Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
They can't SH aerial because they're too busy looking at G&W's manhole.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Brawl+ G&W: Guide version 1.0 up!
- Thread starter CountKaiser
- Start date
slikvik
Smash Master
Ftilt is ten frames, not slow at all. Whats wrong with the current dtilt? I actually prefer it due to its excellent edguarding uses. You also suggested a nerf, but then explained why the move doesn't need a nerf
edit: I'm wondering if those of you suggesting changes to G&W have actually tried him out in a tournament setting. At apex there was a brawl+ tournament with over 40 people. Hylian and myself are considered top G&W players in vbrawl. I had some brawl+ tourney experience whereas Hylian had none. Hylian gets 4th, while 2-3 stocking a majority of his opponents and I get 5th, losing to hylian. I believe that G&W already has the tools to compete at high level play. His game simply requires you to have excellent spacing. Also, the match-ups that plagued him in vbrawl are no longer as difficult due to G&Ws exceptional edgeguarding game
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
I don't think a faster ftilt would expand his game much. A knockback increase to make it more of a kill option (as it was in Melee) might give the move use, asking for a second buff like this is probably too much, even if it wouldn't help him much, just give him another option to make him less predictable.
A toned down Melee style down tilt could work quite well, finally G&W could set up into combos or maybe kill moves, I'd be game for it, but this would significantly change his game. You other mains need to say whether you's support this or not. Even then, there's no guarantee the WBR will even consider it.
The chef buff would not really be that much of a buff, it'd just allow G&W to mix up his game, pressure opponents, and actually have a move to bait them with.
Personally, I'd be game for option 1 that I mentioned, as it addresses some of the problems others claim G&W has overpowering other characters.
A neutral air damage nerf I'd be hesitant on. I don't see the move as being useful enough to warrant this, it's lack of comboing for example (as you mentioned). 17 damage is also the max damage it gets out.
A toned down Melee style down tilt could work quite well, finally G&W could set up into combos or maybe kill moves, I'd be game for it, but this would significantly change his game. You other mains need to say whether you's support this or not. Even then, there's no guarantee the WBR will even consider it.
The chef buff would not really be that much of a buff, it'd just allow G&W to mix up his game, pressure opponents, and actually have a move to bait them with.
Personally, I'd be game for option 1 that I mentioned, as it addresses some of the problems others claim G&W has overpowering other characters.
A neutral air damage nerf I'd be hesitant on. I don't see the move as being useful enough to warrant this, it's lack of comboing for example (as you mentioned). 17 damage is also the max damage it gets out.
Slivik, we all know G&W can succeed in a competitive level. But he can play a game of perfect spacing all he wants, but even a perfectly spaced aerial can be SDI'd out of and punished. Even my computers SDI my Bair on a regular basis (who says computers don't learn?). You could just retreat aerials and avoid punishment if they SDI out of it, but that doesn't create any opportunity for reward with G&W if he is purposely landing outside of range. G&W does have a good spacing game, and he can compete at a high level, but how would you feel about giving his more useless moves a purpose? We also need to invite Hylian in here to get his opinion; if we can get his word that G&W can use some more depth despite his ability to succeed at a high level already then that's going to make proposing this all the much easier.
If this is going to be proposed to the WBR, I feel its important to have a detailed explanation of how the move is going to change. I think this will prevent any misinterpretation of what we are doing.
Like Silven not really understanding what kind of use Chef would have (a campy mid range move that makes G&W overly defensive as he said).
I think the proper route is to definitely add less endlag on Chef. That still makes a very punishable move with a fairly high risk in a faster paced game. Giving proper use of the move a nice reward, via a followup would be a great thing to give Chef, while situational, a solid use.
In vBrawl it served as a pretty nice way to augment G&W's spacing, but the faster paced and much more offensive play, makes it because you leave yourself open for no reward. So now, pretty high risk while leaving G&W open with plenty of startup, but leading into Nair, Fair or a RAR'd Bair on contact.
Quicker startup is going to make it more spammable, though still no true reward for locking the opponent in some food. I don't think we want to go that direction.
As for a tradeoff, adjusting Bair's final hit KB angle is a good consideration. The move is a great defensive option with its range, and an improved Chef could also effectively be turned into a defensive tool against far away approaches as well. So nerfing his already great defensive tool could work. As it stands, the last hit of Bair allows for another aerial (which aerials work best depends on %) so I can see Bair turned into a move that still stops close approaches but creates a more neutral position for each characters instead of giving the advantage to G&W. If we are going to use this, we need to find the right angle, so keep that in mind.
As far as nerfing the damage of Nair, it might not be the most justified nerf (because it only links into itself and Uair as Kaiser said) but it could still work as a tradeoff for a more minor tweak. Nair's damage output really shines on the many platforms throughout Brawl, and its not too rare to see over 50% from like 3 Nairs alone. Obviously if we reduce the damage the KB values are going to have to be brought up to compensate for the automatic loss in KB that damage loss causes.
As far as Dtilt goes, I would prefer to increase the endlag instead of the startup personally. Dtilt is already very punishable, though still remains very spammable. It becomes a great spacer on the ground because of how quick it is, and I don't want to touch that. More endlag after the hitbox disappears would keep it as a great spacer on the ground but just something that takes more consideration to use. If we touch Dtilt we'll just see how each works out and go with the better option. Better option not being the better move, but the better choice for a tradeoff.
With Ftilt, I would like to see it as more of a kill move. Creating a lessened Melee Dtilt would be awesome, but I think it's clear that G&W is more of a defensive character considering his pretty poor approach game; a move that can create combo options might be a bit too much to ask for if we want Chef to already become a move that rewards G&W. If it's going to have more KB then it would probably need some more startup lag. Frame 10 is almost as fast as some character's jabs so its not like the move is slow (just slow compared to Dtilt which currently outshines it). It would be easier to land then his smashes, while killing later, which is pretty common among the killing tilts (except Snake or DDD
). I would like to see the lingering hitbox stay which still allows it to punish spot dodge happy players.
My opinions for now, let's keep this going and get some great ideas going. Also, the best thing to do with this is test them out ourselves to make sure our ideas work before proposing them. So does anybody have experience coding, or connections with somebody who could help us out with this?
If this is going to be proposed to the WBR, I feel its important to have a detailed explanation of how the move is going to change. I think this will prevent any misinterpretation of what we are doing.
Like Silven not really understanding what kind of use Chef would have (a campy mid range move that makes G&W overly defensive as he said).
I think the proper route is to definitely add less endlag on Chef. That still makes a very punishable move with a fairly high risk in a faster paced game. Giving proper use of the move a nice reward, via a followup would be a great thing to give Chef, while situational, a solid use.
In vBrawl it served as a pretty nice way to augment G&W's spacing, but the faster paced and much more offensive play, makes it because you leave yourself open for no reward. So now, pretty high risk while leaving G&W open with plenty of startup, but leading into Nair, Fair or a RAR'd Bair on contact.
Quicker startup is going to make it more spammable, though still no true reward for locking the opponent in some food. I don't think we want to go that direction.
As for a tradeoff, adjusting Bair's final hit KB angle is a good consideration. The move is a great defensive option with its range, and an improved Chef could also effectively be turned into a defensive tool against far away approaches as well. So nerfing his already great defensive tool could work. As it stands, the last hit of Bair allows for another aerial (which aerials work best depends on %) so I can see Bair turned into a move that still stops close approaches but creates a more neutral position for each characters instead of giving the advantage to G&W. If we are going to use this, we need to find the right angle, so keep that in mind.
As far as nerfing the damage of Nair, it might not be the most justified nerf (because it only links into itself and Uair as Kaiser said) but it could still work as a tradeoff for a more minor tweak. Nair's damage output really shines on the many platforms throughout Brawl, and its not too rare to see over 50% from like 3 Nairs alone. Obviously if we reduce the damage the KB values are going to have to be brought up to compensate for the automatic loss in KB that damage loss causes.
As far as Dtilt goes, I would prefer to increase the endlag instead of the startup personally. Dtilt is already very punishable, though still remains very spammable. It becomes a great spacer on the ground because of how quick it is, and I don't want to touch that. More endlag after the hitbox disappears would keep it as a great spacer on the ground but just something that takes more consideration to use. If we touch Dtilt we'll just see how each works out and go with the better option. Better option not being the better move, but the better choice for a tradeoff.
With Ftilt, I would like to see it as more of a kill move. Creating a lessened Melee Dtilt would be awesome, but I think it's clear that G&W is more of a defensive character considering his pretty poor approach game; a move that can create combo options might be a bit too much to ask for if we want Chef to already become a move that rewards G&W. If it's going to have more KB then it would probably need some more startup lag. Frame 10 is almost as fast as some character's jabs so its not like the move is slow (just slow compared to Dtilt which currently outshines it). It would be easier to land then his smashes, while killing later, which is pretty common among the killing tilts (except Snake or DDD
). I would like to see the lingering hitbox stay which still allows it to punish spot dodge happy players.My opinions for now, let's keep this going and get some great ideas going. Also, the best thing to do with this is test them out ourselves to make sure our ideas work before proposing them. So does anybody have experience coding, or connections with somebody who could help us out with this?
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Well, I can test a few things up to a point. Any modifications that involve KB and angles of moves require hitbox data, which I cannot get. However, I can edit the speed of moves, which includes startup, endlag, and lingering hitboxes.
I'd like to here what Hylian thinks of all this.
I'd like to here what Hylian thinks of all this.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I'd just like to add that as a Lucas and Ness player, I know that one of the main reasons G&W is so good against these two characters is Oil Panic, so a nerf for that would obviously help two of the more ridiculous matchups G&W has be less ridiculous.
EDIT: The actual bucket screws over these matchups too since he can just jump out and bucket PKT
EDIT2: Although that is less of a problem since Lucas can zap jump and Ness has multiple PKT1
EDIT: The actual bucket screws over these matchups too since he can just jump out and bucket PKT
EDIT2: Although that is less of a problem since Lucas can zap jump and Ness has multiple PKT1
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
Yes, a dual nerf might be in order. I certainly have little qualms with a bucket nerf in the spirit of better game balance.
CountKaiser, being able to test things out would be great!
I think we want to try 3 variations of a buff:
1. Decreased end lag: This is the obvious one. Testing can figure out an appropriate reduction, but basically we want to have a goal for this. For example, must be reduced enough so it can combo into neutral air, or perhaps forward air so we have one of those kill options we so yearn to combo into.
2. Decreased end lag, slight decrease in startup time: This applies the same principle as the first, but has a slight increase in startup to compensate for the games increased play speed which plays against the move's effectiveness (ability to get out in time even when properly predicting opponents). Testing would show whether this is overpowered, or uncalled for.
3. Overall slight increase in the move's speed: This would not necessarily let the move combo into other moves, but would make it a better projectile in itself overall. The reduction in endlag would not be so much. The food would fire out faster, compensating for its unpredictable trajectories.
CountKaiser, being able to test things out would be great!
I think we want to try 3 variations of a buff:
1. Decreased end lag: This is the obvious one. Testing can figure out an appropriate reduction, but basically we want to have a goal for this. For example, must be reduced enough so it can combo into neutral air, or perhaps forward air so we have one of those kill options we so yearn to combo into.
2. Decreased end lag, slight decrease in startup time: This applies the same principle as the first, but has a slight increase in startup to compensate for the games increased play speed which plays against the move's effectiveness (ability to get out in time even when properly predicting opponents). Testing would show whether this is overpowered, or uncalled for.
3. Overall slight increase in the move's speed: This would not necessarily let the move combo into other moves, but would make it a better projectile in itself overall. The reduction in endlag would not be so much. The food would fire out faster, compensating for its unpredictable trajectories.
I tried to use Chef as much as possible yesterday and this morning, and unfortunately it looks like endlag alone wouldn't be enough to save the move.
I really didn't realize just how slow the move is on startup. Unless the opponent is some sort of massive moving hurtbox like Bowser. Even then though, fatties can still realistically punish it every time. Ganon can easily toss a Wiztruck or Murder Choke to close in quick enough, DDD can toss a Waddle or Ftilt from a mile away, both Donkey and Zard are easily fast enough (especially Zard... tied with Pikachu's running speed) and Snake... well he's Snake. It just seems like it was basically impossible to not get punished even before food started to fly.
Everyone is faster in B+, so while in vBrawl there was such a thing as a safe distance to throw Chef, that distance is much farther away. It would still be a horrible move even with a reward if the only way to not get badly punished was to be a FD away when throwing a piece of food.
We are going to have to try each way, less startup, less endlag, and a smaller loss in each to be safe though. From what I saw yesterday end lag won't be enough alone. Going less endlag has the appeal of getting a nice reward for it, but realistically if both startup and endlag are reduced we won't have too much of a reduction.
The way I see it right now, perhaps an ideal way to speed the move up is to allow for a followup if the opponent gets caught in the food from a close distance. The longer range trajectories won't have an opportunity for followups (or at least anything guaranteed), but G&W is safe on contact. So Chef isn't going to be the most reliable thing in the world, but we knew that anyways. If you want to think on the bright side, that will stop people from ever thinking we just gave G&W a real projectile. Chef isn't going to be a fast long range all purpose thing like Falco's lasers, or Snake's nades (seriously... why do people think it will become a real projectile?)
The more I look at that option the more I like it. An overall increase in speed would give it a similar usage as it had in vBrawl, though less situational. It would be a nice way for G&W to apply spacing from a little bit further away than if he just used Bair/Dtilt, but by no means outshaddow them because it would still be a slower option. The move was at least usable in vBrawl because of how slow the game was, so more than anything it would be compensating for the speed increase in B+, while making it a little better overall to compensate for a nerf somewhere else (probably going to be Bair, if you want the most ideal and appealing tradeoff, but we'll see).
As far as the bucket goes, if the KB (and damage?) of oil panic is reduced then we might even be able to push for a small reduction in lag for the move. Just throwing ideas out, so don't take it too seriously, but if the move wasn't as lol instakill then bucket may be able to be turned into a more realistic way to deal with projectiles. IMO it is just way too laggy to be of any true use unless the other opponent really wants to toss energy projectiles at you from across the stage... and that is just stupid to do. At close range it is perfectly reasonable to keep spamming G&W because pulling out the bucket is going to be punished harder than whatever the projectile itself is.
I really didn't realize just how slow the move is on startup. Unless the opponent is some sort of massive moving hurtbox like Bowser. Even then though, fatties can still realistically punish it every time. Ganon can easily toss a Wiztruck or Murder Choke to close in quick enough, DDD can toss a Waddle or Ftilt from a mile away, both Donkey and Zard are easily fast enough (especially Zard... tied with Pikachu's running speed) and Snake... well he's Snake. It just seems like it was basically impossible to not get punished even before food started to fly.
Everyone is faster in B+, so while in vBrawl there was such a thing as a safe distance to throw Chef, that distance is much farther away. It would still be a horrible move even with a reward if the only way to not get badly punished was to be a FD away when throwing a piece of food.
We are going to have to try each way, less startup, less endlag, and a smaller loss in each to be safe though. From what I saw yesterday end lag won't be enough alone. Going less endlag has the appeal of getting a nice reward for it, but realistically if both startup and endlag are reduced we won't have too much of a reduction.
The way I see it right now, perhaps an ideal way to speed the move up is to allow for a followup if the opponent gets caught in the food from a close distance. The longer range trajectories won't have an opportunity for followups (or at least anything guaranteed), but G&W is safe on contact. So Chef isn't going to be the most reliable thing in the world, but we knew that anyways. If you want to think on the bright side, that will stop people from ever thinking we just gave G&W a real projectile. Chef isn't going to be a fast long range all purpose thing like Falco's lasers, or Snake's nades (seriously... why do people think it will become a real projectile?)
The more I look at that option the more I like it. An overall increase in speed would give it a similar usage as it had in vBrawl, though less situational. It would be a nice way for G&W to apply spacing from a little bit further away than if he just used Bair/Dtilt, but by no means outshaddow them because it would still be a slower option. The move was at least usable in vBrawl because of how slow the game was, so more than anything it would be compensating for the speed increase in B+, while making it a little better overall to compensate for a nerf somewhere else (probably going to be Bair, if you want the most ideal and appealing tradeoff, but we'll see).
As far as the bucket goes, if the KB (and damage?) of oil panic is reduced then we might even be able to push for a small reduction in lag for the move. Just throwing ideas out, so don't take it too seriously, but if the move wasn't as lol instakill then bucket may be able to be turned into a more realistic way to deal with projectiles. IMO it is just way too laggy to be of any true use unless the other opponent really wants to toss energy projectiles at you from across the stage... and that is just stupid to do. At close range it is perfectly reasonable to keep spamming G&W because pulling out the bucket is going to be punished harder than whatever the projectile itself is.
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
In terms of the bucket, that thing does need a power reduction. The current amount of damage and KB it does is silly. Problem is, can it be edited as of now?
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
I've heard that it counts as a projectile, so this might be the case.
If it can be, a good tradeoff for it could be to speed up how fast it actually buckets the projectile, as using the move, even when bucketing properly, can leave you open, as you said Plum.
I suspected as much with chef. When I originally proposed the move change, I only wanted to make it so when you did rarely hit with the move it was a good thing. Since the WBR saw this as too extreme for such a good character, we had to argue how it could make a shallow character like G&W more interesting to play as and more interesting to play against. To give G&W a fair tradeoff for a nerf like one to his turtle, though, he'd need a slight buff to the startup speed so that the move is more than highly situational.
CountKaiser, I look forward to the codes to test all this.
If it can be, a good tradeoff for it could be to speed up how fast it actually buckets the projectile, as using the move, even when bucketing properly, can leave you open, as you said Plum.
I suspected as much with chef. When I originally proposed the move change, I only wanted to make it so when you did rarely hit with the move it was a good thing. Since the WBR saw this as too extreme for such a good character, we had to argue how it could make a shallow character like G&W more interesting to play as and more interesting to play against. To give G&W a fair tradeoff for a nerf like one to his turtle, though, he'd need a slight buff to the startup speed so that the move is more than highly situational.
CountKaiser, I look forward to the codes to test all this.
slikvik
Smash Master
just won a tournament yesterday. went mostly G&W/Peach. Still think he has a simple but effective metagame that needs no changes. vids will be up eventually
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
What tourney was this? Who went? Why wasn't I notified? 
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Kaiser it was listed in Atl North like 2 weeks ago. Pay attention moar!
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
Very nice job Slikvik! Will there be any vids?
I'm still game for nerfing the final hit of turtle (to make it less dominating) in exchange of making his chef more useful. I'd still like to test frame speed modifications to chef.
I do think, however, that even if we did agree on a change, we shouldn't bother the WBR about it until they get the new engine code done. They are currently running low on the number of frame speed modifications they can do with the current code, and I don't feel like G&W is a highest priority while things are tight. This doesn't mean we can't test changes for ourselves, though.
I'm still game for nerfing the final hit of turtle (to make it less dominating) in exchange of making his chef more useful. I'd still like to test frame speed modifications to chef.
I do think, however, that even if we did agree on a change, we shouldn't bother the WBR about it until they get the new engine code done. They are currently running low on the number of frame speed modifications they can do with the current code, and I don't feel like G&W is a highest priority while things are tight. This doesn't mean we can't test changes for ourselves, though.
Kaiser has a quicker version of Chef to test if you talk to him about it CyberGlitch.
He sped up the startup, from coming out on frame 18 to frame 14, and the endlag was speed up from 49 (I think it was frame 49, Kaiser might remember better) to frame 40.
I haven't had the chance to try out this new version, but he had an earlier modification with the same startup and even less endlag.
My opinions on the startup is that its great. It's still slow, and easy to punish if you are just throwing it around, but the few frames cut off from it are more of a thing to compensate for the increased speed of B+.
The version I tried earlier, with even less endlag basically made it a MACHINE at stopping aerial approaches from a distance. If you could predict an aerial approach and had enough distance between you and the opponent then it was almost guaranteed to put the opponent in a bad position. Basically it gave the opponent two choices, get hit by the food, retreat if they are a mobile enough character (like Wario) or airdodge through the food. Getting hit by the food didn't guarantee a followup, but by no means was it bad. The food has such little hitstun that the only way I could get a guaranteed Nair or Fair was if they were hit by another piece of food right after as I finished Chef. This didn't happen very often because of the random trajectories, but it still gave me plenty of room to go on the offensive by giving me a pretty favorable position. If they airdodged through it, it was just easy to punish too by just waiting for their invincibility to end and attacking.
The cons about it overall was that it really was too good. In terms of how punishable it was, it was still very much so. G&W is still wide open to a ground approach, so if he predicts wrong he gets easily punished. But from an aerial stance it was too easy to make a wall and I think G&W was getting out a little too fast. The IASA frames allowed him to fling all of the pieces very quickly and then get out of the end lag to avoid a lot of potential punishment even if it was incorrectly used. Kaiser had the right idea in slowing it down a little more at the end.
So he doesn't really get guaranteed followups from it, but if you do catch an opponent in it G&W gets an overall better position where he can continue to use his range. I think its also key to remember that it wasn't something that could be spammed by any means; G&W was still wide open to a ground approach, whether it would be a dash attack or DC option, both of which can easily get through the pan hitbox (I never had the pan hitbox beat something out durring a rush down when I though they were going to come through the air).
Kaiser and I talked about a tradeoff and the two obvious options are Bair or Dtilt. Dtilt would probably be slowed down to become a more precision spacing tool, where as with Bair we would probably want the hitbox data of that to make a more proper tradeoff if that was where we wanted to go.
To people who think G&W is fine, I know where you are coming from. He is a simple character, and effective enough to succeed as it is right now; I like the way he is now myself. If I didn't enjoy him already he wouldn't be one of my mains in B+ and the only character I played in vBrawl. But I do feel that giving him a more versatile moveset that really plays on the defensive powerhouse his range and disjointed hitboxes lend him to be is at least something to try out. If other G&W players don't like the changes (after trying them out that is), then we won't go anywhere with it, and leave him as is.
He sped up the startup, from coming out on frame 18 to frame 14, and the endlag was speed up from 49 (I think it was frame 49, Kaiser might remember better) to frame 40.
I haven't had the chance to try out this new version, but he had an earlier modification with the same startup and even less endlag.
My opinions on the startup is that its great. It's still slow, and easy to punish if you are just throwing it around, but the few frames cut off from it are more of a thing to compensate for the increased speed of B+.
The version I tried earlier, with even less endlag basically made it a MACHINE at stopping aerial approaches from a distance. If you could predict an aerial approach and had enough distance between you and the opponent then it was almost guaranteed to put the opponent in a bad position. Basically it gave the opponent two choices, get hit by the food, retreat if they are a mobile enough character (like Wario) or airdodge through the food. Getting hit by the food didn't guarantee a followup, but by no means was it bad. The food has such little hitstun that the only way I could get a guaranteed Nair or Fair was if they were hit by another piece of food right after as I finished Chef. This didn't happen very often because of the random trajectories, but it still gave me plenty of room to go on the offensive by giving me a pretty favorable position. If they airdodged through it, it was just easy to punish too by just waiting for their invincibility to end and attacking.
The cons about it overall was that it really was too good. In terms of how punishable it was, it was still very much so. G&W is still wide open to a ground approach, so if he predicts wrong he gets easily punished. But from an aerial stance it was too easy to make a wall and I think G&W was getting out a little too fast. The IASA frames allowed him to fling all of the pieces very quickly and then get out of the end lag to avoid a lot of potential punishment even if it was incorrectly used. Kaiser had the right idea in slowing it down a little more at the end.
So he doesn't really get guaranteed followups from it, but if you do catch an opponent in it G&W gets an overall better position where he can continue to use his range. I think its also key to remember that it wasn't something that could be spammed by any means; G&W was still wide open to a ground approach, whether it would be a dash attack or DC option, both of which can easily get through the pan hitbox (I never had the pan hitbox beat something out durring a rush down when I though they were going to come through the air).
Kaiser and I talked about a tradeoff and the two obvious options are Bair or Dtilt. Dtilt would probably be slowed down to become a more precision spacing tool, where as with Bair we would probably want the hitbox data of that to make a more proper tradeoff if that was where we wanted to go.
To people who think G&W is fine, I know where you are coming from. He is a simple character, and effective enough to succeed as it is right now; I like the way he is now myself. If I didn't enjoy him already he wouldn't be one of my mains in B+ and the only character I played in vBrawl. But I do feel that giving him a more versatile moveset that really plays on the defensive powerhouse his range and disjointed hitboxes lend him to be is at least something to try out. If other G&W players don't like the changes (after trying them out that is
), then we won't go anywhere with it, and leave him as is.fireballtr
Smash Rookie
Anyone have some tips for beating Olimar with GaW? My friend plays a mean one and just seems to not only have me in the range department on the ground but in the air has priority over my attacks (which caught me offguard the first time since I'm used to using my priority and maneuverability in the air to overpower most characters) I also try to avoid ground approaches since my friend is absurdly good at microing olimar's pikman for grab range
on the upside, love the changes to frying pan, makes it actually useful to force opponents to attack from the air since it doesn't keep you in a loop
on the upside, love the changes to frying pan, makes it actually useful to force opponents to attack from the air since it doesn't keep you in a loop
GuruKid
Smash Ace
After about a week of trying him out and getting a lot of complaints from fellow NYC players about him, I picked up G&W as a secondary.
I really can't see why some people think he needs any changes. He's just a beastly character; though his playstyle can feel mindless at times, his design naturally makes him a great character.
Vids soon.
I really can't see why some people think he needs any changes. He's just a beastly character; though his playstyle can feel mindless at times, his design naturally makes him a great character.
Vids soon.
slikvik
Smash Master
winners finals. me vs Vist(luigi)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkltGCrxE4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIUgDgq5vME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyrEyLPgsvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNi1fFvUkO4 (fav)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkltGCrxE4Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIUgDgq5vME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyrEyLPgsvE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNi1fFvUkO4 (fav)
The Phenom
Smash Lord
Good to see a Game and Watch veteran rep him up.
the game and watch in Brawl+ looks very natural now; like hes supposed to be that way. So I also agree that anything else on him should not be changed. I can't wait until I lay my hands back on the B+ game and watch as soon as I can get B+ working again for me.
Good games Slikvik and nice seeing you; it's been a very long while not seeing you play game and watch =) .
Patches
Smash Master
I was playing GaW in Brawl+ in a tournament the other day, and I came in fifth. Not too bad.
So... PSA is out and everything...
Not saying this would ever be an actual thing or not (because it would never ever be), but for the lulz I'm going to look into giving G&W his Chute back as Nair.
But don't expect anything remotely soon... The program is still brand new to me, and I've managed to change some basic animations (not a specific part like G&W taking his Chute from Up B) and hitboxes still confuse me at this point... But hey, we all secretly miss the Chute.
Not saying this would ever be an actual thing or not (because it would never ever be), but for the lulz I'm going to look into giving G&W his Chute back as Nair.
But don't expect anything remotely soon... The program is still brand new to me, and I've managed to change some basic animations (not a specific part like G&W taking his Chute from Up B) and hitboxes still confuse me at this point... But hey, we all secretly miss the Chute.
Sr. P & R
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 76
This board is kind of slow, but I made a G&W w/ Melee Nair. The main issue is that I couldn't figure out how bypass the closing animation of the chute, and it looks kind of weird.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68b4f21bdbd13801e7ba8e3c6e11ce20d6293bbf5de0c7065621d66e282a0ee8
There is the file, he has an extra jump to aid with testing. Let me know it you manage to improve on it.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=68b4f21bdbd13801e7ba8e3c6e11ce20d6293bbf5de0c7065621d66e282a0ee8
There is the file, he has an extra jump to aid with testing. Let me know it you manage to improve on it.
Aww you beat me to a Melee Nair I'll give it a shot later.
Here's something I've been thinking about today:
I'm starting to feel like the global Dsmash speedup should be changed.
As we all know, it was speed up to actually allow G&W to tech chase a larger portion of the cast after the global tech speed increase. However there's one thing that I am starting to dislike about the current Dthrow, and that is how blatantly obvious it is that you are going for a Dthrow. It takes like 5 seconds to learn how to consistently tech his Dthrow, and it doesn't help that you automatically know he is going to Dthrow because of the faster animation compared to his other throws.
I tested this once, and in like 30 seconds so I don't know if it is perfect (might have miss counted how many frames) but the current Dthrow has 14 frames of cool down from the time they actually the ground. Again, don't hold me to that number because I only ran through his Dthrow once in the debug pause mode.
Regardless, I propose that we remove the global speedup of Dthrow and instead just reduce the cooldown to the ~14 frames it is now.
I've been playing a lot of Melee G&W lately (<3 the combo **** he had back then) and one thing I liked about his grab game (apart from the fact that it was actually good) was that his throwing animation could cause the opponent to DI incorrectly and leave them in an even worse situation. Granted this would be less useful in Brawl than it was in Melee (He had CG's, legit combos, and could even combo into kill moves from grabs... no way Brawl's grab game is getting close to that without giving G&W some massive buffs and his Melee Nair to do the killing with).
If the actual throwing animation was the same speed as his other throws it opens up the door to other tactics. Every time you land a grab you could U/B/Fthrow and condition them to simply DIing whatever direction. By the time they get to killing %'s and you Dthrow, chances are they miss the tech/buffered roll and you get a free Dsmash. Is that useful outside of once a set? No, but imagine that one mind **** could win you a match, and that match could win you the set. As it is now, the opponent is practically guaranteed to tech Dthrow because there is no way you wouldn't know G&W is using Dthrow because of the distinct animation speed.
Tl;Dr
Remove the global 130% speedup of Dthrow and replace it with a 130% speedup of the cooldown portion alone. Still allows for the same degree of techchasing the current Dthrow has, but the opponent isn't given an obvious giveaway that he is using Dthrow.
I'll give it a shot later.Here's something I've been thinking about today:
I'm starting to feel like the global Dsmash speedup should be changed.
As we all know, it was speed up to actually allow G&W to tech chase a larger portion of the cast after the global tech speed increase. However there's one thing that I am starting to dislike about the current Dthrow, and that is how blatantly obvious it is that you are going for a Dthrow. It takes like 5 seconds to learn how to consistently tech his Dthrow, and it doesn't help that you automatically know he is going to Dthrow because of the faster animation compared to his other throws.
I tested this once, and in like 30 seconds so I don't know if it is perfect (might have miss counted how many frames) but the current Dthrow has 14 frames of cool down from the time they actually the ground. Again, don't hold me to that number because I only ran through his Dthrow once in the debug pause mode.
Regardless, I propose that we remove the global speedup of Dthrow and instead just reduce the cooldown to the ~14 frames it is now.
I've been playing a lot of Melee G&W lately (<3 the combo **** he had back then) and one thing I liked about his grab game (apart from the fact that it was actually good) was that his throwing animation could cause the opponent to DI incorrectly and leave them in an even worse situation. Granted this would be less useful in Brawl than it was in Melee (He had CG's, legit combos, and could even combo into kill moves from grabs... no way Brawl's grab game is getting close to that without giving G&W some massive buffs and his Melee Nair to do the killing with).
If the actual throwing animation was the same speed as his other throws it opens up the door to other tactics. Every time you land a grab you could U/B/Fthrow and condition them to simply DIing whatever direction. By the time they get to killing %'s and you Dthrow, chances are they miss the tech/buffered roll and you get a free Dsmash. Is that useful outside of once a set? No, but imagine that one mind **** could win you a match, and that match could win you the set. As it is now, the opponent is practically guaranteed to tech Dthrow because there is no way you wouldn't know G&W is using Dthrow because of the distinct animation speed.
Tl;Dr
Remove the global 130% speedup of Dthrow and replace it with a 130% speedup of the cooldown portion alone. Still allows for the same degree of techchasing the current Dthrow has, but the opponent isn't given an obvious giveaway that he is using Dthrow.
Mattnumbers
Smash Master
I think that you G&W mains should continue to pursue the chef buff you guys wanted way back when in return for some nerf to one of G&W more ridiculous moves such as turtle.
Sr. P & R
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 76
Lol, you beat me to posting the problem about Dthrow.Aww you beat me to a Melee Nair
Here's something I've been thinking about today:
I'm starting to feel like the global Dsmash speedup should be changed.
As we all know, it was speed up to actually allow G&W to tech chase a larger portion of the cast after the global tech speed increase. However there's one thing that I am starting to dislike about the current Dthrow, and that is how blatantly obvious it is that you are going for a Dthrow. It takes like 5 seconds to learn how to consistently tech his Dthrow, and it doesn't help that you automatically know he is going to Dthrow because of the faster animation compared to his other throws.
But, seriously, just a day or two ago I was playing B+ and I thought "That is the DUMBEST "Buff" evar!!!". That must have not been tested or thought about too much
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Just gonna let you guys know...
Will do on the d-throw. That one wasn't too well thought out
Will do on the d-throw. That one wasn't too well thought out
Off topic from G&W+ (well kinda on topic, but not really) but does anyone else think G&W would be extreme **** if his Melee moveset was used with some of the things Brawl gave G&W?
Combo **** Fair, combo **** Dtilt, anti aerial Utilt, Melee Nair, DI dependent CG's on fast fallers, throws comboing into kills, no auto fastfall Dair anything else I may be missing.
On top of that he would have his Brawl Uair and Bair, Up B (though it would probably look better if he had no Chute considering it's going back to Nair), and most importantly a shield that covers him and the greater resistance to combos Brawl airdodge gives him.
To actually be more balanced you could make Bair easy to get out of like it was in Melee, and give his Nair, Uair and Bair landing lag considering they couldn't be L-canceled in Melee.
So basically it would give G&W a great combo game, reliable kills, and overall ****. It would be too good XD (I sense a project)
About the Dthrow:
Something I forgot was that G&W's throw animations are weight dependent. So fatties take longer to throw than the heavy weights. It would make pinning a perfect frame number to start the speedup on impossible. If I had my Wii with me I would see the difference between somebody like DDD to Jiggly but I can't at the moment. If the difference is a few frames then you could just use the lower number from lightweights to start the speedup on. Assuming the difference is a matter of frames then the look of the animation wouldn't be affected enough to really notice it, but that's all theory.
I have a feeling that the animation being weight dependent might be why it was a global speedup, but I don't know :\
Combo **** Fair, combo **** Dtilt, anti aerial Utilt, Melee Nair, DI dependent CG's on fast fallers, throws comboing into kills, no auto fastfall Dair anything else I may be missing.
On top of that he would have his Brawl Uair and Bair, Up B (though it would probably look better if he had no Chute considering it's going back to Nair), and most importantly a shield that covers him and the greater resistance to combos Brawl airdodge gives him.
To actually be more balanced you could make Bair easy to get out of like it was in Melee, and give his Nair, Uair and Bair landing lag considering they couldn't be L-canceled in Melee.
So basically it would give G&W a great combo game, reliable kills, and overall ****. It would be too good XD (I sense a project
)About the Dthrow:
Something I forgot was that G&W's throw animations are weight dependent. So fatties take longer to throw than the heavy weights. It would make pinning a perfect frame number to start the speedup on impossible. If I had my Wii with me I would see the difference between somebody like DDD to Jiggly but I can't at the moment. If the difference is a few frames then you could just use the lower number from lightweights to start the speedup on. Assuming the difference is a matter of frames then the look of the animation wouldn't be affected enough to really notice it, but that's all theory.
I have a feeling that the animation being weight dependent might be why it was a global speedup, but I don't know :\
Sr. P & R
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 76
I'm getting close to being fairly satisfied with my Melee Nair, but I can't really decide where to go with it.
I've seen two possibilities of how to have the move function that would be beneficial to Mr. G&W
1. Similar to melee. Mid range knockback, but somewhat slow
I've seen two possibilities of how to have the move function that would be beneficial to Mr. G&W
1. Similar to melee. Mid range knockback, but somewhat slow
- Good combo Finisher
- Kill move at Mid-High percents
- Viable edgeguarding
- Could be comboed into
- Excellent for combos
- A good WoP at Mid percents
- Good edgeguarding
- Possible comboing into kill moves
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
I'd like fair to be option 2, where nair is option 1.
Sr. P & R
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 76
Here is my first "real" version of the Melee Nair. I know the animation looks weird, but it was the only thing that worked well.
Version 0.2(?)
http://www.mediafire.com/?rjymvt12m3m
Please feel free to comment and critique
Here are some pics
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv204/Sr_PyR/b6e6ccb184ddf156.jpg
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv204/Sr_PyR/67df3675b8719c88.jpg
EDITEDIT: Fixed
Version 0.2(?)
http://www.mediafire.com/?rjymvt12m3m
Please feel free to comment and critique
Here are some pics
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv204/Sr_PyR/b6e6ccb184ddf156.jpg
http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv204/Sr_PyR/67df3675b8719c88.jpg
EDITEDIT: Fixed
The Phenom
Smash Lord
Is it possible for you to put the picture of it on photobucket? I can't support that file type.
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
It's a PSA file - put it into private/wii/apps/RSBE/pf/fighter/GameWatch/ and load brawl+ up. It will load the changes automatically.
The Phenom
Smash Lord
Oh jeez you mean this isn't a picture just to view? Well I'll be able to test this on B+ Friday; that's my Smash day with friends.
I still play a lot of Melee Game and Watch so it would be very cool to give this a semi-new Nair a try on B+. Very useful reply; thanks for your input
And to the people who are making this possible. You guys are getting a Melee Game and Watch to test this out =P thanks for the giving fun of making me want to experiment this, you guys Rock!
Sr. P & R
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2009
- Messages
- 76
I will say that the Nair is pretty close to falling through. I'm to the point that if I can't find an efficient way to get the parachute disappear, it won't work
So far, It looks like things might not turn out. The parachute just wasn't designed to work in that way.
So far, It looks like things might not turn out. The parachute just wasn't designed to work in that way.
So I heardz G&W can flingz his bacon better now.
4 frames less startup (frame 14 from 18) and 11 frames less cooldown (38 from 49).
The little boost to startup actually makes it a safe move to use against aerial approaches, and much more useful at mid range without getting immediately bum rushed for using the move.
Cooldown doesn't guarantee followups, but leaves the opponent in a bad position where G&W can has the advantage.
The cost was at a less spammy Dtilt. Comes out frame 8 instead of 6, and after frame 16 it is at 80% speed. Basically you just have to be a little smarter with when you use Dtilt. It's very much worth it considering Chef's potential, and the minimal amount more effort Dtilt will take to space/stop ground approaches just as effectively.
Hooray G&W finally got something? (discuss >.>)
4 frames less startup (frame 14 from 18) and 11 frames less cooldown (38 from 49).
The little boost to startup actually makes it a safe move to use against aerial approaches, and much more useful at mid range without getting immediately bum rushed for using the move.
Cooldown doesn't guarantee followups, but leaves the opponent in a bad position where G&W can has the advantage.
The cost was at a less spammy Dtilt. Comes out frame 8 instead of 6, and after frame 16 it is at 80% speed. Basically you just have to be a little smarter with when you use Dtilt. It's very much worth it considering Chef's potential, and the minimal amount more effort Dtilt will take to space/stop ground approaches just as effectively.
Hooray G&W finally got something? (discuss >.>)
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
Yay my stuff made it into the build. :D
I like it, but then again, I made it. >.>
I like it, but then again, I made it. >.>
The Phenom
Smash Lord
Oh **** CountKaiser you sped up the chef? Wow faster chef is to good =) it's horrible in Melee. Can't wait to try this out in a couple of hours =) . You Rock CountKaiser!
Interesting...sounds like a VERY cool thing to try tomorrow and see how I can combo with it.I love the new Chef buff, great job Kaiser
The angle of the Pan's knockback is great for edgeguarding. The food helps his predictability and is great for protecting his recovery.
Hmmm...agreed. Good trade in for chef speed up.
Got some matches recorded; last night's build. Matches include the added feature: Melee Nair by Sr. P & R and also what I think, CountKaiser's speed up in Chef. I will upload later on today; going to catch some ZZZZZZZZZzzzzz now.
PS: I'm really happy with the Nair =) ; a little awkward like you said but it's perfect.
CyberGlitch
Smash Journeyman
Haha, see everyone? All that debating/trolling (jk), discussion, and testing paid off! Good work CountKaiser! We just had to wait until the new engine came out so more space was available for frame speed mods.
I've been having a ball with the faster chef. Hitting with the pan is easier, and easier to follow up on, I can use it offensively (mostly to pressure) and defensively. It can be used to edgeguard on the fly or even to prevent others from edgeguarding you. If somebody hits the food just right, it can link into an Fair or neutral air. Combine the chef with a trigger finger on that Up B and you've got an effective defense against approaches.
As for the Downtilt nerf....BAH! I shouldn't have to think before using the move.
A Melee style Fair would be interesting, especially since I loved the Melee Fair and I can't quite tell what went wrong with it in Brawl and it it can/should be "fixed." Brawl neutral air is more interesting than neutral air. I'd even say more useful if G&W had more reliable kill moves.
What I want to see done with G&W's Fair is a slight frame extension to the frames it's sweatspot hitbox is out.
I've been having a ball with the faster chef. Hitting with the pan is easier, and easier to follow up on, I can use it offensively (mostly to pressure) and defensively. It can be used to edgeguard on the fly or even to prevent others from edgeguarding you. If somebody hits the food just right, it can link into an Fair or neutral air. Combine the chef with a trigger finger on that Up B and you've got an effective defense against approaches.
As for the Downtilt nerf....BAH! I shouldn't have to think before using the move.
A Melee style Fair would be interesting, especially since I loved the Melee Fair and I can't quite tell what went wrong with it in Brawl and it it can/should be "fixed." Brawl neutral air is more interesting than neutral air. I'd even say more useful if G&W had more reliable kill moves.
What I want to see done with G&W's Fair is a slight frame extension to the frames it's sweatspot hitbox is out.
The Phenom
Smash Lord
Finally got those videos up which feature the Melee Nair and I guess the speed up on Chef.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5PHNhfaOK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5_snDlUe7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOy-D0vNIY
Thanks goes to CountKaiser and Sr. P & R for editing moves of Game and Watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5PHNhfaOK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5_snDlUe7c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZOy-D0vNIY
Thanks goes to CountKaiser and Sr. P & R for editing moves of Game and Watch.