Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[[TSON]]

They're vbrawl speed.

Brawl+ had them sped up. Might be hitlag or something, but they seem way slower.

 

[CountKaiser]

You're nuts.

Throws have no hitlag to speak of. You're fooling yourself.

 

[thesage]

Actually I think D-throw's speed is affected by hitlag since it's like a multihit move type thing. IDK

I do know that Ness' throw speed is affected by how heavy the character being thrown is. Compare b-throwing jigglypuff to b-throwing ddd. (this happened in melee too...)

Anybody going to e-mail me cape's test build? My e-mail is on the previous page. I don't really want to leave that up...

 

[CountKaiser]

I set up a link for it, you lazy *******.

http://www.filefront.com/14949387/GSH1118.rar

 

[thesage]

y thank you

Comments on changes.

- Fair final hit back to vBrawl settings

Good, my major problem with the original fair were the weak hits not being safe on hit lol.

- D throw has a lower angle
- U throw has less base and a quicker IASA

You made d-throw a tech chaser and made u-throw the combo throw? That sets up for uair combos better and might be gayer than the current throw set since it makes it so Ness always has a combo from a grab now... At least before you had to guess if you could cg or aerial after the d-throw. I haven't actually played this set so I'll test it out and see just how well u-throw combos.

- upB winddown speed up changed to 150% from 500%

But I liked to 0-death Samus with pkt lol.

- DownB is smaller, weaker, lower angle, and has refreshable Super armor

Ness might still be able to stall with this against characters with low range or slow... =/

- SideB has more hitlag and SDI while locked into the stream of fire

I still think side-b's damage should be nerfed rather than increasing the sdi-ability of it. But you need to make sure it doesn't **** Bowser so... IDK...

I like the general changes though. I still wish hitstun was further reduced and characters fell faster, but I like melee so =/

 

[[TSON]]

O btw i think 150 is fine but 175 would be even nicer :V

 

[thesage]

Actually I was thinking about Ness' fair and I remember the reason I wanted the last hit to be changed is that it didn't combo some people. Now I realize that was a stupid mistake since you could Ken combo some. =/

This is going to need a lot of testing.

 

[RPGsFTW]

So what is the general consensus on Cape's Nightly Ness? Hopefully he isn't ridiculously good like in RC1?

I can't say much, because I've only been playing with computers at the moment. I'll get to test with my friends closer towards the weekend though. That, and I have a tournament this Sunday, and I hope to works out well for it.

 

[thesage]

Last hit of fair would still need some retweaking to ensure it doesn't Ken combo, unless you guys want to leave that in.... =/

 

[GHNeko]

Ken Combo = Marth.

Get your own combos. >:V

 

[[TSON]]

Cape said he didn't want shanus's fix :V

 

[CountKaiser]

What's wrong with shanus' fix?

Still to combo friendly? I personally don't mind it that much.

I don't think it'd be unbalanced if ness could easily get momentum going, since he loses said momentum just as easily. He has a hard time getting out of juggles, he is easier to combo than the average floaty, and once he's off stage, he's essentially dead unless he zap jumps fair, which is his only saving grace when he's recovering.

Though my friends still hate ness and feel him unfair because when I do get momentum going, I keep it going for quite a while. In one long string, I can match 2 or 3 of their BnBs.

Also, my friend thinks Ness's fair in Cape's build is worse than MK's fair in vBrawl.

 

[JCaesar]

Not to sound nitpicky but...

He has a hard time getting out of juggles, he is easier to combo than the average floaty

How do you figure? It seems to me he can escape juggles and combos just fine for his floatiness, with his quick nair/fair and his stalling punish-proof down-B.

and once he's off stage, he's essentially dead unless he zap jumps fair, which is his only saving grace when he's recovering.

Once he's off stage, ROB is essentially dead unless he up-Bs, which is his only saving grace when he's recovering.

It's part of his current arsenal. You can't discount it. Zap jump is pretty **** useful.

Though my friends still hate ness and feel him unfair because when I do get momentum going, I keep it going for quite a while. In one long string, I can match 2 or 3 of their BnBs.

No offense to your friends but they aren't exactly tournament players. Their whining doesn't count for much.



I don't know enough about Ness to take a side on who's fix is better.

 

[[TSON]]

Shanus's fix is more fun, and fixes the problem.
Cape's fix fixes the problem, but creates another one.

Hmmm.

 

[thesage]

Shanus' build doesn't address pk fire and psi magnet stalling, which break some matchups.

Cape's build only problems are that fair can ken combo some characters and the throw stuff I mentioned earlier.

IMO final hit of fair should just be a gtfo/spacing move that has set knockback and 100% doesn't combo into other moves. Just make sure it doesn't set up for edgeguard too well...

JCaeser: Ness for some odd reason is really easy to combo. He had this attribute in melee as well. He just gets a lot of histun or something idk... He's really fun to combo in melee though. If I ever meet a Ness in tournament I'd go Fox. U-throw to uair to uair to uair to uair. =D

Also unlike Rob's Up-b, Ness' dj is also part of how he moves on stage. If your hit offstage after/while you djc or zap jump your essentially ****ed since pkt2 recovery is worse than in melee and you can't even sweespot the edge at certain angles or ride walls. His recovery if he still has his dj is amazing, but without it it's terrible. I think his recovery is balanced now...

 

[[TSON]]

OK but why not use Shanus's fair since that's the focus of his build really -.-

 

[shanus]

Sage, cape's fair shouldn't ken combo people who DI properly.

The main problem with Cape's ness build is the super armor on psi magnet.

The momentum boost that it gives when in the air off stage can more often than not put you in a severely dangerous position (i.e. under the stage)

I'd rather just remove it, and say that Ness is peachy keen.

 

[CountKaiser]

Not to sound nitpicky but...

No problem

How do you figure? It seems to me he can escape juggles and combos just fine for his floatiness, with his quick nair/fair and his stalling punish-proof down-B.

I mean cape's ness, not the other one with silly downB.

After playing mario and ness, I've concluded that Ness does indeed stay in hitstun a bit longer than Mario, and thus easier to combo,

Nair does make for a nice string-breaker. Juggles, however, nair isn't that great, since it doesn't cover below Ness well. Fair for escaping combos is too slow, and I don't know how it would work for escaping juggles.

Once he's off stage, ROB is essentially dead unless he up-Bs, which is his only saving grace when he's recovering.

It's part of his current arsenal. You can't discount it. Zap jump is pretty **** useful.

I never did discount it. I stated that zap jump allows ness to recovery.

However, there is a vast difference between ROB's and Ness's upB recoveries. ROB's is much better than ness's, and ROB has more control over where he goes. Ness, not so much. With his zap jump, he can certainly make it back to the stage, but if he were to be whacked off again, Ness is dead. Not necessarily true with ROB.

No offense to your friends but they aren't exactly tournament players. Their whining doesn't count for much.

Blah, I guessed as much. Still annoying to hear them whine, though.

 

[[TSON]]

Capes ness does have the silly downb

 

[JCaesar]

Cape's down-B has super armor.

 

[GHNeko]

Why not heavy armor?

 

[[TSON]]

Iono, maybe cause it would be gay?

 

[thesage]

Sage, cape's fair shouldn't ken combo people who DI properly.

I was able to Ken combo Meep's Marth with the old fair consistently and he was able to di out of pk fire before it got nerfed. Meep is a much better player than me.

The main problem with Cape's ness build is the super armor on psi magnet.

The momentum boost that it gives when in the air off stage can more often than not put you in a severely dangerous position (i.e. under the stage)

It can also push you onto the stage =P

 

[GHNeko]

So you're saying heavy armor is gayer than super armor?


lolwut

 

[[TSON]]

No, I'm saying armor of any sort is sillier than normal collision and is super homosexual on a reflector and it should be normal.

EDIT: noarmal.

 

[The Cape]

Its a no damage push with a hitbox about the size of the downB (now) and the super armor (when working properly) allows it to be a counter attack which gives it a useful and non broken use.

As for the Ness fair it works fine if you DI down and away and should not have many free follow ups (its also the vBrawl default angle). And yes, you can DI out of RC1 Fair, as you can this one as the weak hits were never changed. The last hit is the only change and should not combo as well as you all claim (and didnt when I was playing with Caesar this afternoon)

 

[[TSON]]

Ness:
- Fair final hit back to vBrawl settings
oh ok but why. shanus's fix was fine. Now the ability to DI out of this move is nullified because it's high risk tiny reward as it's been shrunk. and then with this change you go and nerf a whole bunch of other things that were only broken because they setup into fair...

- D throw has a lower angle
-_-
If you're going to nerf fair like that then making dthrow a crappy techchase setup (ness can't do that babe) is pointless because we can't do anything out of it that would combo further than using one move anyways

- U throw has less base and a quicker IASA
Unneeded buff

- upB winddown speed up changed to 150% from 500%
k

- DownB is smaller, weaker, lower angle, and has refreshable Super armor
k

- SideB has more hitlag and SDI while locked into the stream of fire
pointless since you nerfed fair which was the only reason anyone ever used this slow-*** move

That being said this is a low point, so next build will probably be broken again amirite

 

[shanus]

Did you just say ness can't tech chase?


uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[thesage]

Ness is really good at tech chasing. =D

I understand what cape did wtih the throws now and i support it.

Psi Magnet will be a cool combo breaker.

 

[[TSON]]

Ness can't tech chase if the foe is sent a decent distance before they tech, and that's what dthrow does if you have more than 30% >_>

 

[[TSON]]

Its a no damage push with a hitbox about the size of the downB (now) and the super armor (when working properly) allows it to be a counter attack which gives it a useful and non broken use.

Doesn't super armor = hitlag = autosnap?

 

[Dajayman]

Nessticles.

 

[[TSON]]

Delish.

10minutemeals

 

[CountKaiser]

Is it me, or is side B useless?

Whenever I hit someone with it, rarely am I able to combo out of it. Most of the time the victim is able to jump out and nair out of it to keep themselves safe.

And this is critique from my friends using it, who don't even know what SDI is. I imagine against someone who does know what SDI is, it wouldn't even be worth the trouble.

Also, about uthrow, is it useful against people other than ffers now? I haven't really tried it, as I am in the habit of using dthrow.

And if dthrow sends people too far away, give it DDD dthrow stats.

Anyway, what is the general consensus on Ness?

 

[GHNeko]

Needs more ME.

<3333

 

[Revven]

Needs less "this needs to be fixed" and needs moar "time to learn Ness" kthx.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I heard ness has been nerfed significantly since 4.1. What's going on? Help a PAL user out here.

 

[GHNeko]

I heard ness has been nerfed significantly since 4.1. What's going on? Help a PAL user out here.

You obviously missed the 5.0 RC1 fiasco.

 

[PKNintendo]

Eh I'm pretty happy with the new Ness. My main problem is that PK Fire is utterly useless. Landing Flash is harder than ever.

Even though it was supposed to be scheduled a speed buff that was turned down. to compromise I say we
increase the size to 2.0

 

[CountKaiser]

I was able to force a Falco to SideB into a fully charged PK Flash at BtL2 during a crews match.

As it is now, I don't think PK Flash needs to be much bigger, or any bigger at all. It's be silly if people were killed by it almost all the time.

Besides, even if a size buff were to go through, 2.0 is absurd. An increase of 1.7 as opposed to 1.5 seems more reasonable.

Although I agree about PK Fire, that move is now useless.