Chainchoking

[:034:]

I noticed that AFTER I posted it >:

 

[hyperstation]

I'm glad that you are so confident in how powerful chainchoking is. For MK, Ftilt is a better finish than Dtilt, no question. Remember that we can chainchoke until he is near the edge.

On MK, it depends what move is freshest. I believe iDA kills the earliest, and that's the move I use most often for K.O.s. on MK. Chances are you're either going to abuse Dtilt or iDA and keep the other one fresh.

 

[TP]

In another matter, where the **** is Swoops? He's the only Ganon main who has yet to post in here (except Kosk, but he never posts in the meaningful threads) and I want to here his take on this.

Note that some chainchokes are easier than others. Yoshi's and R.O.B's are two of the easiest, if I am remembering that nightmarish afternoon of testing correctly. Has anyone really looked into the application of this yet?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

In another matter, where the **** is Swoops? He's the only Ganon main who has yet to post in here (except Kosk, but he never posts in the meaningful threads) and I want to here his take on this.

Note that some chainchokes are easier than others. Yoshi's and R.O.B's are two of the easiest, if I am remembering that nightmarish afternoon of testing correctly. Has anyone really looked into the application of this yet?

Swoops is that kind of guy who only cares to post about real discoveries, not saying chainchoking isn't helpful, it just isn't 'that' big of a discovery as you consider it to be.

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Well Chain Choking would be refreshing the other moves we have. Thus, I think that it's fair to space the D_tilts. Also Luigi's almost won me a game against MK, it was his counterpick and the guy wasn't playing MK the first round.
I can get Chain Choke consistent up to 4 time on a player that I can tell is just scared.
For me I have left the impression on my friends that if I can keep you close you'll die so I think that the mentally chain choking isn't just a tech chase game but a MIND GAME

 

[AgentJGV]

Well Chain Choking would be refreshing the other moves we have. Thus, I think that it's fair to space the D_tilts. Also Luigi's almost won me a game against MK, it was his counterpick and the guy wasn't playing MK the first round.
I can get Chain Choke consistent up to 4 time on a player that I can tell is just scared.
For me I have left the impression on my friends that if I can keep you close you'll die so I think that the mentally chain choking isn't just a tech chase game but a MIND GAME

You just won.

Anyways, MK is actually easy to CC. His GUA is bigenough that we can shield in time then punish him. (I know, punish MK almost seems like an oximoron at this point but...)

 

[Dr. Hyde]

Well I just noticed something. Unless the person I'm playing has attack set up differently I'm almost able to listen and hear if they clicked the stick to roll or tapped the button to GUA.
I'm getting better at it but I get tricked if the person just stands up.

Also Atlas and I have a nasty trick in teams, can't wait for a vid to get up.

 

[hyperstation]

Well I just noticed something. Unless the person I'm playing has attack set up differently I'm almost able to listen and hear if they clicked the stick to roll or tapped the button to GUA.
I'm getting better at it but I get tricked if the person just stands up.

Also Atlas and I have a nasty trick in teams, can't wait for a vid to get up.

First off...Hyde, you're the man for pointing out the obvious to us about chain choking refreshing moves. This can't be underscored enough. I mean, lock someone up for 5 or so of these in a row and your stale iDA/dtilt can suddenly kill again. Freaking disgusting

Second, Atlas plays Samus, right? MOM and I have started playing recently as Team PARENTS, and we're looking for some dope combos, so I couldn't be more excited about your vid. I like to crouch right in front of Samus and then we alternate her ZAir with my DTilt. Brick wallz.

 

[p8nted]

This is a lot easier than you guys are making it out to be. I usually get 3-4 or more especially if the other player isn't used to it. Even against the players that are said to be close to impossible. Like some people said earlier, it's more of a mind game than an AT.


Here's a video. It's a combo video but involves a lot of choke chasing. The stuff against Falco (starting around 1:20) is especially interesting to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56_Q2CG_reo

 

[Clai]

I have a quick question on Samus. Samus seems to have two get-up attacks- one that's like our get-up attack and Falcon's get-up attack, and another one where she gets up and sweeps the floor, kind of. I don't know why Samus uses one attack over the other, but they're definately different. If you can powershield the first part of this "sweeping" get-up attack, you should be able to do another chain choke.

Just putting it out there.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Instead of "chaining a choke" after someone get up attacks, I'd rather stomp, as Ganon is capable of doing so on some characters, and it sums up damage a lot faster and easier.

 

[SuSa]

100%+ = 1 getup attack
lower then 100% = another getup attack.

It's the same for every single character... both ledge and ground.


just throwing common info out there.

 

[AgentJGV]

I have a quick question on Samus. Samus seems to have two get-up attacks- one that's like our get-up attack and Falcon's get-up attack, and another one where she gets up and sweeps the floor, kind of. I don't know why Samus uses one attack over the other, but they're definately different. If you can powershield the first part of this "sweeping" get-up attack, you should be able to do another chain choke.

Just putting it out there.

I Dont think that it will be a problem because you have to shield it anyways. she looks different when shes GUAing and when shes rolling so you can probably just shield both.

 

[hyperstation]

This is a lot easier than you guys are making it out to be. I usually get 3-4 or more especially if the other player isn't used to it. Even against the players that are said to be close to impossible. Like some people said earlier, it's more of a mind game than an AT.


Here's a video. It's a combo video but involves a lot of choke chasing. The stuff against Falco (starting around 1:20) is especially interesting to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56_Q2CG_reo

Dude, just a suggestion:

From now on when making your first post in a forum, don't arrogantly tell a bunch of people that something which is incredibly difficult to do efficiently is really easy for you unless you're ABSOLUTELY sure you know what you're talking about. In this case...you don't.

Allow me to bring you up to speed. You're confusing tech chasing with chokechaining. If you're not sure what tech chasing is, look it up. We're not gonna powder yr *** and spell everything out for you. Consider this time a freebie, and from now on, do your research before you blow chunks all over the party.

Chainchoking, when done correctly, is literally 100% inescapable for the characters listed in the OP. The combo vid has no instances of chain choking, just some clips of good tech chasing. The longest chainchoke in that vid is 2 chokes against Falco, but you can't even call it chainchoking because the Ganon is really just in the process of tech chasing. Hell, you even say "it's a combo video but involves a lot of CHOKE CHASING".

Yr welcome,
<3 DAD



and Kalm,

I think you're being way too quick to write this off the way you've been doing. There are far more benefits to chainchoking than racking up damage. One is the obvious frustration your opponent will feel. It gives you a mental advantage. which is so huge in Brawl Secondly, as Hyde pointed out, it refreshes kill moves very quickly. it never matters if gerudo is fresh or staled to hell, and if it means getting your killing power of DTilt, DAir, and iDA back, I'm all over it.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

and Kalm,

I think you're being way too quick to write this off the way you've been doing. There are far more benefits to chainchoking than racking up damage. One is the obvious frustration your opponent will feel. It gives you a mental advantage. which is so huge in Brawl Secondly, as Hyde pointed out, it refreshes kill moves very quickly. it never matters if gerudo is fresh or staled to hell, and if it means getting your killing power of DTilt, DAir, and iDA back, I'm all over it.

Yes, It does widely benefit Ganon, I haven't denied that. Basically cause those aspects which you mentioned (mental frustration, refreshes moves), were already where Ganon meta game was going, it just increases it to another level. But, there are still going to be some points during the match where you wouldn't need to chain choke your opponent, especially during percentages where you don't need to refresh your moves or frustrate your opponent any further.

 

[hyperstation]

Yes, It does widely benefit Ganon, I haven't denied that. Basically cause those aspects which you mentioned (mental frustration, refreshes moves), were already where Ganon meta game was going, it just increases it to another level. But, there are still going to be some points during the match where you wouldn't need to chain choke your opponent, especially during percentages where you don't need to refresh your moves or frustrate your opponent any further.

QFT. It sounds like we're on the same page after all then, Kalm. As per usual. I think in a month or so once people are actually breaking out chainchoking with some frequency, we'll understand with more specificity when chain and when to just go for the kill, etc. Basically, we'll gain understanding of how to best apply this tactic to gameplay.

 

[@HomE]

Instead of "chaining a choke" after someone get up attacks, I'd rather stomp, as Ganon is capable of doing so on some characters, and it sums up damage a lot faster and easier.

I like to chainchoke them til they hate me THEN stomp them, I find mixing up the follow up after the SideB, and then getting them back into a chainchoke makes most people almost to angry to play

 

[SaltyKracka]

Um....I'd have to say that there is never a time when you should not be trying to chokechain someone, unless they are already at kill percentages and you have to correct timing and spacing to kill them. Otherwise, chokechaining is ALWAYS the best way to go, as it lets you do damage and refresh kill moves without ever being in danger.

 

[hyperstation]

Um....I'd have to say that there is never a time when you should not be trying to chokechain someone, unless they are already at kill percentages and you have to correct timing and spacing to kill them. Otherwise, chokechaining is ALWAYS the best way to go, as it lets you do damage and refresh kill moves without ever being in danger.

This is making the assumption of ideal conditions. I will (almost) agree with you if we're going to take for granted that you will ALWAYS land the next choke. In reality, I think there is too much margin of error (this may change over time), and sometimes a DTilt, iDA, DAir, or FTilt for the kill would be better.

The reason I said i will almost agree is because since the endgame of chainchoking is a ledge grab, this might not be the best kill option. I've been investigating this a lot and have some very exciting new stage spike -> KO combos which I will be writing about soon. I'm talking kills at around or under 50%, and as you all know, I like to spend a lot of time on or around the ledge. Still a lot of options to play with though. Expect vids.

 

[MoblinMan]

Hey guys. This sounds awesome.. but I have a few questions. I haven't read the last 6 pages, so I might just be repeating the already mentioned, but here they are:

This is unlike TECH chasing, where you are actually predicting your opponent's roll/get up attack. Instead, you are waiting for them to act and then using Brawl's slow gameplay pace to actually observe the starting animation of whatever move they've chosen to do, and reacting accordingly, in this case with another side B. Is this correct?



And if it is, what's to stop them from just lying there? Instead of the mental frustration bonus and what I've heard is a possible 50% + damage combo, all the ganon player gets is a free down tilt and a reset of the situation in which he has to attempt to get another Flame Choke, which is not particularly difficult to avoid. By simply refusing to play the game, the victim can reduce the damage he recieves by a potentially high amount.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Hey guys. This sounds awesome.. but I have a few questions. I haven't read the last 6 pages, so I might just be repeating the already mentioned, but here they are:

This is unlike TECH chasing, where you are actually predicting your opponent's roll/get up attack. Instead, you are waiting for them to act and then using Brawl's slow gameplay pace to actually observe the starting animation of whatever move they've chosen to do, and reacting accordingly, in this case with another side B. Is this correct?



And if it is, what's to stop them from just lying there? Instead of the mental frustration bonus and what I've heard is a possible 50% + damage combo, all the ganon player gets is a free down tilt.

Or, we just wait for them to act. Seriously, if they try to stall, it's not doing anything for them. That and we can just stomp them out of it.

 

[TP]

Hey guys. This sounds awesome.. but I have a few questions. I haven't read the last 6 pages, so I might just be repeating the already mentioned, but here they are:

This is unlike TECH chasing, where you are actually predicting your opponent's roll/get up attack. Instead, you are waiting for them to act and then using Brawl's slow gameplay pace to actually observe the starting animation of whatever move they've chosen to do, and reacting accordingly, in this case with another side B. Is this correct?



And if it is, what's to stop them from just lying there? Instead of the mental frustration bonus and what I've heard is a possible 50% + damage combo, all the ganon player gets is a free down tilt and a reset of the situation in which he has to attempt to get another Flame Choke, which is not particularly difficult to avoid. By simply refusing to play the game, the victim can reduce the damage he recieves by a potentially high amount.

If you press nothing, your guy gets up after about 5 or 10 seconds. You can't lie there forever. I THINK that we can choke every regular getup animation. It is possible that some of them are too fast, but that is a ***** to test and I'm not going to waste my time over it.


I'm kicking myself over not noticing how it refreshes other moves. You would think that I would have a handle on the benefits of my own tech. I'll add that and the importance of demoralizing the opponent to the OP.

EDIT: There, I added a whole new section that sort of summarizes the last page or two. Check it out.

 

[Z1GMA]

What about mixing Chainchoking and air-grab-releases?
Grab release -> Gerudo -> Grab/dashgrab OoS -> Grab release, and so on..
Could be useful for getting them closer to the ledge.

But I dunno, better not messing with the pureness of chainchoking I guess..

 

[SaltyKracka]

What about mixing Chainchoking and air-grab-releases?
Grab release -> Gerudo -> Grab/dashgrab OoS -> Grab release, and so on..
Could be useful for getting them closer to the ledge.

But I dunno, better not messing with the pureness of chainchoking I guess..

The thing about chainchoking is that we DON'T want them to get to the ledge. That ends the chain. So if they keep trying to keep away from the ledge, all the better for us.

 

[MoblinMan]

Okay thanks for the clarification! I'll read that right away.





edit: Alright. so basically, under perfect conditions and against the difficult to almost-impossible characters, this is an infinite until they reach the edge.
The way Ganon's side B is set up, it was almost certainly meant to be a tech-chase system based on prediction, not reaction.

....or maybe it wasn't.

I have a feeling that if it is indeed possible, perfecting Chain Choking would take way more time than anyone but the most devoted are willing to spend, unfortunately.

It's confirmed that the imput must be , in general, already en route during just the first frames of the characters' animation in order to get there in time.

Twilight Prince said 21 or something, and this game runs at like 60 per sec right? Twilight prince's results look really promising, actually, and frame data would only confirm most of the CC possibilities that we've established, and perhaps even give insight to other possibilities as well. Looking good, really good. phooey to the people who say this isn't that useful.

On a side note, where is the thread that teaches you how to iDA? I never read it.

 

[Swoops]

Lol, I'll weigh in on this, I just haven't really been incredibly interested in exploring it to the fullest till now.

Honestly, not to be too harsh or anything, but if you're going for chokechaining based on purely reaction (which is what it sounds like you're striving for,) it really doesn't seem too practical on many characters. Kirby is one character that I will say it works pretty well for. Take a step back, wait, choke, repeat. But for other characters it just seems like the reaction time it takes has to be near perfect and completely on the ball. I mean crazy on the ball, like a pin standing straight up on a ball.

Reading character animations is all well and good (trust me, I've been doing it for a while now,) but frankly when dealing with roll animations and get up animations for a lot of characters, there are very few that can be easily or even decently read.

Also, I'm interested in whether you're talking about just being neutral after the choke, and then reacting from there. For example, you choke MK, wait, then react to anything he does. If that's the case then it's extreeeemely difficult because MK (and I'm guessing a lot of other characters) can DI before they hit the ground gaining extra distance for their out roll, and therefore being out of reach of stationary choke. If you do try to dash forward, you can get hit by a get up attack, or the dash will take too long and they can spot dodge. So in the end, it'll have to constantly come down to prediction, which as many people have said, is just tech chasing.

I really see just a lot of little problems that will end up having way too many varying effects. Roll lengths, get up speeds and the like will end up being too unpredictable of variables. I don't really want to be a bubble burster, as I think that this definitely has potential in altering some of the dorf's match ups, but I think it should be put on the back burner. By that I mean more slowly experimenting over time instead of diving right in and ignoring anything else. Really, more than anything, I think all ganondorf mains should just be learning their match ups in and out (I guess that includes some of the get up attacks and stuff, but still .)

In any event, it's definitely some nice research TP, but I would suggest looking into the DI people can do a bit more.

 

[AgentJGV]

Well we wouldn't want it to be too easy now would we

 

[TP]

Words

No, it isn't nice research. I have stated at several points that my research is flawed because I suck at testing stuff. I have also suggested looking into DI more, but I'm just not the guy to do it. I wish I could do it all alone, but time constraints and skill constraints make it much harder for me to test than it should be.

Can't we take a small step (not a dash) forward if they DI away before the roll begins?

As for your pessimism... I agree. I have never been too confident about chainchoking, to be honest. I always defend it because it is my tech, but I don't really expect much to come from it, except for a couple of matches as you said.

 

[Z1GMA]

I find this way harder than alternating throws with the IC's.
At least at it's current state.

 

[hyperstation]

You're all wrong. Listen. Relative to other techs which had mad prevalence throughout Melee, this just is not that hard. Granted, yes, I suck at it right now too, but if Smash has taught us anything it's this:

No matter how hard, if you find a tech for your character which could potentially reverse or even BREAK match-ups, you just. f*cking. learn. it. No johns, you just do it, like Nike. Swoosh. Swoops.

Look, I was talking to MOM on the phone last night (he's up at our apt in Brooklyn), and I told him about chainchoking and he was like "why the f*ck aren't you spending all day and all night learning this so that you can become the premier Ganon in the world?" He's got a point. Research has told us this CAN be done. Harder, more intensive sh*t has been memorized. We're just being lazy if we don't get this sh*t so together that it's second nature, IMO.

When all you haters are still farting around in 2008, DAD's gonna be FoGing like flubber and Chainchoking MK to hell and back.

 

[@HomE]

You're all wrong. Listen. Relative to other techs which had mad prevalence throughout Melee, this just is not that hard. Granted, yes, I suck at it right now too, but if Smash has taught us anything it's this:

No matter how hard, if you find a tech for your character which could potentially reverse or even BREAK match-ups, you just. f*cking. learn. it. No johns, you just do it, like Nike. Swoosh. Swoops.

Look, I was talking to MOM on the phone last night (he's up at our apt in Brooklyn), and I told him about chainchoking and he was like "why the f*ck aren't you spending all day and all night learning this so that you can become the premier Ganon in the world?" He's got a point. Research has told us this CAN be done. Harder, more intensive sh*t has been memorized. We're just being lazy if we don't get this sh*t so together that it's second nature, IMO.

When all you haters are still farting around in 2008, DAD's gonna be FoGing like flubber and Chainchoking MK to hell and back.

*Stands up on a chair and starts clapping*

 

[TP]

You're all wrong. Listen. Relative to other techs which had mad prevalence throughout Melee, this just is not that hard. Granted, yes, I suck at it right now too, but if Smash has taught us anything it's this:

No matter how hard, if you find a tech for your character which could potentially reverse or even BREAK match-ups, you just. f*cking. learn. it. No johns, you just do it, like Nike. Swoosh. Swoops.

Look, I was talking to MOM on the phone last night (he's up at our apt in Brooklyn), and I told him about chainchoking and he was like "why the f*ck aren't you spending all day and all night learning this so that you can become the premier Ganon in the world?" He's got a point. Research has told us this CAN be done. Harder, more intensive sh*t has been memorized. We're just being lazy if we don't get this sh*t so together that it's second nature, IMO.

When all you haters are still farting around in 2008, DAD's gonna be FoGing like flubber and Chainchoking MK to hell and back.

Where's that Lazenganon pic?

 

[Swoops]

You're all wrong. Listen. Relative to other techs which had mad prevalence throughout Melee, this just is not that hard. Granted, yes, I suck at it right now too, but if Smash has taught us anything it's this:

No matter how hard, if you find a tech for your character which could potentially reverse or even BREAK match-ups, you just. f*cking. learn. it. No johns, you just do it, like Nike. Swoosh. Swoops.

Look, I was talking to MOM on the phone last night (he's up at our apt in Brooklyn), and I told him about chainchoking and he was like "why the f*ck aren't you spending all day and all night learning this so that you can become the premier Ganon in the world?" He's got a point. Research has told us this CAN be done. Harder, more intensive sh*t has been memorized. We're just being lazy if we don't get this sh*t so together that it's second nature, IMO.

When all you haters are still farting around in 2008, DAD's gonna be FoGing like flubber and Chainchoking MK to hell and back.

I admire the passion DAD, but I'm a optimist when it comes to match ups and a pessimist when it comes to any new tech that comes out.

I wasn't just saying "oh, it's too hard, obviously not worth it." I'm saying that on most characters you're reaction time has to be near inhuman. On characters like MK, you have to immediately see that he's DIing away, then be able to dash forward enough to cover that ground and get the choke off without meta spotdodging or d-smashing. I know that seems like "really, really hard, but it could be possible in the future." But it takes reacting within like less than a 5 frame spectrum (ok, I pulled the number out of my ***...still.) I honestly can't think of anything more intensive that has been based off of reaction. Tell me what stuff more intensive stuff that is in constant use now than reacting to very small differences in get up animations and reacting to them within like 5 frames, especially when you have the DI ability and roll distances of each character to memorize, as well as subtle-to-no-difference get up animations. Take ROB, who's regular get up animation and attack animation are the same **** thing, except ROB hits at the end of his attack animation -_-.

Really DAD, I want to be proven wrong, I always do when it comes down to techs. Of course I will keep experimenting with this from time to time, because I think it might be devastating on just a couple of characters (namely Kirby.) In the meantime, I want to work up on specific match ups and how truly devastating f-air can be.

 

[:034:]

Where's that Lazenganon pic?

 

[TP]

Thanks, Dutchman.

I got an idea. Let's ask Mew2King to try to get good at chainchoking. If he can't do it, nobody can.

 

[:034:]

M2K is too much of a tierwhore, though.

 

[hyperstation]

M2K is too much of a tierwhore, though.

Apparently D1 loves Ganon, and he's one of the top players in NYC and Atlantic North. Maybe I can convince him to start getting down with the King of Evil more often. He posted in my DSL thread with enthusiasm, so I'm sure he's lurking around here.

<3 D1 NO HOMO

 

[:034:]

D1 is that Falco player right? I've seen him post a couple times, he's a pretty cool guy

 

[Dr. Hyde]

chain choking is annoyingly hard but to get it three times will scare the opponent and then the mind games begin.

For me I just want to get them in the mood where they will roll in a way I can predict after the first choke so I can get a smash off. That is my entire goal. Get them in a mood that causes them to do something expected. Not that choking some one for the entire game wouldn't be flat out amazing but that's one person. Everyone plays different. Some one may just do get up attacks the entire time and you may think they were gonna roll and then the chain is broke.
Or all they do is roll to the right, even at the edge. Stuff like this is something that makes Chain choking almost conditional.

Chain choking isn't necessarily effective against what character but against what player.

 

[Cervance]

Agreed to the above. I've been Chain Choking (or as I call it, Mind Choking) for a few weeks now and I find most players roll out after the first choke(obviously not a very high majority). When you get them again they tend to try GUA, which for all characters you can step away and choke again when timed right, even for Falcon and Ganon.
And when GUA fails, smart players will lay there on the ground and try to 'bait' you to break the chain. Or try the only way out left, to roll in through Ganon. Both are punishable by an F-smash.

What's important about this is not superhuman reaction to your opponents, but superhuman mindgames, mind-reading, so you know you'll choke them before they escape. It feels awesome when you F-smash their In roll and make them feel like N00bs, or Wizkick cancel them off the edge and get them that way.

EDIT: The non-mindgame way would be more consistant, but useless against certain characters. The Mind Choke way is not consistant at all, but can lead to miraculous fruits whenyou're inside your opponent's head. It also works on every character, so I figure it'll be useful in those epic Falcon v Ganon match-ups.