Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[iLink]

Alright I don't have my wii with me atm to test this but what change was made to falco's reflector?

I'm ok with the laser nerf, I mainly use it for pressure and to interrupt so the damage output wasn't a big deal for me.

 

[Dan_X]

I agree that the shine as a set-up isn't entirely needed though it'd be cool. However, I think it'd be nice if his shine was sped up a bit, namely the cooldown.

I'm ok with the laser nerf, I mainly use it for pressure and to interrupt so the damage output wasn't a big deal for me.

I use the laser for the same purpose, however, every little bit of damage helps. I'm not sure the nerf was needed.

 

[CountKaiser]

Is there any good reason why Ike was removed from the fall special code? His recovery was horribly gimpable to start with, and this buff to his recovery balanced him out and actually made me want to play him. It certainly doesn't make him OP, from what I can tell.

Also, the down B codes, they were removed because people complained that Falcon didn't need a buff to his recovery, right? While he may not need it, Ganon could use it. Any way we could make it affect him only?

 

[goodoldganon]

Is there any good reason why Ike was removed from the fall special code? His recovery was horribly gimpable to start with, and this buff to his recovery balanced him out and actually made me want to play him. It certainly doesn't make him OP, from what I can tell.

Also, the down B codes, they were removed because people complained that Falcon didn't need a buff to his recovery, right? While he may not need it, Ganon could use it. Any way we could make it affect him only?

Ganon is getting the Down-b jump code in the latest, or at least we are testing it out with him. Also on the case of Ike, there is a difference between buffing a weakpoint and eliminating it. I agree that Ike may be a little too gimpable right now but the solution to the problem wasn't giving him a recovery that could go down and around Smashville.

 

[Me_Aludes]

Lucario's a mid-heavy character who comboes way too easy, kills ok, has good aerial movement and gets stronger with the %. Why have you guys buff his recovery?

I mean, I've talked with Lucario mains and they agreed recent changes are a bit to much.

 

[Caleb Wolfbrand]

is it too much to make the Falco reflector do the same angle as it does right now, but no hitstun? please? cause that's what is important to me. I don't want to start combos with it, but if you make it hit like it used to (angle) then it is back to being useless. Jeeze, while you're at it, make his lasers do no hitstun. He doesn't need it...

surprises me to hear people complain about Falco yet Snake is still Snake lol, oh well. hope SOMETHING is done with Falco's down B, make it have a higher set knockback or something but lordy please don't take that angle away.

 

[JCaesar]

When this new build with the frivolous changes removed comes out, I'm probably gonna use that one as the official codeset for the Brawl+ tourney at Apex.

No more buffs for good characters plz.

 

[shanus]

When this new build with the frivolous changes removed comes out, I'm probably gonna use that one as the official codeset for the Brawl+ tourney at Apex.

No more buffs for good characters plz.

JCaes, I have it in on the BR testing folder online. Still being tweaked, but a big improvement thus far. Hop on IRC later.

 

[Eight 52]

Would there be anyway to throw down a larger cool down time on Ike's side B so it could be used to recover but not go all the way around smashville?

 

[shanus]

Would there be anyway to throw down a larger cool down time on Ike's side B so it could be used to recover but not go all the way around smashville?

Yeah, its an idea we are toying with. In its current state, its ridiculously good. You could full hop---> sideB ---> dair (from far out from the level) ----> jump -----> upB and live. You could alsoe side B out--->side B in--> upB go under smashville, and more lol

I'd wish I could just make it so he could only sideB once in the air, that would fix it a lot better lol

 

[Eight 52]

Yeah, its an idea we are toying with. In its current state, its ridiculously good. You could full hop---> sideB ---> dair (from far out from the level) ----> jump -----> upB and live. You could alsoe side B out--->side B in--> upB go under smashville, and more lol

I'd wish I could just make it so he could only sideB once in the air, that would fix it a lot better lol

Maybe you could make a code that only let's you upB after the side b.

 

[shanus]

New nightly set now online – a lot more polishing and removal of lots of unneeded stuff

 

[Plum]

I can kind of agree with Kuga. Falco's Shine change is BA, no doubt but I'm not sure Falco really needs it. He is a very, very solid character already. Falco has to bait into his setups and he uses the Laser to pressure the opponent into that mistake. Now he can just throw his shine out there as another pressure tool. It almost always sets up right into a grab from my experience. D-throw to U-smash works a lot there too. I can't make a stance one way or another till I try it out more, just giving initial thoughts.

Wolf is a very average character and though the shine isn't going to make him start running tournaments, it is a HUGE tool in the hands of a skilled Wolf player. The question is, do average characters deserve buffs for being average?

Overall, both changes would need a whole lot of testing. We have seen a lot of heat for changing the way certain moves originally functioned (Sonic's U-smash) so we need to be careful about how we approach this. Speeding up moves or increasing their knockback is one thing, but it a whole nother playing field when you change the way a move functions at it's core. (inB4 DS) My initial impressions are this:

Falco is a great character without the Shine changes. He doesn't need it. Besides, he gives up the shine's usefulness by trying to be a badass with it and kick it. Wolf, on the other hand, is very average. Such a simple change surely made Wolf a much bigger threat, but the question is: Do average characters deserve buffs? If so there are a lot of average characters that are gonna need work soon.

Average characters do need buffs, though doing it now is where there might be problems.

There is going to be a lot of complaints when a character that is technically fine gets buffs while "insert character here" is still doing poorly overall.

There are characters that need more attention than Wolf, so I would say get them out of the way for now, and while you wait to see how their changes fold out go around and work small tweaks for the average characters to give them what they need to stand out in gameplay.

Not to mention that there are other things that should be more important than character tweaks. Going back and adjusting character specific values and reworking the grav values now that we know so much more about how these values impact play for example should be done. For all we know, "X" character might be better off with proper physics and tweaks to them don't need to be as drastic.

 

[JacobWins]

Found 1000+ lines and only ~425 allowed.

halp me derp?

 

[GPDP]

Average characters do need buffs, though doing it now is where there might be problems.

There is going to be a lot of complaints when a character that is technically fine gets buffs while "insert character here" is still doing poorly overall.

There are characters that need more attention than Wolf, so I would say get them out of the way for now, and while you wait to see how their changes fold out go around and work small tweaks for the average characters to give them what they need to stand out in gameplay.

Not to mention that there are other things that should be more important than character tweaks. Going back and adjusting character specific values and reworking the grav values now that we know so much more about how these values impact play for example should be done. For all we know, "X" character might be better off with proper physics and tweaks to them don't need to be as drastic.

I agree with this. Especially with the part about character specific gravity. I think those values need another look.

 

[Kuga]

Good with Falco Fair and Shine nerf remove,but Snake Utilt 13% again? O.O

 

[KAN]

Bowser is a victim to Marth, Falco and Fox...

If I recall that correctly, Bowser's Up-B has one frame more startup than in Melee.
And it lasts longer in Brawl.
That are major flaws that make the Up-B a worse combo breaker than in Melee. (Still good, though.) Would you be able to speed the whole attack up by 1.15 (or so) while on the ground? Would tha be possible?
Would make OoS options better for Bowser. That was the strongest point of Bowser in Melee, and even though I know that B+ is not intended to copy Melee that would do him good in Brawl+, too.
The move would be a quicker counter out of Shield, and would be less punishable if it missed the target.

Maybe not the best input, but I think it would help Bowser. Though I still have to download the latest nightly build. The last one made many special moves malfuntion, so I switched back to the plussery. Will test this set soon...

 

[kupo15]

Also, the down B codes, they were removed because people complained that Falcon didn't need a buff to his recovery, right? While he may not need it, Ganon could use it. Any way we could make it affect him only?

Ganon is getting the Down-b jump code in the latest, or at least we are testing it out with him. Also on the case of Ike, there is a difference between buffing a weakpoint and eliminating it. I agree that Ike may be a little too gimpable right now but the solution to the problem wasn't giving him a recovery that could go down and around Smashville.

Ummm. why are you excluding falcon? The plussery is buffing the crappy recoveries of good characters such as zelda so why is falcon any different? Ganon (esp if the dsmash is kept) and zelda are no worse characters than falcon imo so is this more bias against falcon?

 

[Almas]

Characters are still allowed to have counterpicks in Brawl+, you know. That's a fundamental concept of the Smash series.

I think it's accepted that Bowser is a fairly balanced character at this point in time - he's received a lot of attention from The Cape and Shanus.

 

[Deleted member]

Ummm. why are you excluding falcon? The plussery is buffing the crappy recoveries of good characters such as zelda so why is falcon any different? Ganon (esp if the dsmash is kept) and zelda are no worse characters than falcon imo so is this more bias against falcon?

1) falcons recovery isn't crappy, not as good as pit/MK but still above average

2)we are not. we are buffing the chars that need a recovery fix. if you disagree with our codeset you should let that know in the BR and maybe make other sugestions instead of doing this.

 

[kupo15]

1) falcons recovery isn't crappy, not as good as pit/MK but still above average

2)we are not. we are buffing the chars that need a recovery fix. if you disagree with our codeset you should let that know in the BR and maybe make other sugestions instead of doing this.

Uhh, they were talking about this here so it would only make sense to respond here? And falcon's recovery is no better than ganon's anyway. I would rather see the side b momentum for falcon go and get the down b reset.

 

[Deleted member]

I meant that you should have known that we were gonna change this and then could have responded beforehand in the WBR.
it's always easy to say "but I wanted this" in the end.

and the set is not based on want but rather on needs

 

[Magus420]

Luigi aerial upB changed from 72KBG to 60KBG

This has been included in the builds for a while and I didn't really get much of a response about it before in the other thread back when it was added. From the outside it just appears as though enough people initially complained about d-throw up-b being "broken" and so it was changed, and from what I can tell it was never actually shown to be unavoidable with correct DI on the throw. The change itself doesn't bother me so much as the reasoning behind it (though it does kill at like 100+ or something now I think, lol).

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7243153&postcount=5063

 

[Gamegenie222]

This sounds pretty tight.

 

[Yingyay]

I am loving the unrestricted camera >=3 tooo much fun lol

Gameplay wise. Everything seems fine so far. Sonic's Nair is good now.
Ganon DownB spike is intresting but far from OP
im still on about sheik's fari increased to 125kbg at least to test it out.
But everything seems fine now out of all the characters i tried out anyway

EDiT; Ok pikachu's dthrow chain-grab got nerfed but created something hilarious.
D-throw into AAA until they trip then re-grab Lmao But its DI dependent and probably tech-able. But its still funny

 

[camelot]

I have a small irk with Ness. I'm not exactly sure if this is the right place to talk about potential buffs/nerfs, but I'm not sure where else to post this (and the Ness+ board doesn't want people talking about buffs/nerfs).

It's about his bat. I know people have compared it to Lucas' stick before, but there is no reason the bat should EVER deal less knockback than the stick. The only time the bat does more knockback is at the very tip, and it's a very tiny difference (KO's Mario from the middle of FD only 4% earlier). It does do more damage, but it is much slower and harder to use as a KO move (or hit with in general). I at least think the KO power should be consistent, like the stick, which has the same knockback wherever it hits.

My 2¢

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

OK I did everything on the main site but whenever I land an attakc the screen goes glitchy (unplayble), the music still plays and I can exit just fine.

What is up, I am using the pal version on firmware 3.2E.

 

[Shadic]

...There are characters with MUCH worse recoveries than Zelda, Ganondorf, or Falcon.

Hi, Link.

 

[Deleted member]

OK I did everything on the main site but whenever I land an attakc the screen goes glitchy (unplayble), the music still plays and I can exit just fine.

What is up, I am using the pal version on firmware 3.2E.

what codeset are you using? i know that glitch from the old 4.0, but the current should have it fixed

 

[JCaesar]

im still on about sheik's fari increased to 125kbg at least to test it out.

Good characters don't need buffs. So she has some problems killing, it's just a character weakness. As things stand now she's at least High tier, if not Top. She doesn't need it.

And that's not even taking into account the fact that she can transform into a character who kills very well.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

what codeset are you using? i know that glitch from the old 4.0, but the current should have it fixed

Don't know, I downloaded the gct from the MediaFire site (in the codes folder), maybe that is the old one.

 

[goodoldganon]

Uhh, they were talking about this here so it would only make sense to respond here? And falcon's recovery is no better than ganon's anyway. I would rather see the side b momentum for falcon go and get the down b reset.

The reason I am hesitant to give it to Falcon is simple: DIVERSITY. It makes Ganon different then Falcon. Could Falcon make use of it? Of course. Does he need it? I'd argue far from it. He has a great recovery and his ledge grab range is stupid good. Combine that with the odd 'super armor' effect grabs get and he has a pretty great recovery. (Especially since we fixed momentum on it)

If we ever go through with changing ledge grab range then I'd be all for giving down-b jump reset to Falcon, but at the time being was a below average character and Falcon is a great character. Ganondorf got some attention to bring him up to par.

 

[Sterowent]

I have a small irk with Ness. I'm not exactly sure if this is the right place to talk about potential buffs/nerfs, but I'm not sure where else to post this (and the Ness+ board doesn't want people talking about buffs/nerfs).

It's about his bat. I know people have compared it to Lucas' stick before, but there is no reason the bat should EVER deal less knockback than the stick. The only time the bat does more knockback is at the very tip, and it's a very tiny difference (KO's Mario from the middle of FD only 4% earlier). It does do more damage, but it is much slower and harder to use as a KO move (or hit with in general). I at least think the KO power should be consistent, like the stick, which has the same knockback wherever it hits.

My 2¢

+1

the move itself is supposed to be his best KO move onground and, while the middle of the bat seems fine enough, the tipper could use a buff of some sort. thing's not easy to land and doesn't get enough of a benefit when it does.

 

[kupo15]

The reason I am hesitant to give it to Falcon is simple: DIVERSITY. It makes Ganon different then Falcon. Could Falcon make use of it? Of course. Does he need it? I'd argue far from it. He has a great recovery and his ledge grab range is stupid good. Combine that with the odd 'super armor' effect grabs get and he has a pretty great recovery. (Especially since we fixed momentum on it)

I'm sorry but "diversity" is simply not a good enough answer for me and translates to favoritism to me or it sounds like "its that way just because it is". Ganon and falcon are plenty different and the down b works completely different as well. Ganon also has the SA effect on his up b as well.

You know, CONSISTENCY is something that is also important as well. "Diversity" is a pretty poor argument if you ask me given how different ganon and falcon are.

If we ever go through with changing ledge grab range then I'd be all for giving down-b jump reset to Falcon, but at the time being was a below average character and Falcon is a great character. Ganondorf got some attention to bring him up to par.

Ganon was also a below ave character and is now an awesome char yet you changed his recovery as well. We really need to fix the ledge grab range as well. I want to puke every time I teleport to the ledge like mewtwo.

 

[Dragonrage]

what codeset are you using? i know that glitch from the old 4.0, but the current should have it fixed

We actually encountered the same glitch yesterday with the latest 4.1 build. It worked fine after we removed the ignore handicap code, though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I'm sorry but "diversity" is simply not a good enough answer for me and translates to favoritism to me or it sounds like "its that way just because it is". Ganon and falcon are plenty different and the down b works completely different as well. Ganon also has the SA effect on his up b as well.

You know, CONSISTENCY is something that is also important as well. "Diversity" is a pretty poor argument if you ask me given how different ganon and falcon are.

Ganon was also a below ave character and is now an awesome char yet you changed his recovery as well. We really need to fix the ledge grab range as well. I want to puke every time I teleport to the ledge like mewtwo.

Noooooo, there is nothing wrong with the ledge grab range. It would get rid of options that don't need to be removed.

I want to puke everytime you suggest something like this, i mean can you seriously not handle someone recovering? Ledge grab range, glide stop code, why is it wrong for someone to get back on the stage?

 

[kupo15]

Noooooo, there is nothing wrong with the ledge grab range. It would get rid of options that don't need to be removed.

I want to puke everytime you suggest something like this, i mean can you seriously not handle someone recovering? Ledge grab range, glide stop code, why is it wrong for someone to get back on the stage?

You are totally right. I am completely stupid for wanting such a change. I enjoy easy ledges Giving the returning player more help then they should brings more depth to the game!

Seriously, the best exaggerated example I can relate to would be to give golfers basketball hoop sized golf holes.

 

[sandbags06]

is spear pillar permanently frozen? this is the only ridiculous level i like to play, so when my friends and i want to play casually and switch things up, this stage being frozen was a heart breaker. is there any way to have it be playable both frozen and normal?

 

[goodoldganon]

is spear pillar permanently frozen? this is the only ridiculous level i like to play, so when my friends and i want to play casually and switch things up, this stage being frozen was a heart breaker. is there any way to have it be playable both frozen and normal?

Same here. I haven't gotten around to changing the code. Rest assured when we a final set there will be a way to pick and choose which of the party stages is frozen.

 

[cookieM0Nster]

You are totally right. I am completely stupid for wanting such a change. I enjoy easy ledges Giving the returning player more help then they should brings more depth to the game!

Seriously, the best exaggerated example I can relate to would be to give golfers basketball hoop sized golf holes.

lol, owned. Nice, kupo. The other vid showed more reach, though.