Brawl+ G&W: Guide version 1.0 up!

[Arkaether]

You could talk about matchups. Against Jiggs.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, hopefully Veril can help me with this.

Vs. Jiggs

In vBrawl, the matchup was 80:20 is GW's favor, as Jiggs had no real way of getting inside G&W. his problem largely exists now, as Jiggs still doesn't have a reliable way of getting inside G&W other than baiting aerials. However, due to hitstun, Jiggs can combo G&W better than G&W can combo her, and her cambos can lead into rests. While rests are devastating, G&W can easily punish the Jiggs user for a rest even on hit. Recently, on wifi, I went up against a Jiggs and got rested, then immediately came back and killed her with a sweetspot dsmash.

Approaching with Bair is a good idea against Jiggs. However, be careful with spacing, as her mobility in the air allows her to easily bait a bair, and thusly punish it. Overall, though, playing smart will get you through this matchup with ease.

A non-teched dthrow equates to a free dsmash. A teched dthrow can be techchased into a DC dsmash.

Overall, GW still has the upper hand in this matchup, its just that Jiggs gets more reward for being able to get inside G&W. I'd say its 7:3, or 65:35.

 

[Arkaether]

I think vBrawl matchup was actually 85:15.

As for the actual matchup, G&W is a ginormous wall of priority that you just can't get past. It's horrible, I swear to god. It's like turtle turtle turtle turtle DEATH. I'm pretty sure it's one of her worst matchups. I'd put it at 70:30, but I've never really fought a good G&W.

 

[Metatitan]

okay so i really dont know the matchup that well for brawl+ but let me list some stuff on why jiggs in vbrawl got assraped by gw:

gw could kill her super early
she could not kill gw super early
gw outprioritized all her attacks
gw could be outspaced by her but his moves had longer range


essentially, with the hitstun, killing gw is no longer a problem and priority doesnt mean as much with comboes. to me, gw to jiggs is like melee fox to jiggs. they both kill eachother super early now and combo the **** out of eachother. if a jiggs is properly spacing i don't see how gw should absolutely massacre her now. 60:40 gw

 

[Veril]

Why would you fight G&W as jiggs anyway? ;D

Double blind picks against someone I don't know...

I would strongly recommend any Jiggs main have a second for dealing with GW. Rest is next to useless here since basically GW can just come back and kill you at almost any %. Its also pretty difficult to combo into. We both can KO extremely early, Jiggs just needs to work 10x harder to get an opening.

Of course, Jiggs weak to strong f-air is **** here, so we have a reliable KO setup for when we do get through the wall of priority. Also the removal of stale moves lets us use f-air waaaay more, which is a really good thing.

Jiggs D-throw combos do not work on GW.

I've got more to say, but that's all for now...

 

[Hylian]

I think I would be fine with GW not having kill set-ups if you made is Fair have less lag. That would mean he would have a reliable kill move and could be agressive when trying to kill, rather then having to bait a whiff to kill while almost every other character has combos into finishers.

Watch me vs Chu. I can't even combo fair into fair off the edge to kill :/, yet he hits me pretty much once my last stock and takes me from 0-death. All my kills were from reads, he just comboed into his. Once you get GW off the stage he's done. All you have to do is charge a smash attack at the edge. Since you littereally CANNOT sweetspot, you are not getting back safetly lol.

Back to my first point though, if you change the landing lag on fair to the same as nair then GW would be able to get kills without risking his stock or having to just camp until his opponent makes a mistake. GW is hardpressed to live past 100%, and it's REALLY annoying that we STILL don't have a reliable way to kill people.


I also don't think many people know how to play GW correctly. This is true in Vbrawl as well as brawl+. As I went through the losers bracket in Apex I just sat and thought about how to approach the game and started 2 or 3 stocking everyone I played lol. People don't play this game fast enough, and they don't utilize mix-ups at all which are increadibly useful now.

I'm going to a tournament this weekend that will have brawl+. I'll try to have videos.

 

[CountKaiser]

When getting back onstage, it's always best to recover high with G&W.

As for no kill setups, other than Kirby and Fox, who can reliably combo into a killer? Fair seems fine to me, though I must ask, would you trade the dthrow speed up for a fair buff?

And just how should one use G&W anyway? I'll need this for the guide.

 

[Blank Mauser]

There are honestly a lot of characters that can't reliably combo into kill moves, and none of them have nearly the same priority or recovery G&W does.

Not that I have a problem with making G&W a little more interesting, but I could argue then that others would need something too.

As for characters that can reliably combo into a kill move, Kaiser I think you forgot Falcon lol.

 

[Hylian]

I'm all for buffing other characters as well. When balancing a fighting game it's generally better to buff everyone rather then nerfing some characters. More characters with more viable moves mean more depth to the gameplay.


And other characters can combo people offstage and edgeguard at the very least. All of GW's combos go up -.- lol.

 

[cAm8ooo]

As for no kill setups, other than Kirby and Fox, who can reliably combo into a killer?

What move other then D-air does kirby have that sets up kill moves?

 

[CountKaiser]

Yeah, the fact that most of G&W's aerials send the person up is annoying.

And I believe the BR is being conservative with buffs now, not wanting to buff characters who feel solid.

@cam: None, unless you count his final cutter into bair a kill setup. Then again, Fox has dair and dthrow, which can set up for usmash.

Now that I think about it, along with Falcon (lol) Jiggs, Luigi, Ness, and DK have some sort of kill setup. Jiggs has rest combos, Luigi has dthrow -> nair or Up-B, Ness has dthrow to uair, and DK has Cargo uthrow to uair.

 

[Plum]

Yeah, the fact that most of G&W's aerials send the person up is annoying.

And I believe the BR is being conservative with buffs now, not wanting to buff characters who feel solid.

@cam: None, unless you count his final cutter into bair a kill setup. Then again, Fox has dair and dthrow, which can set up for usmash.

Now that I think about it, along with Falcon (lol) Jiggs, Luigi, Ness, and DK have some sort of kill setup. Jiggs has rest combos, Luigi has dthrow -> nair or Up-B, Ness has dthrow to uair, and DK has Cargo uthrow to uair.

I would also add characters who readily combo offstage into an amazing gimp game to that list, seeing as how some characters can only reliably kill with their gimp games. That would add characters like Mario, Squirtle, and MK. Heck, even Link can set up for kills with his new Zair or a lucky Dtilt; neither are the most reliable but they are more than what G&W has to work with.

Going off of what Hylian said about not playing right, I would have to agree. When I watch guys like Necko or Shamus stream and a G&W comes up they do things that should be easily punished. G&W is a wall of priority, but the way I see him being played is as a predictable wall of priority against people who don't know how to get around it. Once that initial shock value goes away, G&W is going to have to lose some of the aggressive play (which sucks because it is so fun ) and really work on mixing up their game.

I learned how to turn the gay on. The people I smash with know how to get around G&W because that's the only character I play in vBrawl since I dropped DDD and they were basically were forced to learn how to get around him. Don't be afraid to camp platforms and wait for your opponent to get impatient. Overly aggressive approaches should be punished, and I guess it is just the opponents fault for not taking advantage.

It's only a matter of time until Bair>Bair>Bair>Bair and Nair>Nair>Nair>Nair becomes old and too predictable to really work at all. I guess it just becomes hard to mix up such a straight forward character, but it becomes so obvious who can play G&W at a top level and who can't. When you see a player like Hylian, UTD Zac, or NoJ play it becomes clear of how well they know their character.

That said, G&W is still a good character. I just hate seeing the same thing over and over again from people who just don't know what the rest of G&W's moveset can do.

As far as Jiggs goes, he is still a solid counter. The priority on the ground and in the air is just too much for Jiggs. G&W does have more to worry about because his recovery lost so much which does open up to Jiggly's gimp game and Rest kills won't be common but can change the match quickly. I'm not going to put it at the lol level of 80-20 in vBrawl, at the moment I'm going to put it towards 70-30. Still going to be a steep uphill battle for Jiggs.

 

[CountKaiser]

What else would a G&W use for mixups? dair->dtilt or jab? DC dtitl? Those are the only thing that readily come to mind.

 

[Metatitan]

id personally like to face a good gw online to get some experience in the matchup. IMO regardless of priority jiggs shouldnt be getting *****; i really dont see anything different from the looks of this matchup compared to melee jiggs to melee fox

 

[Arkaether]

There is quite a difference. Melee Jiggs vs. Melee Fox was relatively even; it was a one touch = dead situation. G&W vs. Jiggs is totally different. For one, Jiggs will touch G&W maybe once every three or four stocks. His wall of priority is just that good. Not to mention even if Jiggs does combo into Rest, G&W can DI off to the side, respawn, and KO Jiggs while she's still asleep.

 

[Plum]

id personally like to face a good gw online to get some experience in the matchup. IMO regardless of priority jiggs shouldnt be getting *****; i really dont see anything different from the looks of this matchup compared to melee jiggs to melee fox

I would say the major difference is how ridiculous G&W's hitboxes are.
High priority, and he has such disjointed hitboxes that Jiggly has a hard time actually finding a way into G&W's hurtbox. When he throws out an attack he basically surrounds himself in a bubble of hitbox
That, and Fox is easy to combo, which though Jiggly has a good combo game, G&W just won't be getting hit by combos from Jiggly like Fox or Squirtle can dish out.

 

[Shaya]

Sorry if this has been brought up extensively or anything,

But after watching Hylian's G&W against Chu in Brawl+ I came to some conclusions.

G&W has really good shield pressure, he can apply moves to just about any area of a shield, using his aerial mobility to weave through and can dair on reaction to cover just about every characters responses.
He in essence has a similar 'fling' to that of Melee Falco, as I already had read, people are making the comparisons.
To fully vitalise G&W's new style, which seems to be passive aggressive shield pressure, he needs a move of sort that he can use to finish off an opponent through his shield pressuring.

If to not buff his kill moves directly, if possible; if G&W could have an aerial changed to have 'shield breaking' properties (not so steep that its instant sb), it would allow him to be a larger threat on people's shields. Which seems to be the focus of his game at the moment in brawl+.

 

[CountKaiser]

The ability of a move being able to break or severely damage shields is directly linked to how much damage a move can do. Currently, shield damage = 0.7 * normal damage.

One of G&W's moves would have to have a bit of a damage buff in order to fit this role, which I believe is out of the question.

 

[Shaya]

So how do moves like Snake's forward smash, Marth's shield breaker and DK's side b work, individually cased situations?

 

[CloneHat]

It's very hard to hit G&W with an aerial, because his moves have so much priority over jiggs'.

 

[Plum]

So how do moves like Snake's forward smash, Marth's shield breaker and DK's side b work, individually cased situations?

For all we know there is a shield eating effect you can add in the hitbox mod, like fire or dark energy. But I have no idea exactly how it works, because there has to be something else besides damage because Jiggly's Pound eats shields too.

 

[CountKaiser]

Since there seems to be a general consensus, I'm gonna say the Jiggs vs. GW matchup is 70:30 in GW's favor. I will close this discussion tommorrow if no one has any objections to this.

 

[Mystic101]

[/edumacation]

I'm lead to believe that G&W is one of the characters that is very powerful at low to mid levels of play, but as your progress, begins to be a lot less glamorous. Though his attacks are powerful and carry a lot of priority, they tend to be predictable and easy to defend against: he lacks significant depth as a character compared to many others who have ATs which they can use in order to mix things up.

I would agree with this I wish G@W had a few more options , one obviuse way to do this is to speed up his chef

 

[Mystic101]

I think that brawl+ G@ W has actually received a serius nerf. While he has gained some combo moves, they are nothing special. other than that most things about g&W are worse. It is harder or impossible to tech chase( -1 reliable kill move), his dsmash/dair have been nerfed, and his off edge capability has been greatly gimped, his bair is alor fater now and does not have that laggign hit that i loved.

G&W weakness which is his weight also works agains him alot more now because MANY of chars that now have better killing moves BKB KBG wise. Many chars have an easier time killing now because of decreased degradation which turns many matchups against him. But that does not help G@W as much because his problem is setting up killing moves, not having them. G@W is also easy to combo, and hase a sloW role, both of which are counterintuitive to a glass cannon char. Combos that do 30-50% are common and that is an easy 1/3-1/2 stock. I hate how being punished a VERY FEW NUMBER OF TIMES can still result into you sitting trying to avoid a combo into kill move.

vBrawl G&W was not that great of a char to begin with, he had a few key matchups to wich he had an advantage/even fight, but also had many less known(and less fought) matchups that where bad for him. Another good point that applies to him in general is that while he seems great at first his game can become quite predictable and easy to counter/not get hitby the slow kill moves.


I will talk mild buffs but really im trying to create more diverse G@W gameplay so he doesent end up left in the dust due mostly to general gameplay changes that disadvantage him.


* hammer rebalence*
-Hammer startup frame speedup** and a windown frame slowdown

- I think that a #1 should not hurt or do any damage(1%toG&W if he hit) or knowckback but should INSTANTLY BREAK SHEILDS.

- The apple hit #(i forget) should do 12dmg and heal 12 health and the apple should decay in like 2 seconds so it is like a double edged sword your opponent may get ther % back or you will double down or break even or someone will get punished for trying to grab the treat.

*OTHER*
-remove the downsmash nerf, it was not needed.

-chef speedup X 1.35 so it will be a usefull and reliable stratagy. <--- most agreed/needed move change that would be more like fixing a move instead of buffing him

- *buff alert*make his ftilt knock a guy in the air behind G&W as a combo setup(0-10KBG and apoporpriate BKB) becuase it would look cool and have more useablility as a combo move.

Tell me what you guys think about my assesment of bawl+ G&W

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm, true that G&W isn't as great as he was, but I think you overexxagerate a bit.

First off, in vBrawl, G&W had 4 bad matchups, MK, diddy, Marth, and Snake. 2 of them were counters, Marth and Snake. He was hardly considered mediocre in vBrawl.

Also, you can still kill just fine with G&W, you just need to punish more. Dthrow was sped up, and now instead of usmash, you must punish with a dash canceled dsmash or fsmash.

Being light, easy to combo, and easy to kill are called character weaknesses, get used to them.

Dsmash nerf isn't really that debilitating, it just makes the dsmash not so spammable. Have you tried it?

A hammer buff would be useless. A chef buff, while nice, is unneeded.

I believe your assessment comes from not knowing how to adapt the character in brawl+. G&W requires more precise play now. DI is now very important to G&W, he must use DD and DC to punish with kill moves, and he must be as unpredictable as possible. Dtilt is now a great ground-based approach, try it some time. Also, dtilt is great for edgeguarding, due to NAS.

 

[Palpi]

Seriously. mystic. G&W ***** half the cast (in vbrawl) and had like 7 even, slight disadvantage or bad match ups. (combined).

They don't put mediocre characters at top tier.

 

[Plum]

Yeah, last I checked, a character who at least soft counters a large majority of the cast isn't bad. His worst matchup is a 35-65 (Marth and Snake) and that is certainly winnable if you can adjust correctly. Not bad by any means.

In Brawl+ most of what us G&W mains complained about in the very beginning is just a matter of not knowing how to adjust to Brawl+. (Though I still think a Chef speedup would be BEAUTIFUL)

You need perfect DI and spacing if you want to avoid being combo'd, and with that you should be able to live around 120% (assuming you don't get hit by powerful finishers like Rest, or *insert character here*'s sweetspotted *insert aerial here*)

And when you look at it, most of the cast aren't able to combo into a reliable finisher at kill percents. It isn't like G&W is alone in that department.

Learn to punish well and killing should be no problem. Things like a stutter stepped Fsmash to mess with the opponent's spacing can get early kills, tech chasing a Dthrow is still possible (and stupidly easy on platforms ) and in some cases his smashes will just plain outprioritize the opponent.

 

[Mystic101]

ya im still great with him but i feel hes gottten worse i just hate being able to be gimped to death by some chars like if i had to fight my link and his weakness are easy enough to work around with diligent spacing.

I just think his play style is a little to 2D lol i exaterated a bit to proove my point that the game engine change does work against him so he doesent need nerfs and ya dsmash is still good. I love the ftilt but its not usefull. Mostly i would just like a fixed chef and a hammer that starts faster with more lagtime to promote more adaptable strats, allot of G&W's play the same.

some other things i dislike is i think snakes nerf on his upb was not needed because that move was very punishable already. Lucas had a much smoother N-attack b4 and now its so much faster and does not transition as well. Wolf was great b4 exept for 1 reason and i dont see why he needs attack bootsts instead of other tweaks.

 

[Palpi]

vbrawl G&W is pretty much the same. Most characters play the same. Key platforms, throw out random tilts and aerials best suited for the situation, tech chase dacus for kill, or hit with a strong fair for kill. There isn't much diversity in G&W no matter what. A hammer buff is ********. It is and always should be a move you shouldn't use.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, just closed the discussion on Jiggs, with a 70:30 in G&W's favor, and I posted a guide to G&W. Input on the guide is greatly appreciated.

What should we discuss next? More matchups, or possible combos with G&W?

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, this thread died.

Come on, does no one like G&W now? D:

 

[slikvik]

I really like cancelling my dash into dtilt as an approach. Its a good alternative to just baiting bairs all game

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I love G&W but he's really just not as good as he used to be. His aerial mobility is really nothing to brag about at all, so he can't even reliably get these "insane hax" priority bairs and nairs in all the time. Bair's hits don't even connect that well for some odd reason, even though the hitlag was reduced.

His smash attacks are ridiculous killers but the huge flaw is that you can see them from a mile away. It's pretty hard to hit with. I'd say the most reliable one is Fsmash but even a decent player will start to realize how to punish G&W for his laggy attacks. Dthrow isn't fun anymore, Uthrow serves no purpose and don't even talk about F+Bthrow.

I thought of something to give G&W. If there's someway to increase the amount of frames that the projectiles from Chef are out, G&W can create intricate and strategic ways to create a wall for himself. Most people think G&W is THAT good that he doesn't need any buffs but if you really take the time to analyze him, he has nothing new and exciting going for him. He has no depth.

The fact of the matter is, G&W's basic defense is his high priority. Once you overcome the hitboxes and predict his very predictable attacks, he's pretty much meat. Dark, clanky, video game pixel meat.

 

[Wolf of Ice]

Plum, The Falco shine came at the cost of reduced damage on the lasers. :V

I'm all for giving GaW mains what they want, but unfortunately, it will probably be at a trade off.

Get with your mains man. You got a character discussion thread. :V

Just be careful what you offer up IF you offer up.

Just curious, what would you guys be willing to give up to improve your character's depth?

 

[slikvik]

G&W really doesn't need anything. He's a simple character, but its your job is to out think your opponent

 

[CountKaiser]

So G&W is fine being the 2D character he is?

Plum, your rebuttal?

 

[Plum]

Is G&W a viable character? Yes. Nobody can deny that. It would be stupid to.

Let's create a situation, shall we?

Character 1 has option A in his repertoire. Option A is considered to be really good in the current metagame.
Character 2 has options B, C, and D. None of these options are felt to be better than option A.
Character 1 is able to dominate Character 2 because of option A. Option A seems to beet out B, C, and D.
Character 2 keeps loosing until he realizes option C does in fact beat out option A if timed correctly.
Character 1 having no other available options tries to use option A again.
Character 2 still beats it out with option C.
Character 1 can only try option A again knowing perfectly well option A will not work anymore.
Character 2 beats Character 1.

In comes character 3. Character 3 has options E and F.
Character 1 is still able to dominate Character 3 with option A.
Character 3, realizing that his option F is similar to Character 2's option C begins to use that against option A.
Character 1 is once again stuck with no more options, and tries option A again only to have it fail, again.

See what both Character 2 and Character 3 did? They figured out how to beat the one, though powerful, option Character 1 has.

This is the kind of situation G&W is in with vBrawl. And I'm fairly certain he is going to end up the exact same way in B+. Why? Because he hasn't changed at all. You can still punish him for the exact same things in B+ as you could in vBrawl, the difference is that he happens to be getting away with it in B+ for now. It's all the shock value of his high priority, disjointed hitboxes, and short though high damage output combos.

He can form a wall of priority and range, and that's about it. As it stands G&W is basically a one trick pony. A wall of range and priority you say? That sounds amazing, how could G&W need anything else? Well let me tell you something about fighting games then! In fighting games, tactics known as walls rely completely on the opponents ability to not get past said wall. It requires repeating the same tactic(s) over and over again in hopes that your opponent never finds a way around it. So G&W is only going to succeed for as long as you let him.

Ever play a Marth who spaces double Fairs all day? Seems pretty hard to get past doesn't it? Did you ever find a way through the wall of Fairs? The match got really easy from there didn't it? That Marth player was using a wall tactic. Chances are that said Marth player didn't know how to use Marth's other options effectively after that wall was broken, and without the wall things spiraled downhill for him.

Now lets turn the situation over to G&W. Let's say I'm playing you and spacing Bairs, DC Dtilt and Nairs the entire match. What happens to me when you figure out how to SH an aerial over my Dtilt, outspace my Nair and SDI my Bair and punish? I'm done for. I can try Fair but that's far too lagy and even easier to punish. I can try Dair, but that can be seen from a mile away and is even easier to punish. I can try Ftilt but Dtilt outshines Ftilt in every way; if you can get past Dtilt you can get past Ftilt. Utilt? Too slow and not nearly enough range (sorry G&W, looks like you aren't quite number 1 after all). Maybe I can use Chef. Random trajectories, way too much endlag and a faster paced game overall is going to make that a no. Uair? Well assuming you aren't above me that is going to be useless. How about his grab game? Good luck getting a grab in the first place, and then once you land a grab the only use for followups is Dthrow and that's all luck. Smash attacks? Pretty sure that things seen from a mile away are not quite up to par. I got it, I will use Judgement and hope for a 9! Has this really boiled down to hoping for a 9?

See what I'm getting at here? G&W has no other options once you get past his wall.
So here is my proposal. Make that wall less effective overall, while giving him an option B or C at the same time.

Let's go back to the first situation.

Character 1 now has options A, B and C. Character 2 still has his options, now called D, E and F.
Option A is no longer as powerful as before, and option E can still beat it out, perhaps have an easier time doing so. Though now Character 1 has option B to combat option E. Does Character 1 win now? Nope, because option F counters B. Turns out Option B can be beaten by option D. At the same time option A can now be used to beat option D. Options C and F can be thrown in for surprise tactics on each character, and do you know what we have now? A more interesting game, with the key word: Depth. Character 2 still has everything he needs to beat Character 1, though Character 1 isn't left with nothing to fall back on.

Why should we care about depth? It's something called fun.
This is a competitive game, but why shouldn't a video game be as fun as possible while remaining as competitive as possible? Depth will even make things more competitive so it is a win win situation here. What do you like to watch/play/play against better, vBrawl Ice Climbers just CG'ing all day or B+ Ice Climbers with their diverse desynch game? Notice how the depth makes things more fun? (sorry to infinite fans out there) Would you rather watch G&W throw out the same moves over and over again or see those moves nerfed in order to give his useless moves some action?

Is adding depth going to make G&W instantly better? Short answer, no. Long answer, no because characters will still have everything they need to get past G&W; the difference being is that the matchup becomes more exciting as you have to think on your feet to best G&W's new options. At the same time G&W isn't stuck with the same drawn out, overused tactic that we all know.

His moveset switches from having disproportionate usage to create an overall effective character; not better then the current character, just with more depth and room for different playstyles.
Remember when the WBR tried to give Sonic depth and all the vBrawl Sonic players came here and whined about how depth for Sonic would be bad because they wanted him to play only one way? They did it until the changes (Usmash spiking and setting up for what was a great tech chase game) were taken out. Is it wrong to allow a character to have multiple playstyles? Diversity is a great thing, so let's put some serious thinking into giving G&W some.

He has a few good moves that can spare some nerfs, whether through startup or endlag, damage or KB values while still holding their original use. Let's propose some tradeoffs and give his moveset some more overall use. I know we can think up some great things that still leave G&W a balanced character and no better then he is already, and I think it is worth the shot to propose it to the WBR. We just have to be organized, collective in our thoughts, and make **** sure that we are thinking every little bit of this out along the way.

 

[CountKaiser]

Quite the rebuttal from Plum.

I actually wouldn't mind giving G&W some depth. And I'd be willing to help, if anything.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Plum states it well. G&W is rock, and it worked very well until the opponent with rock, paper, scissors options discovered that paper could cover rock. Sure it might sound silly that rock, a clearly effective strategy with a disjointed hitbox, could be overcome so easily, but it's the case for far too many characters. /analogy


Well CountKaiser, as I promised a looong time ago I'm finally going to get active with this topic (I was busy with college for a while, and then I probably have some other excuses up until now).

I've been a G&W main even when he was the universally sucky character in Melee. Loved him then, love his unique disjointed, long hitbox, playstyle for some reason. Maybe I just like that he's two dimensional.

In any case, I'm not happy relying on a single move or two for an entire match against every character. It gets boring, and once the opponent wisens up it's ineffective, at least when used aggressively.

I'm glad to see the G&W mains, as well as other members of the Brawl+ community back up the idea of adding depth to G&W.


As I originally proposed on the nightly builds topic, and on the G&W specific topic that's still on the general Smash Workshop forum (shouldn't a player specific topic be moved to this board?), I'd like to see his chef made into a move that's actually worth using. How to do this? I think a slight reduction in its wind down would be enough. Aggressive characters can still punish its slow startup, which is fine, G&W has good defensive options to punish aggressive behavior. It'd allow him to do mid range pressure on opponents to force them to approach. It could also be used to interrupt certain approaches. If he hits an opponent close to him he may be able to actually combo into a neutral air or Fair. This could also be used to aid his recovery, make him less predictable, etc.

Really, this adjustment compensates for the moves reduced effectiveness from VBrawl due to increased movement speed on the ground and air by other players, as well as dash canceled smashes to massive punishment. Almost all other projectiles have low winddown or can have lag canceled. G&W is some wild exception, and his move has a slow startup to boot.


You guys might argue for slightly increased startup. I'm not convinced this is necessary, but I'm not ruling it out at the moment. The ability to pressure G&W before he's able to start the move can be important to keep certain matchups balanced between G&W and others.


Apparently, to give a move use, to adjust it for the faster playstyle of Brawl+ it was never intended for, it must be balanced with a sacrifice from another move. So which move shall we throw in the volcano?

Currently, we have 3 options, one of them might not be a good enough option, I'm not sure.
1. Nerf the turtle: As much as we love the turtle, we know it's not as effective as many others think. Altering the final hitbox of the move, which currently hits an opponent favorably for G&W, to be nerfed would be a very appropriate nerf. Other members don't seem to realize that SDI can avoid this hitbox. They claim G&W's one big option is too effective. Nerfing this would make it less effective for those who can't properly SDI, and would make G&W less overpowered against several other characters of the cast (who currently aren't high tier). It seems like a fair and appropriate nerf.

2. Nerf the manhole: A knockback reduction might be good enough, but people seem to think it comes out too quickly. I'd respond that it's a down tilt, and they all come out quickly, but perhaps adding a few frames to its startup would make a G&W think less about using it. I don't like this nerf as it reduces G&W's options and makes an already punishable move all the easier to read.

3. Nerf the Oil Panic: This move has sick knockback, and all too often gets one hit KO's. It shuts out certain spamming strategies. Nerfing this move does not alter his matchups with the high tier characters, for whom the move is not used against (save the spacies). It wouldn't need to be made a useless move by any means, keep a decently high knockback, but the low percent kills are uncalled for. This would make the matchups G&W has with the non high tier characters more even (keep in mind that one complaint about G&W is how much he dominates a certain segment of the cast). The WBR seem to imply they'd want his most powerful options nerfed, (meaning meaning we down nerf 1 or 2), but they might find this one appropriate as it balances out his matchups with the segment of the cast they think he's too strong against.


Ok guys, what do you think? Which beautiful maiden is taking the plunge?

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm.

Along with chef, might I throw in a ftilt that doesn't take a day to come out? A less ridiculous version of melee dtilt may also be good to try out.

And as for nerfs, I'd like to throw in a damage reduction on nair. It currently does 17% damage, which would be silly if it weren't for the fact that it only combos into itself and uair.

And people who moan about Manhole need to learn how to sh aerials.