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[Dart!]

^ what i'm talking about with it being very objective.

i could refute all of that, but in the end i'd be arguing objectively.

just fyi, blunted object CP'd and beat m2k's marth on DK64

Excellent edit

in the end CPing stages is all up to the player unless the stage tips the scales heavily for one character.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edited post because i was using objective when i meant to use subjective.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

That seems to be a generally good assessment of Marth on CP stages but I'm talking about specific matchups.

I guess its my fault for not being specific enough.

Vs Peach and Puff: Is there a clear cut stage you should ban out of Brinstar, DL64, or KJ64?

Vs ICs: How viable are brinstar and Rainbow Cruise as CP stages?

Are any of the 3 a good CP against Falco?

I like banning Pokemon Stadium because of the low ceiling against Fox

Against puff, I mindlessly pick Dreamland just cause I heard it called Mangoland and saw why he likes it. Could be some better bans...

Against Marth, I hate Yoshi's Story. It's like cramming two sausages in a keyhole. gayfest.

 

[Dart!]

I like banning Pokemon Stadium because of the low ceiling against Fox

Against puff, I mindlessly pick Dreamland just cause I heard it called Mangoland and saw why he likes it. Could be some better bans...

Against Marth, I hate Yoshi's Story. It's like cramming two sausages in a keyhole. gayfest.

I find that ironic. being a marth i would want stages like yoshis and fod but in dittos those are my first ones to strike XDDDD

 

[KAOSTAR]

how do you beat silent wolf with marth?

no joke, how do you fight ultra aggressive technical foxes with good spacing without being m2k? I cannot seem to approach or deal with pressure thats over 9000.

 

[Staco]

how do you beat silent wolf with marth?

no joke, how do you fight ultra aggressive technical foxes with good spacing without being m2k? I cannot seem to approach or deal with pressure thats over 9000.

Avoid the pressure.

Use clever dashdances etc.

Against Falco I had the same problem.
Now Ive got some cool tricks for example if they laser me and hit me and I see them approaching I just run away after the laser hits and they jump into nothing.
When Ive got my shield open close to the edge and they approach and pressure Ill just roll through them.

And space better than them.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

retreating aerials outta shield or just from standing seems to work really well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmiyN-3tS2c

 

[KAOSTAR]

**** it ill just play a diff character lol.

 

[stelzig]

When Ive got my shield open close to the edge and they approach and pressure Ill just roll through them.

And space better than them.

Might wanna be a bit careful with that as that is the easiest roll to predict.

 

[Tee ay eye]

@kaostar:

I used to feel this way against Axe

Just remember that your attacks outrange his. Well, I'm pretty sure you get the idea of what to do, but it's just you have to play a lot to truly learn it. Try retreating aerials (fair and nair) and other ways of escaping. Also, maybe you're doing the same thing over and over, which is useless if he catches on. If he catches on to one tactic, it'll probably open him up for something else. I'm sure you get this, but idk, the ability just comes w/ experience.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You got this, Ka0star.

 

[Niko45]

Retreating fair is fantastic against super aggro fox.

 

[TemPesT-]

this is a little old, talking about the uses of upb vs spaceys.

i saw tink doing this on kels

fthrow tech chase reverse upb, and it was ****.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol, I love you guys.

I guess I just need to work in creating space while getting pressured. I just wish there was a way to practice WDoos without actually playing against ppl.

I can keep from gettin punished on the offensive, but it seems like I just cant do **** once I get hit. SW combos too well. its hard to SDI the drill or the shine far enough away to get a grab. I think I try to act to much during shield stun.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Lightshielding is sooo important when space animals are shield pressuring you. God, I hate getting shield stabbed.

 

[AustinRC]

Lol, I love you guys.

I guess I just need to work in creating space while getting pressured. I just wish there was a way to practice WDoos without actually playing against ppl.

I can keep from gettin punished on the offensive, but it seems like I just cant do **** once I get hit. SW combos too well. its hard to SDI the drill or the shine far enough away to get a grab. I think I try to act to much during shield stun.

WDoos will work most the time but there are people who can get around it. What you can do that is a little easier vs most spacies that pillar or sh nair shine on your sheild is you can hold back while sheilding and jump and do fair. This catches a TON of players off guard. A problem you might have is how hard you hit the joystick while sheilding it might make you start a roll and then have them hit you out of it. Its really important to know how much sheild stun some moves give. Versus ganon its HELLA important but thats off topic. I hope this helped.

 

[Fade2Nothing]

uhhh this is always something ive been really really embarassed about
and no im not trolling im dead serious but
i cant utilt x_x i try to but i always jump or usmash any tips guys?
im serious

 

[KAOSTAR]

Actually it did lol.

Ive been thinking about some stuff. Ive been dashing less and less dashing. I need to dash instead of WD as my initial movement.

I get shield poked sometime but nothing unbearable, I can usually get away from the pressurepbut its incredibily hard to get out of combos.

Drill shine into edge guard like all day. Im struggling the most with getting out of drill shines all the way across the stage(there are some nair/bair mixups as well).

I can pretty good survival DI, but I dont SDI in shield or the drill or shine very well. Any tips on creating space from getting drilled/shined?

 

[Bob Money]

Yeah Light shield to shield grab works decently well . Or light shield to regular shield etc.

If they drill shine you and are not perfect you can buffer a roll using the c-stick to get out of the situation. Granted you don;t want to do this all the time, it's an option to throw in there once in awhile.

Also Crouch canceling to downsmash can be a good tool if the fox is above 40 percent.

 

[Bob Money]

uhhh this is always something ive been really really embarassed about
and no im not trolling im dead serious but
i cant utilt x_x i try to but i always jump or usmash any tips guys?
im serious

Tilt your stick to the right or left upper corners instead of straight up, work your way from the right or left then slightly up until in becomes comfortable. That pressure that you put on stick you will get used to eventually. Practice with like Luigi or something that way you can see the difference between an upward angled forward tilt and an uptilt
its nothing to be embarrassed about , its just that your manly hands are too powerful to do soft things with a video game controller.

 

[NJzFinest]

What do you guys think about Marth vs Puff?

Do you agree with Cactuar (60-40 Marth)?

 

[ChivalRuse]

I have trouble reconciling myself with people who say it's in Marth's favor. I keep thinking back to the first match of this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ET0CdOAcU

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^m2k played bad and got beat? must mean puff >> marth.







marth > puff.

 

[Dart!]

I have trouble reconciling myself with people who say it's in Marth's favor. I keep thinking back to the first match of this set.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9ET0CdOAcU

why is it everytime someone thinks jiggs is better than marth they throw up some M2k getting beat by puff video?

 

[Niko45]

What do you guys think about Marth vs Puff?

Do you agree with Cactuar (60-40 Marth)?

I think if you go back a month or so in this thread, somebody suggested that Cactuar thinks its 60-40 Marth, and then Cactuar responded with "wow I never said that/if I did that's horribly outdated."

It's definitely Marth =< Puff imo. You have no edgeguard vs automatic edgeguard, you have character who in actuality rivals Marths range with bair + aerial movement, Marth has no reliablie kill move that's reasonably safe, oh and Jiggs has a OHKO move that you need to constantly be wary of.

I think just as quickly as people want to point out that M2K's marth gets ***** by puff, people are just as dismissive in saying "oh m2k just played bad". Yea, ok, m2k playing bad is better than most everybody on their best day. Not to say its a horrible matchup for Marth, but to say that Marth actually is advantaged is completely out of the question imo.

 

[Kaffei]

What do you guys think about Marth vs Puff?

Do you agree with Cactuar (60-40 Marth)?

No
You can barely edge guard Jiggs, you can't combo her after like 40%, you can't gimp her at all, & marth's fair only slightly out ranges her bair so it's not overly difficult for her to get inside marth and if you make like 1 bad mistake you get rested

 

[Nø Ca$h]

i think marth vs puff is 50-50. marth CAN edge gaurd jiggs(depending on the stage) somewhat.

its hard to explain but if ur able to space fairs to keep her out of ur sword than shel stay outa the air. and marth ***** jiggs on ground(as long as u have a good OoShield game)

it would be 60-40 marth if jiggs was a little worse at spacing.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth > puff guys

Marth's sword is longer than everything puff has except bair which is equal. Marth has better movement and speed in every catagory.

If i wanted to, i could find ken or azen matches vs sheik and show marth >= sheik because of them winning. Its not about players and how they fair in the matchup, its about the fundamentals of the characters pitted against each other.

 

[Nø Ca$h]

no puff has better airial movent than marth, making the matchup even. marth wins on FD, YS, and possibly FoD though.

 

[Kaffei]

Marth > puff guys

Marth's sword is longer than everything puff has except bair which is equal. Marth has better movement and speed in every catagory.

If i wanted to, i could find ken or azen matches vs sheik and show marth >= sheik because of them winning. Its not about players and how they fair in the matchup, its about the fundamentals of the characters pitted against each other.

Jiggs has better aerial mobility than Marth and the fact that she can whip out her bair and then PULL BACK makes her bair camping much more safe.

rest is also really stupid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEHy5liyyFY 1:05 one tiny missed grab costs you a stock

good thing for marth his fair comes out on frame 4 and jiggs bair frame 9 iirc

 

[Nø Ca$h]

for the puff bair vs marth fair spacing debate..

marth's fair hits on frame 4 when puff's bair hits on frame 8. jiggs can start it up when out of range and come in range by the 8th frame though.. but thats why u move forward when she moves away. if u space well enough she should trade hits at best. also, vertical spacing is important too because marth can ff to the ground if jiggs gets to high putting u under her so u can utilt or uair.

 

[Niko45]

for the puff bair vs marth fair spacing debate..

marth's fair hits on frame 4 when puff's bair hits on frame 8. jiggs can start it up when out of range and come in range by the 8th frame though.. but thats why u move forward when she moves away. if u space well enough she should trade hits at best. also, vertical spacing is important too because marth can ff to the ground if jiggs gets to high putting u under her so u can utilt or uair.

Exactly, except then Jiggs might actually decide to catch you following her and bair in place/bair approach. The payoff from her catching you out of this is excellent, meanwhile the punishment for jiggs being to aggressive against marth's fair is almost non-existant, so good luck trying to perfectly space and time (DON'T forget about timing...Marth's hitboxes are extremely short) Jiggs movement 20+ times per match when she can afford to take risks and you really can't.

Like I said, Cactuar definitely already dismissed the notion that he thought Marth had the advantage earlier in this thread at some point. If people want to argue about advantage puff or even matchup, fine, but there's no way Marth is advantaged in this matchup. Trading hits with Puff is a horrible outcome for Marth by the way.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Marth > puff guys

Marth's sword is longer than everything puff has except bair which is equal. Marth has better movement and speed in every catagory.

If i wanted to, i could find ken or azen matches vs sheik and show marth >= sheik because of them winning. Its not about players and how they fair in the matchup, its about the fundamentals of the characters pitted against each other.

yea, hella mad true.

Lol but ppl dont see fundamentals of characters pitted against each other. The metagame of marth equals m2k lol.

 

[Kaffei]

yea, hella mad true.

Lol but ppl dont see fundamentals of characters pitted against each other. The metagame of marth equals m2k lol.

I'm not even talking about m2k being bad at the MU
I just don't see Marth have an advantage at all.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually its wrong to move forward at all. When spacing as marth you want to move forward on the ground and retreat in the air, because of how priority and hitboxes work as well as avoiding accidental miss-spacing that can't be fixed if you're already moving forward in the air.

Marth > puff, i wrecked kels' puff last time he tried that **** on me. Mango and hbox make it look like its in their favor or equal because THEY ARE GREAT PLAYERS AND KNOW THE MATCHUP WELL

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think if you go back a month or so in this thread, somebody suggested that Cactuar thinks its 60-40 Marth, and then Cactuar responded with "wow I never said that/if I did that's horribly outdated."

It's definitely Marth =< Puff imo. You have no edgeguard vs automatic edgeguard, you have character who in actuality rivals Marths range with bair + aerial movement, Marth has no reliablie kill move that's reasonably safe, oh and Jiggs has a OHKO move that you need to constantly be wary of.

I think just as quickly as people want to point out that M2K's marth gets ***** by puff, people are just as dismissive in saying "oh m2k just played bad". Yea, ok, m2k playing bad is better than most everybody on their best day. Not to say its a horrible matchup for Marth, but to say that Marth actually is advantaged is completely out of the question imo.

This is my stance entirely. M2K plays a very relevant Marth, and I see no reason why his Marth vs Puff shouldn't be representative of the matchup at the highest level.

Edit: Sveet, congratulations on beating Kels' puff, which is obviously the cream of the crop.
/disdain

 

[Dart!]

This is my stance entirely. M2K plays a very relevant Marth, and I see no reason why his Marth vs Puff shouldn't be representative of the matchup at the highest level.

Edit: Sveet, congratulations on beating Kels' puff, which is obviously the cream of the crop.
/disdain

If you think M2K being similar to what the metagame for marth is you are mistaken. He's broken against spacies not named mango. he won't play marth against falcon. His marth is crazy with grabs and has robotic like spacing but gets beat by people who think outside the box.

 

[Palpi]

lol..if there were only ways to incorperate player mistakes into match ups on paper =]

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Edit: Sveet, congratulations on beating Kels' puff, which is obviously the cream of the crop.

Kels- A national level player with a large amount of game knowledge and experience against some of the best players in the world.

Me- Basically nobody.

One of the following are true:

By your inui logic, i'm better than kels because the matchup is even or in favor of puff and i wrecked him.

By your inui logic, marth >> puff because i beat a player who is better than me in the matchup.

Your inui logic is flawed and you need think about the matchups in another way.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Inui logic has nothing to do with character match-ups. It's a fallacious method people use to attempt to prove that they're better than some person X owing to the fact that they beat person A who beat person B who beat ... who beat person X.

Kels isn't a puff main, so no matter who he beats or loses to, it's not something we can accurately gauge the match-up by.