Building For Battle (Samus' Move Tier List & Discussion.)

[Xyro77]

Now i understand why you think the way you do. From the video you showed me, i believe the players you play may be good(considering your region) but if you compare them to the players here in the USA they would be *****. Maybe it was just the video but from what i could tell, NONE of the characters you played did ANYTHING of what that character is meant to do.

 

[KillerJawz]

Now i understand why you think the way you do. From the video you showed me, i believe the players you play may be good(considering your region) but if you compare them to the players here in the USA they would be *****. Maybe it was just the video but from what i could tell, NONE of the characters you played did ANYTHING of what that character is meant to do.

2:14 - 2:17, that is how a Sheik plays.

Admitably, his opponents were not the best, but some of them were playing correctly. Besides, it is a Compliation, so his opponents key points were not shown, we can't really make a judgement of how good his regions players are unless we see THEM in action.

I have to admit, that was a superb showcase of her close range abilities, but I hope you also saw you got completely outclassed by that Sheik? I will however need to steal some of your follow ups, they were **** sexy <3

 

[Crystanium]

All I have to say about the u-throw is that no one likes being in the air. You are limited to what you could do while grounded.

 

[Mr9]

i dont use up throw s much as i should but when ever i do use it it always comes in handy....

so i really cant leave an oppinion on a place for it.

 

[Uffe]

You should ask yourself what throws do more damage if you haven't already. Also, an u-throw > pivot grab may or may not work. I'd check it out. It's pretty situational, though. Yoshi mains do this, though, so who knows?

 

[quiKsilverItaly]

Now i understand why you think the way you do. From the video you showed me, i believe the players you play may be good(considering your region) but if you compare them to the players here in the USA they would be *****. Maybe it was just the video but from what i could tell, NONE of the characters you played did ANYTHING of what that character is meant to do.

hm, yea in a way killerjawz is right ->

2:14 - 2:17, that is how a Sheik plays.

Admitably, his opponents were not the best, but some of them were playing correctly. Besides, it is a Compliation, so his opponents key points were not shown, we can't really make a judgement of how good his regions players are unless we see THEM in action.

i choosed parts of the matches, where i play better/them worse than normally, that thing said killerjawz pretty good.

thanks for critique, it's a fact that some of them airdodge too much and space in this scenes not so good.

but in a way i don't understand, why did my enemies "EVERYTHING" (what they are meant to do) wrong, xyro? you mean they played to aggressive? well metaknight for example could easily spam his b-moves (but thanks to the enemy he does not for aim), but the focus of the video should be samus. so look how plays the samus, you didn't talk something about..

i would be glad, if someone give me tips for my samus, too (other approaches, attacks you didn't see maybe)

 

[mountain_tiger]

Samus' UThrow is far from amazing, but it does have its uses. You can't properly follow-up with anything, but it puts your opponent directly above you, and in the vast majority of cases having your opponent above you is a favourable situation, since a number of characters have a limited number of option for defending themselves from below. Plus it does 9% damage, which isn't too bad.

It's C Tier material.

 

[KillerJawz]

i would be glad, if someone give me tips for my samus, too (other approaches, attacks you didn't see maybe)

Well, here are some short critiques that I can give:

*Use more zair, there were opportunities where you could have used zair without risk rather then chaining uairs

*Use more homing missles

*Try approaching with zair instead of uair, it's MUCH safer

*Don't be so aggressive o.o, your Samus is amazing but **** its aggressive, any Samus can get punished for that.

Although, your an amazing Samus. We actually stand in eachothers ways for best Samus in EU, are you planning on going to Dolls War?


Mountain, do you go to any monthlies? I don't believe I've seen you at EM or London

 

[ONAGA]

Xyro77 is right though. Im not saying im pro, but if you read about brawl and know what a player should do to fight with the brawlers correst style you can see they didnt do it very well. Just like you shouldnt only use Lighting with pikachu. ya its powerful, but its not what the focus thould be. more Bairs and such. Just throwing that out there, he isnt trying to be a bad guy, just saying you wouldnt be able to get away with as much against someone who plays the character correctly. My 2 cents.

 

[Xyro77]

Samus' UThrow is far from amazing, but it does have its uses. You can't properly follow-up with anything, but it puts your opponent directly above you, and in the vast majority of cases having your opponent above you is a favourable situation, since a number of characters have a limited number of option for defending themselves from below. Plus it does 9% damage, which isn't too bad.

It's C Tier material.

Well, here are some short critiques that I can give:

*Use more zair, there were opportunities where you could have used zair without risk rather then chaining uairs

*Use more homing missles

*Try approaching with zair instead of uair, it's MUCH safer

*Don't be so aggressive o.o, your Samus is amazing but **** its aggressive, any Samus can get punished for that.

Both of you. NICE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You were thinking the EXACT same thing i was.

 

[NO-IDea]

Both of you. NICE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You were thinking the EXACT same thing i was.

His way of being lazy and contributing at the same time. ^_^

Although unfortunately, I will agree with mountain's analysis also. Same judgment as well. Just don't forget you can take the time to charge after u-throw, which is probably its most important role.

 

[Xyro77]

Argh ok ill add my 2 cents.


Obviously, i think samus should be a calm, relaxing, mega defensive, campy character that should take her time in all aspects of her game. Silvers samus is the opposite and in HIS region it works. However, over here in the USA this stuff will only work on players who dont know how to shield. Please notice tudor and xyro and rohins aka the old timers. We generally do ALOT of ledge play and become rather defensive over all. We are considered the best(though i think no-dea is 2nd best now) and i wonder why?
Defensive, ledge play, camp. No where in there is agression. Im not saying agression is bad because it DOES have its place(on like ganon or jiggs) but i feel the future is NOT agression.


PS i will admit i did learn something from your video. Retreating nair to dtilt. Now that i WILL use and i thank you for.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Mountain, do you go to any monthlies? I don't believe I've seen you at EM or London

I don't really go to tourneys at all tbh. Mainly because of travel issues. I'm too young to drive, and there's no way anyone I know would drive me 80 odd miles just for a brawl tourney...

 

[KillerJawz]

Just like you shouldnt only use thunder with pikachu

Fixed .

Naw im JK, I know what your getting at, and thank you Xyro for that contribution (TOOK YOU LONG ENOUGH? HURRY AND DO THE BOOZER WRITE UP) Oh and your considered the best cause of your combo video. Albeit, it was sex.

We are now discussing Foward Throw

 

[ONAGA]

i like the Fthrow. i can get heavies with a full charge shot right after it. or use a small how if they are a little damaged. I get stuck alot of times with the Dthrow cause im used to Diddy and Falco. so its a hard habbit to break, but working the Fthrow in the game makes alot of good use. Great spacer if your following up with Zair or any missile. And of course if close to an edge, Fthrow and go for the quick spike. Sometimes i mix in a spider bomb on the edge and then Dtilt or whatever depending on the player. But a SHFF Uair over the edge (without loosing second jump) and than do a jump spike. Of course this is just my tactics and i dont play people at a pro level, but thats my 2 cents. Any help to improve my game as well lay it on me. And Xyro thank for the help. Very useful last night.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay Pick, thanks for the input. Guys, we are now discussing Down Throw

I would like to see more contributions guys....... (NO-IDea, IsmaR, Xyro, Mr9, Karcist) this is like her best throw we need more people contributing, heck, Pick doesnt even MAIN Samus, and he contributed D:.

 

[Xyro77]

D throw is nice for setting up for combos(u-air/fair/up+b) if the foe fails to airdodge. if they do airdodge its still good because the d throw put them in the air but not super high to where they have to time airdodge and move around. In other words, you can still use fair/uair/up+b after u read thier air dodge.

 

[NO-IDea]

D-throw:

Does a lousy 6%. Fortunately, it's great at low percents because no one ever wants to be on top in Brawl. *wink* U-air is alright, but f-air is better to bait air dodges. Up+b is okay, but if you miss, easy punishment. If you're really confident, follow-up with n-air or a pivot grab, since both of those options lead into more combo strings. Another thing to note, it's important to learn to buffer. If you're too slow, they can double jump away.

A combo starter at best, it loses it's luster at higher percentages, not to mention it's very susceptible to DI. Should be replaced with u-throw starting around 30% if you really want to send them above you. If you try d-throw from here, they'll double jump and reset their horizontal spacing, and from there Samus's only legit option to follow-up on is z-air. The fact that they know it's your only, albeit safe, option means they'll just air dodge and touch the ground. You could missile cancel, but then, again, u-throw is better since it does exactly the same thing as d-throw at those percentages but better.

In general, an okay move. Not the best combo starter, even though that's it's entire purpose, and not very useful once the momentum picks up though.

Final Judgment: Low C, High D Tier

 

[LanceStern]

Dthrow, if read correctly, can be followed up with a jumping charge shot or grounded charge shot -> grab/dashh attack. I love it at low percents but once i hit mid range its up throw, then back throw at high.

( D ) tier

Peachs' corrupt turnip when smash thrown at close range does 30%

 

[Karcist]

I haven't been contributing as much because I haven't mastered Samus' throws to the point where I have extensive combos to follow them up with. But I'll do my best:

Since we're on the topic of d throw, I use it as a combo starter like most others. I personally usually follow it up with u airs and screw attacks. The d throw is mainly what I use on battlefield since its harder to punish missed screw attacks. I'm going to have to put it in high D tier because I think it's situational based on the map.

Up throw: This is my main throw. I use the up throw because it deals the most damage, gets the opponent above you where Samus can juggle, and gives Samus the most time to charge the charge shot if need be. I'm going to put this throw in C tier because of it's more diverse usages.

Back throw: I use this throw situationally just to keep opponents away, usually by throwing them off the edge. This one is D tier for me because I don't think it's the best option most of the time.

I don't use the f throw really at all so my judgement isn't really useful. haha

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, thanks for those nice contributions, thats do the same for THE SMASHES *Cheer*

We are now discussing Up Smash

Spoiler

If even one of you say it's good against heavies or tall characters I'll seriously slap you :3

 

[Mr9]

its good against heavies and tall characters. what ells is obvious about it ohh its great on stages with platforms.....lol i'll be back to give my real opinion on it

 

[Karcist]

The more I use the u tilt, the more I find it to be superior to u smash. I really don't use it much because there are almost always better options. (at least it seems so to me)

 

[LanceStern]

I can't write as in-depth as NO IDea but I can give my two cents.

Up smash had the potential to be a great attack. With all hits you get over 20% damage, and because of it's multiple hits it's very hard for the opponent to air dodge it unlike most other antiair attacks from Samus. It's also a good mix up as an OOS option, and does nice damage to tall and heavy characters. It can be a surprising punish to people recovering from the ledge too.

But it's completely lost because it can be easily DI'ed out of and punished. So it's almost never used except to cover an opponents bad air dodge. But even then you'd probably be safer punishing with ftilt or zair rather than this because i'ts so easy to DI out.

Low D or E tier

 

[KillerJawz]

Im going to slap you guys now seriously D:

Up Smash imo is a TERRIBLE move, it is incredibly awful. I tested this with a Bowser, and he was able to DI out of it at 0%, taking a mere 4% damage iirc, and was then able to punish me with a fffair. You can DI out of this move with so much ease that it's ridiculous. It will like NEVER get all hits on ANY character if they DI even slightly up. Granted all of its hits do over 20%+, but that will NEVER happen unless the opponent DIs down. This move also has startup and ending lag.

It does have some nice range, and if the opponent can't DI for ****, it can punish airdodges or laggy aerials. It gives a nice slide as a hyphen smash but that is honestly it's only benefit. IMHO use literally ANY other move in the game, I honestly believe her upsmash is her worst move.

Low E Tier, High F Tier.

 

[NO-IDea]

U-smash:

Does 24% fresh. WTF!? Okay, all joking aside, this move is very situational and therefore both undervalued and overestimated at the same time. Some of the obvious uses stated so far are heavies and large characters. They can of course SDI out and punish, but as long as you catch them off guard, human reaction will be too slow and they'll take at least half before escaping. Which is 12%. Which isn't bad.

It does have other uses though. It's great for platform pressure when players begin to expect u-air and u-tilt. If you charge it, their shield diminishes, they roll or spot dodge (or even stay in shield), you release and deal decent damage WITHOUT any possibility of punishment. And best of all, it has a hitbox behind you and reaches the entirety of BF's platforms. Although do know this is easily avoided by jumping OoS. So you've got to condition them for this to work (using u-air, up+b, f-air). When it does work, it further mind ***** your opponent. Samus ftw

Another thing less commonly seen is smash canceling. That is, the shield knockback you get after smash attacking someone may cause you to fall off the platform/stage. U-smash seems to do this just as well as f-smash, leading into falling u-airs, which for Samus, any u-air leads to profit. On Lylat/BF, on those rare occasions both you and your opponent are on a platform, try it. You can even hyphen smash to position yourself to fall off. What are they going to do, shield it? Like you want them to? Bait and profit.

One thing I've personally found interest in is jump canceling u-smash. In other words, using it OoS without the 7 frame shield drop. I haven't found particular use for this yet, but I've seen legitimate uses of it with MKs and Wolfs. Perhaps this should be looked at...

Again, it's very situational and therefore overlooked in today's metagame. For now, judgment is low, but it may rise in the future.

Final judgment:

Low E, High F Tier

 

[R1OT]

u-smash is trash. do not use it. ever


this is XYRO on another account

 

[KillerJawz]

u-smash is trash. do not use it. ever


this is XYRO on another account

LOL. Before you wouldn't contribute, now your doing it on other accounts ;o. Im impressed

 

[Karcist]

I was waiting to assign it to a tier because I wasn't sure if it had any uses that I overlooked. I'm going to have to put my vote to F tier though, it just seems to have no uses beyond a few situational ones on battlefield.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

This is a pretty useful guide since i strive to get alot better at Samus ^^

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, thanks for your input, I only put in the relevant information as usual, but if your information isn't up there, it's because NOID covered it all o.o.

We are now discussing Forward Smash

Oh and P.S: Don't feel afraid to talk about tilted.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Was gonna do my input on up smash, but it appears we've changed to forward smash now. Not that it matters since I was basically going to say it was a very bad move other than for platform pressure. Anyway...

FSmash is, IMO, easily in the top two of Samus' most reliable killing moves alongside DTilt (which one is better is debatable). Its start-up is fast for a smash attack, at 10 frames, and the range is not too bad, so it isn't extremely hard to connect with. What's cool about is that unlike DTilt, you can angle it to allow more versatility and a higher chance of connecting with it. Angling it down can hit crouching opponents or act as an edgeguarding tool, while angling it up acts as an anti-air move. It's quite weak by smash attack standards, but it's one of Samus' most powerful moves in terms of knockback, especially if angled upwards.

All in all, FSmash is one of Samus' best killing tools, even if it's not as effective as it was in Melee. IMO, it should be in high B tier.

 

[-Cross-]

Definitely a kill move for Samus. Unfortunately the range is pretty bad. Not only in terms of horizontal range but also the fact that the hitbox seems to be strictly limited to Samus' arm. I guess there is no real way to prove this without having the code which shows hit bubbles, but the fact that Samus misses at point blank range with her non-angled f-smash against some crouching opponents makes it seem like the only explanation. Regardless, I personally favor the down tilted version because of the lower angle knockback which sets up a better opportunity to gimp. But since it reduces range I usually just do the non-angled one.

Although this may be one of Samus' kill moves, its overall utility and strength as a move by itself is weak. I would rank this in bottom of B tier or top of C tier. Reason being, Ftilt and Screw Attack which are bottom of B-tier definitely rank higher than f-smash when comparing their overall usefulness.

 

[KillerJawz]

Samus's Fsmash is a very interesting move that can be used for a VARIETY of things, ranging from killing, to setting up gimps. Her fsmash can be tilted either down or up, or left as it as. Tilting the fsmash upwards gives it 1% more damage (14%), and more knockback, making it one of her best kill moves, HOWEVER, this also limits your options against small characters, since it can oftenly miss them, it's better for tall characters. Normal fsmash is a great kill move for smalls, it will ALWAYS hit them, and is a great damage racker on heavies. Tilted down fsmash is the weakest of the three types, however, it is BY FAR the most useful for gimps. It can knock opponents into a position where you can missle/zair gimp pretty easily without any major risk.

My major concern with this move however, is the ending lag. Now granted, for a smash, it comes out quite quickly, but the ending lag on it is pretty bad, and if the move is not spaced correctly, can be punished SEVERLY. I tend to use fsmash when im SURE it will land, or I won't be punished. The move has nice range, but nothing over the top, there is no disjoint on this move.

My BIGGEST concern, and this is major, is the fact that the move will MISS some characters when they are behind the cannon of your gun, I don't know why this happens, but it will occasionally miss, so I honestly prefer down tilt over it.

With all that said, its a multipurpose killer for Samus, with some a few flaws. Bottom of B imo.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, thanks again for your input, would have been nice if some actual Samus mains contributed but w/e, we covered the majority at least

The final smash we are now discussing is down smash, come on guys, this is a very interesting move, that's get EVERYONE contributing.

 

[Karcist]

I feel that a lot of the trouble with the f smash is that Samus has a hard time setting it up. She floats a lot and moves slowly through the air, it doesn't work with jab mix ups well and to top it off it's short ranged. I give this move C tier even if it is one of her best KO options it still is pretty inefficient.

The down smash is a very situational move. It comes out at a pretty average speed and doesn't deal that much damage, but it can punish rolls if it's timed right. It can also KO at high percentages. Lastly, unless powershielded it knocks people too far too be punished easily. Top of the D tier for this move.

 

[Mr9]

i dont know how i feel about down smash...
its not a bad move, and if you hit it in the right spot it can kill but over all theres just to much lag and its not as fast as some other options, i usually use it for my last resort kill move so its always fresh...

i do like it on certain stages like PS, BF, and others because if timed right at the edge it can cause a stage spike and that always throws people off...

D

 

[KillerJawz]

Samus's Dsmash IMHO is a SERIOUSLY underrated move.

This move has two hitboxes, each of them have their own percentages (14%-16% damage for front hit, depending where abouts on the leg you hit and 13%-14% for the backhit) The move has a SUPERB launch angle and can be great for setting up uair strings. At lower percentages, this move combos nicely after dair, giving you over 26% damage and is very hard to avoid. Fast falled uair to dsmash is VERY close to a frame trap since this particular smash is her FASTEST smash in terms of first hit (hits on frame 9) This move has nice range and provides ALOT of shield pushback/pressure on lighter characters shields.

This move does however have noticeable ending lag so it can be punished pretty easily if it's powershielded or it misses. The move cannot KO at reasonable percentages so it's strictly for racking up damage. If this move had less ending lag, it would definatly make A Tier for me, however since its so punishable, I have to put it in C Tier, Below Up Tilt.

 

[IsmaR]

Really wish I'd contribute more. Never find the time, being busy half the time and tired the other half sucks.

Anyway, KJ's last post sums up all I wanted to say about this move. The move isn't severely underrated, but considering how underrated Samus herself is around here/in general, it's pretty bad. I particularly love using it on stages with bottom platforms that can be passed through, such as Halberd, Delfino, and(wait for it) Brinstar(doubles as useful there because it also helps break the platforms easier, since it's two hits and has decent range). It is considered one of those desperation killing moves, just slightly better than D-air on a grounded opponent and most dulled moves(which by then, they shouldn't be living through much anyway). Charged up, however, the front hit is fairly good at killing, but good luck connecting with it with it.

The back hit is, as pointed out already, very good for reading and punishing rolls, useful as a gtfo move, and can produce some mindgame stage spikes. Lastly, both hits are good for shield pressure. Everything else I wanted to cover was summed up in the last few posts.

I'll agree with C.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys thanks for your input once again, NOID I SEE YOU DIDNT INPUT D:!!!!!. DON'T THINK I DIDN'T SEE YOU WHOREING THIS MOVE ON WIFAIL.

Now we begin our aerials, starting with the Neutral Aerial

EVERYBODY PLEASE CONTRIBUTE.