Character Specific Counterpicks/Bans: Kirby

[MdrnDayMercutio]

I don't even talk to other Diddy players sadly. I have an idea though...

ADHD, NinjaLink, GNes.

Hmm... who else plays Diddy and might name search and can help out.

Turtle/RVKevin, AlphaZealot.

Too bad Anther is posting in here. He's probably played AZ plenty and could give good CPs.

...

That's the best I can do.

 

[KayLo!]

Hehe, thanks, that'll hopefully work. =P

I'll go ask NinjaLink. *runs offff~*

 

[NinjaLink]

-sneaks in-

Yoshis is a good CP


-sneaks out-

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Yoshis? How the hell would that work?

So I am thinking my strikes are right and my ban is right.

CPs would be RC, Frigate, and Halberd in that order?

Sound good to you guys?

 

[AvalancheBarrage]

In yoshis wouldn't the bananas land on the platform in the middle, so as long as you're on the bottom you're mostly fine.

Not that I really know anything about this MU, but meh.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

In yoshis wouldn't the bananas land on the platform in the middle, so as long as you're on the bottom you're mostly fine.

Not that I really know anything about this MU, but meh.

They could just bring it down there. Pretty sure the bananas don't bounce off of you if they throw them at us and go on the platform. If they do, its just a little more difficult for them, but it ****s us up too. I'm not gonna put it. I'm finalizing.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hows Brinstar against Diddy?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Hows Brinstar against Diddy?

Its a bad level for diddy but its a bad level for us too. It isn't worth it.

DISCUSS DONKEY KONG

 

[KayLo!]

Woah, totalitarian thread going on here.

If people still want to discuss Diddy, there's no rush..... and if someone like NinjaLink (who plays both Diddy and Pika at a high level) says Yoshi's is a good CP, maybe we should at least discuss it before saying, "Nope, I already made my decision even though I admitted I know nothing about what stages we should pick," lol.

A better method of doing the thread might be to discuss first and kind of put your suggestions into the main mix. The way it is now, it seems like you put down what you think in the OP, then it's our job to convince you otherwise...... I feel like this might cause some problems when discussing more controversial characters (like Diddy).

 

[NinjaLink]

<3 Kaylo

Well first reason has been said. Bananas bounce to the top platform so less locks on u.
Second, Gimps. If diddy tries to recover straight up, one jolt will go along the wall and hit him out of it.
Third, Camp. U could ledge camp if needed being jolts go along the wall. Hard for diddy to stop this.
Fourth, Evasiveness. U have options moving around with QAC. From the ledge (if u were camping maybe lol) u have a choice to QAC to the platform or under it.

Kno what.....fug numbering lol. Yoshis, Halberd and Frigate have the same structure. Whats the difference between them? Lets see

Yoshis - High ceiling, wall for easy gimping and strategy(wall clinging for diddy....but u have a joly for that lol)

Halberd - Low ceiling, bottom u can recover through (which is good for both u and diddy), and low bottom ( which is also good for u both)

Frigate first formation - Low ceiling, platform on left side (i believe diddy can use this to advantage), no ledge on the right (ur advantage), moving platform (camping area/ diddy can wall lock u area lol

Frigate second formation - Low ceiling, platfom in center with a slight pit like Halberd but smaller area in pit (u can duck bananas i believe)

So there u have it. Any questions?

btw.....my descriptions is pro lol

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I put yoshis there, but QAC doesn't really work too well on that stage, the slopes mess it up...idk what you guys are talking about >_>.

So yeah...DK?

 

[KayLo!]

I like flat stages vs. DK. And lots of space to camp.

Strikes: Yoshi's, Battlefield, Lylat, Smashville, FD
Ban: Brinstar (that's pretty much my ban for anybody I don't know well x.x)
CP: FD, Delfino, SV

All in that order.

Also: I feel like this is a conversation between me, ESAM, and whatever mains from the other guy decide to show up, lol..... more Pikas contribute!

 

[Nicholas1024]

I don't know much about the matchup, but from a purely theory-crafting point of view, I'd ban Jungle japes. We can't kill there due to high ceiling, the platform layout is perfect for DK's recovery, and if he spikes us into the water, we're dead.

 

[altairian]

If japes is legal and you're playing against a DK, ban the mother****ing **** out of that stage. It's his playground, and any good DK will beat you soundly there 100% of the time.

Strikes: Yoshi's, Lylat (does his up-b super armor nonsense work on this stage?), BF, SV, FD
Ban: Japes, Brinstar, Yoshi's
CP: FD, SV, PS1

 

[MdrnDayMercutio]

Yes. It can work on Lylat.

 

[KayLo!]

Oh. Maybe I'd switch BF + Lylat in my strikes, then..... not sure.

Inviting the DKs.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

BTW, Japes isn't on the stage list we are discussing. It is used seldom anywhere so...nope.

Also, BF is amazing for DK and the platforms mess us up worse than they mess him up. It also is decently large at the sides helping him get his momentum break which can save his life a few times over.

His invulnerability Up-b really isn't that big of a deal on lylat, and most DK's will not risk it because of the ship tilts right then DK suicides. Also, there is a magical thing of shield or don't pressure him at the edge once he gets back. If he is out there, sure go ahead. When he is on the ledge, sure throw T-jolts. But don't get right next to him, you are just asking to get up-b'd or u-aired.

So brinstar is definitely the ban.

Also, do you think castle siege would be good becasue we can camp on the big parts and we can walk-off CG?

 

[altairian]

BTW, Japes isn't on the stage list we are discussing. It is used seldom anywhere so...nope.

I don't see why you insist on leaving out stages that are used in tourneys. Just because you don't agree with it being used in tourney doesn't change the fact that it's used. This thread will be pretty useless for newer players if it just ignores pointing out something as blatantly unbalanced as DK on japes purely because some regions don't use the stage.

 

[Anther]

Personally... FD is my best stage against Diddy Kong. I just have a tougher time managing things against him when he has platforms to work with. .. But I could be in a minority in my feelings toward that counterpick... lol x.X;.
I strike around FD for the first match, and then let them pick FD or I pick it as a counterpick.

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

I don't see why you insist on leaving out stages that are used in tourneys. Just because you don't agree with it being used in tourney doesn't change the fact that it's used. This thread will be pretty useless for newer players if it just ignores pointing out something as blatantly unbalanced as DK on japes purely because some regions don't use the stage.

I think the idea of the restricted stage list is to reduce the scope of discussion to the most commonly used stages to help keep things moving, otherwise we could potentially get stuck discussing ad infinitum what to do with all the possible stage permutations, on just one character.

Though, a passing mention of notable, occasionally available stages that can totally muck up the strike/ban process might be worth mentioning (for this go round).

Once we're done, I see little harm in taking a second pass through the roster allowing the remainder of the stages still not outright banned by the suggested ruleset, because the most globally useful stuff will have been discussed. At this point, discussion of the more corner-case contingencies might make a little more sense.

 

[altairian]

I think the idea of the restricted stage list is to reduce the scope of discussion to the most commonly used stages to help keep things moving, otherwise we could potentially get stuck discussing ad infinitum what to do with all the possible stage permutations, on just one character.

Though, a passing mention of notable, occasionally available stages that can totally muck up the strike/ban process might be worth mentioning (for this go round).

Once we're done, I see little harm in taking a second pass through the roster allowing the remainder of the stages still not outright banned by the suggested ruleset, because the most globally useful stuff will have been discussed. At this point, discussion of the more corner-case contingencies might make a little more sense.

except...he never listed what stages we actually are discussing, other than his set of 5 neutrals (which again I don't see how it changes the discussion in any way to add PS1 in to the list of possible neutrals).

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

except...he never listed what stages we actually are discussing, other than his set of 5 neutrals (which again I don't see how it changes the discussion in any way to add PS1 in to the list of possible neutrals).

It's not in the OP, but check out posts 2 and 3.

Though I would certainly be for adding PS1 to the list of starters going forward (since it's just a strike preference ordering, having an even number of starters probably wouldn't hurt).

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, I think he limited the number of stages because most regions use the more conservative list. The only region that really uses anything crazy is the Midwest.

If people want to mention stages not on "the list," I think it's fine to point them out.... because obviously it'll help that small minority that needs the info. But for the sake of streamlining discussion and not getting off track on things that most people won't care about, keeping the main focus on the conservative stage list is probably better.

Just my opinion!

Also, do you think castle siege would be good becasue we can camp on the big parts and we can walk-off CG?

Castle Siege would be such an amazing stage for Pika......... if it wasn't for the first transformation. -_-

The second and third stages of it are definitely good, but the first part would be pretty dangerous vs. DK. It's too cramped, the platforms are in a layout that's bad for camping and approaching, and.... I just see DK doing a lot of damage in this one part alone.

Imo, it's too much of a mixed bag to be a solid CP. FD, SV, Delfino, and even (barely) PS1 seem better.

Personally... FD is my best stage against Diddy Kong. I just have a tougher time managing things against him when he has platforms to work with. .. But I could be in a minority in my feelings toward that counterpick... lol x.X;.
I strike around FD for the first match, and then let them pick FD or I pick it as a counterpick.

Sooo late, but thanks for the input, hehe. I can see FD being all right vs. Diddy for Pika purely because of tjolts, but I still think it's a very, very risky CP. As in: if you don't know the matchup extremely well, the average Pikachu would not do well there at all.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I agree with kaylo about anther's post (Don't feel like quoting it). If you know the matchup and can handle bananas and know both diddy kong and pikachu REALLY well then you can use FD...but it is still risky because of the % you get from banana combos which are stupid easy to land on FD because we can't run on a platform.

Also, I don't want people really in-depth discussing stages that 99% of pika's won't use. If you are that 1%, you probably know the player's around your region and their CPs so you can just ban that.

I'm gonna edit the stage list we are using into the OP, and those will be the MAIN discussion points. If you have a question about a stage feel free to bring it up, but don't expect an analysis of it more than "Its good for X character because this this and is bad for us because this this" IF even i/somebody else give that much.

So no castle siege for DK.

 

[KayLo!]

I completely forgot to invite the DKs.

Let me do that right now before I forget again.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Go ahead Kaylo!

For when you DKs get here, what is a better stage for you: Battlefield or Lylat? It determines our strikes.

 

[Kitsune-kun]

I personaly prefer go on Battlefield against Pikachu than to go on Lylat :o
And I'd strike FD and SV.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

So the first match would end up being lylat...ok cool.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Uh....anybody else have anything to add?

 

[gamesuxcard]

We've got a pretty beast DK here and I like taking him to PS1 and Delfino, dunno if that's just me or not though. As for striking stages against him, well you really want FD. If you're confident on the platform on yoshi's and like spamming the wall/stage from the ledge take him there, watch out for u tilits and u smash reads though. also his nair will kill you if you don't play around it, having a place with less space for him to predict you like fd or sv would be the best ( i say this because he's going to be trying to read your qac, BE ORIGINAL), but if he's striking those I think your best bet is to take him to Lylat. Having multiple platforms at the same level to qac to is important when spacing around him, but your cg can get screwed. We have an advantage against dk, just space smart. You can beat him on any neutral.

As for Diddy, I play dekar a lot and like taking him to ps1 but only because that's my most comfortable stage. I would go more in depth but apparently we're supposed to be talking about dk nao.

And I don't care how good you think you are on FD DIDDY IS BETTER.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Anybody else? Otherwise I'm finishing this up and starting the next character.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Updated. Falco time

Falco:
ESAM's suggestion

Stage Strikes: BF, YI, SV, Lylat, FD
Any place with platforms is detrimental to our game vs Falco. All we want is a grab, and it is still pretty easy to get. BF is actually good for falco since he can maneuver decently on platforms. YI is just weird for me when I cg, so i don't like ti vs him. SV, Lylat, and FD are all amazing. FD and SV because of the lack of anything to stop us. Lylat's tilting makes Falco die if he >B's at the wrong time, so it makes him go on the level which = grab.

Counterpicks: Frigate, Rainbow Cruise, Halberd

Frigate is just a horrible Falco Level. Halberd doesn't really have much to interrupt CGs and is still one of Pika's best levels, and RC is a bad falco level which can help us win since his Up-b is horrendous. If we knock him off on Frigate on the right side of the first part or at RC on any part while it is going up, we should get grabs or at least decent damage.

Bans: Personal least favorite stage

There really is no bad level against Falco IMO, the MU is too far in our favor, so your personal dislike will be your ban.

 

[altairian]

ESAM summed it up pretty well. Delfino might be ban-worthy if you think the Falco you're playing might go there, the water is pretty dangerous against him. Most Falcos probably wouldn't go there, but you never know. And again if Japes is on (yeah yeah most regions don't use it I get it) then definitely ban that. Laser camping + spikes on Japes = you lose.

 

[KayLo!]

Don't have much Falco experience, but I agree with banning the **** out of Japes if it's legal in your area. Otherwise, I just do the usual when I dunno what to ban: Brinstar.

Frigate sounds really appealing as a CP.... I cosign that.

I'll invite the Falcos!

 

[Denzi]

Well you've got the right idea banning Japes. I would suggest striking Lylat/Yoshi's, as the different angles of the stage mess with your CG.

As for counterpicks, Frigate is a solid option. I don't know how Pika does on Rainbow Cruise, but it's a pretty terrible place for Falco.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

True, Lylat is bad because the tilting of the ship can mess up our CGs. I never fight on the platform on Yoshi's so I'm normally not effected by the tilting of that. SV and FD are our obvious choice. Falcos, what would you rather play on, BF or YI?

 

[~automatic]

Frigate is a must CP against Falco imo. I like Yoshi's vs Falco as well.

 

[M@v]

Falco's worst stages:

Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Lylat Cruise

Brinstar and RC are on a higher level of bad than lylat. Lylat is a solid 3rd worst. Then pretty much every other stage for falco isn't "bad" per say. There might be bad parts(first section of halberd), but overall nothing terrible.

Best stages are FD and japes(where legal). Ps1 is awesome too if you know how to handle yourself on the different phases. but vs a pika, a falco will probably be looking for platforms, so expect them to go for BF or yoshi's for the first match. CP could a bunch of things; depends on the player.

In direct response to ESAM: It honestly depends. BF is better for Falco, and he can cancel his illusions and IAP here easier. However, if your like me, I like going to stages people are less familiar with sometimes. Good or bad, most players won't have as much experience on yoshi's as they do bf, since it normally gets striked by someone. The top platform helps vs the grab as well. Its really a personal choice imo, but most would probably prefer bf.

 

[Marcbri]

Lylat is not that bad for falco, it's a pretty decent stage if you know the stage well ( how not to get sideb lag, how to recover correctly, etc.

I'd rather play lylat anytime than FD vs pika. if pika's like cps they can go to rainbow, frigate or brinstar, if not other options I'd say Delfino, FD and halberd ( this one is good for both in the match-up but I think pika is overall more benefitted by the low ceiling) are also good choices.

My cp vs pika would easily be BF and if it was banned, stadium/SV/yoshis

 

[Keitaro]

If I were fighting a Pika I'd cp stages like Battlefield or Lylat.

Any stage where Pika has flat planes is probably horrible for Falco but at the same time if the stage is wide it gives Falco alot of running away space. FD is probably the best stage for a Pika to go against Falco. Smashville is probably second. Wish Falco could have 2 bans :/