Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[GPDP]

I knew I was forgetting to mention something!

I, too, agree Samus is waaaaaaaaaay too floaty. She should be floaty, but right now she feels like I'm constantly playing on the Wind portion of Pokemon Stadium 2.

Her physics should be much closer to Melee. In fact, I came up with some good gravity settings for her:

0349E4C0

Try that on for size.

 

[GHNeko]

We're not changing anything.

Stop.

Asking.

 

[ChaosKnight]

yes plz keep things aroudn for a few months so people get used to there characters cause it is quite annoying to use a character then next time be it a completely different character

 

[Yanoss1313]

*mutters* well if this thread's going to be locked, will someone at least link me to the next "new" one?

 

[GPDP]

I never asked that you guys change things right now. I'm bringing it up in hopes of you keeping it in mind for the next build. Bowser's physics were completely revamped in this build from the last, making him feel much closer to his Melee physics, so I hope in a few months, the same could be done with Samus.

Unless there's a very good reason for keeping her physics as they are, I don't see why she cannot get the same treatment as Bowser.

 

[Roxas215]

I do agree samus feels way to floaty.

 

[Viquey]

Just want to let yall know there is a bug with zss. I am using usbloader and snapshot method. Whenever i pick zss either on her custom icon or even by selecting samus and holding l the game freezes at the select screen.

edit normal samus freezes as well.

Weiiird. I haven't tried normal samus, but I main ZSS and have been playing tons of matches with her in the last two nights without any trouble. O.o you must have something set funny or somethin'.

Speaking of samus, I wouldn't mind if she was a tad less floaty either, but idc too much. XD

Anyway. This is a good build it seems! Marth feels appropriately Marthy (and he can recover! I can't say how many times I SD'd with him in the last build XD), Zamus' new dair is pure awesome, and ike's feelin' just fine (though to add to the maybe-to-do/fix list, I'd like to see no helpless after side-b, hit or not, but he can only do it once before landing, a la snake's up-b, zamus' down-b, etc.)

Lastly, I'm behind any and all Ness nerfs. Buuut that's 'cause I don't like him. He and Lucas and TL and the like, I find sooo annoying. XD

But yeah. This rambly post is here to say "Good work guys!" to the WBR. No, really, it is.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I don't see any problems with Samus's viability right now. Floaty yes, but I feel like that's just always been part of her character and a distinct weakness to her at times.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

If anyone feels unnaturally floaty it's ZSS. She's a human character, and the way she moves around the stage just seems so unnatural. Do her double jump and watch the animation for it, and youll see what i mean.. That's just me though. I made my own ZSS .pac and play her fastness style cuz I can't stand her standard physics. >.>

 

[goodoldganon]

I'm not the biggest fan of the metroid floatyness but it's the way they characters are made, balanced, and designed around. If you don't like em then try someone else.

 

[GPDP]

I think most of us have established there's no issue with Samus being floaty per se, so much as her being TOO floaty. Like, floaty to the point of ridiculousness.

Samus has always been a floaty character, and I realize and accept that. But I doubt she was even this floaty in 64. That is all I am trying to point out. I see no reason for having Samus remain as floaty as she currently is in Brawl+, especially when we can up her fgrav and decrease her dgrav to achieve the same overall comboability and increased speed, as well as boost her projectile game.

Hopefully she'll get another look by the time the next build comes around, which won't be for a long time. Until then, I'm going to use my own custom gravity settings.

 

[GHNeko]

I think most of us have established there's no issue with Samus being floaty per se, so much as her being TOO floaty. Like, floaty to the point of ridiculousness.

Samus has always been a floaty character, and I realize and accept that. But I doubt she was even this floaty in 64. That is all I am trying to point out. I see no reason for having Samus remain as floaty as she currently is in Brawl+, especially when we can up her fgrav and decrease her dgrav to achieve the same overall comboability and increased speed, as well as boost her projectile game.

Hopefully she'll get another look by the time the next build comes around, which won't be for a long time. Until then, I'm going to use my own custom gravity settings.

I assume you wont be participating in tourneys/smashfests then. RIght? Or playing wifi?

 

[GPDP]

I assume you wont be participating in tourneys/smashfests then. RIght? Or playing wifi?

What's this supposed to mean?

 

[GHNeko]

Generally people who use their own custom settings for characters tend to not perform well with said characters because they're not used to changes.

 

[GPDP]

Well, I don't really play Samus seriously at all. When I do, it's for fun, and with the custom settings I have, I find she handles a lot better.

Since I would never use Samus for any reason other than a whim, I wouldn't consider myself constrained by not being used to the default settings.

Now, if I were advocating different settings for Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, or Falco, you'd have a point. But I'm not, so you don't. :V

 

[Deleted member]

I assume you wont be participating in tourneys/smashfests then. RIght? Or playing wifi?

Don't be a ****. If he thinks the characters are too floaty, he'll tinker with them on his own to present to the WBR that it improves gameplay. Don't stifle revolution - ESPECIALLY in a game based entirely on community feedback.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Well, I've had my entire dorm playing this release for a couple nights for a few hours at a time...and they're all loving it.

>_> No complaints from my Samus mains on the floor either.
-DD

 

[goodoldganon]

Don't be a ****. If he thinks the characters are too floaty, he'll tinker with them on his own to present to the WBR that it improves gameplay. Don't stifle revolution - ESPECIALLY in a game based entirely on community feedback.

We aren't stiffling creative works or any tinkering, regardless of however you interpreted him comment. What we want is for people to go a month without asking for changes unless there is a serious gamebreaking bug (infinite snake recovery) Is Samus too floaty? It's all a matter of opinion, I'd rather people work wit what they are given instead of making a change so they can present it later. What I (and probably other WBR member want) is for the community to think they are playing a game we can't change anymore and work from there.

 

[GPDP]

Don't be a ****. If he thinks the characters are too floaty, he'll tinker with them on his own to present to the WBR that it improves gameplay. Don't stifle revolution - ESPECIALLY in a game based entirely on community feedback.

I'd like to think Neko didn't mean to offend me with that comment. Let's not spend what little time this thread has open on useless drama.

But yeah, I have spent considerable time tweaking gravity settings, and I came up with some good ones, I believe. The current Bowser physics are very close to mine, in fact. I'd like to see such changes made to some other characters, such as Samus, and maybe Mario. Though Mario is, of course, not as pressing as Samus IMO.

But out of respect for the current hard work made by the WBR, I will shut up about physics changes for the time being, and enjoy the set as it is (plus my own tweaks, of course). Again, I cannot stress what a great job has been done here. I can't wait to present this set to my peers.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, perhaps he didn't, (and I'm not too upset about it) but I just think it's a little ridiculous to try and pass off the game as unchangeable when we know it can and will be changed. I too think Samus is way too floaty. It just feels awkward.

 

[WheelOfFish]

I don't mind Samus's floatiness all that much (though I totally prefer Melee Samus), it's just her "fast" (y'know, barely faster than her regular) fall that bothers me.

Not to mention that Melee Samus is still kinda floaty, but not ridiculously. That would be nice. I mean, plenty of other characters got their physics readjusted.

But at the same time, I get that this build isn't changing for a long time (hopefully more than a month GoG... that's not nearly enough time for any sort of a metagame to develop), and I'm not asking for these changes anytime before the next build. Just something to think about.

Edit: Phillyrider, take out your character texture hacks. That's what I had to do :/

 

[Dai Tian]

I think Samus could benefit from a bit less floatyness but it's nothing I need Right. This. Minute. Hell if her floaty was never messed with at all ever again I'm fine with that.

I'm gonna go ahead and check this out now. Many thanks doods

 

[RPGsFTW]

I'm very surprised that no one else is raging about Fox right now.

Since this build has come out my friends and I have been hating on Fox a bunch.

I for one think he combos, sets up for combos, and kills rather well. Repeated drills into Utilt, or anything, especially on fatties, for massive damage, are way too annoying. And if Fox knows that you're going to attempt to shield grab him out of his Dair, he can jab -> grab, or just grab.

Also, I do not like Fox's Fair at all. He can use it almost exactly like it were his drill and jab -> grab, Usmash, etc out of it. That and it does 16% easily. And that's WITHOUT the whole move hitting. That stupid Fair can do 16% or more and go into many easy set-ups, one of them being Usmash death! I don't think that it's fair that a Fox can use his Fair almost as if it were Wario's Dair, but he gets the luxuries of doing more % and setting up into many things. Wario's Dair does not do that.

TL;DR Fox is an *******, IMO and my friends, especially to fatties.

Also, Ness is awesome and not too good. Look at Fox if any character is too good. And Lucas is amazing! My friend does amazing combos, some involving Zair, like Zair -> Down-B kill. <3

/End complaints about Fox.

 

[stingers]

a fox won the b+ tourney we hosted this weekend...lawl he combos from 0-80 and kills at 100.

 

[lord karn]

The results if anyone was interested were:

1. Duo (Fox)
2. Karn (Ganon and G&W for two matches)
3. Stingers (ROB)
4. NC-Echo (Olimar and Bowser for a couple matches)
5. THO (Peach)
5. Don't remember, the full results will be up soon.

There were about 15 total entrants for B+. I can see where people are coming from thinking Fox is OP, but I definitely think there are still better characters. Namely, Marth and MK.

 

[cubaisdeath]

I dunno, I played a bit of samus in vbrawl, so her floatiness doesn't bother me at all =/

and fox is pretty good, but hasn't he always been?

 

[RPGsFTW]

and fox is pretty good, but hasn't he always been?

Truthfully, I'm never thought he was good at all until this build. Now he is sorta ridiculous to me. Also, I haven't had problems with Marth and MK yet. MK actually looks like it's even easier to pound on him now because of his sword hitlag looking like it lasts so long sometimes.

I don't have as much a problem against Fox when I'm not a fatty. But the thing is that what I said in my previous post still holds true: he sets up for kills, lands the kills, and does it all SAFELY with very minimal, if any, effort at all. I hate Dair/Fair -> Usmash/jab/grab. It's all too safe and effective. =[

Oh! Any vids from any of these recent Brawl+ tourneys?

 

[Nybb]

If the aim is to have this set out for a while to collect data on balance, wouldn't it be a good idea to set up a standard tourney result hub-thread-thing?

Also, I downloaded this new set, but I have a problem. Falco cannot fastfall lasers, and Ness can't DJC. However, some of the changes like Falco's pull-in shine, as well as general things like dash-dancing and crouch-cancelling dashes, all still work fine. And I don't think I'm just unable to do those techniques...I played Falco in Melee and Ness in Melee/64, so I think it is some kind of error, likely on my part.

 

[cubaisdeath]

you have to fast fall before you laser

and check a page the last page for DJC tutorial lol

 

[Doval]

Samus isn't "too floaty." And her B+ short hop is a god****ed godsend. In Melee and vBrawl her short hop was far too high to hit anyone but the tallest characters until you were already well on your way down, which took a while with the height of it and her slow ascent/descent time.

By the way I'm really feeling those changes to her (and ZSS's) linking attacks to make them suck enemies in and hold them in place.

And if Fox knows that you're going to attempt to shield grab him out of his Dair, he can jab -> grab, or just grab.

Pretty sure the defender has frame advantage, which means no johns. Last I checked, he has 9 frames landing lag whereas you only have 5 frames of shield stun. He can't "just grab," as it's too slow. He has enough time to jab before a grab comes out, but that's still not fast enough to prevent a roll/sidestep, and jab->grab on a shield doesn't work. The amount of stun needed for that to work would be ludicrous. Faster options than grabbing, stuff like Fortress/Super Jump Punch/Screw Attack/Shuttle Loop/Dolphin Slash OOS should punish him straight up.

tl;dr he has no guaranteed options after a shielded d-air.

 

[shanus]

Truthfully, I'm never thought he was good at all until this build. Now he is sorta ridiculous to me. Also, I haven't had problems with Marth and MK yet. MK actually looks like it's even easier to pound on him now because of his sword hitlag looking like it lasts so long sometimes.

I don't have as much a problem against Fox when I'm not a fatty. But the thing is that what I said in my previous post still holds true: he sets up for kills, lands the kills, and does it all SAFELY with very minimal, if any, effort at all. I hate Dair/Fair -> Usmash/jab/grab. It's all too safe and effective. =[

Oh! Any vids from any of these recent Brawl+ tourneys?

Drill Utilt is not a legitimate combo unless your opponent is behind you. If they drill you and uptilt you forwards you can easily shield or even jab the fox.

Options out of dair for fox:

Facing forward: Shine or Grab (test this in training mode for hitstun registers)

Facing backward: Utilt (very tight window for this to register, too) or shine


As you can see, this was built to require more thinking with dair, and if you are being hit with dair utilts, you need to powershield more, or jab, or roll, or anything unless you are always behind your opponent.....

I spent forever fine tuning this, and it sounds like your just assuming you can't get out when you probably can....

 

[shanus]

Samus isn't "too floaty." And her B+ short hop is a god****ed godsend. In Melee and vBrawl her short hop was far too high to hit anyone but the tallest characters until you were already well on your way down, which took a while with the height of it and her slow ascent/descent time.

By the way I'm really feeling those changes to her (and ZSS's) linking attacks to make them suck enemies in and hold them in place.Pretty sure the defender has frame advantage, which means no johns. Last I checked, he has 9 frames landing lag whereas you only have 5 frames of shield stun. He can't "just grab," as it's too slow. He has enough time to jab before a grab comes out, but that's still not fast enough to prevent a roll/sidestep, and jab->grab on a shield doesn't work. The amount of stun needed for that to work would be ludicrous. Faster options than grabbing, stuff like Fortress/Super Jump Punch/Screw Attack/Shuttle Loop/Dolphin Slash OOS should punish him straight up.

tl;dr he has no guaranteed options after a d-air.

Incorrect, has shine, grab, and utilt (only facing on backside, very tight timing too as you have to hit the ground like 1-2 frames after the hitbox connects).

 

[Doval]

Incorrect, has shine, grab, and utilt (only facing on backside, very tight timing too as you have to hit the ground like 1-2 frames after the hitbox connects).

I meant against a shielding opponent, sorry. Fixed.

you need to powershield more

This wouldn't really help at all since while you can PS the first hit on a multi-hit attack, any subsequent hits that are outside the window of opportunity (which is all of them but the first) won't be PS'd. And I still think we should fix the frame advantage on powershielding. But yeah, people really need to test stuff out in Debug Pause before claiming x or y is guaranteed.

How tight is the timing on d-air to (rear) up-tilt, Shanus? Can't check right now. It should be possible with really epic execution to just turn around and up-tilt if the amount of leeway is more than one frame.

 

[CloneHat]

Wait, are you saying Fox can drill>grab your shield?

 

[shanus]

I meant against a shielding opponent, sorry. Fixed.This wouldn't really help at all since while you can PS the first hit on a multi-hit attack, any subsequent hits that are outside the window of opportunity (which is all of them but the first) won't be PS'd. And I still think we should fix the frame advantage on powershielding. But yeah, people really need to test stuff out in Debug Pause before claiming x or y is guaranteed.

How tight is the timing on d-air to (rear) up-tilt, Shanus? Can't check right now. It should be possible with really epic execution to just turn around and up-tilt if the amount of leeway is more than one frame.

It's been a while since I tested, I'll need to do it again. I think its something like 2-3 frames, but the memory is shoddy on it since I did it like well over a month or two ago.

 

[bob-e]

you have to fast fall before you laser

Wha? I've been doing it laser then FF just fine. The best I can get is laser on frame 14, FF between 16 - 20 for silent laser.

Shanus, you put together Falco's new laser and physics, right? Exactly what is the fastest you can do it?

On the issue of Fox, he does seem a bit too good right now. A character with such a strong combo game and a gimping move like shine doesn't need smashes or an up air as powerful as Fox. Falco could probably use a nerf on the power of his smashes and uair too, since his new physics and IASA on utilt seem to make it easier comboing into a dair kill.

 

[metaXzero]

Now? Besides the shine and drill changes, I don't recall Fox getting much of anything. He'd have to already been too good...

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't really see why people are now whining about Fox...

He only got a few hitlag/SDI changes to his moves and his shine frame data was slightly fixed up. I don't get why people NOW have problems with Fox.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that him (along with some other characters), were already too good before the new set was even released.

But I don't think a new set should come out for a while, although it would be fine to patch in a few changes that aren't all that radical every now and then.

 

[GHNeko]

I thought Fox whining was a Fad?