Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Best of 1. As in, you play one game in a set to determine the winner.What's Bo1s?
I was talking to someone that plays a bit of DDD and he would also like to see the perfect king get some buffs as well. He told me that for inhale he would like a kind of 1 hit armor. I like that idea because as he said it's a commitment for DDD to use that move so why should someone be able to dash attack into him and not get inhaled where they would have gotten inhaled. I think combine that with what you said and DDD will be a much more solid character.Only gonna comment on Dedede, because that's pretty much the only character I feel I'm really qualified to discuss in-depth...but I would rather his Inhale (and by extension, Kirby's) be allowed as a pseudo-pocket, where inhaling a projectile would have them waddle around like they just ate someone until they spit it out. It would be a huge commitment, but as long as spitting out the star had a relevant damage multiplier on it, it could be an incredibly useful tool. Moreso for Dedede as his struggles with projectiles are well-documented. Plus this is something that you can actually do in the Kirby games.
Of course Dedede's inhale would also probably need a few frames shaved off the start-up for it to be useful, but eh...
Allowing his ftilt to be clankable again (ala Brawl) would be another good way to address these problems, as he could better control the space around him and deal with projectile pressure in a meaningful way.
are you saying that if you're not guaranteed follow-ups, sizable damage, or kill options then it's not worth? even before DK had dingdong his pivot grab was amazing in deterring reckless approaches. all grabs in this game reward stage control, which is a pretty fundamental necessity in taking games in higher levels of play. that's not to say safe shield pressure isn't great, but there are definitely times where situations call for either shield pressure or grabs.
I agree with this, although I feel that DK's reward off grab puts him significantly farther ahead than other heavies in the game. Idk, some kind of reliable kill conversion might be the spark that heavies need.
Depends on the nature of the reflector and how often Olimar throws his Pikmin.
I guess this dino has hope, then.
utilize your command grab as well! when you pressure your opponents into shielding with yoshi's normals and eggs, you can land with egglay as opposed to spacing moves on their shield. b-reverses also open up many windows in netting command grabs as well.
Not trying to call you out, nor am I even saying your post is wrong/bad
I hope you're open to answering questions!
Blah, I gotta kill this mindset of reward being most important. The game is more complicated than that.
Not to suddenly change the subject, False, but I noticed that prior to 1.1.1, you were sort of a Luigi player at nationals. Has there ever been a circumstance that you ever went back to the character in any tournament afterwards like how Boss and ConCon remained loyal to him? If not, do you ever plan to go back to him in the future? Why?
hmmm... if you pressure someone into turtling, why would you continue to hack away at their shield when they could probably jump/roll to diffuse shield pressure? there are few true blockstrings in this game. Nairo is really good at smelling shields and going for grabs, even before he mained ZSS.
I went Luigi at the Xanadu I won last week, but only for a game. don't worry, he's lurking, and I've been practicing him. I can cover a majority of my comfortable MUs with Sheik and Ryu, but I know there's going to come a time where I need him.
Since I have the chance to ask a great Luigi player, any MU's in particular to watch out for besides the obvious (Rosa, Sheik, Mega man and Pac man)? And how viable do you think Luigi is post patch? Do you think he's still top ten or did he drop down to top 15 or 20 (or perhaps further)? Sorry for the barrage of questions, I just don't get the chance to ask these questions very often.
Even then, Pit isn't all that slow because his walking speed is 16th best and his almost literally average dash speed, tied for 23rd with WFT, is bolstered by the high number of safe options out of it. Air speed is, well, terrible, and unlike Pika and Diddy (a little above and directly below Pit respectively) Pit lacks a solid horizontal burst movement option in the air. Ledge cancelled Upperdash is okay, but on FD or SV it's pretty useless. What he does have over everybody perceived to be above him, though, is his double jumps.
)
Any reason you say this?
Mario's Upsmash is f--ing stupid. You can do wwwwwwwwAAAAAAAAYYYY more than punish people with that move.
It's still only frame 9 + the frames required to do the pivot to actually hit in front of him. And to be fair he said "not punishing with a frame 6 upsmash" and it isn't.
Esam claims his Pikachu is a little better than mine which I agree with. "decently" isn't the right word imo for me. I'd say Esam and I are the two top level Pikachu's. He is no longer alone.
Don't you still main Fox?
Because Pit's Usmash is frame 6, while Mario's is 9 and that's the back. For all intends Mario's is f12 or so. Except against like Pikachu or somebody else short it's the more effective punish.
I was comparing Mario's ability to get KOs to Pit's, not their Usmashes in general. Sheash, cool it a little.
I was thinking it's more of a respect move, where if you for even a moment don't you're getting hit pretty hard.
That's not the real question, the real one is why isn't he in the Backroom yet?
I made a few posts a while back about the three major archetypes in Smash as demonstrated by the three Mii Fighters we have, and how they tend to have similar moves to previously established fighters. And I also made a point to mention that of course characters do not necessarily fit neatly in one of the categories, sometimes taking elements from two or even three.
If Mario's usmash is stupid, Dr. Mario's must be inbred.
Most characters are divided into classes.
Even the Mii Fighters have their light/heavy variations. People just forget the heavy ones exist because the lighter ones are far superior competitively.
And not Esam either?
ESAM doesn't really trust this site. He's a free thinker.
I liked how he free thought his way into getting beat by a character he rejected to bottom 10.
He posts on the pikachu boards, or at least used to.
What does being "opposed to tiers" entail?
ESAM basically believes that specific character placement is arbitrary and the only classification that matters is that characters are either garbage, mid-tier, or capable of winning/consistently doing well at tournaments.
It is what it is, his throws have never really done much damage in ANY iteration of smash.
This, basically.
Reflectors make some matchups with those that do have them harder for Olimar, but I don't think they're the primary reason why the matchups are hard in the first place. Like
Wintropy
said, a reflector could or could not make a difference in matchups depending on how it works. - Because of how fast it comes out, Cape makes using side B on him harder and Fsmash a risky move starting from around 30-40%. However, it doesn't stop properly timed dash grabs because the grab hitbox is on the Pikmin, which is unaffected by the cape, and the cape doesn't apply hitstun on Olimar. He also has Dtilt which is fast enough to punish a whiff if he can't time his grabs right. In my opinion, Mario players who tend to cape a lot are easier to handle than those who constantly attempt to get in Olimar's face through frame data and mobility (and use cape unpredictably), which is much more threatening. Most of this also applies to 's Super Sheet, except that he lacks the mobility Mario has to approach Olimar quickly. - Reflector isn't used too much in my games against him, so I don't think it's a big factor in the MU. It has enough ending lag on it that Olimar can come in with a grab, and if he holds it for too long he could just get hit by Ftilt or Dtilt. Fox is a hard matchup for Olimar mainly because of speed and combo stuff. He has a couple of safe aerials that can take off Pikmin quickly, and his dash attack comes out fast enough and lasts long enough to disregard side B and Fsmash. - The bat isn't fast enough to consistently keep off side B, so it's threatening only if Olimar attempts to Fsmash close up. However, it's hard for Ness to approach Olimar safely bar dash attack, and since Olimar doesn't prefer to fight up close most of the time, the bat isn't too much of an issue. - Lucas's stick comes out quick enough that trying to punish an approaching Nair with Fsmash would probably result in Olimar taking the reflect, so Olimar would need to apply pivot grabs instead. Zair can stop side B on top of PK Fire, so it may take a bit to win the zoning battle to force an approach. - Falco's Reflector is a little more problematic than Fox's because it lasts for a long time even on the way back, has a hitbox, and comes out quickly. That being said, the hitbox only lasts until the reflector hits its peak of its distance, at which point Olimar can Dtilt Falco if he powershields and he's close enough. Also, despite that and lasers, the matchup doesn't look that hard to me because if Olimar can stay right around mid-range and play around the reflector enough, then Falco would have to approach. - Reflect Barrier lasts for a long time. I'm not sure if full hop side B can go over it aside from yellows. The only weakness the barrier has is that Olimar can still grab Palmtree through the barrier after the first few frames it's out, though it might be impossible to do any followups from Dthrow. - Not enough experience against Mewtwo, but I'm having difficulties on what I can do against Confusion because it's also a command grab . - I think this post explains it well enough.Side B and all of his smashes, including Usmash, are projectiles. All of his aerials are also projectiles, but they can't be reflected (they can clank with most attacks though).
Olimar does have a lot of intricacies that make him more complex than most characters (taking advantage of whistle armor, cycling for colors, edgeguarding with Dsmash, unreliable desync smashes, etc.), but I think they don't make him as technical as Peach or Ryu because he doesn't require as much player inputs to make use of most of his little details. I do think that making the most out of some of these things (whistle, Dsmash, etc.) can potentially change the overall view on his viability a little because it could make what might be a defensive/reactive character relying on disjointed smashes, side B, and pivot grab into a character with a little more active and pressure-based playstyle (something like this). Even if they do make a difference, it may not help too much with his MU spread; most of his disadvantageous matchups are those that have the ability to deal with his projectiles, either through sheer speed (Falcon, Sheik, Mario), outcamping (ROB, also Sheik), or avoiding most of Olimar's ground-based stuff (Yoshi, Peach). Most of these characters are tournament viable at the very least, so it's probably the reason why Olimar may be difficult to make widespread tourney results as a solo main or is regarded only as a pocket character for some players, like
False
said.
You're not considering three things which I feel make Mario better than Pit.Even then, Pit isn't all that slow because his walking speed is 16th best and his almost literally average dash speed, tied for 23rd with WFT, is bolstered by the high number of safe options out of it. Air speed is, well, terrible, and unlike Pika and Diddy (a little above and directly below Pit respectively) Pit lacks a solid horizontal burst movement option in the air. Ledge cancelled Upperdash is okay, but on FD or SV it's pretty useless. What he does have over everybody perceived to be above him, though, is his double jumps.
His frame data is also pretty fast since his slowest normal is f12, Uair, and I believe he's the only swordfighter with a f4 aerial, Nair. Only other f4 option on a swordfighter I can think of is Ike's Jab... Fastest ground move is f5, a tie between Jab and Dsmash. Tied for fastest Fsmash at F10, and Usmash is f6 which I imagine isn't beat by much if anything. Of course Ftilt and Utilt are also f10 and f6 respectively, but his other options cover them well.
Like Mario, I'd say he's decidedly above average at everything at worst. Might even be better at killing then Mario depending how you look at it... Mario can't rush in and kill with Fthrow, can't punish with a f6 Usmash, or use the back hit of Dsmash like Mewtwo would use his in general. (Also the back hit of Pit's Dsmash comes out two frames sooner and has two frames less cooldown then Mewtwo's Dsmash, so yeah.) Mario also isn't great at killing people on platforms since his Usmash doesn't reach (reach well?) and his Bair isn't a great kill move like Pit's. And if in some rare instance you're going toe-to-toe on a platform against him Upperdash kills a whole 10% sooner for every BF platform you go up, and getting grabbed is a death sentence since Dthrow > Uair I think is a KO confirm at some point and Uthrow just kills.
(Also Dthrow double jump Uair is a kill "combo" on CPUs on FD, not that anybody cares.
