodging, you are actually increasing your defensive options.

See, I think Brawl+ should be hacking the game to make Brawl more competitive without changing brawl which means we should leave out melee specific things. Brawl already has an AD system so we shouldnt touch it yet. At least we should see how competitive brawl will be with the core game mechanics in place to attempt to balance things out (hitstun, no tripping, l cancel, maybe no auto sweetspot)

You dont need all of the mechanics of melee to have a competitive fighter. 64 was a solid competitive fighter despite how broken it was. Brawl can be a better version of 64. Wavedashing is not a core game mechanic in the smash as much as we would like to think it is and as much as it should be. It is the most amazing fluke ever to be put in a fighting game. You dont need wavedashing to space yourself in this game. You can do it fine given Brawls slower feel without it.

So basically, I believe that we should at least first hack brawl as much as to make it balanced but NOT to change it. We are trying to make Brawl+ Not Melee 2.0. This is why I propose for the moment to only hack:
Hitstun
l canceling
no tripping

because adding these elements wont change Brawl completely the way adding
high gravity
wavedashing
melee air dodge
Fox's shine cancel
etc

will.

And as I said before, if brawl on day one was melee 2.0, dont get me wrong I would love it. But I have played brawl for 7 months and I have went through my cursing moments with this game but I forced myself to adjust and I like Brawl. And all I think we need to do is to make brawl more balanced by hacking in the core game mechanics of the game that have been lacking.

My point was that you shouldn't be punished for air dodging unless you air dodge incorrectly. Being punished for a nerfed Brawl air dodge due to not having full control of where you wish to land isn't exactly what you would call a fair punishment. With Brawl air dodging your landing point is going to be predictable every time. There won't be an end to you getting hit until you're either dead, or the person magically screws up. Which I can assure you won't happen because magically screwing up was called tripping, and we tossed that honky.

You say you want to balance things out, and with Melee air dodging you can, because if you mess up your DI and air dodging, then you get knocked up/away/where ever and you'll have more control of your landing point. Eventually you're going to get yourself back in contact with the ground, unless you really really suck. It gives you more control over your character, helping you develop your own way to play. Wave dashing does that as well. It's not so much adapting that we're having a problem with, it's that the game isn't giving us much to work with in the first place. In some areas just altering stuff to be entirely different than anything else isn't going to work. Sometimes it's best to stick with the old. Just because it's been done, doesn't mean it can't be done again.

Also, no one was planning on bringing back anything from Melee aside from the Melee air dodge (well as far as I know). Fox's shine cancel, high gravity. These would take away from Brawl, and I'd like to keep it Brawl as much as possible, but the one thing I'd rather it be over Brawl is to be a competitive fighting game. I don't complain much about wave dashing because I know the game would be fine without it, but the fact of the matter is we really do need directional air dodging. And we can't have directional air dodging while getting rid of wave dashing, and I'd rather not take out a very important part of the game just to take out wave dashing.

Plus wave dashing isn't really a bad thing to begin with, it is another thing that gives you more control over your character, and one thing it didn't do in Melee was make you go faster than your actual dash (unless you were Luigi or IC's and a small few more). Thanks to the way Brawl is made, it has a wave dash that differs from Melee's in a few ways. All we needed was the directional air dodge to make it happen.

Aside: There's something I've been wanting to test regarding hitstun, but I don't have my own copy of Brawl. I tried to have my mom rent one (works at a video store, free rentals. Aww yeeah) but they didn't have it, and they apparently still don't.

Apparently only air dodging and A-button attacks work after being hit, though I'm having a hard time believing this. Could someone just turn on Brawl, normally. Maybe have someone to play with locally so there's no lag. Just rack up a decent amount of damage, and when you go flying off, try to jump or use a B-button attack rather than air dodge or use an A-button attack.

If it's true that you can't jump out of your mid-air tumble, or use B-attacks out of your mid air tumble then hitstun actually does exist, but the *******s at Sora Ltd. made it so you were able get out of it by using certain methods. If it does exist then all we'll need is to find a hacker (PW I'll be calling you out if this proves true!) who can disable the use of air dodging, and A-attacks after being launched.

Also a vid demonstrating you pressing buttons on the controller could help (and would be nice) people see that hitstun does/doesn't exist. There does seem to be a bit of confusion with it with people.

 

[MuBa]

Thanks to the mechanics of brawl and the melee air dodge code, I've already made a couple of ATs worth noting.

One of them is when you do a ledge hop (As in pressing the jump button when on the ledge) you can air dodge downwards and do a waveland, OR you can quickly shield grab your opponent. The Melee airdodge is giving more options in this game.

And I agree with Project-05 that if there's a formula that works, then use it. Just because it's been used in the past doesn't mean it can't be used in the present. Stick with what works rather than trying to make a deviant style that still makes the game as "Brawl" rather than "Melee 2.0"

 

[kupo15]

It sounds like your entire argument is that you're afraid of changing something you've gotten used to, and I can't say I'm able to sympathize with that. If it's better, who cares if it's different or not?

Also, WDing seems to fix problems that Brawl has, and that's why we want it in. In 64, no characters were as pathetically slow as Ike or Ganon. Every single character had at least a decent dash dance, and no movement speed was unacceptably slow. With Brawl, that's not the case. There IS no dash dancing in Brawl (don't try to tell me switching directions every other frame is dash dancing; you need to be able to cover distance for it to accomplish anything), and to some extent WDing restores this mobility. And please, don't tell me you're honestly trying to argue that Melee's AD's are less punishable than Brawl's; that's just ridiculous.

Ok so if you havent realized already, I suck at explaining myself so please bare with me.

No, my argument is not based on personal feelings so let me get that straight from the start. And I might as well get out my "credentials" or where I stand with competitiveness. I support it. I never got into core 64 gameplay cause I was too young and noob at the time. I did however get really into melee and the ATs so trust me when I say I am for the best fighting game.
I know where you all come from with your melee 2.0 goals because I share your feelings. I have shared the same anguish we all faced when picking up Brawl for the first time. I know just as much about smash as all of you also and I will not say anything dumb like brawls dashdance is fine...cause obviously its not. Please dont assume Im a fool.

About Melee AD being less punishable. I think you misunderstood me. Obviously going into the falling state after an AD is punishable. And obviously if you are dumb enough to air dodge way high, you are extremely punishable in the falling state. im saying that if you are a smart player who knows when to air dodge correctly, which is close to the ground most of the time, you are (and I have been corrected by Makkun) Offensively defending yourself with melee's air dodge system by having more options to get to the ground.

You make a mistake and are try to get to the ground. With melee's AD, the chance of punishment goes down because the opponent doesnt know where you are going to land. You can control your air dodge which makes it less punishable since you can fake out your opponent than Brawls since you have no control over your landing spot. This means that the opponent can just stand in the general spot you are going to land and punish. This is not true for Melee's AD.

I think the fact that meleee was ridiculously fast made it harder to punsh AD mistakes where as in Brawl, it is easier to punish MelProxy-Connection: keep-alive
Cache-Control: max-age=0

air dodge mistakes because you float more. See how Melee's AD in Brawl gives you more Defensive options by offensively changing your position which allows for less punishment than Brawls AD? Its about the direction you go with an AD, NOT how many times you can do it which is my point.

___________________________________

So basically here is my point arguing the dramatic changes we plan to do to Brawl.

-You dont need WDing to have a competitive fighting game
-You dont need directional air dodging to falling state to have aerial punishment

I propose that we see how brawl does competitively with the core game mechanics first before deciding to further balance it.

Remember, I loved melee and I have been on your side of the fence. But I am pointing out some facts on the other side of things.

 

[Slither]

hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun hitstun

 

[kupo15]

Project posted while I was typing. Two things, We both agree that we should keep brawl as much as brawl as possible which is good. I feel that wavedashing changes brawl too much since WDing. It is not a core game mechanic and 64 was competitive without it (maybe for the wrong reasons but still)

As I mentioned before about hitstun. Yes. Brawl has hitstun built in since you can use be moves until the tumble which varies depending on perc. The developers just allowed you to AD, jump and use A attacks before the tumble which you couldnt do before. This means that hacking hitstun should be EASY!!!!! Yay!

 

[kupo15]

sorry for my double post but this school cpu wont let me edit grr...

This is my main argument against changing the AD system and WDing brawl

I propose that we see how brawl does competitively with the core game mechanics first before deciding to further balance it.

If it is still not what we want, then we can experiment more with directional AD and sttuff

 

[MuBa]

Lol we need Phantom Wing for this yet again.

 

[smash superstar]

so what do i need to save the code as when i save it as a text file?

 

[Revven]

0WN1N (Lucas) VS. ANTZ! (Falco)

Another video, I messed up so hard at the end. D:

 

[Fenrir]

Project posted while I was typing. Two things, We both agree that we should keep brawl as much as brawl as possible which is good. I feel that wavedashing changes brawl too much since WDing. It is not a core game mechanic and 64 was competitive without it (maybe for the wrong reasons but still)

I agree with that. Not to mention the wavedashing implementation we have so far is awkward to use compared to Melee's. The L-Cancel is a bit off, too, but that's probably fixable in the long run. I also think that Lag Canceling always has been a more important technique than wavedashing anyway.

 

[Wind Owl]

Given a certain moderator's blatantly uncalled-for closure of our other topic, I'm considering making a new forum (off of Smashboards). Problem is, those tend to lose steam very quickly. What do you guys think?

I would prefer to have our own subforum on Smashboards but the SBR seems too stuck up to create one for us (yes, I just went there. Prove me wrong, SBR).

 

[Fenrir]

Don't bother making a new forum unless you reeeeeally think it will get enough traffic. For any board or website to survive, it has to have a good enough reason for existing. Since this subject can be discussed here or on allsbrawl or any number of other places with high traffic, chances are that yet another forum would be more of a distraction than anything. More trouble than its worth.

 

[Makkun]

Given a certain moderator's blatantly uncalled-for closure of our other topic, I'm considering making a new forum (off of Smashboards). Problem is, those tend to lose steam very quickly. What do you guys think?

I would prefer to have our own subforum on Smashboards but the SBR seems too stuck up to create one for us (yes, I just went there. Prove me wrong, SBR).

Honestly, I do not want to have to move from Smashboards, but if we have to (temporarily?), then I'm all for it. All I know is I won't be surprised if the forum loses steam, as you said.

I'm still hoping for a subforum. I think we just need to prove to the SBR exactly how big this is/could be.

 

[smash superstar]

I just added this....its so cool!


it feels like a great combination of melee and brawl..

its like a whole new smash game

 

[smash superstar]

oh one thing i was wondering...which is better to use?


s cancel or l cancel?

 

[Wind Owl]

Well gee.

If only we had a topic to discuss that.

 

[Eight 52]

lol mods

I really can't wait to try this out though. It makes just about everybody usuable. I have to ask though, does the s canceling borke snake?

 

[Someone7]

Wavedashing is totally awesome in Brawl. It gives characters like Ike real approach options, and with the ease of wavelanding, it should present some interesting defensive options at low percentages.

 

[Someone7]

SamuraiPanda is an idiot, btw.

 

[Someone7]

S-canceling does not make Brawl more competitive. It just turns everything in an aerial game, because those would be the best attacks by far. Since you can grab or jump out of the shield immediately, with a little timing, you could spam shffl's extremely fast (jump, f-air, fast fall while holding shield, jump out of the shield immediately (you can't even see the shield come up), repeat). With some characters I can see this tactic being literally impossible to do anything against, such as those with extremely disjointed aerials.

 

[Maikeru17]

Smash Superstar and Someone7, please, PLEASE refrain from double and triple posting.
Thank you. :]


Here's a single video. :[
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pouEs3SCEG4 WD/SC
I'll record more tonight when I get home from work...


-Nox`

 

[Wind Owl]

The idea we had at the end was epicly perfect:

- All aerial lag is halved without a button press
- With a button press, you can eliminate all lag (goes into powershield animation) and 1/3 of your shield is depleted.
- "Power-canceling" does not break your shield (three power-cancels leaves you with a sliver left)

 

[cultofrubik]

and it allows laggy characters to play.

 

[kupo15]

sorry read below

 

[kupo15]

I agree. I cant believe Panda did that. SBR seems really stuck up to not give us our own sub forum. None of them reply to my emails. I am all for another place to maturely discuss this since smashboards is incapable atm.

I agree with that. Not to mention the wavedashing implementation we have so far is awkward to use compared to Melee's. The L-Cancel is a bit off, too, but that's probably fixable in the long run. I also think that Lag Canceling always has been a more important technique than wavedashing anyway.

I agree. I am actually used to the l cancel so tweaking that should be the last thing.