Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

Okay

From what I can tell, with perfect SDI, the victim of PK fire will take a minimum of 6 damage. That's the initial hit and the one right after it. With ASDI, the pillar will hit the victim 4 times, maybe 3 if they're lucky. That's 10 damage.

As for frame advantage, at maximum range, using perfect SDI, ness as a -4 frame advantage on hit, meaning that the opponent can so something 4 frames before ness can even put up his shield. For point blank range, frame advantage is -9. Using asdi, the frame advantage at max range is +13. At point blank, using asdi, the advantage is +16 or so.

With all of these tests, there's an error margin of about 5 or so frames, as PK fire can act very oddly depending on where it hits. Still, this shows that it is nigh useless now.

For ****s and giggles, I estimated the time it took for ness to run the length of PK fire. It's about 27 frames.

The frame advantage is highly dependent upon whether or not the opponent is hit twice or 3 times, though the difference it makes is hardly practical.

 

[shanus]

Nice information Kaiser. This sums up points pretty well on PK fire.

Even if the opponent HOLDS to ASDI out, jump start + Fair start-up lag makes it physically impossible to follow-up whatsoever.


So PK Fire now is 6 or 10 damage and only a spacing move. I think this is somewhat unacceptable, especially if you hit with it up and close and are now at a frame disadvantage *on hit*.

The pillar / damage racking either needs to be higher, or endlag lowered and startup lag raised (still my favorite solution). Or other stuff.


Either way, nice stuff Kaiser.

 

[PKNintendo]

I say we go back to Shanus' orignal PK fire buff!

/brown nosing.

 

[The Cape]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg&feature=related

Yea!

 

[[TSON]]

lol that video is some douchebaggery

 

[ChaosKnight]

obviously who cares about gimpyfish >_>

 

[CountKaiser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltqgP-Xgceg&feature=related

Yea!

What is this supposed to be in response to?

 

[[TSON]]

For GSH2 patch1:

1.35 SDI on fair-multi-hits, 0.8 size last hitbox, and slightly weakened tradeoff for better comboing angle on fair?
1.2 SDI for angle 180 hit1 and angle 270 pillar hits on PK fire?
Yoshi-Dthrow stats (Bad DI can be uaired to death, Good DI still tech chases or fair-chases lol)?

I'm running this by you now so that I can fix whatever doesn't sound good before giving the pac to Cape.

EDIT: Considering lowering SDI to 1.15 and making fair smaller (0.8 size). Opinions?

EDIT2:
Decided on this:

1.05x size first effect, hitbox sized accordingly, hits at angle 180, 1.5 SDI.
1.4x SDI on fair linking hits and size 0.8x
1 SDI on final hit, 1.15 hitlag, angle 57, weakened greatly.

Angle 180 on PK Fire projectile hit
2.0x SDI on PK Fire pillar with angle 270, 2.0x SDI on PK Fire pillar with angle 153 (THIS IS WHEN YOU DI)

Dthrow is gonna be done by cape.

 

[CountKaiser]

EDIT2:
Decided on this:

1.05x size first effect, hitbox sized accordingly, hits at angle 180, 1.5 SDI.
1.4x SDI on fair linking hits and size 0.8x
1 SDI on final hit, 1.15 hitlag, angle 57, weakened greatly.

Angle 180 on PK Fire projectile hit
2.0x SDI on PK Fire pillar with angle 270, 2.0x SDI on PK Fire pillar with angle 153 (THIS IS WHEN YOU DI)

Dthrow is gonna be done by cape.

So wait, on fair you want

1.4 SDI on weak hits, 0.8x size
1 SDI on final hit, 1.15 hitlag, 57 degree angle

Or did you want to add a third hitbox at the begining of the move with
1.05 size hitbox, 1.05 size Graphic, 180 angle, 1.5 SDI

You're description is confusing me.

And I can't test PK fire, I suck at hex editing.

 

[shanus]

1.4 SDI would be mammoth. You would SDI out in a flash. If i remember correctly from when i was toying with SDI capacity on fair, even at 1.1 you can ASDI out easily.

 

[[TSON]]

That strange seeing as how before RC1 it was at 1.5 SDI...

I'll do 1.2 then

 

[[TSON]]

So wait, on fair you want

1.4 SDI on weak hits, 0.8x size
1 SDI on final hit, 1.15 hitlag, 57 degree angle

Or did you want to add a third hitbox at the begining of the move with
1.05 size hitbox, 1.05 size Graphic, 180 angle, 1.5 SDI

You're description is confusing me.

And I can't test PK fire, I suck at hex editing.

I took one hit out of the loop and put it at the beginning with those stats.

 

[CountKaiser]

That strange seeing as how before RC1 it was at 1.5 SDI...

I'll do 1.2 then

It was 1.5 because the hitlag was 0.5, which didn't translate well into brawl+ due to the hitlag being reduced to practically nothing, thus allowing no SDI.

And you want 3 types of hitboxes on fair in total, correct?

 

[[TSON]]

Yes.

IGNORE DTHROW AND GIVE CRIT.

http://www.mediafire.com/?4jnymzif1vv

Fair First hitbox angle 180, size 11 with 1.5 SDI.
Fair 3x loop 2nd hitbox, size 8.1, hitlag 0.9, 1.35 SDI
Fair Final hitbox angle 57, 28 KBG, 44 BKB, size 9
PK Fire projectile hit angle 180 with 0.5 SDI
PK Fire pillar hit1 (2 damage hitbox) angle 99, 2x SDI
PK Fire pillar hit2 (1 damage hitbox) angle 270, 2x SDI

PK Fire's DI seems huge, and it is, this is probably how it has to be if you want Cape to accept it though. His plan makes it a defensive projectile to use against other projectiles. This simply makes it less-than-useless offensively. The trajectory on this move is so wacky that SDI will be difficult regardless of 2x. Followups would still probably be easy as long as you DI in the direction sent or DI somewhat upward.

 

[CountKaiser]

I haven't used PK fire much, but I can already tell you, it's more useless than before.

There's no nice way to say this. The PK fire in this pac is ****ing terrible.

The utterly MASSIVE SDI capacity allows people to SDI through the pillar towards ness, if they so wish. Not to mention that anyone who does SDI correctly ends up so far away from the pillar it's hilarious.

Personally, I don't understand why Cape wants PK fire to be defensive against other projectiles, rather than offensively to try and start a string or something.

Reduce the SDI capacity for the pillar hits to 1.1 and see what that does.

Also, what is with the SDI for the first hit of fair? It's way too high, lower it to 1. Lower the SDI of the weak hits to 1 as well. If 1 sounds too low, try 1.1

The last hit of fair needs more KBG. Also, why did you edit the damage of fair? It was 2-2-2-2-3, now it's 3-3-3-3-5. That's 17, and that's way too much. If you want fair to do more damage, try 2-3-3-3-4, since the move now has 3 distinguishable hitboxes.

 

[[TSON]]

I haven't used PK fire much, but I can already tell you, it's more useless than before.

There's no nice way to say this. The PK fire in this pac is ****ing terrible.

The utterly MASSIVE SDI capacity allows people to SDI through the pillar towards ness, if they so wish. Not to mention that anyone who does SDI correctly ends up so far away from the pillar it's hilarious.

OK. I do realized it's overshot a lot, I haven't messed with SDI much before and I don't have a TV open to test = bad pac lol.

Personally, I don't understand why Cape wants PK fire to be defensive against other projectiles, rather than offensively to try and start a string or something.

Reduce the SDI capacity for the pillar hits to 1.1 and see what that does.

Also, what is with the SDI for the first hit of fair? It's way too high, lower it to 1. Lower the SDI of the weak hits to 1 as well. If 1 sounds too low, try 1.1

The weak hits are where the SDI should be at for both fair and PK fire. The whole point of this is to reward you better if you pull off the whole move. 1.1 I will try but 1.2 sounds more like what I'm aiming for.

The last hit of fair needs more KBG. Also, why did you edit the damage of fair? It was 2-2-2-2-3, now it's 3-3-3-3-5. That's 17, and that's way too much. If you want fair to do more damage, try 2-3-3-3-4, since the move now has 3 distinguishable hitboxes.

I think that was GSH2 actually, I didn't do that (on purpose?).



EDIT:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ejma22yl5yd

Projectile hit strengthened, moving hit strengthened (PK Fire)
SDI rebalanced

 

[CountKaiser]

After testing your new PK fire, I can say that it's at least better, though I'm not sure where to go from here. CPUs that get out randomly jump through the flames sometimes. However, it does at least allow for potential follow ups.

Perhaps change the angle to 160 or something similar. Try this for both hitboxes.


EDIT: Actually, since I know how to work with this now, I'll try to come up with something tomorrow.

 

[[TSON]]

After testing your new PK fire, I can say that it's at least better, though I'm not sure where to go from here. CPUs that get out randomly jump through the flames sometimes. However, it does at least allow for potential follow ups.

Perhaps change the angle to 160 or something similar. Try this for both hitboxes.


EDIT: Actually, since I know how to work with this now, I'll try to come up with something tomorrow.

No. This is where I stop. If I continue any further then it has no chance of inclusion.

 

[Alphatron]

No. This is where I stop. If I continue any further then it has no chance of inclusion.

Elaborate por favor?

 

[[TSON]]

(If I continue any further then we have RC1 basically)

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The Silence of No One's PK Fire is pretty alright. You're not going to get much out of it from max range, but point blank, you at least get 8 damage and a possible follow up.

He's pretty solid with it, in my opinion. Tech chasing with it off of a dthrow seems viable with prediction.

Let's not make it a Sub-Zero freeze ball again. xD

 

[[TSON]]

Ignore dthrow I said ._.

It's going to be changed to match Yoshi's GSH2 dthrow.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ah. Didn't see that. My bad.

Even better.

 

[PKNintendo]

Can't wait to see it.

 

[[TSON]]

...See what? It's on the page before this.

 

[PKNintendo]

you misunderstand I was at work then. (I already tried it's really fun)

 

[Deleted member]

Soo.... PK flash is broken. Seriously.

Video soon. It's broken.

 

[Alphatron]

I'd like to see videos of this broken PK Flash.

 

[Deleted member]

My camera just ran outta batteries. Lol, ****.

Anyway, PK flash is spammable. It comes out really quickly and the hitbox is huge. Most of you probably know that; but the applications are awesome. You can dash and do a short hop->flash and you should be behind the person shielding it because of your momentum. I can't really describe every single scenario of how you use sh->flash, but like, just try it out. It's really spammable and safe.

If you want, you can flash over and over again and be very safe while covering a lot of space in the air.

short-hop flash means you flash right after you leave the ground. You shouldn't be in the air at all, really. The hitbox sets up for f-smash and b-air, and other things. The hitbox just keeps you protected. I'll upload 2 videos - one where I realize the spamability and one where I try to harness it a little more intelligently.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

PK flash does NOT "come out really quickly"

You are severely overestimating its safeness.

 

[Veril]

My camera just ran outta batteries. Lol, ****.

Anyway, PK flash is spammable. It comes out really quickly and the hitbox is huge. Most of you probably know that; but the applications are awesome. You can dash and do a short hop->flash and you should be behind the person shielding it because of your momentum.

I don't even know where to start with how wrong this is. It hits on frame 43. You can't lag-cancel it out of a SH and its got a fair amount of ending lag. THIS IS NOT SAFE. I read your post and was like... O.o, then I thought "well maybe I'm wrong and he saw something I didn't." So I went and looked at the move in frame advance a bit.

I could like make myself coffee, have a cigarette, come back and rest you anyway if you tried spamming pkflash. Its very punishable.

 

[PKNintendo]

My camera just ran outta batteries. Lol, ****.

Anyway, PK flash is spammable. It comes out really quickly and the hitbox is huge. Most of you probably know that; but the applications are awesome. You can dash and do a short hop->flash and you should be behind the person shielding it because of your momentum. I can't really describe every single scenario of how you use sh->flash, but like, just try it out. It's really spammable and safe.

If you want, you can flash over and over again and be very safe while covering a lot of space in the air.

short-hop flash means you flash right after you leave the ground. You shouldn't be in the air at all, really. The hitbox sets up for f-smash and b-air, and other things. The hitbox just keeps you protected. I'll upload 2 videos - one where I realize the spamability and one where I try to harness it a little more intelligently.

Maybe your testing out the old PK flash set?

 

[Deleted member]

Uh, no. I'm using GSH2. We did this with d-tilt; you guys called me stupid while I progressed and got better. I'll upload the videos.

 

[[TSON]]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OLHnS460Lg

Thats the only thing that dtilt's good for :I

Everything else got ***** when they tried to nerf its edgeguarding ability.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know what you're referring to in that video. And that is an outdated build. Tell me a time to watch.

D-tilt is an amazing move, especially now that it trips. But hey, don't listen to me, just keep playing theorysmash

First vid in about an hour.

 

[[TSON]]

Oh, you don't remember it? D,:

But dtilt is useless other than for poking at the foe. It has crap range and the endlag is slow (I'm talking real endlag, not jab window) >.>

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjaMo42R51s

Still processing but should be there in 5 min

 

[[TSON]]

woooooooooooah. mind = blown.

Nice bair combo too

 

[CountKaiser]

Dude, I can tell you right now, that set of yours is bugged, MAJORLY.

Not even kidding, PK Flash should not have that little endlag or that big a hitbox. Redownload GSH2.

 

[Deleted member]

Lol...it's GSH2. Trust me.