Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Xenesis]

See, that's the thing. Mashing shoulder buttons give me finger cramps. <_<;

 

[B.W.]

Because no matter how technically perfect you are, there is still a chance that you will miss hitting your LCancel, and you will most-likely be punished for it. There's the hope of punishment; and really. LCanceling is fun. <_< Just from pressing my L trigger I have much more fun playing the game. It's odd. I'm sure a lot of players can agree with me.

-Nox`

Could not have said it better myself.

 

[zxeon]

See, that's the thing. Mashing shoulder buttons give me finger cramps. <_<;

We can enjoy them together.

 

[CT Chia]

il upload the matches of me and wind owl probably tomorrow. toon link is on f-in steroids with l canceling! lol. shffl nairs ALL DAI!

 

[Maikeru17]

Xenesis, you need to workout your fingers more. :]

I should be uploading some matches soon, too, if YouTube finally stops being gay.


-Nox`

 

[zxeon]

Here's my vid showing Link with wavedash hack(l-cancel and tripping are also activated, yet not really demonstrated)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmL0lnMSVDE

Holy crap, Good show Oli.

 

[Wind Owl]

Here's my vid showing Link with wavedash hack(l-cancel and tripping are also activated, yet not really demonstrated)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmL0lnMSVDE

WTF Link for top tier

EDIT: If someone wants to make an updated vid list, I'll add it to the OP. Otherwise I'll just do it... later >_>
I don't really feel like it right now lol

 

[Xenesis]

Xenesis, you need to workout your fingers more. :]
-Nox`

That's not really the problem - I do a lot of finger work often (Eg, I used to fence biweekly and that requires a lot of fine finger control and strength in them, especially the index finger. A 500G foil that's about a metre long requires more finger strength to accurately control than pressing a 2cm button on a cube controller). The problem is that repetitive motions of the type used for trigger buttons will cause me to cramp excessively quickly. Non-repetitive motions are fine (See normal use of a gamepad for just about every other game), but my muscles have a huge tendency to cramp when faced with repetitive motions.

As such, wavedashing in Melee, or snaking in Mario Kart/F-Zero GX are basically unperformable for me without enduring constant cramping.

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

WTF Link for top tier

EDIT: If someone wants to make an updated vid list, I'll add it to the OP. Otherwise I'll just do it... later >_>
I don't really feel like it right now lol

Here are the vids so far...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5622604&postcount=253

 

[Vulcan55]

Actually, I posted two more Hackin' Barlw videos.
Wind Owl should know, he comments on them >.>

 

[Wind Owl]

Here are the vids so far...

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5622604&postcount=253

Oh, nice.. I'm not a fan of the #'s though, mind if I take them out?

 

[zxeon]

That's not really the problem - I do a lot of finger work often (Eg, I used to fence biweekly and that requires a lot of fine finger control and strength in them, especially the index finger. A 500G foil that's about a metre long requires more finger strength to accurately control than pressing a 2cm button on a cube controller). The problem is that repetitive motions of the type used for trigger buttons will cause me to cramp excessively quickly. Non-repetitive motions are fine (See normal use of a gamepad for just about every other game), but my muscles have a huge tendency to cramp when faced with repetitive motions.

As such, wavedashing in Melee, or snaking in Mario Kart/F-Zero GX are basically unperformable for me without enduring constant cramping.

Fret not, I'm petty sure you can use the Z button and if not you can always customize your controls however you like.

 

[Magus420]

But in Brawl what we need is something that's difficult to do to seperate the players. What's the fun in practicing if you can't get better than people? If a newbie can be on the same level as someone that's been playing for years, then there's no reason to practice as it's pretty much impossible to get good since good doesn't exist.

This is why l-canceling needs to be there over s-canceling.

L-canceling is not at all difficult for good players though. A newbie practicing l-canceling will get better than other newbies that don't. A good player practicing l-canceling... doesn't improve at all because it's already expected and becomes 2nd nature so they almost never miss it. Who cares if it further separates newbies from good players? There are far more things that separate them than being able to time a button press everytime you land with an aerial. What should matter is how it separates good players from other good players, and it doesn't really do much at all in that regard.


What I don't like about l-canceling is that there is never any reason NOT to do it. There is no strategy at all in it, and all it is is an extra button that you need to press every single time. It's also not hard for good players to do and they almost never mess it up. It's just... there, and you need to do it everytime regardless of the situation.

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?


If you wanted it in there, but in such a way that it also separated the good players from even better players one option would be to make the timing more difficult...

...or better yet perhaps you could instead put some actual strategical value into its use, so it's more than just a button timing you need to do everytime without thinking. Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect, so that it would require some thought of when and when not to use it.

Perhaps have it be similar to the shield canceling code, except when you cancel your landing lag with it it goes into your powershield animation (probably more fitting of an instant cancel effect too) so you could also cancel it into an A or B attack. As a drawback maybe you take a few points of damage from the cancel or perhaps something else, that way you wouldn't want to do it unless the situation called for it and you think it'd be worth it. Also, maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.

 

[Xenesis]

Fret not, I'm petty sure you can use the Z button and if not you can always customize your controls however you like.

Z button doesn't really help - it's like the DS shoulder buttons and I still cramp with those. If it didn't involve rapid, repetitive button presses I'd never have a problem with it (Wavedashing that is).

 

[Grunt]

maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.

oh god...
I use R+A+B to cancel in GG.
XD

 

[zxeon]

Z button doesn't really help - it's like the DS shoulder buttons and I still cramp with those. If it didn't involve rapid, repetitive button presses I'd never have a problem with it (Wavedashing that is).

You could trade your hands in for smaller more efficient hands.

 

[Wind Owl]

Whoa, Magus hates L-canceling...

I guess it would be pretty easy to just auto-halve all aerials, but I don't think (even if we could) we should implement a punishment system for canceling.

Also lol @ the mutiple button press thing..... Maybe we SHOULD turn Brawl into Guilty Gear

EDIT: I updated the OP... Could use some trimming, but it'll work for now lol

 

[B.W.]

L-canceling is not at all difficult for good players though. A newbie practicing l-canceling will get better than other newbies that don't. A good player practicing l-canceling... doesn't improve at all because it's already expected and becomes 2nd nature so they almost never miss it. Who cares if it further separates newbies from good players? There are far more things that separate them than being able to time a button press everytime you land with an aerial. What should matter is how it separates good players from other good players, and it doesn't really do much at all in that regard.


What I don't like about l-canceling is that there is never any reason NOT to do it. There is no strategy at all in it, and all it is is an extra button that you need to press every single time. It's also not hard for good players to do and they almost never mess it up. It's just... there, and you need to do it everytime regardless of the situation.

If all it does is serve as a mindless button press that separates good players/newbies that can l-cancel from newbies that can't l-cancel... why even have it? Why not just have aerials have half the lag by default?


If you wanted it in there, but in such a way that it also separated the good players from even better players one option would be to make the timing more difficult...

...or better yet perhaps you could instead put some actual strategical value into its use, so it's more than just a button timing you need to do everytime without thinking. Maybe give aerials half lag by default, and also have the option of canceling ALL lag but with some kind of negative aspect, so that it would require some thought of when and when not to use it.

Perhaps have it be similar to the shield canceling code, except when you cancel your landing lag with it it goes into your powershield animation (probably more fitting of an instant cancel effect too) so you could also cancel it into an A or B attack. As a drawback maybe you take a few points of damage from the cancel or perhaps something else, that way you wouldn't want to do it unless the situation called for it and you think it'd be worth it. Also, maybe have it be input with Z or L/R+A instead of just L/R or another combination so it'd be less likely to happen by accident when you wanted to just shield after landing normally.

A fighting is not all about strategy at all though. It's not an RPG. Most fighting games are about your finger speed, as well as your timing. L-canceling goes with the timing factor. Canceling the lag is needed to continue things such as combos, as well as make sure you don't get punished if you miss.

Think of the L-cancel as Guilty Gear's Roman Cancel and Forced Roman Cancel. It takes time learning the timing of when to press the button. Though in Guilty Gear, RCs and FRCs aren't always the best idea because they take some tension, but you still need to learn them. Once you get the timing down, yes it's not exactly the hardest thing to do, but it's still possible to mess up, and if you mess up you pay for it.

Fighting games require you to be skilled with your fingers in many different ways. This is true for the Smash Bros. series too.

EDIT: lol at GG being mentioned before I had a chance to send this post.

 

[Magus420]

Think of the L-cancel as Guilty Gear's Roman Cancel and Forced Roman Cancel. It takes time learning the timing of when to press the button. Though in Guilty Gear, RCs and FRCs aren't always the best idea because they take some tension, but you still need to learn them. Once you get the timing down, yes it's not exactly the hardest thing to do, but it's still possible to mess up, and if you mess up you pay for it.

This is entirely my point though. There is NEVER any reason not to l-cancel. There is no trade off like with an RC or FRC. Why have a mindless button press that you do everytime in every situation (and is also rare to mess up in its current form), when you could have a button press that also offers some strategy and additional options in its usage?

 

[Wind Owl]

It doesn't help, either, that this isn't Melee where you have to cancel EVERY attack. In Brawl, most aerials are auto-canceled anyway or have very little lag so it's not even like it affects all characters equally. Characters like MK and Olimar can get by without bothering to L-cancel.

 

[B.W.]

This is entirely my point though. There is NEVER any reason not to l-cancel. There is no trade off like with an RC or FRC. Why have a mindless button press that you do everytime in every situation (and is also rare to mess up in its current form), when you could have a button press that also offers some strategy and additional options in its usage?

Ah. Well I can't argue against that, because there is never a reason to not do it.

But having everything auto halve would take away from skilled button presses as well as that chance that some one would mess up. There's no real penalty that could be added to L-canceling either. Or at least not any that people would be fond of.

Thinking of it like this, I suppose it's true that it really isn't needed to be in the game. All I know is that there are plenty of people out there that do have trouble with it at times. But in the end, once you get it, you get it.

The only real argument I have for adding it is that you can mess up, and be punished and that it takes away from the button timing aspect of the game..

 

[Swordplay]

There is a certain code I am interested in.....

In melee, Characters like Link and Samus had the ability to zair the sides at the bottom of stages...say (FD)

Is there a code that exists yet that would change the way tethering works to allow this to happen?

 

[Wind Owl]

It would be REALLY hard to make that happen, and you would need a lot of lines of code. Frankly I doubt it will ever be made.

 

[kupo15]

L-canceling is not at all difficult for good players though........and the rest of your quote.

Esp in brawl with when the game pauses, you need to be keen to do time it right or else you will miss. The timing is a little different and the pause factor makes l canceling a little harder. So I wouldnt say its mindless button pressing. Quite on the contrary, S canceling allows for mindless spamming of aerials without skill. If you wanted to do that with l canceling you would need to l cancel every move and SFFLing takes skill and separates the good from the bad.

Even good players miss sometimes and when they do that, its a mistake that needs to be punished. There is no punishment with S canceling.

Also I disagree with the name of Brawl+ if wavedashing is in there. I dont believe wavedashing/melee air dodging should be there because this is brawl. The only things that should be changed to make this called Brawl+ are:
Hitstun
L canceling
No tripping
no auto sweetspot (possible)

The reason is because those are the core game mechanics of smash. Brawl is a different version of the Super smash bros series which means we should only allow hacks that are universal throughout the smash series and not replace brawl with melee specific things. Melee air dodge system does not fit brawls play style IMO.

Before you go hating, I loved WDing in melee and the air dodge system, but it doesnt belong in brawl.

 

[Wind Owl]

Well, almost everyone else in this thread <3s WDing, so you're on your own there, Kupo

EDIT: The thing is, WDing adds some much needed mobility to not only the slow characters but to the game in general. Even the blazing-fast Sonic is now more mobile thanks to platform dashing and the ability to stop on a dime. Poor Captain Falcon is way too slow without WDing, and don't even get me started on Ganon (who runs like he has some sort of rectal problem) and Ike (forward B is NOT how any character should have to move around). And that's just the speed increase, without mentioning the endless mindgame potential granted by wavedashing that we're all already familiar with from Melee.

I would like to say that I see your point, but I really don't. What possible downside is there to having WDing? I know you're a nunchuck player and all but... If that's the reason you're representing a vast, vast minority there.

EDIT2: On top of the benefits of just Wavedashing, one of the HUGE reasons that Brawl sucks compared to Melee is its infinite airdodge BS. You can be as sloppy as you want when recovering (from up high) and odds are you won't get punished. Finite airdodges also allow pseudocombos, since people can't just AD out of all your crap without being punished. Combos = punishment = depth.

As far as not being Smash-like, that's sort of a moot point. 64 didn't have any form of airdodging, Melee had finite directional dodging, and Brawl had infinite momentum-based dodging. We're just implementing the form that we feel is best out of all three of those.

 

[B.W.]

I would disagree about the Melee air dodging not fitting into Brawl. With directional air dodging, you can change where your landing is when you're using it for an actual air dodge.

If the air dodge were to just be falling, it would take away from the game since it would be predictable where you land, where as with directional air dodging, if someone tries to hit you, you can go behind them to escape them, as apposed to falling into a spot, air dodging, and staying in the spot you were going to land originally.

Directional air dodging makes for a much better escape plan so you can get back into the game yourself.

 

[kupo15]

I may be alone but thats ok as long as my views are respected (so far they are and thats cool ) And I will of course respect yours.

The reason I think differently is probably because I have had 7 months of convincing myself to deal with the new air dodge and having to rethink about that is wierd now that I am used to the new air dodge. If brawl came on day one with melee's air dodge system, make no mistake I would love it all over again.

So in response to your comment about the air dodge predictability, I understand where you are coming from. How about a compromise. Due to the floaty nature of the game, I dont feel its the best interest of the game to be allowed to air dodge once and then go immediately into a falling state.
I think it would be better if you are allowed to only do one Air dodge and still do stuff afterwards.

But your only allowed one. But even though I understand where your coming from, this game is slower paced and the defense is better which is why the air dodge system works. I havent had a problem with being predictable about where I land. IMO it doesnt affect the game as much as melee since it was harder to recover if knocked off.

 

[Wind Owl]

In the opinion of many (including me), Brawl's entire PROBLEM is its defense. Being disabled for airdodging, again, allows your opponent to punish you, which is good.

 

[izzy24]

is it tru some charcaters get infinites b/c of this.., and i really would hate to get fair into uptilt by snake (we could call the sure death combo)

 

[kupo15]

Oh I completely agree. Brawl's default is too defensive oriented and that is the major problem. I think that since the game is floatier and slower than melee, it would be too easy to punish the falling state after the Air dodge. I think what made melee's air dodge system work for melee was how incredibly fast pace the game was which made it harder to punish in the falling state amongst great players.

That is why I propose that if brawls current air dodge system is too defensive for you that you change it so you can only AD once but you are not put in the falling state. This forces you to save your AD for the right moment while allowing you some protection against falling very slowly to the ground.

I think its good you have someone like me who is going against the norm. It will help us look at all sides to make a good decision.

 

[B.W.]

Well that's what I was talking about. Even with a single air dodge, your landing point is incredibly predictable, there's no faking your opponent. If they miss once because you air dodged, then all they have to do is wait for the air dodge animation to end, then you'll be standing right in front of them.

You can't say that all you have to do is shield the attack coming up (not to say you were going to), because the solution to that is to grab, and a grab would work whether the person was shielding or not.

With directional air dodging you could dodge left, right, up, down, diagonal, or even in place and because of this your opponent has to keep his eye ready, as well as use the right attack, as opposed to just waiting for you to be done dodging and stand in place.

 

[kupo15]

No I understand, I ment the system should be,
directional air dodge once that doesnt put you in the falling state so you can defend yourself

Another small problem with melee air dodge in brawl is this. What if you face a GaW and you are forced into the falling state with an air dodge. He can keep you in the air forever forcing you off the stage where he will edgehog you. This also affects my proposed air dodge system but at least you can still us your up b and other moves do defend yourself.

I believe that Brawl should fit in the middle of 64 and melee. You want hardcore fighting with speed and stuff, melee is that game. You want fast paced brokenness, 64 is that game. If you want something in the middle, brawl is that game.

Brawl IMO should be a mix of both 64 and melee. It should have its own style tha stays true to the core game mechanics of the franchise.

Again, if brawl were released as melee 2.0, I would love it all over again.

 

[oliwonder]

how about both air dodging systems at once? if you don't press a direction when air dodging, you get the brawl air dodge- can be used multiple times with the ability to do anything afterwards. And if you do use a direction while air dodging, you get the melee air dodge, and can only be used once. Can this work?

 

[OK'Ssuka?]

That could get very, very technical...not sure if the codes are designed for that method of use...

 

[kupo15]

I honestly dont know...hmm. this is my cue to go to bed and see what everyone thinks. Cya tomorrow

 

[Wind Owl]

I'm against anything suggested other than the Melee airdodge system.

 

[Scrubs]

Is removing the instant ledge grab a high priority?

 

[B.W.]

I missed one of your previous posts, I apologize.

I see what you mean by making it so you can air dodge once and attack after you air dodge before hitting the ground. Problem with that is, that would add to being "too defensive." Certain characters would not be able to be punished because they are able to attack after their dodge.

The speed of the game doesn't really mean that certain things wouldn't work. SSB64 was quite slow and it was way more offense than defense (though that was part of the problems with it). So just because it's a slow floaty game doesn't mean it plays better defensively.

Melee had a good balance of offense and defense, which is what we want to get back. Directional air dodging was the part that helped the defense game. If you could attack after air dodging then escaping from people would become way to easy to do and take little to no skill at all, where with directional air dodging you'd have to fake your opponent to get back on the ground, or use your air dodge with your DI.

You should have to make a choice between attacking in the air, or dodging to create some space. Being able to attack after you air dodge eliminates this choice, and the game becomes hit tag again.

 

[Wind Owl]

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[B.W.]

No matter what's chosen to add, get rid of, tone down, beef up really isn't going to matter right away at this point... We still lack a hacker.