Category Character Tier Lists

[ballin4life]

Can someone give an example of crazy jiggs combos please?

 

[SheerMadness]

I think Yoshi requires more button mastery than Fox, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I input 6 actions everytime I do a DJC'ed aerial (5 for nairs). I doubt any fox, in a real competitive match, inputs more actions than I do with Yoshi.

But again that doesn't mean Yoshi is more technical. I'd say it's pretty close. I main both chars, but I don't strive to be technical with Fox. If there were someone out there who consistently incorporated all of Fox's techy stuff Fox would probably have the edge.

 

[blaze3927]

for ness and fox, the running pivot fastfall lag cancel?
and then other normal pivots/ff/LC
link ledge cancelled pivot up b
jiggs above kirby for combos? i see more jiggs combos than kirby in games

 

[th3kuzinator]

for ness and fox, the running pivot fastfall lag cancel?
and then other normal pivots/ff/LC
link ledge cancelled pivot up b
jiggs above kirby for combos? i see more jiggs combos than kirby in games

What is running pivot fastfall lag cancel?

I dont think the ledgecancelled upb is viable in game. If its just the for the hitbox, you can do the move non pivoted and if you are trying to edgehog, turning around and SH FF is so much easier and reliable. I suppose if you are running towards the ledge and wont make the normal edgehog, this may be a possibility.

Kirby has more combo POTENTIAL than jiggs. With floaties, jiggs is fairly limited and has trouble starting z2d on some of them. Kirby can start chaining any character from 0 and get them to a pretty high percent with just one move.

 

[thegreginator]

Kirby should be lower in Combos and Recovery. Jiggs is better at both,

 

[Sempiternity]

Man, if I could consistently do this...

[yt]E82TNOFtkz0[/yt]

Okay, since tags aren't working: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E82TNOFtkz0

 

[th3kuzinator]

In a certain view point, jiggs might have better combos than kirby.

How does jiggs have a better recovery??

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Fair chains work on floaties (i'm not good at them though)

 

[Battlecow]

I like the idea of this; organizing disjointed thoughts that a lot of people had into concrete lists. One thing we should clarify is what skill level this is intended for. Obviously high level play, but the argument over fox/yoshi for technicality brings a good point into question: Just how high level? Those TAS platform drop thingys, for example, are technically possible, but I don't see them being implemented any time soon. Does the shinebreak fall into the same category? The parry? I don't think either of those do, but there's still too much gray area here for my liking. What about link's bomb recovery? His pivot-UpB edgehog?

 

[blaze3927]

woops, not supposed to be lag cancel on the end, too tired at the time xD
just that thing where fox and ness can pivot/ff/LEDGE grab wehn there out of there dash and flat out running

 

[th3kuzinator]

I like the idea of this; organizing disjointed thoughts that a lot of people had into concrete lists. One thing we should clarify is what skill level this is intended for. Obviously high level play, but the argument over fox/yoshi for technicality brings a good point into question: Just how high level? Those TAS platform drop thingys, for example, are technically possible, but I don't see them being implemented any time soon. Does the shinebreak fall into the same category? The parry? I don't think either of those do, but there's still too much gray area here for my liking. What about link's bomb recovery? His pivot-UpB edgehog?

The idea I had in mind when creating this list was to order the characters by technical skill that was viable is a match situation.

Fox has shine shield break (part of multishine) which is 10x harder than parry IMO.

As for link, his bomb recovery is actually not that technical. Imo it is just a flashy technique that will never work at high levels of play. I landed it once against this scrub and was like coolface.jpg but the fact of the matter is that when the bomb turns you around, all the opponent has to do is hold shield and then fsmash you.

As for his dash pivot edgehog, this is somewhat technical. Though it could be used in high level play, a normal edgehog is 100x more consistent.

If you guys do not like this method and wish to re-order the characters based on how hard it is to do every specific advanced tech known about the character then that is something we should discuss.

 

[asianaussie]

bomb recovery never ever works, almost any angle of recoverable distance won't benefit much from a bomb recovery without absurdly good DI. Because you get turned around with the bomb recovery you lose the edge-grab, and as such without inhuman DI the distance gained is almost equalised if you count the ability of the normal recovery to grab the edge

if you ever succeed with a bomb recovery then chances are you could've gotten back with a normal recovery anyway, and bomb recovery doesn't add on any defence anyway

pivot up-b edgehog...only advantage it offers is not having to short hop for a ledgehog after the hit (if you aren't going to use the hit from up-b then just pivot ledgehog or normal ledgehog, the risk of you missing and instead doing a ledge-boost up-b to your death isn't worth the flashy factor)

 

[th3kuzinator]

if you ever succeed with a bomb recovery then chances are you could've gotten back with a normal recovery anyway, and bomb recovery doesn't add on any defence anyway

pivot up-b edgehog...only advantage it offers is not having to short hop for a ledgehog after the hit (if you aren't going to use the hit from up-b then just pivot ledgehog or normal ledgehog, the risk of you missing and instead doing a ledge-boost up-b to your death isn't worth the flashy factor)

Could not have said it any better myself.

Though I must admit a technique that has GAINED me distance but still has not really helped me that much is

1. You are hit far away with a bomb already in your hand

2. use second jump

3. throw boomerang behind you

4. smash DI up and towards the stage like mad until the bomb goes of

5. gain some pretty good distance

6. upb

7. get edgeguarded

I think this is at least worth a try, where I have pretty much given up on the regular bomb recovery altogether.

 

[asianaussie]

that's not so much a technique as a form of desperation. usually happens after being punished for bad spacing and getting smacked right after pulling out a bomb...nobody keeps bombs around because it disables like all your A moves :\

you forgot about using up-b right before the bomb goes off so it blows up just as you reach the top of your up-b (optimally, probably not likely) for maximum vertical distance

this also fails if you aren't hit high enough, though it has saved me a couple times in friendlies

the worst part is the opponent will definitely see you trying something if you have a bomb when hit out...

 

[th3kuzinator]

As I said, link's options during recovery are pretty limited...still has a better chance than ness though

I remember awhile ago when I used to think ness' recovery was the worst, but not because of its inherent flaws, but because it was too difficult for me to even execute the move during total neophite phase.

 

[The Star King]

Even if you don't have absurd DI, bomb jump can be a better option than a spin attack at really high percents. But yeah, it's really situational.

Also, when trying to up-b with a bomb in hand throwing a boomerang backwards doesn't help because the direction you're hit in doesn't depend on where you were facing BEFORE the up-b, it depends on where you're facing DURING the up-b (Link is spinning so he's rapidly facing left, right, left, right). You can get hit in either direction by the bomb no matter the direction you were facing.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Also, when trying to up-b with a bomb in hand throwing a boomerang backwards doesn't help because the direction you're hit in doesn't depend on where you were facing BEFORE the up-b, it depends on where you're facing DURING the up-b (Link is spinning so he's rapidly facing left, right, left, right). You can get hit in either direction by the bomb no matter the direction you were facing.

Thats what I remember thinking the first time when listing the steps but cheeseball called me out on not using the upb before the bomb went off, so I thought I was mistaken.

 

[asianaussie]

mm...so it's all up to chance then?

or insane timing, whatever

 

[Battlecow]

OK, bad examples with link. Mea culpa. Nevertheless, do you see what I'm saying?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Yes I do bcow.

Using whatever method you prefer, what would your techskill list be?

Also what does everyone think about kirbys recovery being moved down? A lot of people have agreed with this. Some even say that jiggs' should be higher.

Thoughts?

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I personally think Jiggs' recovery is better overall, as most moves that send you off the edge send you high (ie most grabs). And everyone seems to agree jiggly is better than kirby recovering from above.

 

[th3kuzinator]

I feel like when recovering from high up, jiggs obviously has more options about getting back to the middle of the stage (works better on larger stages) but against a character with a good uair (like falcon) I would much rather have kirby's dair to eventually get me down rather than jiggs'

of course you can just bait them with pound and such and ff a dair after he misses.

Basically below the stage id rather have kirby
above the stage and far away id rather have jiggs
physically above the stage - kirby

 

[P D]

for technical skill:
what about drop canceling?
links invisible bomb? that can do some weird stuff lol. note sure if it can be regarded as technical tho

 

[th3kuzinator]

for technical skill:
what about drop canceling?
links invisible bomb? that can do some weird stuff lol. note sure if it can be regarded as technical tho

invisible bomb is not that technical IMO. Just requires a bit of timing which gets easy with practice (not that i would know, I never use the tech during a real match)

Drop canceling can be done by every character except link so if anything this would only move him down a bit.

I can do DC pretty consistently on 1/4 speed, about 30% on 1/2 speed like 5% on 2/3 speed and I have maybe pulled it off once or twice on full speed (not in a match of course).

 

[P D]

i just was just pointing out a few i didnt see in this thread over my first glance. i wasnt trying to support link.

link for fail tech tier lol.

 

[th3kuzinator]

i just was just pointing out a few i didnt see in this thread over my first glance. i wasnt trying to support link.

link for fail tech tier lol.

Yeah, 11 years ago the developers could forsee that in the distant future smash64 would get so technical that players could drop cancel on command. Basically its all an elaborate plot to sandbag link.

 

[Sempiternity]

I think Kirby and Jiggs are pretty much equal. All of Kirby's jumps are the same height for the most part, whereas Jiggly sorta tapers off as she runs out of breath and has no Up+B. Kirby has a nasty D+air which wards off most attacks from below, and Jiggly has amazing horizontal air speed and pound. All in all, they sorta equalize in the end. For me, at least.

 

[The Star King]

I would give the edge to Kirby, he has to better priority aerials to defend himself with, he has the Final Cutter and his jumps aren't consecutively weaker like Puff's are. Puff has the pound to help with horizontal distance but Kirby's better jumps compensate for it somewhat.

 

[dch111]

Basically its all an elaborate plot to sandbag link.

Basically this. They didn't like what level 9 Link was doing to the other CPUs, particularly Kirby. This is just one in a long line of Link-shafting initiatives HAL Labs took, including a bizarre episode in which an unneeded value, "X-Air Resistance" was created for the sole purpose of giving Link none of it. They sure had a riot with that one.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I like the idea of this; organizing disjointed thoughts that a lot of people had into concrete lists. One thing we should clarify is what skill level this is intended for. Obviously high level play, but the argument over fox/yoshi for technicality brings a good point into question: Just how high level? Those TAS platform drop thingys, for example, are technically possible, but I don't see them being implemented any time soon. Does the shinebreak fall into the same category? The parry? I don't think either of those do, but there's still too much gray area here for my liking. What about link's bomb recovery? His pivot-UpB edgehog?

The only player I have ever played that used platform cancels properly was Boomfan with Link's d-air. But it is very rare and I do not think that TAS things should be included. It is the same with me not including Falcon's up b cancel from one of Jpheal's videos or Link's perfect DI bomb recovery.

I have seen people use shine as part of a shield break but never alone.

In terms of Parry's, many Yoshi's know how to parry moves. Look at Sheer for a great example.

I have never seen Link's bomb recovery used well either. I have seen people do a pivot up b though.

 

[dandan]

maddy is the only one i know that can shield break using shines alone consistently.

 

[th3kuzinator]

The only player I have ever played that used platform cancels properly was Boomfan with Link's d-air. But it is very rare and I do not think that TAS things should be included. It is the same with me not including Falcon's up b cancel from one of Jpheal's videos or Link's perfect DI bomb recovery.

I see Isai use it all the time in his videos with link. I have used it plenty of times unintentionally recovering with his upb on the edge of the green tent on hyrule.

Its not that hard to platform cancel with link at all. I am sure many link mains have gotten this tech down.

 

[ballin4life]

Platform cancel or ledge cancel? Ledge cancel is where the landing lag gets cancelled because you slide off a ledge. Platform cancel is where you are on a slanted platform you can drop through and you drop and immediately do an aerial so it gets cancelled and you stay on the platform.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Platform cancel or ledge cancel? Ledge cancel is where the landing lag gets cancelled because you slide off a ledge. Platform cancel is where you are on a slanted platform you can drop through and you drop and immediately do an aerial so it gets cancelled and you stay on the platform.

You are right about ledge canceling, I just followed up on what Koro said because I assumed thats what he meant.

He could not have meant drop canceling because in his reference he used boomfan's link and link cannot drop cancel.

Also ballin, platform canceling is when you are shielding on the egde of a platform and get hit. You get knocked off and can attack instantly.

The expert technique on a slanted down ledge is drop canceling.

 

[The Star King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TBfiEuzYAc The description says American Link can't do it but in fact he can on the right-most slope of Peach's Castle, which I think is the steepest drop-through platform in the game. I've done it before and I'm actually planning a Link combo with a drop-cancel nair lol

I don't think platform-canceling is when you shield near a ledge and get pushed off, that doesn't even require a platform. I've seen platform-cancel refer to two things before, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORiX3B9aiaE#t=01m07s (Melee only)

Or these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi23stYJR_4#t=0m33s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqVwizKQjyA (Melee and Brawl). Neither of them are in Smash64.

 

[ballin4life]

That's edge shielding (basically a form of edge cancelling anyway). And yes I should have said platform drop cancel. I was going based off what battlecow said: "TAS platform drop thingys [sic]"

 

[th3kuzinator]

so wait link can drop cancel?!

this needs to be updated in the compiled techs list

*goes to practice at 1/4 speed*

edit: got it first try >_>

forget my previous argument, link can dc on peach's castle.

 

[Kaffei]

What's jiggs "teleport"?

 

[th3kuzinator]

what it is: simply a glitch. Even TASers do not fully understand why this happens and it simply can not be explained with any previous logic we have learned from the game. I read somewhere that the teleport lasts as long as the character's Pre-Jump animation. IIRC, jiggly is in this state longer before she jumps and therefore has a longer and more drastic teleport than samus and fox (what I dont understand is if its simply the pre jump animation, why cant all characters do it?)

how to do it:
1. Be in a full run (not initial dash) with either jiggs fox or samus.
2. Mash the control stick in the opposite direction as you are running
3. Jump 3 frames later.

The close you get to 3 frames, the more drastic the teleport looks. jumping on frames 2 and 4 get a smaller teleport.

You can either
(A) cancel the teleport with a usmash which looks like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdggE9_qbiI

(B) Cancel the teleport with UPB, which is a terrible idea with fox or samus. With jiggs it can produce a gigantic slide if canceled with sing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gH4z7gRpLY&feature=related

(C) Just use the jump and do an arial.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCkRtKck30U&feature=related

If done close to the edge, it will actually slide off without doing a jump

 

[ballin4life]

Or watch my new samus vid coming soon