Building For Battle (Samus' Move Tier List & Discussion.)

[Smash G 0 D]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcLaD50ucRA#t=4m44s

 

[LanceStern]

nice SG haha.

It's too bad it doesn't have that much knockback at low percents

 

[Calzum!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcLaD50ucRA#t=4m44s

best use of bomb evar

 

[Mr9]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcLaD50ucRA#t=4m44s

it very situational if you could do it every single time it would be a great.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, information about morph bombs has been added to the front page, time to discuss the tilts now, starting with Up Tilt

Up tilt imo is a very underrated move. It has some startup and ending lag, but nothing TO signficant. The move has ENORMOUS range, especially for a tilt, and it can eat air dodges towards the ground very well, aswell as spot dodges, but it can be punished if it misses, so it's more of a "only use if your going to have some sort of postive effect" kind of move. It's one of Samus best edgeguarding tilts, and for Samus, can KO relativly well, especially at the edge.

Low C High D for me, undecided atm.

 

[Mr9]

lol up tilt one word SURPRISE!

i love this move, great ledge guard move, and because of how the the knock back angle changes depending on if the opponent is in the air or on the ground it can confuse people.
in my book this is a C-Tier

 

[LanceStern]

Utilt is one of my favorite moves on battlefield. I'm now actively trying to use it to force an opponent into a tumble on the ground so I can jab lock.

Utilt is also useful for anti-air attacks when the opponent is in front of you. It actually has decent priority and the hitbox is strange. It's one of her best surprise killing moves for edge guarding (especially pikachus or space animals).

If you miss though, expect to be punished. I put it right at the C tier

 

[Darkshadow7827]

Agrees w/everyone else. Good surprise KO move, good for edgeguarding, I still don't understand the hitbox > trajectory of utilt, good range. Very punishable. What everyone else said. Also, I suck and can't jab lock; I don't walk fast enough. Need more training mode for a tech that'll rarely happen.

Conclusion: C-tier

 

[Karcist]

It's great for hitting people that are standing on platforms above you. Most people expect a screw attack so this can throw people off a little bit. I think it is pretty limited though so I wouldn't give it higher than D.

 

[KillerJawz]

I have changed the ending of the discussion to the 17th instead of the 18th. We are covering the information needed for utilt rapidly, and judging by the comments made, this move, as I originally predicted, is underrated.

I will be doing some more visual based updates later on next week since I finish college on friday.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, I have added the information of uptilt to the OP, we will now be discussing foward tilt.

 

[Mr9]

im not quite sure where to put this move...

what i like most about this move is that it has great range, decent speed, a little lag, and at the right percentage it can combo well into a charge shot.

the knock back on it isnt bad but definitely not a kill move, i like using this move to space.

i guess its best aspect is that people underestimate the length of this attack

in conclusion i guess C/b tier

 

[IsmaR]

I've killed with it on stages with platforms and on stages close to the edge(super early on SV and Lylat in particular). It's really good for punishing rolls and spotdodges, and has pretty good range overall. It can also set up some situational strings, is a really good "gtfo" move, and the little lag(compared to other moves) makes it hard to punish.

I'd give it a B.

Edit: Forgot to mention no one ever really expects it. That makes it good for mindgames, especially when you angle it up on people above you/on platforms.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

I mainly use it for spacing. I don't really know when exactly is the best time to use it though. I use it instead of the 2nd jab basically. Not sure about this move - still experimenting when to use it purposely.
:/
Conclusion - C tier / Average?

 

[Karcist]

This is one of my favorite moves with Samus. Great range, not much lag, ability to angle it, decent knockback for spacing puts it in the A tier for me.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys Im about to update the first post, we are now talking about DOWN TILT.

On another note, I will not be putting any sort of tier or write up opinion for anybody who does not have a sufficient amount of knowledge on the move.

 

[Mr9]

the down tilt is by far her best kill move.

its fast doesnt really have start up lag, and the cool down lag afterward is not bad either, this move actually has decent range and a good size hit box, it combos really well out of her Fair, and works nicely out of a jab cancel. this move is the best kill move in stages with low ceilings, i love it on BF, Rainbow Cruise, lylat (if legal that is), and several other.

in the end i would place this move as an A or S tier

 

[RaigothDagon]

Aha, wish that was true about her kill moves. I save my dtilt as a kill move, but it is the easiest of her moves to DI in order to live longer. Snake can live longer than 200% on your dtilt close to refreshed, if not fully refreshed. I actually get more kills out of my fsmash even though I dont keep it all the way refreshed.

It is fast, start up is very close to her jab speed. The cool down lag of this move is terrible, if you face someone who knows what is up, they will punish you for this one. The range of this move is very good though, if I recall right it reaches as far as ftilt does and keeps your hurtbox way out of the way. It is one of her best edge guarding moves (grounded) if you know how to space well. Timing it correctly coupled with walking towards an opponent to bait an edge attack is awesome.

It has good priority, and does a pretty sizable amount of damage. The main drawback that I cant emphasize enough is if it gets shielded. It is one of her more punishable moves.

Overall a good move, but not worthy of anything spectacular. I'd say a B, or C at least.

 

[Karcist]

I find the down tilt to be a decent KO move, or even as a damage move. One thing I do from time to time is throw out a jab then instead of using the second jab I down tilt. It tends to knock people back far inside their shield to keep her safe if something goes wrong (unless they powershield). I've been trying to break the habit of damaging with it though because her KO moves are so bad. While this isn't a great KO move, it's one of the best she's got so I'd say it's pretty useful.

Bottom of the A tier, below charge shot.

 

[mountain_tiger]

DTilt is good, but it has its problems. It's very fast in start-up considering that it kills at around 120-130%, but its cooldown sucks ***. IIRC, cooldown is almost 40 frames, which means that it would be super punishable if they shield it. Its range is OK horizontally, but it only hits on the ground, which can make it hard to kill with since at higher percents they'll be expecting it and stay out of its range.

DTilt is probably her most reliable kill move (either that or FSmash), and as such is worth using, but you have to make yourself unpredictable when you use it, since everyone expects it of you (a bit like Peach with her Fair).

B Tier.

 

[RaigothDagon]

The earliest kill move Samus has is her bair, but that move is very hard to pull off against opponents. Her most reliable kill move, if you play smart, is her CS given you know how to pull it off consistently. However, the second most reliable kill move would be her fsmash, which kills much earlier than dtilt. If you are playing with a low ceiling, you give the opponent the option for an early kill upwards as well, and fighting characters that are good at that like Snake means you are at the disadvantage.

I had been thinking on it a little bit, and thought it might be worthy of having two different strategies with Samus:

1 Saving dtilt as a kill move vs characters that cant kill early on low ceilings. Usually smaller characters dont have good vertical kill moves and are easier to kill upwards anyway. Fsmash is too good at punishing people, and if they shield, you are almost completely safe. Of course, if you havent learned to tilt it in the case that you miss or your spacing is slightly too far away then you are screwed.

2 Saving fsmash as a kill move vs characters that can kill early on low ceilings or are heavy. Im going to put MK here, because he can survive well after 120% from dtilt, which is really not good since he can rack up damage on us usually faster than we can him. I seriously recommend using dtilt a lot in these matchups because it has deceiving range and can rack up damage quickly. What makes the hitbox more deceiving, especially against people who camp ledges, is when you learn to walk with dtilt resulting in a sliding dtilt.

 

[IsmaR]

Most of what I wanted to say has been covered by Rai, Karcist and tiger. Overall I'd say low-A to high-B tier. Figure I should add in some things, though.

Start with using it as a follow-up move. Bomb > D-tilt, FF F-air > D-tilt, and jab > D-tilt at low % all work fairly well. D-tilt in itself isn't a very good KO move, but it isn't below average. Fresh ones can take out enemies, while overused ones act as a gtfo move. Against any heavy characters and well-trained-in-DI players, it won't kill before at least 160%(200 is over exaggerating, methinks, unless you literally have done nothing but depend on it the whole match), and on lightweights who aren't Squirtle(fire resistance leaves U-tilt and Charge Shots as better options), depending on all factors, may not KO until well over 130%. Whilst F-smash is a better KO move, I find it harder to land in most cases. Charge Shot > U-tilt > D-tilt > F-smash > B-air in terms of how easy it is to land, in my opinion.

Using D-tilt on low ceiling stages depend on who works better on the stage. My usual CPs consist of Brinstar, Halberd, and Battlefield. Obviously Snake is good on Halberd, several characters are good on BF, and Meta Knight and Wario work well on Brinstar. It boils down to your playstyle in the end. I've taken Snakes to Halberd and Warios/MKs to Brinstar and BF and came out on top due to how I played. If you can learn to balance out your D-tilt with your other KO and damage-racking moves, you should be good to go in situations that demand D-tilt.

As Rai said, it's good for edgeguarding. Just as an example, I've played a Lucario who ***** me everywhere but the ledge. I ended up winning by Z-airing every attempt to recover over the stage, then catching him with D-tilt as he went for the ledge. It is also a very good move on stages characters can rise from, like Delfino, Halberd, Brinstar and pretty much any stage with platforms. The range is fairly good and most people won't suspect it unless you start spamming it. I mix in D-smashes to juke them, works wonders unless it's a MK, in which case I dance around with Bombs and throw out more D-tilts/D-airs.

 

[Crystanium]

D-tilt is garbage against people who know how to DI properly. It used to be able to KO at early percents, but ever since the discovery of the various DIs and momentum cancels, it, like the rest of Samus' kill moves are garbage. It takes a total of 6 or 7 frames, I believe, and it has excellent range. Compare Samus' d-tilt with Zelda's. Zelda cannot hit Samus with her d-tilt in a particular range, but within that same range, Samus can hit Zelda.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well guys thanks for your awesome contributions :3. I will be sure to update this ASAP, we will not begin another discussion until after christmas or near early January, since I won't be on tomorrow, merry christmas everyone <3.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well guys, hope you enjoyed your christmas, hope you got everything you wanted, but now it's time to get back to grinding down with Samus. Time to discuss her Jabs, this includes first jab and second jab.

 

[Crystanium]

Samus' jab is 3 frames, and it does a total of 10% damage if fresh. That is 3% + (7%). The initial jab is perfect to poke at your opponent and then retreat. If the first hit lands, perhaps go for a d-tilt. Jab cancels are great, but watch out. Samus' jab lack hitstun, although it has great priority. Jab cancels are especially good if Samus is behind the opponent. The hitbox seems to be a bit large, because sometimes if Samus is facing away from her opponent, her opponent will still be hit. The second jab is somewhat useless, since the hitstun in the initial jab is lacking. If, however, your opponent is somewhat in the air, the second jab is guaranteed to land. It has a decent knockback, unlike the initial jab.

 

[Mr9]

^^^^

this pretty much covers everything about it, at least everything i was going to say.....

C-Tier

 

[KillerJawz]

Hai guys, hope you had an amazing year, and I hope this one goes even better :3.

Anyway, we are beginning discussions again, and with full force, I want to see EVERYONE contribute, I don't care if you never use the move, just give what information you can.

We are now discussing Back Throw.

 

[Darkshadow7827]

JAB
The first jab is great for feeling out the opponent. It's like boxing, you can jab and play it safe. Jab1 is also great for jab cancels into another jab, fsmash, or dtilt. Jab2 absolutely sucks since the jab1 has no hitstun. I always get punished for jab2 unless they were in the air. I find jab cancelling multiple jab1's work better than jab2 for some reason.

Conclusion: Jab1 + Jab2 = C-tier

BACK THROW
With 7-8% dmg, I mainly use it as a gtfo throw. I don't find much use for it besides resetting spacing.

Conclusion: C-tier (I might come back and edit this. If not, I'll come back and delete this remak.)

 

[Mr9]

i only use b-throw for spacing also her throws, every now and again i can do something nice with it but for most part just spacing and throwing off the ledge.

D-tier

 

[JagaTranvo]

I only tend to use back throws if my back is facing the ledge and I want to throw people off

It maybe useful for confusing people if they think you have a habit of throwing down or up but that maybe it.

C-tier.

 

[NO-IDea]

I haven't contributed lately, simply because I got lazy tbh. Anyway, my 2 cents:

Back Throw:

I tend to always chain this to pivot grabs for some reason. Mostly because more than likely the pivot grab catches them off guard and therefore their DI messes up. It's a decent throw for follow-ups, in some ways better than Samus's down throw. 7% is great damage for a throw that resets spacing and allows for a continuation with her long z-air and slow but deadly (in the forceful response kind of way) missiles, not to mention any throw, along with pummeling, usually deals at least 10% damage while refreshing moves.

For the purpose b-throw was designed for, it does its task well.

Final Judgment: B Tier

Also, even though I wasn't here during the discussion for f-tilt, I hope my input will still be considered. It seems my opinion on the move vastly differs from the majority of Samus mains.

F-tilt:

Another move that does a 7%, along with her b-throw and jab 2. Except it's amazing. Huge range for not being disjointed and very low cooldown, not to mention different angles meaning more utility and a choice for different knockback and damage. Utility-wise, this attack is exceptional in Samus's moveset.

The metagame for Samus should progress to the point that using d-tilt as a juggler should be replaced with throws, and f-tilt should be abused as a spacing tool. Because of d-tilts huge cooldown, it should only be used as a punisher against other character's risky endeavors. F-tilt is surprisingly safe, long, fast and deals decent damage. The knockback is subpar at low percentages, but it's not hard for Samus to rack damage into +30%, where this move begins to shine and continues to throughout the entire stock.

It's awfully intimidating when Samus switches up between spamming projectiles and walking around with f-tilt. This in turn leads into further mind games, where throws, dash attack and d-air, otherwise very punishable moves, can land. Save the huge damage rackers/long cooldown moves for punishing. For simply playing safe and effective, F-tilt is your best friend here.

Final Judgment: A Tier

 

[RaigothDagon]

I disagree NOID, my opinion of the ftilt does not differ from yours. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we discussed that for very long, so we didn't get much input for it. Ftilt is amazing, it is one of Samus' best moves because of the main points you brought up, very good range, versatility, unexpected, and resets spacing. This is your best friend when fighting against Falco, because he just can't compete with our ftilt.

I think the main reason there were no comments on ftilt is because hardly anyone uses it. It is very hard to see the opportune time to use it. It is the in between attack of dtilt and fsmash, and does less damage, so you can't really blame anyone for not doing it. Also some people find it hard to execute a tilt, because they are running a lot or are nervous when they need to use it.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

I agree with Ftilt being amazing. Opponents never expect the downward Ftilt for the kill after being chased around with Bairs and CS and Dtilt.

 

[KillerJawz]

Sorry I havn't updated guys, I got back from college and literally just dropped on my bed <3. I'll update the throw immediatly.

WE ARE NOW DISCUSSING UP THROW

Oh and @Raigoth: I agree, most mains here NEVER use the move, I've watched countless videos of the Samus "zair" not punishing falco with ftilts in fusion. Granted he did win, but it could have been by a larger marjin if he had punished more effectivly.

 

[Mr9]

@ No-IDea: i had no idea you could do that much with the f-tilt

@Raigoth: your right i hardly use the f-tilt

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Yeah, it's right the F-Tilt is amazing, especially i use it downwards, cause the hitbox is much better than the normal ftilt (sometimes you dont hit charakters like kirby and there's a little hitbox on samus at the downwards ftilt, also if the enemy rolls in you, you hit him, too), and it does more damage. the only bad thing is, the range in front of samus is a little bit worse than the normal ftilt. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VaZ0pH6ExI -> use after uair -> the ftilt down

On Topic/ UThrow:
Variation and right spacing at close combat is the key to make Samus better than lowtier. Also it's the same way to the Throws. If the enemy is above you, you have always the better cards with samus (for example use the long grab, if he lands back on the ground).
But a special way for the Up-Throw i just know for battlefield: If the enemy has low damage (~20), do a Uthrow at the middle of the map, so the enemy probably will land on highest platform and if the enemy is over you on a platform do alaways one or two uairs, they are broken!

So another 2 cents, the edgeguard-game: Samus is awesome offstage, we all know that. And there are some great techniques like "A new/overlooked advanced technique: Tether Grab Cancel" (name of the thread), another VERY good technique is the reversed short hop -> zair on the edge - trick. I don't know the name anymore and i dont find the video lol. Anyway: This trick could revolutionize the edgeguard-game of samus.
The big deal is, you can grab the ledge very fast, so look at the enemy, for example he tries to grab the edge with a simple double jump **** him up with the technique so he must recover with the up-b and you can gimp him.
There are much other and more profound things yo can do with that, but to explain it, it's difficult for me, sry my english suck.

 

[Mr9]

^^^ that is a little bit of a broken hit box

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Okay, here is the compilation video, i hope you get some ideas and so on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esfY7Q01cgw

 

[NO-IDea]

What I expect Samus's metagame to progress to. A good video to showcase what Samus is capable of close range.

Although don't expect every player to air dodge towards you or space horribly. <3