Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Ryazan]

I'm not competitive. I'm just a high-schooler who wants to be competitive but has no way to get to tournaments and whose parents don't want him to enter them. But I know every single AT yet known for my main, many known for my secondaries, and several known for my tertiaries. I "research the latest and best ways" to play as my characters in the hopes that one day I will be able to go competitive. Does not having official membership in the exclusive party of competitive Smashers make my opinion void?

 

[Zankoku]

It's rather not having the experience in competitive play to back up your claims that makes your opinions less credible, to an extent.

 

[Fabrian]

er pi pi pichu!!!

 

[Ryazan]

I have many friends who are just like me in that respect. We play each other all the time. That's the closest we've gotten to being competitive Smashers. I'm a player of Smash who does all he can to improve his skill and who often fights other people who do the same. That is the definition of competitive Smasher, is it not?

 

[Zankoku]

er pi pi pichu!!!

Do you have a point to this?

I have many friends who are just like me in that respect. We play each other all the time. That's the closest we've gotten to being competitive Smashers. I'm a player of Smash who does all he can to improve his skill and who often fights other people who do the same. That is the definition of competitive Smasher, is it not?

It is, but at the same time you've no tournament experience, so referencing past experience with friends, no matter how competitively you might play, does not have as much credibility because there are no results or objective data to show that the experience from playing with your friends is relevant to the current competitive metagame as it relates to tournaments.

It's kind of a "you can't say you're good until you prove it with results" thing, which some point out more harshly than others.

 

[thumbswayup]

I have many friends who are just like me in that respect. We play each other all the time. That's the closest we've gotten to being competitive Smashers. I'm a player of Smash who does all he can to improve his skill and who often fights other people who do the same. That is the definition of competitive Smasher, is it not?

Every Blitzer knows, when you've got the ball ya gotta score!

 

[Ryazan]

It is, but at the same time you've no tournament experience, so referencing past experience with friends, no matter how competitively you might play, does not have as much credibility because there are no results or objective data to show that the experience from playing with your friends is relevant to the current competitive metagame as it relates to tournaments.

It's kind of a "you can't say you're good until you prove it with results" thing, which some point out more harshly than others.

Well I thank you for pointing it out kindly, but we are not discussing the metagame as it relates to tournaments. We are discussing how balanced the character roster is. Tournament experience is not necessary for that. If the opinions of all who are not of note in the competitive scene are ignored, any verdict produced by this debate is no more than the heavily biased opinion of those who look down on the general populace of the Smash community. Such people deserve an opinion no more than I do.

 

[RDK]

Well I thank you for pointing it out kindly, but we are not discussing the metagame as it relates to tournaments. We are discussing how balanced the character roster is. Tournament experience is not necessary for that. If the opinions of all who are not of note in the competitive scene are ignored, any verdict produced by this debate is no more than the heavily biased opinion of those who look down on the general populace of the Smash community. Such people deserve an opinion no more than I do.

Whether or not the game is balanced is not an opinion. Their experience comes from playing in tournaments with other people involved in the metagame who have an understanding of it.

 

[Ryazan]

I should correct myself. When I said "opinions", I meant to say "voices". And I understand why people with absolutely no understanding of the metagame should not be allowed a voice in this matter; but the majority of the Smashboards community has a decent understanding of it. If only the voices of those with TOTAL understanding of the metagame are heard, then the resulting verdict means nothing to everyone else. Thus this entire discussion is useless for anyone except the masters of the competitive scene. But even so, those who have such understanding should not shun the rest of us so harshly.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Captain Falcon ends the topic here.
Arguably one of the few characters who are not competitively viable at all.
Even link from melee was competitively viable and in Brawl he really cannot compete dspite the fac thtat many agree with him being low tier material again.

As such this points out brawl is indeed less balanced since a character who is low tier again has a much greater gap to cross in order to compete with top tier characters.

 

[Yuna]

I'm not competitive. I'm just a high-schooler who wants to be competitive but has no way to get to tournaments and whose parents don't want him to enter them. But I know every single AT yet known for my main, many known for my secondaries, and several known for my tertiaries. I "research the latest and best ways" to play as my characters in the hopes that one day I will be able to go competitive. Does not having official membership in the exclusive party of competitive Smashers make my opinion void?

You have limited experience with the game. Not necessarily as the characters you play as but against other people. You play only against your friends and quite possibly online.

People who go to tournaments get to play against all kinds of people using all kinds of strategies. I can guarantee you that you'll learn new things at each and every single tournament you go to.

This is why people who do not play the game Competitively shouldn't be in a thread discussing the balance of Brawl. They just don't know enough about the game to determine what's balanced and what's not. Most people in this thread have never played against or even seen a really good Snake ot Meta-Knight player (as evidence by so many of them saying "Meta-Knight and Snake are nothing special. I can beat them with X-character.".

Even watching tons of videos and reading on Smashboards is not enough if you do not have the necessary experience and knowledge to determine what exactly Competitive game balance constitutes.

 

[Ryazan]

I'm as large a part of the competitive scene as one can be if one has people in their life who are trying to prevent them from doing so. You're a BRoomer, if only including the masters matters so much to you, why not discuss this there and get this thread closed?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i wish i could be more into the competetive sceen lol. but i have limitations that prevent me from going that far

 

[Yuna]

I'm as large a part of the competitive scene as one can be if one has people in their life who are trying to prevent them from doing so. You're a BRoomer, if only including the masters matters so much to you, why not discuss this there and get this thread closed?

The SBR consists only of a small portion of the Competitive Smashers out there. You might have the necessary experience and knowledge to judge game balance, I do not know. I don't know you and I can't pinpoint your qualifications based solely on a few blurbs.

But many others in this thread do not. I'm merely pointing out what you need to determine Brawl's game balance.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

only a small portion? wow >.>

 

[Ryazan]

I'm just saying, instead of keeping this discussion open to the public and giving yourself the burden of repelling those too inexperienced to discuss this, you should simply discuss this with the BRoomers.

 

[WastingPenguins]

What Yuna is saying is that MANY people in the public ARE experienced and skilled enough to discuss Brawl's game balance. There are tons and tons of tourney-level Smashers who aren't part of the back room. Therefore this thread serves its purpose just fine here in the public forum-- as long as there are knowledgeable Smashers (e.g. Yuna or other backroomers) to set someone straight if they are speaking falsely, usually from inexperience.i

 

[Ryazan]

I guess I just value efficiency too much.

 

[Samochan]

I'm just saying, instead of keeping this discussion open to the public and giving yourself the burden of repelling those too inexperienced to discuss this, you should simply discuss this with the BRoomers.

Shame Yuna's not a smash back roomer either but just a back roomer. They're 2 different things.

And that would be just dumb, how fun it would be if only a handful of people were allowed to discuss things as opposed to whole smash community? Just that those people who know what they're talking about can talk, and those who don't only make fool out of themselves by chit chatting nonsense which is not our fault. It's our job then to prove them wrong, otherwise they and their friends actually start believing in that "snake sucks cause I can beat my buddy's snake with X char" or something else. >_> information is useless as long as you won't share it with others.

 

[Zankoku]

I guess I just value efficiency too much.

It wouldn't be efficient at all. The Smash Back Room is pretty small and doesn't really need to spend its time discussing things like game balance unless there's something that legitimately threatens it to the point of being broken. Things like balance are better discussed by the public, though people who don't have much experience in the tournament environment should not make assumptions based on what it consists of.

 

[Ryazan]

What exactly do they talk about in there? And don't be like UndrDog and say "now THAT is a secret..."

 

[Fabrian]

they talk about all the johns they feel makes them better people

 

[Yuna]

The SBR was pretty dead back when I had access (since revoked due to inactivity and I have yet to receive renewed membership). As in there wasn't much activity. Of course, that was before Brawl was announced and the boards were flooded by new users so who knows, maybe there's a whole flurry of acitivity going on in there by users who used to frequent the "normal" boards.

Anyway, not much happened in the SBR. Only "really important" stuff was discussed like what should be banned, what shouldn't (when such discussions were needed) and what the tierlist should be (when a tierlist was being voted on). And that was it.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Captain Falcon ends the topic here.
Arguably one of the few characters who are not competitively viable at all.
Even link from melee was competitively viable and in Brawl he really cannot compete dspite the fac thtat many agree with him being low tier material again.

As such this points out brawl is indeed less balanced since a character who is low tier again has a much greater gap to cross in order to compete with top tier characters.

Pichu, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, and (with one exception) Mewtwo/Bowser say hi. That doesn't prove much unless you compare Falcon's fail in Brawl to the previously named characters in Melee.

 

[Yuna]

Pichu, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, and (with one exception) Mewtwo/Bowser say hi. That doesn't prove much unless you compare Falcon's fail in Brawl to the previously named characters in Melee.

Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and (except maybe against a Wario who actually lets himself be grabbed by Yoshi) Yoshi fail on a much deeper level than Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu, Ness, Mewtwo and Bowser ever did.

 

[Ryazan]

Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and (except maybe against a Wario who actually lets himself be grabbed by Yoshi) Yoshi fail on a much deeper level than Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu, Ness, Mewtwo and Bowser ever did.

Absolute truth right there.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Pichu, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, and (with one exception) Mewtwo/Bowser say hi. That doesn't prove much unless you compare Falcon's fail in Brawl to the previously named characters in Melee.

You've never seen Dire's(or Chu's) Game & Watch, Simna's Ness or KDJ's Pichu have you? Im not bringing them up to say "These single players show Melee is balanced" im bringing them up because they use bottom tier characters against the highest level players in the world and are still able to compete. This is because, believe it or not, in Melee, even bottom tier was competitively viable to a point.

 

[St. Viers]

they were viable to a very limited point, but a much higher viablility than g-dorf/capfal in brawl >_<

 

[Fawriel]

Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and (except maybe against a Wario who actually lets himself be grabbed by Yoshi) Yoshi fail on a much deeper level than Mr. Game & Watch, Pichu, Ness, Mewtwo and Bowser ever did.

I'll have to disagree about Yoshi. He's not as vulnerable as the other two, which gives him a higher chance to survive long enough to get some hits in, he can approach somewhat and people have discovered a sort of Yoshi-exclusive pseudo-wavedash that is terribly hard to use but could allow for him to land an fsmash more easily if mastered.

 

[Yuna]

I'll have to disagree about Yoshi. He's not as vulnerable as the other two, which gives him a higher chance to survive long enough to get some hits in, he can approach somewhat and people have discovered a sort of Yoshi-exclusive pseudo-wavedash that is terribly hard to use but could allow for him to land an fsmash more easily if mastered.

His recovery is still one of the worst in the game, he still can't jump out of his shield and he lost out on a lost with the removal of DJC. He's "down there" for a reason.

 

[ChewyChase]

Instead of arguing whether Brawl is balanced moreso than Melee, we talk about just how far ANY game can be 'balanced' and is it even possible to balance anything perfectly? (or near it, for that matter)


@ anyone who thinks Snake is balanced...
Snake is horribly imbalanced, I DO know a good snake player, he's probably not that good in retrospect to the best snakes, but he beats the snot out of my Sonic 70% of the time. I'm a competitive Marth/Link from Melee and I think I know balance when I see it. The 'snakedash' glitch lets him move as fast as he needs to also, so movement speed is not a disadvantage, attack speed isn't either, down throw works great for Fsmash. What is a counter for Snake? You tell me.

In Melee, I could play with Pikachu for fun and I was able to win every once and a while when opponents were really trying.

In Brawl, I can't play anyone for fun because you will almost every time if your opponent doesn't screw up or kill himself somehow.

 

[Yuna]

Instead of arguing whether Brawl is balanced moreso than Melee, we talk about just how far ANY game can be 'balanced' and is it even possible to balance anything perfectly? (or near it, for that matter)

The Guilty Gear XX-series, like GGXX#R(eload), where the bottom tiers, Chip, May and Anji were able to win the largest tournament in Japan. I'm not 100% sure that they all managed to win it at one point or another, May did. I think Anji did. Chip, maybe.

But they every single character had the ability to. It all came down to individual matchups and even then the bottom tiers could still win and win entire tournaments.

 

[Frown]

Instead of arguing whether Brawl is balanced moreso than Melee, we talk about just how far ANY game can be 'balanced' and is it even possible to balance anything perfectly? (or near it, for that matter)


@ anyone who thinks Snake is balanced...
Snake is horribly imbalanced, I DO know a good snake player, he's probably not that good in retrospect to the best snakes, but he beats the snot out of my Sonic 70% of the time. I'm a competitive Marth/Link from Melee and I think I know balance when I see it. The 'snakedash' glitch lets him move as fast as he needs to also, so movement speed is not a disadvantage, attack speed isn't either, down throw works great for Fsmash. What is a counter for Snake? You tell me.

In Melee, I could play with Pikachu for fun and I was able to win every once and a while when opponents were really trying.

In Brawl, I can't play anyone for fun because you will almost every time if your opponent doesn't screw up or kill himself somehow.

Have you heard of Starcraft?

Now THAT'S balance perfection.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

His recovery is still one of the worst in the game, he still can't jump out of his shield and he lost out on a lost with the removal of DJC. He's "down there" for a reason.

Ike: AETHER!!!
PT/Squirtle: water gun!!!!
Ike: ****!!!
...death...
lol

Anyway is this why Yoshi is at the bottom, or is their more to it than that? i would like for someone to tell me more about Yoshi being bad other than for what Yuna said since he doesn't seem so bad to me.

 

[Yuna]

Ike: AETHER!!!
PT/Squirtle: water gun!!!!
Ike: ****!!!
...death...
lol

Anyway is this why Yoshi is at the bottom, or is their more to it than that? i would like for someone to tell me more about Yoshi being bad other than for what Yuna said since he doesn't seem so bad to me.

I wasn't aware of Water Gun being able to hit Ike out of Aether. Also, whatever happened to DI?

Meanwhile, Yoshi is bottom tier for a myriad of reasons. One of the game's very worst recoveries is just one of them.

 

[Zankoku]

It doesn't hit Ike out of Aether, it pushes him out of range of the stage.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I wasn't aware of Water Gun being able to hit Ike out of Aether. Also, whatever happened to DI?

Meanwhile, Yoshi is bottom tier for a myriad of reasons. One of the game's very worst recoveries is just one of them.

tether recoverers like Ivysaur aren't exactly the best recoveries either. i want to know the other reasons Yoshi is at the bottom too. also i don't think you can DI at Aethers max height while being hit by water gun or FLUDD.

 

[Dark Sonic]

tether recoverers like Ivysaur aren't exactly the best recoveries either. i want to know the other reasons Yoshi is at the bottom too. also i don't think you can DI at Aethers max height while being hit by water gun or FLUDD.

You could also just sweetspot the ledge.

And I don't think Yoshi's recovery is the worst, I think that definately goes to Ivysuar.
But then again, I haven't fought many Yoshi's anyway.

 

[payasofobia]

I'm sure that watergun doesnt work on ike if he properly sweetspots the edge with aether.

EDIT: after proper testing on training, i came to the conclusion that ike is indeed screwed if the opponent uses watergun or FLUDD, unless he uses aether on a very small area and pushes the control stick towards the satge like there was no tomorrow.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm sure that watergun doesnt work on ike if he properly sweetspots the edge with aether.

But why would you let Ike get to the edge?

Eh, eh?

Smooth Criminal