Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[shanus]

uh oh, this discussion again.

Last time, it was very not pretty.

 

[Lil'E]

Maybe its just me.... But shields regenerate too fast in my opinion.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

If ALL randomness is taken out, then what will we do with moves that are basically relied on for trip set-ups (Zelda's dtilt, TL's dash attack, etc.), and what will we do with something as variable as Peach's turnip game? If we're gonna blanket remove randomness, we also need a way to compensate such moves without making them OP or UP (is that even a term? Let's go with NU, Smogon-style).

LOL @ the Pokémon tier reference...

But attempting to take out randomness is like treading on thin ice... Since it's pretty much impossible to take out every single form of randomness, taking only some out would definitely cause a lot of complaints. And where would one draw the line on what is "too random"? It's just risky business tampering with that...

 

[cAm8ooo]

uh oh, this discussion again.

Last time, it was very not pretty.

Quick change the subject!

uh......hmmm.... How about that bowser?

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

Maybe its just me.... But shields regenerate too fast in my opinion.

+1

I just ledge camp/run away to regen it and it comes back really easy.. should be just a bit slower imo.

 

[dgameman1]

I can still chaingrab...

I mean it's 10x harder but I can still do it ...

Anyone want me to send a replay?

 

[Alphatron]

I don't want to see randomness totally removed, but I'll refrain from making any arguement about it right now.

That being said, I brought up Zelda's dair because I remember a past update increasing the sweetspot size on her fair/bair. That, and dair still sucks against grounded opponents. Although if Zelda is performing constant aerial approaches, then you're doing it wrong.

As for future characters, how about we discuss Yoshi, King Dedede, or Bowser? Or Kirby/Metaknight since some believe Kirby has become the Pit of brawl and I personally think Meta>him still. >__>;;

 

[Me_Aludes]

I can still chaingrab...

I mean it's 10x harder but I can still do it ...

Anyone want me to send a replay?

I don't see any problems with chaingrabs as long as they're DIable/ only work at really specific percents.

 

[dgameman1]

I don't see any problems with chaingrabs as long as they're DIable/ only work at really specific percents.

I can still 0-Death =P

EDIT: Why don't you guys make it how it was in melee?

 

[shanus]

It's known that you can still do alt infinites with dash grabs and pivot grabs.

 

[dgameman1]

It's known that you can still do alt infinites with dash grabs and pivot grabs.

Im doing bthrow to fthrow =

 

[Deleted member]

I can still chaingrab...

I mean it's 10x harder but I can still do it ...

Anyone want me to send a replay?

Sure.
10char

 

[dgameman1]

Sure.
10char

Have AIM or MSN?

 

[SketchHurricane]

Tripping moves: always trip till ~n% and only a certain hitbox trips
After that never trips

Olimar's Pikmin Pluck:
Color changes every n frames.
13 frames Red
13 frames Yellow
13 frames Blue
11 frames Purple
10 frames White
Repeat from red
So the pattern repeats every second.

Peach:
Everything is n% turnip
or
First turnip: weakest
....
last: stitch face
repeat from weakest

Fsmash: First time tennis, second time golf, third time pan. Repeat from tennis

You get what I mean. Randomness can be completely removed without taking away the character's options. And it adds strategy. I'm not saying this will be done soon, or they are the best solutions, the examples are just to prove my statement.

All interesting, except for the second Peach example, which seems like you'd get way too many stitch faces.

And in the Olimar example, I suppose with insane timing and luck (to get the right frame initially) you could get all of one color? lol that'd be cool to mess with.

 

[Sudai]

Have AIM or MSN?

Or you can post the link here?

 

[dgameman1]

Or you can post the link here?

how am i supposed to post a replay here...?

 

[jokey665]

how am i supposed to post a replay here...?

upload it to mediafire, megaupload, rapidshare, etc and post the link here

 

[dgameman1]

upload it to mediafire, megaupload, rapidshare, etc and post the link here

I can't record. Isn't it possible to send replays through the wii?

 

[Deleted member]

I can't record. Isn't it possible to send replays through the wii?

You don't need to record it, just send the replay file to your SD while in brawl, then put the file on your PC, then upload it, like I did.
Edit: Send it to me by MSN, I'll upload it.

 

[dgameman1]

OOO i got it genius

 

[timothyung]

All interesting, except for the second Peach example, which seems like you'd get way too many stitch faces.

And in the Olimar example, I suppose with insane timing and luck (to get the right frame initially) you could get all of one color? lol that'd be cool to mess with.

They're just examples, you can always change how it works, like 3 cycles for a stitch. Or just nerf stitch face to do 15% dmg
And yes, personally I really like the Olimar idea. Maybe change it to 12 frames per color change. Then you should get every color if you pluck them in a row, or you can time it to get the colors you want. You can look at the timer to time your plucks. Very cool I would say.
Though this thing won't happen soon I think

 

[Deleted member]

OOO i got it genius

Sorry if I insulted your intelligence. Can't be too careful.

 

[[TSON]]

Stitchy can't kill, so I'm alright with him.

But 3 bombs in 1 match is kinda outrageous, don't you think? x.x

The only other random that poses a problem is Peach's fsmash, where in a specific order the peach main could space it way better.

I think getting rid of Misfire random would be over the top.. Luigi kinda needs that.

 

[dgameman1]

Sorry if I insulted your intelligence. Can't be too careful.

Nah it ment to be that I got it. And that your a genius. I forgot my punctuation


http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=653e0c42c9df41969bf8d6369220dcab7a45d088a4af5cf5c95965eaa7bc68bc

/win

 

[FrozenHobo]

Sorry if I insulted your intelligence. Can't be too careful.

in your replay, thats just the blizzard cg. i think you can SDI blizzard now so against humans thats not as effective, though i like how it worked. i'll try it out the next time i have friends over.

 

[Hyrus]

Since it's pretty much impossible to take out every single form of randomness, taking only some out would definitely cause a lot of complaints. And where would one draw the line on what is "too random"? It's just risky business tampering with that...

Randomness is not the root of the problem, it's the move's intended use. When D3 presses Side B, the player intends to use a light projectile attack. Waddle Dees and Waddle Doos serve the same function, have the same physics, and only do 2% difference in damage. It is an expected part of using D3's Side B.

Gordo's, however, are entirely different. They are significantly larger, travel farther, do more damage (23%) and KO well. You didn't intend on throwing out projectile equivalent of a smash attack, nor were you counting on it. You just wanted to stop your opponent's approach and you killed them by mistake.

So, if the randomized effect changes the player intended purpose of the move, then it's a Sakurai.

 

[dgameman1]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=6...5965eaa7bc68bc


Anyone seen it? I don't understand why I'm still able to do it

 

[Alphatron]

Unlike stichface and bombs, gordos are common enough to appear in nearly every match. They kill better than the stitchface too.

A shame we can't touch D3's minions. I play him a lot but a nerf on gordo power would be reasonable.

Then again, he kinda sucks now. More nerfs hurt.

 

[GHNeko]

Randomness is not the root of the problem, it's the move's intended use. When D3 presses Side B, the player intends to use a light projectile attack. Waddle Dees and Waddle Doos serve the same function, have the same physics, and only do 2% difference in damage. It is an expected part of using D3's Side B.

Gordo's, however, are entirely different. They are significantly larger, travel farther, do more damage (23%) and KO well. You didn't intend on throwing out projectile equivalent of a smash attack, nor were you counting on it. You just wanted to stop your opponent's approach and you killed them by mistake.

So, if the randomized effect changes the player intended purpose of the move, then it's a Sakurai.

Speak for yourself. <_>

There are times players wish for something other than a Doo or Dee. Half the time I wish for Doos for combos and when I knock opponents off the stage, I wish for gordo's.

With GaW, every single time I use judgement, I wish for 9s, and for every 9 I get, I purposely do two Judgement attacks to bring the 9 back into the queue of possible numbers.

I realize the risk of using moves for their rarer functions and I fully accept that, and I still use the move anyway expecting their rarer moves (Gordo, 9s, and bomb ombs). <_>

So speak for yourself about how "the player intends to do x"

 

[CloneHat]

Why is randomness such a big deal. It's pure versatility, in the case of Peach. The turnips all do the same thing, but some are stronger than others. Would you rather they all do the same amount of damage? It's not like it would change the game at all, it would just make turnips less interesting.

Gordos? A threat? Only if they hit you while you're in stun. D3's toss is so slow and predictable; it's not like your going to say: "Oh, I wasn't shielding because I didn't think it was a gordo." You're going to have something thrown at you when you see that animation, so it really doesn't make much of a difference what it is. My only recomendation would be to decrease the size of gordos, because that can mess with your timing.

All in all, I don't care too much about randomness, but taking it out just makes the game blander.

 

[DaiAndOh]

Erm, where exactly is the spike on Pit's dtilt now? I'm having trouble finding it. Tip doesn't seem to work, thanks.

 

[timothyung]

Why is randomness such a big deal. It's pure versatility, in the case of Peach. The turnips all do the same thing, but some are stronger than others. Would you rather they all do the same amount of damage? It's not like it would change the game at all, it would just make turnips less interesting.

Gordos? A threat? Only if they hit you while you're in stun. D3's toss is so slow and predictable; it's not like your going to say: "Oh, I wasn't shielding because I didn't think it was a gordo." You're going to have something thrown at you when you see that animation, so it really doesn't make much of a difference what it is. My only recomendation would be to decrease the size of gordos, because that can mess with your timing.

All in all, I don't care too much about randomness, but taking it out just makes the game blander.

Because in a competitive game no player should be awarded for being lucky, or punished for being unlucky.
You can still keep their options even if you remove the randomness part. D3 can throw Dees and Doos in order, and when you hold B you throw a Gordo, with more endlag.
Peach's turnips can also appear in a set order. Then both players can easily know which turnip is coming, it keeps the variety but removes randomness.
There are always solutions to things you know.

 

[Revven]

Erm, where exactly is the spike on Pit's dtilt now? I'm having trouble finding it. Tip doesn't seem to work, thanks.

I believe Hitbox shift mod still isn't working yet so, the Dtilt actually hasn't been changed YET.

 

[DaiAndOh]

I believe Hitbox shift mod still isn't working yet so, the Dtilt actually hasn't been changed YET.

0_o why list it then? Ah well, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Plum]

Because in a competitive game no player should be awarded for being lucky, or punished for being unlucky.
You can still keep their options even if you remove the randomness part. D3 can throw Dees and Doos in order, and when you hold B you throw a Gordo, with more endlag.
Peach's turnips can also appear in a set order. Then both players can easily know which turnip is coming, it keeps the variety but removes randomness.
There are always solutions to things you know.

I hate to break it to you, but there are games just as competitive, if not more competitive that have luck intertwined throughout the game.

Tell me with a straight face that Pokemon isn't competitive. It has a MASSIVE competitive community across the world. Now again tell me that Pokemon doesn't have huge amounts of luck in it.
Critical hits are all luck. There is no way to know when they will happen, but there is always a certain percent chance (can be higher with some moves or Pokemon abilities) that you land a crit and that changes the entire course of the game. Matches are won and lost because of this luck.
Just today I was being walled by a Blissey, and with my physical hitter already dead I should have lost and been completely stalled out. But my Jolteon hit a crit thunderbolt on it and KO'd it, allowing me to sweep the rest of the team.
Paralysis is another luck factor. Same with confusion and affection. They are all status moves that give you a certain percent of hitting the opponent or not. Something you should easily take down all of the sudden sweeps your team because you were paralyzed for one turn.
Flinch rates are another luck factor. And so on and so forth; and after all of that Pokemon is one of the biggest competitive games out there.

Team Fortress 2 (the best FPS imo) matches can be determined by luck. While certainly not to the degree of Pokemon, I have been in clan matches where a simple stream of luck won or lost the round. You can watch a Heavy lose his Medic to another Heavy/Medic team and pull out a string of crits to mow the other team down when he clearly should have died right there. You can watch a Soldier wreak absolute havoc on the other team because of one lucky crit rocket. That one instant of luck could have just allowed his team to push through the enemies defense to their last capture point or intelligence. I've seen it happen in the hundreds of hours I've poured into the game.

There are plenty of other games that are certainly competitive that have hints of luck throughout the game, and it doesn't stop them from being competitive; those are just two I personally play. Melee had a luck factor with a few characters and it never harmed its success. Point is, luck can easily live in a competitive game.

 

[JCaesar]

Play poker much? Poker is 100% luck and the mindgames that result from that luck, with a smattering of math knowledge which you can use to take advantage of that luck. And I don't think anyone would argue that Poker isn't competitive.

 

[Sudai]

Play poker much? Poker is 100% luck and the mindgames that result from that luck, with a smattering of math knowledge which you can use to take advantage of that luck. And I don't think anyone would argue that Poker isn't competitive.

****it JCZ... You're in my head this time. I was going to use that exact comparison. :[

 

[Cero]

Wth does poker have to do with competitive Smash?

 

[_clinton]

I think they won't edit the effect of unedited moves in order to save line space.
Also Ness' bat already pings at the tip.

Here is a list of moves they have added special effects on...
Bowser's Fsmash
Ness' bat (and I know the ping is at the tip...my post was saying thanks for that)
Jigglypuff's rest (although I don't know why)
Ganondorf's Bair and Fair IIRC

Nair has insane priority. Not only that, it has multiple forms of utility. The strong hit largely serves as a gtfo, and the weak hit can link into uair, utilt, fair and in some cases, a grab. It also lasts forever.

I know why it is good...in fact I love the move...that is why I was thinking of how it could be better in some way...

Dair lasts for god knows how long, comes out significantly faster, and a has a ******** *nipple spike* trajectory on the very delayed sourspot. The speed up on the move I believe doesn't happen till the hitbox, so it shouldn't be effecting any durations that I know of, unless someone messed up.

My point was the speed up while nice screwed up the timing on certain things like hitting people below platforms on BF...so I feel it sort of screwed somethings away...

Also, multiple true combos exist into kills, dair to uair (has ******** quantities of hitstun, even with the best DI its trivial to pursue this), fair to uair if the opponent fails to SDI out, dthrow uair or nair (depending on DI, the lower BKB on dthrow makes this possible), FF fair (non last hit) to grab bthrow, etc.

I know what all of those are...however still the only one that truly works is Dair...but with PKT the way it was before this nightly it added a new one that helped out by a bit...in fact it just made it someone risky to try and run from Ness to a degree as well...just like in vBrawl (the slower speed really was nice for making it add pressure)

The way it is now people can just DI away from Ness pretty much with out almost any risk at all

 

[thesage]

Clinton, D-throw and fair were buffed immensely as combo moves. U-smash also sets up for combos nicely now. I was playing a Peach today and I had no problems combo'ing her with fair lol. And the games were online, and I am terrible online.

Pkt is always going to be terrible (offline) due to the speed at which it travels. People ff too quickly now for it to be effective, it would need a knockback boost, the tail would need to do something because people can just eat the damage and then punish Ness right now. It's not a great move and can be used in certain situations. Even with the buffs, the move is useless in 7 matchups (not counting people who ff like crazy away from the move).

The only things I see problematic with the new Ness is that pk flash is a bit too big and I think fair is op'd since it combos so well. Fair should set up for combos, and I'd rather see uair combo like how fair does now. If you guys say he's balanced now though w/e lol.

Also pk fire ***** bowser, but bowser's flame counterrapes Ness so that's ok lol.