Character Competitive Impressions

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

I think Jab is actually frame 7 (not that that's much better). The frame modifiers made the calculations a bit weird. Dash Attack is frame 6, so I guess that's also something.

Her aerial kit is very strong and doesn't share the lagginess of her ground game (slowest startup is DAir at 10f, fastest is NAir at 5). Warp is also pretty decent and gives her an escape option that most heavies would like to have.

And yes, her specials mostly suck otherwise (exception being Barrier which is strong in projectile MUs). I mean, I get that she's not good, and it's doubtful she's even mid-tier. But I just can't see her as worse than characters who have no blatantly strong aspects at all.

I think it's worth mentioning that AeroLink still thinks default Palutena is mid-tier and that she "holds her own vs most of the cast", even after dropping her for Diddy. Of course, he could just be incredibly biased.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

One thing I've come to realize is that no one really knows what they're talking about when they comment on Rosalina.

Half the commentary on her I've seen still identifies some of her moves wrong.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Spotdodge coming out frame 4 instead of frame 2 is a bigger buff to Flame Choke than it being techable is a nerf.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Half the commentary on her I've seen still identifies some of her moves wrong.

Yup and that's a problem they barely know her moves and then turn around and cry for ners. *smfh*

I think it's worth mentioning that AeroLink still thinks default Palutena is mid-tier and that she "holds her own vs most of the cast", even after dropping her for Diddy. Of course, he could just be incredibly biased.

The best palutena player dropping her is enough for me. If he felt she was as good as he clains why not rock with her?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yup and that's a problem they barely know her moves and then turn around and cry for ners. *smfh*



The best palutena player dropping her is enough for me. If he felt she was as good as he clains why not rock with her?

you said it yourself if i remember correctly but why bother with a mid tier over a top tier?

 

[Pyr]

The best palutena player dropping her is enough for me. If he felt she was as good as he clains why not rock with her?

Because "Good Enough" is lesser then "Best."

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Because "Good Enough" is lesser then "Best."

I'm not @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY and have no idea how you managed to quote me instead of him.

 

[Pyr]

I'm not @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY and have no idea how you managed to quote me instead of him.

No idea. I corrected it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think it's worth mentioning that AeroLink still thinks default Palutena is mid-tier and that she "holds her own vs most of the cast", even after dropping her for Diddy. Of course, he could just be incredibly biased.

Palutena really isn't drastically different from Ganondorf, to be honest. She's a very threat based character who excels in punish and capitalization situations. She trades some damage for gimmick utility and a safer negative state. I could believe AeroLink for saying default Palutena is probably mid tier. Clear strengths and weaknesses, and just enough to outplay people and maintain momentum.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

you said it yourself if i remember correctly but why bother with a mid tier over a top tier?

That's true I did say something like that. However, if you feel as though your character can compete why not run with them? Eventually you'll play who you feels gives you the best chance of winning or you'll just accept losing.

 

[Antonykun]

"Rosalina's heavy"

Had to pause the video...

The Galaxy she carries under her dress is heavy maaaaaaaaaaaan

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Because "Good Enough" is lesser then "Best."

This. There's a reason he went straight to Diddy over every other character. He wants to win and Diddy's the safest option, for now at least.

 

[Djent]

Holy Hell.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Holy Hell.

Ban mk

 

[Pyr]

I know that was training mode, but... That all looked legit. Especially after the footstool.

 

[Big O]

Holy Hell.

Wow. I guess Sakurai couldn't nerf him hard enough lol. It's looking like the trade-offs he made for real hitstun may just be worth it. Death combos off of one of the best dash attacks in the game is too legit.

 

[FullMoon]

Combos with footstools seem to be pretty popular. Greninja has quite a few as well but I don't think any of the ones he has can kill.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Ganon isn't a great character, but he's definitely not bottom 5. His moves, at least in the air, aren't even slow either, and have plenty of range and power to boot. Uair comes out frame 6, Nair frame 7, and Bair frame 10. Uair and Nair have great hitboxes, and Bair's power is impressive for its speed. His lack of anything comparable on the ground does hold him back, but the fact that most disjoints have been nerfed while Ganon's range is the same means fewer characters are able to beat his hitboxes with their own. Nobody wants to trade with or eat Ganon's moves, and the spotdodge nerf and increased shield commitment makes Flame Choke mixups much harder to dodge on reaction. There isn't actually a reliable way to keep him out unless you've got something really stupid like Luma or a slingshot. He's got a few bad matchups that keep him from really being viable at a high level, but he's low-mid, not bottom.

 

[Nu~]

Holy Hell.

Pfft. Child's play

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rn8OkI7wnIU


But seriously, those Meta Knight combos are sick.

 

[warionumbah2]

Holy Hell.

beautiful isn't it?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wow. I guess Sakurai couldn't nerf him hard enough lol. It's looking like the trade-offs he made for real hitstun may just be worth it. Death combos off of one of the best dash attacks in the game is too legit.

Setups are very position/DI/percent/rage dependent though. Not broken at all.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Wait what I would definitely say that zss is way better at juggling than at edge guarding. Her mobility and the the fact that her uair can frame trap air dodges very well and well her frame traps in general are very good. Most of what she has when edge guarding is dsmash when you are at the ledge or Bair you off stage. She has one of the best juggle games imo.

Zero Suit is probably one of the worst ledge guarders for ROB, solely because of her range. ROB doesn't have a lot of ledge options (ledge attack, drop down-> jump gyro/ fair/ uair, or jumping over her). Zero suit's fast up B, long range up smash, and quick uair make jumping above her very difficult, and she'll often be out of range of his ledge attack. And losing ledge invincibility is quite risky/ less predictable.
The other high tiers don't have the disjoints that she has, thus it certainly gives her the edge in that respect. For ROB- on most of the high tier, a fair is a pretty solid option, but it's much tougher to get close to her, opposed to the other high tiers.

I'd rather eat a hit from Zero Suit's up air, rather than Rosalina/ Diddy/ Yoshi/ Sheik/ fox. At least from a Zero Suit, you probably won't die.

As far as juggling goes, ROB doesn't fall at the same speed that Zero Suit does. I've found her frame traps to be annoying, but she often has to use her second jump if he is slightly out of reach. It depends on the precision of the zero suit/ if ROB has his jump/ etc. If she is positioned correctly, ROB takes a hit, and be sent out of reach of another hit. So it's likely that he'll only take one hit before she lands on the ground. After which, I'm either charging up a fast fall nair/ falling to the other side of the stage/ tossing gyros where Zero Suit might land/ etc. That's opposed to characters, like Diddy or Luigi, who can get ~2-3 up airs hits off in one jump. She's not nearly as scary as some of the other top dogs' up airs.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Holy Hell.

Hell...YES!!!!!

 

[etecoon]

Ganon gets free dtilts on most characters that miss the tech, which can kill at really stupid percents. Getting a sideB on the edge of the stage is pretty easy to end a stock with (pivot) ftilt, as they cant (tech)roll away from Ganon in this case.

Being unable to tech Ganon's sideB would definitely help him out, but may make his punishes a little too damn crazy.

Also Ganondorf could not have AC Dair with this amount of hitstun. His follow up game is very diverse and scary this time around. He was rebalanced, not really nerfed. Better to be safer, weaker and more reliable than to be a power house that can never hit anything.

Teching Gerudo is a bit of a needed drawback in a game where his free hits would lead into more free hits. Dtilt and Dash attack lead into powerful aerials so it could have been a bit much.

Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Pikachu, Rosalina...the good characters in this game are exactly what you'd expect based on history, I can't buy into this idea of Ganondorf being one or two more overpowering moves away from being broken*. We're talking about dair comboing here, not IC death grabs(still couldn't elevate that character to best in the game). And if they had gone too far with Ganondorf they could have patched it after the fact, no reason to be too conservative out of the gate on the kind of character that is never that good

Pretty sure it's not a free dtilt on reaction, if your opponent is missing techs often enough where you can just go for it and not get punished often, that isn't because the move is just that good

*quick attack?

Flame Choke being techable is waaaay less big of a deal than you think it is when you realize that Flame Choke itself does 12% and he can STILL punish the techroll if he reads it, and that near the corner the mixups are basically just as deadly if not more than they were in Brawl. Old Flame Choke gave you almost no reward for techchase regrabbing given it only did 9% that game.

9% for a grab that puts you in that situation isn't bad, a few regrabs is good for damage but more importantly your odds of landing a kill move out of that was greater(well, early kill move, Ganondorf doesn't have non-kill moves...). The ability to regrab also made it so if you tried to just roll away to avoid the worst punishes you'd eventually run out of stage, so not only can you no longer use your harder hitting attacks out of a teched choke anyway but you have a harder time forcing the most advantageous situation also

Though I'd rather have a faster flame choke than one with greater reward, Ganondorf with the ability to actually grab you at not point blank...

 

[David Viran]

Zero Suit is probably one of the worst ledge guarders for ROB, solely because of her range. ROB doesn't have a lot of ledge options (ledge attack, drop down-> jump gyro/ fair/ uair, or jumping over her). Zero suit's fast up B, long range up smash, and quick uair make jumping above her very difficult, and she'll often be out of range of his ledge attack. And losing ledge invincibility is quite risky/ less predictable.
The other high tiers don't have the disjoints that she has, thus it certainly gives her the edge in that respect. For ROB- on most of the high tier, a fair is a pretty solid option, but it's much tougher to get close to her, opposed to the other high tiers.

I'd rather eat a hit from Zero Suit's up air, rather than Rosalina/ Diddy/ Yoshi/ Sheik/ fox. At least from a Zero Suit, you probably won't die.

As far as juggling goes, ROB doesn't fall at the same speed that Zero Suit does. I've found her frame traps to be annoying, but she often has to use her second jump if he is slightly out of reach. It depends on the precision of the zero suit/ if ROB has his jump/ etc. If she is positioned correctly, ROB takes a hit, and be sent out of reach of another hit. So it's likely that he'll only take one hit before she lands on the ground. After which, I'm either charging up a fast fall nair/ falling to the other side of the stage/ tossing gyros where Zero Suit might land/ etc. That's opposed to characters, like Diddy or Luigi, who can get ~2-3 up airs hits off in one jump. She's not nearly as scary as some of the other top dogs' up airs.

I think you underestimate zss's uair. Yeah it doesn't kill the earliest but it can combo more reliably than those other uairs you mentioned and goes into her strongest kill move up b. She can keep you above her longer than most of the other characters. Also I wouldn't call up b a good move to edge guard with because it leaves you super open if you miss.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why the f are you people still talking this BULL****!?!?!

CUSTOMS ON AT EVO!!!!!!!

LES GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

 

[Big O]

Setups are very position/DI/percent/rage dependent though. Not broken at all.

I'm actually looking forward to MK's return to glory. I just phrased my response with a bit of sarcasm lol.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why the f are you people still talking this BULL****!?!?!

CUSTOMS ON AT EVO!!!!!!!

LES GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Awww yeah.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Teshie U]

@ E etecoon , its not that he would shoot up to the number 1 spot with auto cancel Dair, its that it would be an overshadowing option for the character that would result in spamming an overly safe, overly rewarding move. From a design perspective you don't want a character to be viable simply because they can use 1 tactic over and over and over.

 

[Nu~]

Why the f are you people still talking this BULL****!?!?!

CUSTOMS ON AT EVO!!!!!!!

LES GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

And now the full extent of the meta can evolve!!!

 

[Pyr]

Something about me likes looking at the first 300 or so pages and seeing all those character viability discussions and tier placements and the tier list postings... And knowing that, with 1 official change, it has to be done again.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Something about me likes looking at the first 300 or so pages and seeing all those character viability discussions and tier placements and the tier list postings... And knowing that, with 1 official change, it has to be done again.

I do it gladly brother.

With renewed hope that NOW, this truly is the greatest and most balanced Smash game ever created.

 

[meleebrawler]

Unfortunately having the best range is meaningless if you move start up so slow. Think about what made mk and marth so good in brawl. They out ranged everyone whike having moves that were quick on start up. If shulk had this he'd be a lot bigger of a threat. However as it stands that's not the case. As long as you get in his range you can mess him up. So characters with superior mobility and quicker moves are going to eat him alive.

So why isn't Dedede on your list, he has comparable range but even slower moves?

Mario is probably the most overrated character by the Smash community to be frank. I don't understand how people believe his matchups on default settings are good. He struggles in midrange, and doesn't have easy ways of regaining lost momentum. And his reward is only situationally good either at very specific percent ranges or in specific matchups. His U-smash is a good KO move, but he has a hell of a time landing it when you just simply ledge reset against him constantly given he basically isn't a threat when it comes to ledge pressure or low edgeguards.

As I've stated before, his best matchups against good characters are vs Fox and Falcon, which are even. He is disadvantaged to all the other currently strong characters.

And the rest is 45-55 according to you, only very slight disadvantages.
Mario doesn't win because of any particular tricks in his moveset, it's the fact that said moveset
coupled with his well-rounded mobility rarely leaves you wanting when used correctly.
Like his Melee trophy states, he reflects the skill of the player and so how much you get
out of him depends on your skill. He has no glaring flaws except perhaps a straightforward recovery,
and low damage moves can be overcome fairly easily.

Palutena really isn't drastically different from Ganondorf, to be honest. She's a very threat based character who excels in punish and capitalization situations. She trades some damage for gimmick utility and a safer negative state. I could believe AeroLink for saying default Palutena is probably mid tier. Clear strengths and weaknesses, and just enough to outplay people and maintain momentum.

And weight for ground speed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

9% for a grab that puts you in that situation isn't bad, a few regrabs is good for damage but more importantly your odds of landing a kill move out of that was greater(well, early kill move, Ganondorf doesn't have non-kill moves...). The ability to regrab also made it so if you tried to just roll away to avoid the worst punishes you'd eventually run out of stage, so not only can you no longer use your harder hitting attacks out of a teched choke anyway but you have a harder time forcing the most advantageous situation also

Though I'd rather have a faster flame choke than one with greater reward, Ganondorf with the ability to actually grab you at not point blank...

Spotdodge nerf and slight tweaks to Flame Choke startup animation make it CONSIDERABLY harder to avoid reactively.

Also Ganondorf can still techchase characters who techroll away with another Flame Choke, so...really Ganondorf loses extremely little overall from Flame Choke being techable. Also all of his moves in this game even without factoring Rage kill considerably earlier in this game, so his actual rewards from hard reads are better too.

 

[Timbers]

Pretty sure it's not a free dtilt on reaction, if your opponent is missing techs often enough where you can just go for it and not get punished often, that isn't because the move is just that good

I feel like both of the posts you quoted laid it out pretty clearly that dtilts were free if sideB couldn't be teched. Meaning, not in this game.

Techroll animation also starts before Ganon can act out of sideB endlag. Dtilt is fine to use on reaction. To drill this home though: no one should rely on missed techs. Ganon still has options to pressure techrolls, especially on the edge.

 

[Smog Frog]

those mk combos pale in comparison to ****** mii brawlers combos

we're talking **** like 50% off of a falling uair

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Why the f are you people still talking this BULL****!?!?!

CUSTOMS ON AT EVO!!!!!!!

LES GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Real talk, does this basically mean that going forward we can assume customs for all character discussion? Because if I'm being frank, I can't see customs fading away quietly after EVO unless something goes horribly wrong.

 

[David Viran]

Weren't you able to tech side B in brawl?



Unfortunately having the best range is meaningless if you move start up so slow. Think about what made mk and marth so good in brawl. They out ranged everyone whike having moves that were quick on start up. If shulk had this he'd be a lot bigger of a threat. However as it stands that's not the case. As long as you get in his range you can mess him up. So characters with superior mobility and quicker moves are going to eat him alive.

Look at zss's dsmash and side b in brawl. They had horrendous start up but still were very good for spacing.

 

[Pyr]

Real talk, does this basically mean that going forward we can assume customs for all character discussion? Because if I'm being frank, I can't see customs fading away quietly after EVO unless something goes horribly wrong.

Considering it's one of the biggest, if not THE biggest, Fighting Game Tournament available for several games and the same for several FGC, the exposure alone will let it stay very relevant.

 

[Teshie U]

Spotdodge nerf and slight tweaks to Flame Choke startup animation make it CONSIDERABLY harder to avoid reactively.

Also Ganondorf can still techchase characters who techroll away with another Flame Choke, so...really Ganondorf loses extremely little overall from Flame Choke being techable. Also all of his moves in this game even without factoring Rage kill considerably earlier in this game, so his actual rewards from hard reads are better too.

Doesn't the regrab mechanic forfeit any possibility of chain-choking in this game?

In any case, tech options are weaker in this game, despite being harder to set up. Dash Attack, Dtilt and Ftilt are all viable when techs are missed and when they tech roll or in place. This lets him cover a set of options instead of just one.