Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[False]

False

How's the path of Ryu going? I saw you take a pretty sick win over Boss at Xanadu.

Any thoughts on how far you can take the character's meta?

Manuals still don't come naturally to me, but we'll see. I can't say for sure.

 

[LightLV]

Tekken has more of an emphasis with positioning, neutral, and to an extent, oki. Xiaoyu is known for her evasive fighting style (and is such in real life), but this is not because of inherent speed, but rather that her stances provide so many positioning options. Phoenix dodges all highs and some mids, can do rolls for side stepping, can go into Rain Dance, etc. And Rain Dance has a bunch of mixups from it along with more dodging moves

EDIT: As an aside, I find it kind of odd that okizeme is almost never referred to here, even in the context of tech chases which are the same exact thing.

Yeah the thing with Tekken is that its mobility gap is not quite as large as it can get in games like Smash or anime fighters. There are more avenues for them to excel in other than just being able to get in and out, and that's not only because of the Z axis. Having abusable moves always helps as well. Characters in Tekken are also balanced by the ratio of High/Mid/Low attacks they have in their arsenal, how viable they are for punishes, ect ect

I'm not a good opponent away from changing my mind. Don't insult me by assuming I only think like this because I never have any issues playing heavies. I have to deal with top tiers a lot. Whenever I lose to them I accept that I could've done better neutral, and that a better player would've won with DK or Bowser.

Unlike some other heavy mains, I don't complain about having to do work to overcome my character's weakness. There are people who want heavies to keep the same weight, range and reward, but have their neutral and disadvantage buffed. They want to be able to play a simpler character and have no weaknesses to worry about.

Don't mean to be insulting, infact i have respect for people who roll with the punches. But there is a threshold where you can stop blaming yourself, and just start accepting that your character has disproportionate flaws to work with.

I don't understand the reluctance to accept that some characters could use some help, however small it needs to be. Nobody is in a position where winning is impossible, but that is not the same thing as equal chance of victory.

One thing is for certain though, some people seem to believe that their uphill struggle with their questionable-tier character is somehow worth more than the same struggle for those who main top-tiers. And I don't for one second believe that's fair.

Edit:
Okay, it's a fair thing to believe. But at some point it crosses that line between determination and delusion.

 

[outfoxd]

Yeah the thing with Tekken is that its mobility gap is not quite as large as it can get in games like Smash or anime fighters. There are more avenues for them to excel in other than just being able to get in and out, and that's not only because of the Z axis. Having abusable moves always helps as well. Characters in Tekken are also balanced by the ratio of High/Mid/Low attacks they have in their arsenal, how viable they are for punishes, ect ect



Don't mean to be insulting, infact i have respect for people who roll with the punches. But there is a threshold where you can stop blaming yourself, and just start accepting that your character has disproportionate flaws to work with.

I don't understand the reluctance to accept that some characters could use some help, however small it needs to be. Nobody is in a position where winning is impossible, but that is not the same thing as equal chance of victory.

One thing is for certain though, some people seem to believe that their uphill struggle with their questionable-tier character is somehow worth more than the same struggle for those who main top-tiers. And I don't for one second believe that's fair.

Edit:
Okay, it's a fair thing to believe. But at some point it crosses that line between determination and delusion.

I'll never begrudge someone their character, no matter the reason. I'll get mad but i won't look down on them for it. Hell, i wish i liked the playstyle of a top or high tier enough to main them. Nintendo just gave me an undertuned character i love and I'm paying for my preference.

 

[G. Stache]

though, some people seem to believe that their uphill struggle with their questionable-tier character is somehow worth more than the same struggle for those who main top-tiers. And I don't for one second believe that's fair

There are certainly perks for using a mid tier character. MU confusion, underrated tools, differing play styles than the higher tiered characters, etc. I think the players who main such characters know what they're getting into when they use such characters. They don't expect more results. Rather, they do it to expand the character's meta a lot of the time. I look on the Samus boards and they're doing some really great things in the technical side of things. Do they think they more out of it instead of using sheik results-wise? No, of course not. There are people in SamusBoards still think Samus is bottom tier. But some people view character development as a higher priority. Also, continuing the topic of Samus: she has a specific type of play style that differs from sheik. Can I tell you something: out of all the top 5 characters I'd only really play sonic. And even then, his playstyle is meh for me. I hate playing sheik and ZSS. Not because I hate using good characters, but because their playstyle doesn't suit me at all. I like playing characters that suit my playstyle. Whether that be (a newly picked up) Samus, Falco or the beautiful man in green himself. Basically, preference is always a factor in any game. Not just a preference in character selection, but a preference im goals. And results aren't always that preference

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah the thing with Tekken is that its mobility gap is not quite as large as it can get in games like Smash or anime fighters. There are more avenues for them to excel in other than just being able to get in and out, and that's not only because of the Z axis. Having abusable moves always helps as well. Characters in Tekken are also balanced by the ratio of High/Mid/Low attacks they have in their arsenal, how viable they are for punishes, ect ect

Pretty much. Using Xiaoyu as an example again, for all her evasive options and stance mixups, she's always been limited with her lows in neutral. At least until T7, the only "safe" low she had was db+4. Her others were more telegraphed such as ss+3. Meanwhile, because of her ability to hit at multilple angles, she has a very limited number of attacks that can counter side stepping.

Then you have someone like King with all his throws. Crouching dodges highs and throws, but giving him a bunch of lows just makes it a mess for you to fight him in neutral. There's a lot of design aspects that people don't really consider with most characters.

Don't mean to be insulting, infact i have respect for people who roll with the punches. But there is a threshold where you can stop blaming yourself, and just start accepting that your character has disproportionate flaws to work with.

I don't understand the reluctance to accept that some characters could use some help, however small it needs to be. Nobody is in a position where winning is impossible, but that is not the same thing as equal chance of victory.

One thing is for certain though, some people seem to believe that their uphill struggle with their questionable-tier character is somehow worth more than the same struggle for those who main top-tiers. And I don't for one second believe that's fair.

Edit:
Okay, it's a fair thing to believe. But at some point it crosses that line between determination and delusion.

Part of it is that they're good with that character, but not comfortable with the top tiers. The only only high ranking characters I can really play are Rosalina and Fox. The others feel very uncomfortable to me.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pikachu?

See, I didn't want a bunch of people calling me out if I did say Pikachu was a top tier.

As in, Marth wasn't exactly a winning design in this game or in general? Because, I think we know by now that Marth has always kind of wavered along that line of being underwhelming as opposed to oppressingly good.

In Roy's case, I've always felt as though aside from select combos and set-ups, the design of "I need this opponent up close to do any real damage" whilst so much is so unsafe feels almost damning to him. I actually wish I knew his exact frame advantages and dis-advantages off a bunch of his moves, but they've always felt like such a commitment. Also upB isn't particularly good as a recovery move (I feel like Roy would get edge-guarded a lot easier because of fall speed and thus less chance of any commitment/move in the air to stop you murdering him offstage).

Also, I like that a few top players pop in and everyone rushes to ask them celebrity questions.

In this game, yeah.

Although, Marth was a top tier or something in Brawl wasn't he? Besides the range nerf from Melee I don't remember much if anything being particularly wrong with him...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Besides the range nerf from Melee I don't remember much if anything being particularly wrong with him...

Loss of movement, harder to land tippers as a result of range nerf, and lesser combo ability (kinda negligible in the context of Brawl).

 

[LightLV]

There are certainly perks for using a mid tier character. MU confusion, underrated tools, differing play styles than the higher tiered characters, etc. I think the players who main such characters know what they're getting into when they use such characters. They don't expect more results. Rather, they do it to expand the character's meta a lot of the time. I look on the Samus boards and they're doing some really great things in the technical side of things. Do they think they more out of it instead of using sheik results-wise? No, of course not. There are people in SamusBoards still think Samus is bottom tier. But some people view character development as a higher priority. Also, continuing the topic of Samus: she has a specific type of play style that differs from sheik. Can I tell you something: out of all the top 5 characters I'd only really play sonic. And even then, his playstyle is meh for me. I hate playing sheik and ZSS. Not because I hate using good characters, but because their playstyle doesn't suit me at all. I like playing characters that suit my playstyle. Whether that be (a newly picked up) Samus, Falco or the beautiful man in green himself. Basically, preference is always a factor in any game. Not just a preference in character selection, but a preference im goals. And results aren't always that preference

MU confusion and underrated tools are completely at the discretion of your opponent, though. In the event the character you're playing really does have good tools, your character now has something worth respecting, and the underdog factor will no longer apply to you. Of course, this is the sort of natural community aspect to fighting games which drives the meta in the first place.

It's perfectly fine to know what you're getting into though. There's no competitive rule that says you have to play well-known characters, and that unknown factor really can be significant. It just has a really bad half-life the moment it starts actually working.

I'll never begrudge someone their character, no matter the reason. I'll get mad but i won't look down on them for it. Hell, i wish i liked the playstyle of a top or high tier enough to main them. Nintendo just gave me an undertuned character i love and I'm paying for my preference.

I sympathize with this. I'm sure alot of people do...hell with this roster size, im sure most people do.

Although, Marth was a top tier or something in Brawl wasn't he? Besides the range nerf from Melee I don't remember much if anything being particularly wrong with him...

Uhh...well, he had more range in Brawl. He's also another character who lost aloooottt of control from shields being overbuffed, and combine that with his effective range being closer to everyone elses and i dont think he's as good as he was in Brawl, even with the power upgrade.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Marth's issues in this game lie primarily in his blindspots in some areas, exacerbated landing lag compared to prior entries, and so on. His range hasn't taken a direct hit so much as certain animations involve him reaching less but his sword is still the same length (thx Marth boards).

He was also top in Brawl because he had grab release and an assortment of other things like double Fair off a shorthop, his Nair, dancing blade, etc. etc.

I don't think the mechanics really hinder him as much as some other characters I think he was just considerably toned down. They seem to be avoiding making sword characters top tier in this game and there's probably a reason. My wager is that they tend to lock out character choices indefinitely by being there (especially if you check prior games). At least the "traditional" sword characters that used to be able to wall out really well, to a very potent degree.

I hope that answers your question LancerStaff it's the best I could come up with.

 

[LancerStaff]

Uhh...well, he had more range in Brawl. He's also another character who lost aloooottt of control from shields being overbuffed, and combine that with his effective range being closer to everyone elses and i dont think he's as good as he was in Brawl, even with the power upgrade.

I was talking about how he didn't lose much from Melee to Brawl besides range... The reason he's not safe on shields in Smash 4 is largely because he was made not to and not because of shield mechanics, from what I can tell. He doesn't rely on shieldpush because he's usually further away from the opponent anyway...

Marth's issues in this game lie primarily in his blindspots in some areas, exacerbated landing lag compared to prior entries, and so on. His range hasn't taken a direct hit so much as certain animations involve him reaching less but his sword is still the same length (thx Marth boards).

He was also top in Brawl because he had grab release and an assortment of other things like double Fair off a shorthop, his Nair, dancing blade, etc. etc.

I don't think the mechanics really hinder him as much as some other characters I think he was just considerably toned down. They seem to be avoiding making sword characters top tier in this game and there's probably a reason. My wager is that they tend to lock out character choices indefinitely by being there (especially if you check prior games). At least the "traditional" sword characters that used to be able to wall out really well, to a very potent degree.

I hope that answers your question LancerStaff it's the best I could come up with.

Well thanks, but it was less of a question and more me being foggy on the subject. I was trying to figure out why Luco said Marth had a spotty record when even in Brawl Marth was one of the best.

But yeah, it seems very deliberate how every sword character was bad in 1.0 besides Pit and maybe MK. Toon Link was nerfed a bit, Marth and Ike got nerfed into the ground, and all our sword-wielding newcomers were pretty awful and still are TBH. Only sword character to not get any kind of big nerfs was Link, actually. Another reason to be worried about Cloud's viability, I guess...

 

[TTTTTsd]

I was talking about how he didn't lose much from Melee to Brawl besides range... The reason he's not safe on shields in Smash 4 is largely because he was made not to and not because of shield mechanics, from what I can tell. He doesn't rely on shieldpush because he's usually further away from the opponent anyway...



Well thanks, but it was less of a question and more me being foggy on the subject. I was trying to figure out why Luco said Marth had a spotty record when even in Brawl Marth was one of the best.

But yeah, it seems very deliberate how every sword character was bad in 1.0 besides Pit and maybe MK. Toon Link was nerfed a bit, Marth and Ike got nerfed into the ground, and all our sword-wielding newcomers were pretty awful and still are TBH. Only sword character to not get any kind of big nerfs was Link, actually. Another reason to be worried about Cloud's viability, I guess...

Not really @ Cloud. When you think about characters like Ike I feel like Cloud has a pretty solid chance of being decent. The reason Marth has issues is all the stuff I mentioned. Ike doesn't really have those issues and he also hits REALLY hard.

Cloud isn't really a traditional swordie like Marth or really designed around that so I wouldn't consider that a strike to his actual viability. I just think traditional Emblem chars are like this in Smash 4 (Marth, Lucina, Roy etc.) but Ike is a big power hitter and he has good things over Marth including range and the aforementioned.

 

[C0rvus]

Part of it is that they're good with that character, but not comfortable with the top tiers. The only only high ranking characters I can really play are Rosalina and Fox. The others feel very uncomfortable to me.

This. Recently tried to pick up Yoshi, but he didn't mesh with me at all. I kept trying but I don't think he's for me. Comfort is a very important factor in tournament performance.

 

[wedl!!]

If we're still on the subject of vortex, I think that is a really good example of a vortex character that people aren't noticing. His entire gimmick is high-damage, somewhat risky mixups/guesses and being able to hold a lead. Spindash is the essential reaction-baiting move.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

This. Recently tried to pick up Yoshi, but he didn't mesh with me at all. I kept trying but I don't think he's for me. Comfort is a very important factor in tournament performance.

If that's the case, then it's no wonder he has such low rep. A very unconventional character, indeed, with a couple of flaws that are mostly overpowered by significant strengths.

I'm a loyalist, though, just like aMsa.

 

[meleebrawler]

If we're still on the subject of vortex, I think that is a really good example of a vortex character that people aren't noticing. His entire gimmick is high-damage, somewhat risky mixups/guesses and being able to hold a lead. Spindash is the essential reaction-baiting move.

My gut tells me Cloud is gonna be all about the vortexes too.

 

[Sonicninja115]

My gut tells me Cloud is gonna be all about the vortexes too.

I am late to the discussion, does vortex stand for unknown? Undeveloped? Going to be great later?

 

[Patriot Duck]

http://pastebin.com/B7jkAtq0

In the pastebin you state that Jigglypuff is irrelevant, but what about sing? As situational as it is, using sing on a "grounded" Wario to put him asleep offstage could work, no?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Somebody showed me that. Funnily enough, I made this video about ten minutes ago--

Rewriting the pastebin, actually, because there is something going on that I don't understand that makes many moves bypass this state for reasons unknown.

 

[hypersonicJD]

And Sonic is also pretty good at changing his playstyle. He can go full speed and rekt you pretty hard, and then start camping the hell out of you. Or start camping you and with an opening rack-up very high damage and end the stock quickly. That's why I love him. Because you will never see the same gameplay with Sonic. Aggressive Sonic's, campy Sonic's and a combination of both.

 

[Smog Frog]

my understanding of vortex from traditional fighting games is getting large amounts of damage from knockdown. or is that not it?

 

[meleebrawler]

I am late to the discussion, does vortex stand for unknown? Undeveloped? Going to be great later?

From what I've read, it's basically putting an opponent in a situation where he has very limited options to avoid potential followups. He basically has to make the correct call to avoid damage.

Cloud, having two valid meteors (must be alluding to something...), a fast uair and a wide dash attack among other things will likely be great at causing these.

Though I suppose depending on the characters vortexes in Smash kind of happen all the time when chasing or trapping landings.

More traditional vortexes exist in Flame Choke and Confusion, as well as some throws like Roy's.

 

[wedl!!]

Vortex is a fighting game concept which involves constantly resetting neutral and constantly guessing the opponent's reaction. A traditional example of a vortex character is SF4 Ibuki.

 

[Big-Cat]

my understanding of vortex from traditional fighting games is getting large amounts of damage from knockdown. or is that not it?

It's constant 50/50's on a knocked down opponent.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Generally speaking, you're at no risk if the opponent guesses correctly. They just "get to play the game" again.

 

[LightLV]

I was talking about how he didn't lose much from Melee to Brawl besides range... The reason he's not safe on shields in Smash 4 is largely because he was made not to and not because of shield mechanics, from what I can tell. He doesn't rely on shieldpush because he's usually further away from the opponent anyway...

He isn't the only one, but Marth lost alooooot of utility from his moves and spacing due to the new shield mechanics. Not only shieldpush but the reluctance for hitboxes to actually shieldpoke now, for whatever reason. Shields regenerate extremely fast and rarely poke, no more pushing out with Dtilt/jab, his edge pressure game took a hit...

Of course shield mechanics have alot to do with it. He's outright unsafe in many situations where he'd gain control by attacking, and gains far less for actually being aggressive. Not to mention his range nerfs, ******** throw trajectories that discourage followups or at least mixups, ect ect ect. About the only thing he gained in Smash 4 (as of recent) are some combo gimmicks.

It's constant 50/50's on a knocked down opponent.

This pretty much. Vortex basically puts you in a situation where at the moment you're given control, you have to guess what your opponent is about to try on you. Guess wrong? You get hit, and have to do it again. Rinse repeat until either you get out, or they kill you.

 

[Big-Cat]

Vortex is a fighting game concept which involves constantly resetting neutral and constantly guessing the opponent's reaction. A traditional example of a vortex character is SF4 Ibuki.

TOSTADA! TOSTADA! TORTILLA! FAJITA BUSTER!

 

[G. Stache]

Speaking of sonic, I have a question: who or what shuts down his playstyle? I mean, probably not much since he's a common candidate for top 5, but what does sonic dislike facing in general that keeps him from being something like, say, a solid top 3 character?

 

[Smog Frog]

safe, active, long reaching hitboxes. it's why he's speculated to be disadvantaged vs .

 

[Big-Cat]

Speaking of sonic, I have a question: who or what shuts down his playstyle? I mean, probably not much since he's a common candidate for top 5, but what does sonic dislike facing in general that keeps him from being something like, say, a solid top 3 character?

I'd say anything that can reach his damage in only a few hits. That and not trying to outpace him. My rule of thumb: If the character is faster than me, don't chase them.

If you chase when you should've stayed put, you're gonna have a bad time.

 

[Nu~]

Speaking of sonic, I have a question: who or what shuts down his playstyle? I mean, probably not much since he's a common candidate for top 5, but what does sonic dislike facing in general that keeps him from being something like, say, a solid top 3 character?

Jokes aside, anything that stops him from spin dashing/running up to you easily and forcing you to guess his next option. Making his game plan predictable kills him since he lives off of mixups and baits.

Mega man pellets, pacman trampoline, Needles, and Ragnell are great for this.

 

[RonNewcomb]

How is v. ? I would think Sonic would have issues with spam + dog's own run speed.

 

[Big-Cat]

How is v. ? I would think Sonic would have issues with spam + dog's own run speed.

My only experience in this matchup ATM is that this CAN be a pain in the ass for , but it's most definitely manageable. With the right positioning and use of projectile spam, you can keep him in the air where his mixups aren't nearly as powerful.

 

[Megamang]

Pellets are really great against sonic partly due to his long dash, which makes dash to shield a little worse against pellets.

He can walk and shield like everyone else in the MU, but who plays sonic to do that kinda thing? It relates to the character meshing with the player topic; mega forces sonic to play a very un sonic game, which is why i love him for that MU.

 

[Nobie]

I might be late to the party with this, but I think I've found that setting C-Stick to Smash for Mewtwo is waaaay better than setting it to tilt.

One of the problems with C-stick Smashes is that if you use them for aerials, they kill your momentum. However, because of Mewtwo's poor jump acceleration/deceleration as long as you don't keep the c-stick tilted the effect is minimal.

C-stick can be used for running up smash even with tap jump off, and it slides just as much as a jump-canceled up smash. You can still perform it with jump and up smash on the control stick, of course, but it can give a nice alternative for people who find that uncomfortable or unwieldy (it's also easier to not accidentally charge it).

Easier pivot f-smashes to quickly out-space the opponent, or to make sure you land the move's sweetspot.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'll be switching to c-stick smash from now on.

 

[Locke 06]

I might be late to the party with this, but I think I've found that setting C-Stick to Smash for Mewtwo is waaaay better than setting it to tilt.

One of the problems with C-stick Smashes is that if you use them for aerials, they kill your momentum. However, because of Mewtwo's poor jump acceleration/deceleration as long as you don't keep the c-stick tilted the effect is minimal.

C-stick can be used for running up smash even with tap jump off, and it slides just as much as a jump-canceled up smash. You can still perform it with jump and up smash on the control stick, of course, but it can give a nice alternative for people who find that uncomfortable or unwieldy (it's also easier to not accidentally charge it).

Easier pivot f-smashes to quickly out-space the opponent, or to make sure you land the move's sweetspot.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I'll be switching to c-stick smash from now on.

Mewtwo, along with ZSS, are a few characters I would probably abuse PP dsmash with. Something that is very difficult to do with tilt stick. I used to do it with Mega at the ledge, but PP/easier PS OS tilts are more important to my game along with easier FHAC Up airs.


Follow-up question: what other characters really like smash stick? Pivot fsmash can be done easier with a+B smash and running up smash/jcusmash is not too troublesome to get used to without the stick, when the benefit is easy access to tilts.

 

[ARGHETH]

Follow-up question: what other characters really like smash stick? Pivot fsmash can be done easier with a+B smash and running up smash/jcusmash is not too troublesome to get used to without the stick, when the benefit is easy access to tilts.

I think Robin does, because accidentally doing Bronze aerials are annoying.

 

[Ffamran]

I just realized that Luigi has the strongest frame 3 Nair. Second to it - frame 3-only Nairs which obviously does skew where Dr. Mario is - would be Yoshi's, does 10% followed by Mario's which does 8%, Sheik's which does 8% or 7% depending on where you hit, and Dr. Mario's which does 5.6% since he's special. Falco's in a weird spot since it's a multi-hit, so if we only count the first hit, then it would be absolute butt since it's just a loop hit, but if we count it as complete move, then it's beating Yoshi's in damage by 1%, but because the kill hit only does 4% and despite that hit having 55 base and 130 growth, it's probably weaker than Yoshi's, but stronger than Yoshi's? and Mario's off-stage since it totals up to 11%. For 3 frames from 3 to 5, Luigi can do 12% on you and send you straight up at 90 degrees which DI'ing doesn't influence much. Sure, the knockback isn't as godplayer as Falco's frame 4-5 clean 13% Bair or Fox's 2nd hit of Uair that does 11%, but that's still a 12% hitbox active for 3 frames when most strong hits like that are only active for 2 frames, aren't as fast, and/or don't have a hitbox that covers pretty much their entire body. Another thing is that Yoshi's sends you forward, so you can DI it more easily instead of being send straight up to heaven.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I just realized that Luigi has the strongest frame 3 Nair. Second to it - frame 3-only Nairs which obviously does skew where Dr. Mario is - would be Yoshi's, does 10% followed by Mario's which does 8%, Sheik's which does 8% or 7% depending on where you hit, and Dr. Mario's which does 5.6% since he's special. Falco's in a weird spot since it's a multi-hit, so if we only count the first hit, then it would be absolute butt since it's just a loop hit, but if we count it as complete move, then it's beating Yoshi's in damage by 1%, but because the kill hit only does 4% and despite that hit having 55 base and 130 growth, it's probably weaker than Yoshi's, but stronger than Yoshi's? and Mario's off-stage since it totals up to 11%. For 3 frames from 3 to 5, Luigi can do 12% on you and send you straight up at 90 degrees which DI'ing doesn't influence much. Sure, the knockback isn't as godplayer as Falco's frame 4-5 clean 13% Bair or Fox's 2nd hit of Uair that does 11%, but that's still a 12% hitbox active for 3 frames when most strong hits like that are only active for 2 frames, aren't as fast, and/or don't have a hitbox that covers pretty much their entire body. Another thing is that Yoshi's sends you forward, so you can DI it more easily instead of being send straight up to heaven.

What about Pac Man's 10% frame 3 Nair that kills?

 

[Ffamran]

What about Pac Man's 10% frame 3 Nair that kills?

Hmm, didn't know that... Wow, its clean hit has the same frame data as Yoshi's. The rest are similar, but Pac-Man got shafted with weaker late hits, lower total active frames, higher recovery, and worse auto-cancel - they share a before frame 4, but differ with Pac-Man's after 48 vs. Yoshi's after 38. So, then frame 3 Nair power levels are like Luigi, Yoshi and Pac-Man, Mario and technically Sheik if you ignore the 7% hitbox, and Dr. Mario with Falco somewhere since I don't want to bother figuring out where a multi-hit should be.

 

[Vyrnx]

Villager and Pikachu both have frame 3 nairs that do 9 damage as well.

I think Yoshi's make might have the biggest hitbox of the frame 3 nairs, which is important when comparing OOS and such.