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Character Competitive Impressions

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Noa.

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How viable is Mega Man? He seems like a good counterpick character since he has some crippling match ups but does really will in others. (hell, half his moves are projectiles).
But I've never used him seriously and don't see a lot of people using him. So I don't know, what's his deal?
Megaman is a strong character and quite decent. Metal blade is a great projectile and just slow enough that mega man can follow it and continue to put pressure on you. High mid or maybe even bottom of high tier sounds feasible to me.

While in theory his matchups against characters with reflectors would be awful, I'm not sure if they're actually as negatively impactful in practice. I've never seen high level play between a mega man and a fox/falco/mario/Palutena. It might not be too crippling.
 

Terotrous

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Fireballs has great priority, and will cancel out a lot of projectiles. Trust me, it has a lot more priority than it looks.
Except for moves that are transcendent, all attacks have the same priority: they clank with moves within 9% of their damage, otherwise the weaker attack gets negated entirely. Transcendent attacks just don't clank at all.

Fireball's base damage is 5% (6% for luigi), so it can never beat out another projectile, but it will clank with anything that does 14% damage or less, which is most projectiles except for Charge Shot and Megaman F-Smash and the like.

Fireball can also be clanked by any normal in the game as long as it is not transcendent. Transcendent attacks can't clank.


I don't know why they don't just make Kirby have something like Jiggly's air mobility instead of it being so bad. I think that'd go a long way towards making him a decent character.
If he had Jiggs' air speed they'd basically be the same character, but Kirby would likely be better (due to generally better normals). The difference in air speed is what makes them different.

Kirby really does need something though. Fireball Dash Attack from PM maybe?


What else is unique to Kirby? Well, the ability to Copy is pretty sweet, but it's connected to a move that has roughly 17-18 frames of startup, and if you whiff it, it's more punishable than most Smash attacks.
Actually this is probably the problem. I suspect the reason Kirby is a bit weak in general is to make up for the copy abilities, but inhale is such a poor move that it's hard to make use of them. Jumping Inhale would help some but Inhale's hitboxes probably need to be tightened up a bit in general.


Unfortunately Mario does that better. At least Kirby is still the cutest character in the game.
I think Pikachu actually has him beat here. The "hiiiii" nerf didn't help. That's a bottom tier taunt now.

Seriously was it so hard to understand that the taunt was perfect in Melee? Just reuse the soundbite! You do that for Falcon!


Again with the Diddy talk. I could have sworn that diddy is dominating because he has such a high skill to power ratio and few got time to learn other characters who are as powerful for as little skill. Diddy might end up as the Wesker of Smash, low skill, high efficiency but ultimately beaten by a crippling weakness people started to exploit.
I don't know, I don't think Wesker's frame data was ever quite as strong. Also, MvsC3 is a game where damage output is trivial since every character can ToD, but Smash isn't like that. Damage output does matter here.


Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but since everyone keeps talking about balance patching, how was Project M patched? Was it constantly updated in terms of stats with each dot release? If it was, it might give an idea on how Nintendo could potentially update Smash 4.
Each release changed a lot, but of course Nintendo has nothing to do with Project M.
 
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Ticker

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I don't know how much 1.0.3 3DS Greninja would have helped with that, aside from being able to Shadow Sneak Cancel things. He has better recovery on a couple of moves, but the general sense of movement with Greninja didn't change.
He had more kill moves and less end lag on other moves
 

Nobie

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I think what holds Mega Man together as a character isn't just the zoning strength of his projectiles, but his projectiles in conjunction with his other stats. The fact that he's so heavy yet can move about in the air so nimbly means he can juke out opponents and still live against some nasty hits.

Speaking of Mega Man, I feel like he has an advantageous matchup against Charizard, if only because Charizard is the only character who consistently takes 9% damage from Metal Blades (and not even ones that are thrown like an item).
 

Nabbitnator

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Megaman is a strong character and quite decent. Metal blade is a great projectile and just slow enough that mega man can follow it and continue to put pressure on you. High mid or maybe even bottom of high tier sounds feasible to me.

While in theory his matchups against characters with reflectors would be awful, I'm not sure if they're actually as negatively impactful in practice. I've never seen high level play between a mega man and a fox/falco/mario/Palutena. It might not be too crippling.
I don't think megaman vs palutena could be that bad since he can just angle his projectiles.
 

thehard

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It warms my heart that Mario, Luigi and Wario are all good in this game. Overalls tier.
I was just thinking the same thing a few days ago.

So, for something different, I want to know how you guys feel about the semi-agreed upon Top 5 (Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Pika, and Rosalina), specifically, what characters outside of this Top 5 do you think have an advantage against them? I've mentioned my thoughts about Luigi and Olimar having a good MU against Diddy before, so I'd like to hear what this thread thinks. Slightly inspired by Zero mentioning there needed to be more constructive discussion on what can be done to dismantle Diddy rather than complaining.
 

Balgorxz

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He had more kill moves and less end lag on other moves
sakurai balanced the game according to japan competitive popularity before the patch 80% of japan was yoshi,greninja,sheik and rosa therefore they got the biggest nerfs.
diddy was considered low tier at that time that's why he didn't get touched in the patch
 

warionumbah2

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I was just thinking the same thing a few days ago.

So, for something different, I want to know how you guys feel about the semi-agreed upon Top 5 (Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, Pika, and Rosalina), specifically, what characters outside of this Top 5 do you think have an advantage against them? I've mentioned my thoughts about Luigi and Olimar having a good MU against Diddy before, so I'd like to hear what this thread thinks. Slightly inspired by Zero mentioning there needed to be more constructive discussion on what can be done to dismantle Diddy rather than complaining.
MK does well against Rosalina, only moves that whiff Pikachu is U-Smash or for some reason Tornado because Pikachu goes Kirby level flat when landing using bair. Luckily MK is around Kirby size. Can kill a Rosalina up top at 85% MK doesn't need any rage for it, i think Pika is lighter but its easier to land shuttle loop/grounded U-Smash on Rosalina since she's pretty damn tall. I think the Pika MU is fun and even.


Sanic,Sheik and Hoo Hah the spider monkey are disgusting. Mario does pretty well against the 5 you listed, maybe other characters too but i lack knowledge on what they can do against them...
 
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Djent

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Rosalina almost certainly loses to Falcon and Fox.

The other 4 mostly go even with a few mid tiers, but don't outright lose. There's some hope for Peach > Pikachu but other than that, ehh...
 

Psyant

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@ thehard thehard : As far as Pikachu is concerned, right now I feel like Yoshi is his worst MU. Some other Pikachu mains have agreed with me on that. The way Yoshi is built as a character is just annoying for Pikachu. He's extremely difficult to kill and holds his own well in the neutral game too. Also does a lot more damage per hit than Pikachu does and kills Pikachu easily.

Mario does pretty well against Pikachu and I've seen a lot of Pikachu mains asking for help fighting him. I think it's more even rather than a disadvantage to Pikachu, but he is seriously frustrating to face for Pikachu at the very least. Mario does mad damage when he gets in, and in Pika vs Mario both of them are "in" all the time. Cape is like the easiest way to shut out thunder-jolt camping in the game, too. I think Mario would straight up have an advantage if it wasn't for the fact he can be gimped easier than most.

Going off topic a bit just on Pikachu in general, I feel he pays for mistakes a lot more than most characters which keeps him tamed to an extent. He is incredibly dominating in a lot of areas (neutral, recovery, edgeguarding), but his low damage per hit and fragility help balance him. I do think Pika is top 3 but at the same time not really metagame centralizing due to his lack of players, relative difficulty of use and a greater requirement to play without mistakes than the other top characters.
 

Emblem Lord

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Sheik imo doesn't lose to anyone. Lucario can do well, but now that I know Sheik does have TRUE kill set-ups on the entire cast around 130% and higher, I no longer think he wins the match. She runs circles around him in neutral.

Villager holds his own, but once she is on him she STAYS on him. He is hard to edgeguard however so that greatly aids him.
 

etecoon

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Again with the Diddy talk. I could have sworn that diddy is dominating because he has such a high skill to power ratio and few got time to learn other characters who are as powerful for as little skill. Diddy might end up as the Wesker of Smash, low skill, high efficiency but ultimately beaten by a crippling weakness people started to exploit.
And that crippling weakness may be...what? I keep seeing this hypothetical scenario thrown around, and it's especially confusing paired with the prominence of "Sheik will become the best character when played perfectly" when Sheik has on paper weaknesses and Diddy doesn't + has greater strengths. Just thinking "Diddy probably has a crippling weakness that no one is exploiting right now!" is a weird kind of optimism, Sheik and Pikachu don't have their flaws perfectly exploited or anything either
 

Asdioh

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Sheik imo doesn't lose to anyone. Lucario can do well, but now that I know Sheik does have TRUE kill set-ups on the entire cast around 130% and higher, I no longer think he wins the match. She runs circles around him in neutral.

Villager holds his own, but once she is on him she STAYS on him. He is hard to edgeguard however so that greatly aids him.
What are the true kill setups? I imagine it would be like Fair or weak hit Nair to Bouncing Fish?
 

Emblem Lord

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Actually forward throw to dash turn around sweet spot bair or f-throw short hop Bouncing Fish. Both need near frame perfect timing. You have maybe 2 frames of error margin. It's not easy mode and everyone's weight and DI will dictate which one you go for. Sheik definitely isn't Diddy here. You gotta have the speed and reactions to pull it off consistently.
 

Shaya

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And that crippling weakness may be...what? I keep seeing this hypothetical scenario thrown around, and it's especially confusing paired with the prominence of "Sheik will become the best character when played perfectly" when Sheik has on paper weaknesses and Diddy doesn't + has greater strengths. Just thinking "Diddy probably has a crippling weakness that no one is exploiting right now!" is a weird kind of optimism, Sheik and Pikachu don't have their flaws perfectly exploited or anything either
It's all about rewards, rather than risk.
People make melee sheik/s4 diddy to melee fox/s4 sheik comparisons, but the main difference here is that we all know Diddy's rewards are significantly better and this won't change. Yeah there are moves from Sheik that are bat **** (shuttle fish/bouncing loop and back air) but they still aren't as rewarding as diddy kong's up air, dtilt or fair (and dash grab), not even close.

Sheik isn't good enough of a character to compete against Diddy's rewards, no character is good enough to compete against diddy's rewards, he legitimately only loses when he is never making successful plays/reads/punishes. Sheik will be 3:1, maybe even 4:1 in punishes and Diddy will still come out on top. It's like MK vs Ice Climbers in Brawl yet the 'weakness' of ICs doesn't exist on Diddy (at least not in any way where sheik's 0-deathing diddy's arms so he can no longer dash grab or his kill power reduces by 50%).
However, Sheik's risk is low enough to beat Diddy disgustingly. Similar rewards elsewhere in the cast are uncommon but still do exist (Luigi), otherwise Sheik's kit leaves her the potential to develop dominating match ups against practically everyone, although she's still probably going to be losing to Diddy in tournament sets because it's Diddy.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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You know what I love about this game? It's so much harder to say who's bottom tier than it is to tell who's high tier. Seriously, I can't think of a character who's even that bad in this game.
 

Asdioh

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Actually forward throw to dash turn around sweet spot bair or f-throw short hop Bouncing Fish. Both need near frame perfect timing. You have maybe 2 frames of error margin. It's not easy mode and everyone's weight and DI will dictate which one you go for. Sheik definitely isn't Diddy here. You gotta have the speed and reactions to pull it off consistently.
Oh... yeah if it's from a throw I imagine DI screw it over pretty bad, although Sheik's throws are all ridiculously fast, so they would have to predict. I mean if they want to DI Dthrow and Fthrow the same way then I guess they won't have to worry about it, but yeah.
Like Kirby has some "true combo" kill moves in training mode, such as Fthrow->Key on Pacman, or Fthrow Charge Shot or whatever, but in practice, simply holding Up and airdodging makes it impossible.

Speaking of things, whatever happened to Sheik's chaingrab? I don't think I've seen a single Sheik use dthrow->upair repeat. Then again I don't see many Sheiks anymore, and the ones I do see don't impress me. Everyone just plays Diddy Kong instead.

It's a shame I hate that character so much, Donkey Kong Country 2 is easily one of my favorite games ever
 
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HeavyLobster

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no character is good enough to compete against diddy's rewards.
No, there are characters who beat Diddy in rewards, it's just that the few that do lose in neutral to a large enough extent that it doesn't matter. The problem with Diddy is that he has the neutral of a lightweight and the punish game of a heavy. Neither one by itself is problematic, but both together are an issue when every other character has some sort of weakness.
 

Kofu

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Sheik imo doesn't lose to anyone. Lucario can do well, but now that I know Sheik does have TRUE kill set-ups on the entire cast around 130% and higher, I no longer think he wins the match. She runs circles around him in neutral.

Villager holds his own, but once she is on him she STAYS on him. He is hard to edgeguard however so that greatly aids him.
This sounds about right. I remember one time fighting a Sheik where I was fine in neutral but as soon as I was in disadvantage, I really struggled to get back to neutral. Sheik's just too fast lol.
 

etecoon

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It's a shame I hate that character so much, Donkey Kong Country 2 is easily one of my favorite games ever
DKC2 is hype, this game needed more DKC2 music instead of 10 versions of jungle japes

You know what I love about this game? It's so much harder to say who's bottom tier than it is to tell who's high tier. Seriously, I can't think of a character who's even that bad in this game.
I'm pretty confident saying that Ganon and Wii Fit Trainer are bad. Ganon especially I've seen so much hype about how he isn't so bad in this game and yet he's actually received some notable nerfs, and it's still easy to just walk around not committing to anything as nothing Ganon does is hard to react to and once you hit him he still gets trapped really badly. When he gets you in dtilt range or closer is the only time he can make you play honestly, near the ledge also for most characters, but he can't get there without exposing himself against better characters anyway.
probably going to lose to the next ganon I play...
 
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HeavyLobster

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Then they aren't that rewarding then.
How are you defining rewards? I'm defining them as how good you are once you get in and start landing hits.
Characters like Falcon and Ganon do more damage faster once they get in, they just cannot get in as safely and reliably as Diddy. If we're talking risk vs. reward, there are characters that are more rewarding than Diddy, but they're also pretty risky. Diddy does have the best safe rewards in the game though.
 

NairWizard

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@ thehard thehard : As far as Pikachu is concerned, right now I feel like Yoshi is his worst MU. Some other Pikachu mains have agreed with me on that. The way Yoshi is built as a character is just annoying for Pikachu. He's extremely difficult to kill and holds his own well in the neutral game too. Also does a lot more damage per hit than Pikachu does and kills Pikachu easily.

Mario does pretty well against Pikachu and I've seen a lot of Pikachu mains asking for help fighting him. I think it's more even rather than a disadvantage to Pikachu, but he is seriously frustrating to face for Pikachu at the very least. Mario does mad damage when he gets in, and in Pika vs Mario both of them are "in" all the time. Cape is like the easiest way to shut out thunder-jolt camping in the game, too. I think Mario would straight up have an advantage if it wasn't for the fact he can be gimped easier than most.

Going off topic a bit just on Pikachu in general, I feel he pays for mistakes a lot more than most characters which keeps him tamed to an extent. He is incredibly dominating in a lot of areas (neutral, recovery, edgeguarding), but his low damage per hit and fragility help balance him. I do think Pika is top 3 but at the same time not really metagame centralizing due to his lack of players, relative difficulty of use and a greater requirement to play without mistakes than the other top characters.
The thing about Pikachu (and the reason I play him) is that he has the tools to deal with every situation and often multiple tools to deal with a given situation. When you play Pikachu you have more options than anyone else, even Sheik. Most characters, when faced with bad matchups, just flail for months in the metagame and sometimes never find a workaround. Pikachu has so many moves that are good in so many situations that 9.8 out of 10 times, if a matchup seems hard to you, it's just because you're choosing the wrong options. Wrong options doesn't mean punishable options--wrong options means suboptimal options. Are you grabbing when you could be pivot f-smashing (which is safe on shield usually)? Are you up-airing for chip damage when you could be getting a b-air that knocks your opponent offstage?

Matchups can seem arbitrarily hard based on invisible opportunity costs for the options that you choose.

When I began to play Pikachu, I had trouble against the swordsmen, like Pit, Shulk, and Link. I wasn't accomplishing a lot by using f-airs and tjolts, and my d-tilt was getting outranged by strong disjoints. But then I realized that swordsmen don't really have quick "get off of me" options, so I started to use more pivot up-airs and Quick Attacks, fast options that swordsmen have to predict to deal with. Once I also started to use ledge canceled b-airs on stages with platforms, I found that the swordsmen matchups felt close to even, or even in Pikachu's favor by a little. And unlike Pikachu, the swordsmen have a hard time counteradapting because they simply have fewer options.

Mario is another matchup that seemed difficult to me at the beginning, but now seems manageable. What this matchup comes down to is range. Up-tilt and d-tilt are big (Pikachu's d-tilt has about as much range as Diddy's), and you can wall Mario out to some extent with them, especially because his ground speed is not that amazing. Pivot f-smash is a fantastic option too, and Mario's f-air is too slow to serve as a forward-hitting punish for your attempt at f-smashing him (you can't pivot f-smash Sheik for example because she can jump over it and f-air or even land a bouncing fish if she calls it; best Mario can do is fireball you, or maybe n-air depending on your spacing). Mario will then have to go to the air to get in on you.

Remember what I said about hidden opportunity costs? Here's a good example: if Mario is spacing fireballs on you, what do you do? You can't really shield since you get grabbed, so your first answer might be to try to duck under them and hit Mario from underneath or behind with b-airs/n-airs/up-airs when he's in the air, but then you might find that you're getting n-aired or d-aired into followups; it's a dangerous game because Mario has decent hitboxes directly below him, and Pikachu's airspeed is bad. What if you tjolt camp him back? This is better, but it means that you trade some damage back and forth, and that's not always great since Mario is heavier.

Ah, but what if you use your up-airs and f-airs to negate the fireballs? This way, you have a hitbox out in case Mario decides to try to hit you with one of his aerials (which don't have a lot of range, while both Pikachu's f-air and up-air are disjointed), and you can pull back, land right outside of his range, and d-tilt. Up-tilt will beat him out of his n-air and d-air if you time it right and will even catch him if he tries to land behind you to do a crossup. This strategy is safer than ducking and weaving because you don't have to pause after your initial dash (which gives Mario time to use one of his lagless moves on you), and it's more rewarding than tjolt camping because you aren't trading damage with fireballs.

Cape is not a good tool against Tjolt because Tjolt is slow-moving and you can move while Mario is caping. The cape animation is really fast, but it has just enough lag that you can Quick Attack into Mario while he is caping your Tjolt. If you aren't careful with the timing then Mario will catch on to your QAs and up-smash you, so you have to time it so that the moment that Tjolt interacts with the cape is the moment that you hit Mario. Learning the angles for this is the best way to make sure you have control of the MU. Actually, this strategy isn't foolproof; if Mario starts using pivot f-smash, then both you and the tjolt are toast. I haven't seen Marios do this yet, but I always wonder why they don't. They often n-air or b-air through instead, which are comparatively weak options.

I think that the Yoshi MU is even, but more than almost any matchup it punishes you for making suboptimal decisions. One thing is that egg toss is punishable, so if you are clever with your QA angles you can both avoid the egg itself and also hit Yoshi whenever he egg tosses. In this MU you have to kind of play like Sonic, where you punish Yoshi's mistakes with your burst mobility and then run away and don't let him near you (and shield if he's near you because his grab is poor). Following up on Yoshi in advantage is risky because down-b and d-air are deadly (down-b kills and d-air does way too much damage), and n-air lets him reverse the situation, so you're relying on chip damage mostly. The MU is boring, but even. If you're in disadvantage, you should always skull bash -> Quick Attack to escape, and if you're in advantage, just settle on stage control and wait for another opportunity to punish. It's a matchup defined by neutral and constant resets.

Greninja and Megaman feel moderately difficult to me still. Greninja is like a sword user but with more options and speed, and Megaman is difficult to gimp and has fast KO options. I haven't really figured out these two matchups yet, but I am sure that I am missing something and once I play a few high- or top-level Greninjas/Megamans I'll figure out something, as they don't feel too difficult, just difficult. Pikachu has tools. It's just about finding the right combination of them.

The same kind of applies to Sheik (but to a lesser extent, as she has more dominant options and fewer overall options) with matchups like Ness, ZSS, and Lucario.
 
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A2ZOMG

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@ thehard thehard : As far as Pikachu is concerned, right now I feel like Yoshi is his worst MU. Some other Pikachu mains have agreed with me on that. The way Yoshi is built as a character is just annoying for Pikachu. He's extremely difficult to kill and holds his own well in the neutral game too. Also does a lot more damage per hit than Pikachu does and kills Pikachu easily.

Mario does pretty well against Pikachu and I've seen a lot of Pikachu mains asking for help fighting him. I think it's more even rather than a disadvantage to Pikachu, but he is seriously frustrating to face for Pikachu at the very least. Mario does mad damage when he gets in, and in Pika vs Mario both of them are "in" all the time. Cape is like the easiest way to shut out thunder-jolt camping in the game, too. I think Mario would straight up have an advantage if it wasn't for the fact he can be gimped easier than most.

Going off topic a bit just on Pikachu in general, I feel he pays for mistakes a lot more than most characters which keeps him tamed to an extent. He is incredibly dominating in a lot of areas (neutral, recovery, edgeguarding), but his low damage per hit and fragility help balance him. I do think Pika is top 3 but at the same time not really metagame centralizing due to his lack of players, relative difficulty of use and a greater requirement to play without mistakes than the other top characters.
Have you like...tried playing a ground game against Mario? Mario actually has a crapton of trouble in neutral against Pikachu because he basically can't safely use any aerials in this matchup due to how small Pikachu is, and Pikachu has more range and mobility than Mario too. Also you can either N-air or U-air out of most of his low% strings as well as his D-air.

Also reflectors should not be messing up your projectile zoning unless it's Falco's. I would more readily argue that Pikachu clearly wins solidly against Mario especially since nerfs to Cape stalling make it much harder for Mario to avoid Pikachu's juggle and edgeguard options reliably, and losing Jab cancel confirms is especially bad in this matchup when it basically means Mario explicitly needs Pikachu to make a mistake to get the KO.

This matchup was about 55/45 Pikachu's favor in Brawl even factoring Mario did well avoiding a lot of Pikachu's traps with Cape stalling and had his Jab game to force Pikachu to be careful in close range. With those things being nerfed and Pikachu still being a smaller target with better range than Mario, I believe this is more plausibly 6/4 Pikachu's favor.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Lol but you think every matchup is 55:45 against Mario, so...
Prove me wrong. I actually have reasons. You don't currently.

For the sake of clarity, Mario goes even against Falcon and possibly Fox, wins 55/45 against Little Mac, DeDeDe, and Robin probably, and several of his matchups improve anywhere from 5-15 points with customs. But most other characters do beat him slightly because he's actually just not that good in neutral...
 
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NachoOfCheese

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DKC2 is hype, this game needed more DKC2 music instead of 10 versions of jungle japes



I'm pretty confident saying that Ganon and Wii Fit Trainer are bad. Ganon especially I've seen so much hype about how he isn't so bad in this game and yet he's actually received some notable nerfs, and it's still easy to just walk around not committing to anything as nothing Ganon does is hard to react to and once you hit him he still gets trapped really badly. When he gets you in dtilt range or closer is the only time he can make you play honestly, near the ledge also for most characters, but he can't get there without exposing himself against better characters anyway.
probably going to lose to the next ganon I play...
I disagree. There's a reason why people are saying Ganon isn't bad in this game: he isn't. Fact is, a few good reads with Ganon and you're done. He can tech chase with flame choke and has a few fast moves at his disposal. WFT is solid from what I've seen. Not perfect, but to say she isn't viable would be an overstatement of her shortcomings. She has 2 great projectiles, quick tilts, and can crouch under most projectiles and many moves. Difficult to use effectively, but she has great potential and is underused in general. Not to mention that Deep breathing Bair... if that's not scary I don't know what is.
 

Zelder

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I would actually be very interested in your thoughts on why Mario goes 45:55 with almost everyone. You've hinted at it, but you've never laid it out (if I missed that post I apologize).

I'm not even trying to wind you up, you just seem very adamant about this opinion that seems very foreign to me (like I find it hard to believe that Mario in Smash 4 has a worse matchup spread than Mewtwo in Melee), and if you could explain further I'd be grateful.
 
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meleebrawler

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Getting real tired of hearing Mario having 45-55 matchups against almost everyone
as if it's absolutely horrible and dooms him viably...

Even if that matchup spread was true, 45:55 IS STILL PRETTY DAMN CLOSE TO EVEN, so if it happens
with the majority he still has a very realistic chance of doing well in tournaments no matter who
he faces.

Now I feel as if you're just envious Mario isn't being centralized in the meta right now
like Diddy is and making people automatically give him favourable matchups against
"inferior" characters like most top tiers tend to do.
 

Locke 06

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I mean...both the megaman and pacman players talk about how the Mario matchup is slightly in his favor.
Theoretically, the Mega Man boards have it as 55-45 in Mega's favor. However, due to actual results and general trouble with the MU, it is considered 40-60 in Mario's favor.

@ meleebrawler meleebrawler - if a character has 45-55 MU spread across the board, that character is bad. Discussing that point further is not worthwhile.
 
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Antonykun

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All righty since it seems everyone is calling me out on my Diddy/Wesker analogy let's see if I can go into a little detail.
Ok so I might not be the most absolutely aware of Wesker in MVC3 but I know these things happened to in the beginning of the game's life cycle
  • Wesker was the character with the highest skill/power ratio in Marvel 3 and one of the dominated the meta
  • Wesker's lack of flight or other multi-directional air mobility was not as important when he can KO everyone in a mix-up
  • As the meta developed, in about a year, TAC infinities caused everyone to be able to touch of death on a more consistent mix-up meaning Wesker's game dominating shenanigans are essintially not as special on top of his inability to have multi directional air mobility
  • Wesker fell of the top of the charts
What I am saying is that it is entirely possible for Diddy to go through what MVC3 Wesker went through. If i went back in time and said that Wesker was going to be an "ok" character, I would get laughed at because he had a strong neutral (at the time) on top of the rewards he would get from touching you AND his relative ease to play. Heck even after TACs were a thing people didn't just switch off Wesker until after a time.

Right now Diddy is a lot like early MVC3 Wesker. Both have massive rewards, great speeds, and a strong neutral (again for Wesker it was back then). I don't think that it is completely impossible for some new game changing tech to happen and for Diddy to be obselete.

Just to remind everyone I do beleive Diddy is strong but we have to remember that anything is possible.
 

A2ZOMG

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I would actually be very interested in your thoughts on why Mario goes 45:55 with almost everyone. You've hinted at it, but you've never laid it out (if I missed that post I apologize).

I'm not even trying to wind you up, you just seem very adamant about this opinion that seems very foreign to me (like I highly doubt that Mario in Smash 4 has a worse matchup spread Mewtwo in Melee), and if you could explain further I'd be grateful.
Simple. A lot of characters beat him in neutral, and don't really lose out in damage for it. Explaining this for 40 or so specific matchups is a lot.

Take something like Ganon vs Mario. I firmly believe this is 55/45 Ganon's favor, keeping in mind these are my two most played characters. Let's break down the tools.

Mario has:
*low % juggles to about 60%
*FLUDD, Cape, and N-air as primary edgeguard tools
*A fireball to limit mobility moderately
*Some basic KO confirm potential by pressuring landings with U-smash
*Decent aerial shield pressure with D-air and B-air

Ganondorf has:
*a long ranged LINGERING N-air which does more damage than Mario's B-air
*A good F-tilt and D-tilt for spacing on the ground
*Moves that on average...do like what, 14% a hit? Ganon also gets early throw combos that do like 20 damage and Flame Choke D-tilt/F-tilt which does about 26% fresh.
*massive aerials which are able to favorably trade with Mario's Up-B offstage

In this matchup, Mario's safest strategy is to try to force Ganondorf to make mistakes around fireball zoning and use that as an opportunity to juggle him. Yes, he will get some free damage on Ganondorf when he gets in, but Ganondorf can actually just straight up swat Mario's fireballs with N-air if he's being aggressive and beat any of Mario's aerials directly this way. The landing lag on N-air is low enough that this is not blatantly unsafe to throw out in neutral, and this can be spaced to cover dodges and inward rolls as well.

On the ground, Mario doesn't have it much easier. He has to hard read his way around both Ganon's D-tilt and F-tilt which outrange ALL of Mario's ground moves including F-smash. A good pivot F-tilt can stop a lot of Mario's approaches, and Mario also very easily gets gimped by F-tilt at moderately high percents. When Mario gets hit by D-tilt, he also has to deal with Ganondorf's amazing juggle game, which I believe speaks for itself. Even though Mario might be able to sneak his way in with cleverly timed dodges, he also risks opening himself up to Flame Choke and U-smash if he gets too defensive.

Given Mario has very poor landing options, he is very vulnerable to both Wizkick and Flame Choke in this matchup. These tools make it extremely difficult for Mario to land safely even if he's able to read his way around Ganon's U-air. Yes Ganondorf also has poor landing options, but Mario does have to respect aerial Wizkick, which trades with U-smash and KOs at like 80%.

Generally speaking, it's also easier for Ganondorf to edgeguard Mario than it is for Mario to edgeguard Ganondorf. Yes, in some positions, Mario might be able to harass Ganondorf with FLUDD and Cape, but most of these situations are only applicable in situations where the opponent DIs poorly and doesn't have enough space to airdodge or save double jump. When Ganondorf manages these resources well, Mario actually risks a lot trying to edgeguard Ganondorf due to the range on his aerials, which can often turn around an edgeguard attempt and give Ganondorf the KO. Most of the time, all Ganondorf needs to do in this matchup to not get gimped is to DI correctly, airdodge FLUDD, and recover low. Mario's only way to punish this is usually with free damage from N-air, or attempting a telegraphed stage spike with B-air. More often than not, Ganondorf usually should be fine offstage against Mario and usually has enough options to consistently avoid outright gimps.

When edgeguarding Mario, it's not always explicitly easy, but Ganondorf overall doesn't risk as much. As long as he's not in a position where Mario can stage spike with Up-B, he can simply try to intercept it with his N-air or F-air. Timed correctly (which is easier to do with N-air), these will trade and KO Mario. Alternatively, if Ganondorf is able to reach Mario before he's in range to Up-B, Mario can't really do much outside of hope he has double jump + airdodge available.

Mario is able to maintain some momentum in this matchup through juggles and safe on block aerials, but overall he struggles a lot more to secure the KO, and actually has to work hard to get around Ganon's superior range.

And Ganondorf is not even considered great in neutral by most people.
 
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Nobie

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Theoretically, the Mega Man boards have it as 55-45 in Mega's favor. However, due to actual results and general trouble with the MU, it is considered 40-60 in Mario's favor.

@ meleebrawler meleebrawler - if a character has 45-55 MU spread across the board, that character is bad. Discussing that point further is not worthwhile.
I think the big thing that puts the match slightly into Mario's favor is his superior aerial mobility.

As for the idea that a 45:55 matchup character would be considered bad, I have to disagree. A lot of character users in a lot of fighting games would dream of being just ever-so-slightly disadvantaged in a matchup, because it means that with just a bit more skill you can take down anyone and anything.

Edit: Actually I want to elaborate on this, because, if we are to assume for a moment that Mario is 45:55 vs. everyone, then it begins to make total sense why some see Mario as this great character who can compete with the top tiers (even if he isn't top tier himself), and why others believe him to be low tier.

The tricky thing with tiers and all of that business is that it assumes two players of equal, top-notch skill, and doesn't account for things like one player being better than the other. It shouldn't of course, because that's not what tier lists are meant to do. However, when you have a matchup that is unfavorable by merely the slimmest of margins, that's where a small difference in skill can really shine. In that situation, you're not the best Melee Bowser player in the world trying to use everything you can to barely keep up with Sheik (if even that), you're someone who can legitimately and consistently even things out and even take the advantage against any and all characters.

Again, a universal 45:55 matchup chart is nothing to scoff at or dismiss. it's so small a difference that I would argue a character has to be competitively viable if they have such a spread.
 
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Spinosaurus

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I think we'd be better off if we don't get another Wesker situation, strictly speaking, so we don't up with someone worse than Diddy.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Diddy can't be obsolete. Wesker had legit flaws by design that held him back in neutral.

Diddy does not have those flaws.
 

etecoon

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I disagree. There's a reason why people are saying Ganon isn't bad in this game: he isn't. Fact is, a few good reads with Ganon and you're done. He can tech chase with flame choke and has a few fast moves at his disposal.
Ganondorf getting a few reads and killing you for it is nothing new, nor is having a few CQC attacks that aren't so slow, all I'm really seeing for significant improvement is that his up B isn't a free hit anymore, and he gets scary set ups off ledge trumps. Other than that, he's still one of the most immobile in a game that highly rewards mobility, and still has poor options against ledge and landing traps which leads to the "few reads and you're dead" thing being a two way street except your opponent has better fundamental options so they don't have to go for hard reads constantly to win. It's hard to rock paper scissors people when they don't have to show their hand at the same time as you
 

David Viran

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Maybe diddy's bad horizontal aerial mobility will end up being a big flaw but who the heck knows.
 
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