Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

In order to do that, tson, either

A. damage of the last hit of fair is increased

or

B. Reduce hitlag on fair

Both of which are out of the question.

 

[[TSON]]

In order to do that, tson, either

A. damage of the last hit of fair is increased

or

B. Reduce hitlag on fair

Both of which are out of the question.

What would be wrong with reducing hitlag...?

 

[CountKaiser]

It'd make it unfeasible to SDI the move, as lowered hitlag would only give one or two frames of hitlag for the defender to SDI, leading to people having a hard time escaping.

Also, I'm working on ness's hitboxes. Should I only worry about the new ness, with the fixed fair, or the old one, with the borked fair?

 

[[TSON]]

Grr -_-

I dunno, I just think Marth is too able to gimp, combo, punish, and EDGEGUARD LIKE MAD for that matchup to be fair at all <_>

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, I always saw ness as an all or nothing character.

Either you **** with him, or you don't.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I think:

I dont care if Ness might have an apparent hard time with Marth .....let's not change more stuff beyond the fair/pkt1 fix until we have played and developed the metagame much further.

The way the game is made characters are supposed to have bad matchups....from where im standing Ness has quite few even if Marth is one of them and that might not even be the case when the metagame develops.

 

[CountKaiser]

Simna, when you say quite few, you mean several bad matchups, or few bad matchups?

Sorry, you're wording is confusing me a bit.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Simna is saying that Ness has few bad match-ups.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

quite few=little
quite a few=lots

at least thats what i try to mean

 

[[TSON]]

Quite few?

Link, Marth, Pikachu, Ike, G&W, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Squirtle, ZSS, Samus, and the list goes on. For someone that's supposedly so broken, he sure is shallow. As the metagame develops, he seems less and less broken but more and more stupid.

The fact being is yes, fair is stupid, yes PKT1 is stupid, but they aren't broken. Giving a slight buff when you eat out the only thing keeping him decent (that also makes him broken because WBR lieks2dothat) isn't going to break him again. Learn the balance, yin and yang. Fractions, what you do to one side you must do to the other, etc., etc.

Now's he's back to the lonely emo kid with psycho-kinetic powers who everyone bullies. <_>;

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I disagree with that list of hard matchups.

And balancing fractions has nothing to do with this. That wouldnt even apply if we started with completely balanced characters since different attributes have different values as do different combinations of attributes.

And I think we will find as the metagame develops that Ness isnt being played as good as he should be.

 

[[TSON]]

I disagree with that list of hard matchups.

And balancing fractions has nothing to do with this. That wouldnt even apply if we started with completely balanced characters since different attributes have different values as do different combinations of attributes.

And I think we will find as the metagame develops that Ness isnt being played as good as he should be.

<_>;

The fact of the matter is, there's no halfway point here. It's a big issue. We don't know where to draw the line. Something is added that's super broken, so then they get rid of it, leaving a butt naked Ness with nothing to combat his omgwtfbbq JV 3stock matchups. If we don't have fair then Marth can just chaingrab us with fthrow to get us offstage, fair us 2 times, grab edge, bair during PKT1, and we're dead.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Can Marth really do that? How long can Marth cg Ness?

Also does it mean anything to you that Ness is the only character(Yoshi who?) that can jump into the air and fast fall at just about any time instead of the normal "only after you stop rising?"

Surely that counts for something. DjC is an incredibly powerful offensive technique.

 

[WheelOfFish]

You act like Ness has absolutely nothing without his uber f-air.

Listen to Simna. Let the metagame develop, and you'll probably learn more about Ness than you know after a week of playing with him.

 

[[TSON]]

Can Marth really do that? How long can Marth cg Ness?

I dunno, all I know is it abuses the crap out and if I DI away to get out I get a fair which leads into a Ken Combo -.-

Also does it mean anything to you that Ness is the only character(Yoshi who?) that can jump into the air and fast fall at just about any time instead of the normal "only after you stop rising?"

Now you're making it sound like I'm ignoring DJC. Trust me; I'm not, but if he's getting this wonderful thing(s) that's too wonderful, and the whole build is in sync with that, then you remove the change(s), you're not going to have a good build. You're going to have a fail.



Don't nerf without buffing; don't buff without nerfing.

You act like Ness has absolutely nothing without his uber f-air.

Listen to Simna. Let the metagame develop, and you'll probably learn more about Ness than you know after a week of playing with him.

LITSEN 2 SIMNA HE G0T T3H SK1LLS 'MIRITE GUYS

Yes I do respect him and are listening to him, but I kindly disagree.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

what kind of idea is that? why should anyone pair buffs and nerfs together?

There is no balance that is being maintained. Buff and nerfs are made to try to achieve balance. Pairing them up doesnt do anything constructive.

EDIT: If a character needs a nerf then nerf them and if they need a biff then buff them.... there is no logic behind combining them. And Ness moves werent synched up to work well with the other fair....the other fair worked good simply because of its own attributes...Ness' other, unchanged moves will still be the same as they were

EDIT2: oh you werent saying things were in synch with fair you were saying in ysnch with DjC. The change made to fair still has little effect on DjC....the only thing it changes is DjC fair....and only in the same way that normal fair is changed.

 

[thesage]

No moves were changed to work with djc.... =/

 

[[TSON]]

what kind of idea is that? why should anyone pair buffs and nerfs together?

There is no balance that is being maintained. Buff and nerfs are made to try to achieve balance. Pairing them up doesnt do anything constructive.

EDIT: If a character needs a nerf then nerf them and if they need a biff then buff them.... there is no logic behind combining them. And Ness moves werent synched up to work well with the other fair....the other fair worked good simply because of its own attributes...Ness' other, unchanged moves will still be the same as they were

EDIT2: oh you werent saying things were in synch with fair you were saying in ysnch with DjC. The change made to fair still has little effect on DjC....the only thing it changes is DjC fair....and only in the same way that normal fair is changed.

Pairing them up achieves balance so that you don't drop a load of crap on him, then take the WHOLE PILE back, then put it back on, then take it ALL BACK.

See how stupid that person would look in your mind? No; what we should be doing is taking it all off, then adding it on little by little until we achieve a fine pile of the good stuff. Combining them keeps you from going HERP DERP mentally and shifting between nothing and too much.

When you remove something, don't remove it all at once unless you plan on adding something else to balance it out. Fair was bloody ********, so keep PKT1, etcetc.

EDIT: This is for future reference, this build is alright I think as long as PKT1 stays at a reasonable number. A slight buff wouldn't hurt it but a big buff definitely would.

EDIT1: I was talking about fair + PKT1 respectively.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

the combination of pkt1 and fair wasnt the problem.....each move was too good separately

and your reason for pairing them up(buffs and nerfs) is to solve a problem that doesnt exist. If giving Ness the fair he got in 5.0 was the "load of crap" on him then certainly this new fair isnt taking the whole pile back since fair isnt going back to how it was....its still an improvement over where it was before, just less so. Same with pkt1....the speed increase is being reduced, not removed.

And when you say slight buff for pkt1 do you mean a buff from the 5.0 pkt1 or a buff from shanus' test build? If you are talking about a buff from the test build then its still a nerf from 5.0 on both fair and pkt1......no buff paired in here....that isnt okay?

 

[thesage]

Pkt definitely needs to be nerfed if you can juggle samus 0-death with it. Even though it's fun as **** to do...

 

[[TSON]]

Pkt definitely needs to be nerfed if you can juggle samus 0-death with it. Even though it's fun as **** to do...

ok but going from 500 to 125 is overkill like no other

the combination of pkt1 and fair wasnt the problem.....each move was too good separately

and your reason for pairing them up(buffs and nerfs) is to solve a problem that doesnt exist. If giving Ness the fair he got in 5.0 was the "load of crap" on him then certainly this new fair isnt taking the whole pile back since fair isnt going back to how it was....its still an improvement over where it was before, just less so. Same with pkt1....the speed increase is being reduced, not removed.

Im gonna repeat myself for emphasis, taking away 475% speed on a move because it juggles a character is overkill like no other. Taking away 300% is at least understandable. But anyways now we have an all or nothing character where we would need to rely on pkt1 since approaching with fair they can SDI out and punish (YES I'VE TRIED THE NEW BUILD AND THAT HAPPENS A LOT), approaching with nair they can DI down and tech and punish, approaching with uair is fail, and approaching with bair's craptastic range isn't a good idea either.

And when you say slight buff for pkt1 do you mean a buff from the 5.0 pkt1 or a buff from shanus' test build? If you are talking about a buff from the test build then its still a nerf from 5.0 on both fair and pkt1......no buff paired in here....that isnt okay?

Both of the buffs got ***** up the *** tho... We take broken fair and give it 1.5 SDI or w/e and now foes can escape whenever the hell they want and punish you, then you give it a bunch of growth at high %s so we can't use it to combo on TOP of the SDI, then you make it smaller, THEN, you go over to PKT1 and take four hundred seventy-five percent speed off of it. What the hell. Now what are we supposed to do. Approach with bair? DJC fair? Well if they SDI and DI up out of DJC fair, you can't get to them with anything but PKT1, which doesn't combo into anything anymore. Bair has ****tastic range too.

I know characters have weaknesses, but now he has no approach, little to no high % combos, and a bunch more bad matchups, some of the bad ones becoming even worse.

Slurp derp spam moar pk fire and get punished.

Pkt definitely needs to be nerfed if you can juggle samus 0-death with it. Even though it's fun as **** to do...

Yes I agree.

BUT ALMOST ALL OF THE SPEEDUP WAS REMOVED.
Yes, I could stand doing away with the majority of the speedup, but we're basically back at vBrawl speed and are stuck in the dark now...

EDIT: imma stop revolting and say 2x speed pkt1 pls

 

[leafgreen386]

Let's take another look at what the difference between a x5 and a x2 speedup even is.

What do you need tested out?

Frame data from vbrawl:

PK thunder

Start up: 18
Hits: 19
Ends: 73

I assume if endlag was sped up 150% then... it would end in 41 frames after pkt hits something. I got that from (54/4) x 3 rounded up.

From...
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=52871


I'll see if I can get some testing in brawl+ done some time this week. I've been really busy practicing melee during any free time I have for smash. I'll try and do it 2morrow.

A default lag of 54 frames. Only 11 frames with a 500% speedup (1/5) and 27 frames at 200% speed (1/2). A 125% (4/5) speedup leaves it with 45 frames of lag. 150% (2/3) would give 36 frames of lag (not 41 like thesage said). 175% (4/7) would give 31 frames of lag.

I don't think it's necessary to go any higher than 175%, or possibly even 150%.

 

[[TSON]]

a 1.75 is fine too

 

[leafgreen386]

a 1.75 is fine too

Or a 1.5 amirite

There's a drastic difference between 1.5 and 1.25, so I'm thinking try that one first. These speedups give a much bigger effect than they let on, and a "small" 1.5x speedup will cut out a third of the lag.

 

[thesage]

I thought a 150% reduced lag by 1/2 the original value. Sorry for the miscalculation.

I was thinking 41 frames of lag would be fine but IDK. 36 may be balanced. Pkt needs to be tested in actual play since it's really dependent on di and player's actions.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I think 150% is a good spot. We should do that. Ya know....let the metagame develop...

Let people come up with new strats and figure out new ways to play.

 

[ChaosKnight]

http://www.justin.tv/ck_kuroii

brawl+

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

I liked when ChaosKnight was using uncharged pk flash....it made me happy

 

[[TSON]]

Uncharged is risky and doesn't really have any good followups.....?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

use at higher percent....it has like every followup

also make sure to use on the ground....aerial pk flash has more lag

EDIT: but yeah its risky lol

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Shanus whats new? should we test 150% speed?

Any news?

 

[AvariceX]

Just thought I'd drop in and say 500-125 is 375, not 475

Ness+ still *****...though I'm starting to find that Falcon is probably his (or my own) worst matchup.... yes I'm serious

 

[[TSON]]

lol what

Marth is way worse lol.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

imo falcon is one of the characters in B+ that has a good bit of metagame that isnt being used yet

 

[CountKaiser]

Hey, question.

Is anyone familiar with cape's build of brawl+?

It has quite a few changes, and some significant changes to ness.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=GG7AP9Y3

Take a look and try it out. He included a readme in there as well.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

is that the newest one with the glitch fixes? the most recent one he posted?


edit: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Dedede is freezing with his latest set. >:O

 

[CountKaiser]

No it isn't.

http://www.filefront.com/14949387/GSH1118.rar

That is.

 

[[TSON]]

ew fair revert without disjoint.

if you gonna revert at least do it wrong.

:V

edit: why did he slow down the throws...

 

[CountKaiser]

He slowed down the throws? THey didn't seem slow to me.

 

[thesage]

Can somebody upload it to a free filesharing site that doesn't have a limit on downloads per day? I go to college and use a shared network...

Or e-mail it to me at akjsfdkljasdlkfj