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Cheese

D

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zair: fantastic

since snake is a tall character the zair almost always connects. the zair is an amazing approach in this match because there is no way that snake can punish you even if he shields it. using attacks out of the zair is how i start most of my combos on snake

jab cancel: fantastic

Link's jab has more distance than snake's jab. this is actually the match where i started using the jab reset because most snake players will try to get a ftilt in after the second jab. I always end up killing snakes with the jab > up b combo.

kill moves: fsmash, ftilt, up b, dair
 

Bouse

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Just to let you guys know, my laptop is currently dead so I will be posting this on a crappy desktop. Updates will slow down for about a week, week and a half. Meaning I won't be able to check it every 4 hours. More like every 8-10.

Also, Izaw and Arkive will have the pleasure of not being spammed by me on MSN.

Not to mention; give me proposed ratios and thoughts on some of the stuff I listed.

I mean ****... give me SOMETHING to work with. I told you *******s. Give me a paragraph on your thoughts. I need simply the following in the "Listing" portion of the post.
Jab Cancel -->Explanation
Zair -->Explanation
Match-Up Ratio
(Paragraph explaining why and general strat.)

I'd prefer if I didn't have to explain this again when I come to the next matchup. I'll add a blurb in the main post, but the good Links... you know who you are.

:uzi::grrr::crazy::mad:You should know better:mad::crazy::grrr::enforcer:
 

Bouse

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Nope, Snake is easier to fight than most characters for Link. I'll explain later, but I've just never viewed Snake as a threat to Link. It's 5 AM, I'm tired, I have to be awake at 1:00 pm.

The matchup would be 45:55 at best 40:60 at worst.

Anywho, goodnight.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Nope, Snake is easier to fight than most characters for Link. I'll explain later, but I've just never viewed Snake as a threat to Link.
you don't see snake as a threat how?

most link players can't kill him till 140%+, they can't edge guard him, they always get ***** by the ftilt and bair and they always get grab combo'd by him. To a lot of link mains, snake is an amazingly unbalanced fight.

the only people i can imagine that stand a chance in this fight are me, legan, izaw and deva
 

Ich Bin Awesome

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you don't see snake as a threat how?

most link players can't kill him till 140%+, they can't edge guard him, they always get ***** by the ftilt and bair and they always get grab combo'd by him. To a lot of link mains, snake is an amazingly unbalanced fight.

the only people i can imagine that stand a chance in this fight are me, legan, izaw and deva
Snake can be beaten, but you need to think before you attack. In the game of chess you can never let your opponent's see your pieces.

--SIGNATURE HERE--
 

Bouse

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you don't see snake as a threat how?

most link players can't kill him till 140%+, they can't edge guard him, they always get ***** by the ftilt and bair and they always get grab combo'd by him. To a lot of link mains, snake is an amazingly unbalanced fight.

the only people i can imagine that stand a chance in this fight are me, legan, izaw and deva
*shrug* Snake is an intimidating fight I'm not going to lie. If you have the basic attitude that I do which is, simply, not caring who I'm fighting. Worrying too much about a Snake is what gets people killed, they try to build up damage quick. You can outcamp a Snake if you use a properly timed spam. I'll admit that the killshot may be harder to get against a campy Snake, but building up the damage that's the easier part.

He's better than Link definitely, but once you know what you're doing.. only slightly. This matchup thread isn't designed for the random 12 year olds who play Link. It's designed so that at a competitive level of play: What can a Link do against a Snake?

Giving Link a major disadvantage is mildly silly, if anything it's slight.

Snake can be beaten, but you need to think before you attack. In the game of chess you can never let your opponent's see your pieces.
Thank you for being so amazingly vague and contributing nothing to this thread.
 

Finns7

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Messages
896
When I play against Snake its usually a **** party. You can combo him to hell and back because of his wieght. Learn how to DI the jab and nair and if you sidestep the ftilt there is usually enough time to get in a smash. the boomerang stops nades um zair can lead to grab which can refresh your moves which is essential against Snake. Jab cancel to grab unless he is by the edge and can be fsmashed or if he has really high percent do a dsmash. Dont overuse your killing moves, Link can chain together attacks with the help of his projectiles so if there is an opening do something else other than a fsmash because fighting a snake that you cant kill at 150 is gay. Shield grabbing is important and the most important thing about playing Snake is learning how to DI correctly, I have survived ftilts at 120% at the edge by DIing correctly (with the help of move decay).
 

Bouse

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I'll try to finish up the Snake Entry either sometime tonight or Saturday. I'm running on 2 days without sleep and on top of that I'm going out tonight.
If you don't hear from me in three days, tell Aurashade... I love him.
 

BrimeZ

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Wow, I had no idea there was a match up thread here all this time, I'm late lol.

Eventhough Snake is one of the best characters in the game, I'm pretty sure that Link vs Snake is a even match up, if not slightly in Links favor.

One of the things that I like about the Link vs Snake match up is that it makes Link's spin attack more useful do to the Snakes approach. Link can hit Snake out of the DAC easily with the Dair, Fsmash, Nair, bomb and Up B. He can also shield grab him out of it by catching the attack with the shield and grabbing in the opposite direction. The boomerang can canel the DAC, and the Arrow can cancel the DAC most of the time I belive( I think only the upsmash part, but I'm not sure).

Link's Zair is very good when approaching any character as we all know, and he spamming projectiles against snakes is easier to do to Snake than with most characters save when he's DACing. But the projectiles usually pressure Snakes into the DACing, where Link can counter with the Dair, Nair, etc.... But it's much better to spam up close, because the further you are away, the easier it is for Snake to spam back

Since Sanke is heavy, Link can juggle and combo Snake easier than most of the characters on the roster. Also stages with platforms, helps Link out with because he can control snake with moves like the up titl, zair, projectiles, etc...,

Link vs Snake up close in Snakes favor because eventhough Link has more range, if you miss your moves, Snake will punish you with his unfair hit boxes, which he can do out of the shield faster the Link can.

Edgeguarding wouldn't be a problem if Snake couldn't go so high. But Link can easily Dair Snake for the kill most of the time, and use the boomerang the set up other tricks to edgegaurd. Link can egdgeguard Snake better on stages with platforms because you cna punish Snake trying to land on the stage intstead of the ledge more. Using the projectiles to mindgame snakes into the Dair is the concept I believe. Also you can use Links other arials to edgeguard Snake because they do get through Snakes super armor and they have high kncok back, but its risky.

Recovering against Snakes horizontally is pretty hard do to Snakes bair, but you can manage to throw a projectile, you should be okay. Using the Dair when you're kncoked horizontally will help you out a great deal, as like all the characters. Snake also has more trouble killing Link vertically due to the Dair.
 

4Serial

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A good way to kill Snake when he's recovering is to just let him get up high and near the stage. Then you can just read his airdodge with a d-air and kill him. Don't go behind him or he'll b-air, if you're too low, the d-air won't hit him, and if Snake tries to d-air, just DI out of the first few hits and you can probably grab him if he's suffering from lag. Same with n-air, which i doubt a Snake would do in that situation. f-air is too slow and d-air will just hit him. I don't know anyone that would u-air if you are below them. Either way, when Snake is up there, he'll probably get hit.

Z-air is good in this match up. It can hit him out of his dash attack/snake dash approach. So will arrows and the boomerang. I've found FHDAs to work will in this match if Snake is just grenade camping. Don't use punishable moves or you'll get f-tilted out of shield by Snake. Shield the f-tilt and grab him a lot. Jab out of shield a lot. I'm pretty sure everything else is covered.
 

Bouse

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Come on, no one get the futurama reference?
Some days I can be a humorless evil individual. Other days I can be an overly sarcastic a$$hole of an individual.

Really, just depends on the day.

Expect a Snake write-up by about 3-5 pm EST today. Be ready to comment on and correct anything you feel is "off". The post may be finalized 8/24/08 12:01 am. Thought due to the level of concern surrounding this matchup it may have a prolonged discussion period.
 

4Serial

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from what I see, you're maneuvering around the stage really tricky. making it extremely hard for him to approach with projectiles (mostly arrows? always have a boomerang out, retreat and maneuver with bombs) not z-airing a lot. retreating z-airs is most useful to get him away. like i mentioned before, his snakedash goes under and through your z-air. it's really weird. basically, if you feel you're too close to snake, RETREAT! don't get into that f-tilt range. jab a lot to get him off, rack up damage with projectiles, u-smash and u-tilt is good at juggling him, grab whenever possible, finish with the usual.
 

Bouse

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Snake entry added. Comment as needed.

To be honest I see it as 55-45, but for the most part it's understandable when you say the match-up is relatively even.

Also a method I'm going to consider to look at this from is a 2/3 matches model:

Link vs Character on Neutral
Link vs Character on CP (Anti-Link)
Link vs Character on CP (Pro-Link)

I'll add stage compatibility and things like that after the stage discussion thread is completed.
 

4Serial

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I have one more thing to say about Snake, and probably the rest of the characters in the game. Never EVER think that you are in the lead. Even if you are at 20% and Snake is at 120%. Snake f-tilt is fast and almost unpunishable (lucky you have Link's grab range). It's very easy to spam, and Brawl's broken shield game only adds on to it. It's a tilt that does over 20%. It racks up damage like nothing. Even if you are in the lead, keep up your game and don't fool around (unless it's just a friendly you don't really care about). Link is also easily gimpable due to his recovery. The same goes for every character, especially ones that can chain grab you.

Falco:
Z-air is useful in this match up, even if Falco isn't very tall. It has as much range as his Shine, but it's less punishable. If you think Falco will reflect your projectiles with his shine, just z-air him, or bombsmash him in the face.
Juggling Falco isn't very hard. It's the same as Snake. He can't do much in the air while coming down towards except d-air, airdodge, and maybe n-air or b-air if he's in the right position. U-smash will beat all of them. It's easy racking percent on Falco that way.
N-air and Z-air edgeguards work well if he's in the position to use his up+b, but good Falcos will rarely have to do that since they know how to DI. The best thing you can do against it is somehow force them to recover onto the stage and predict where it will end so you can punish with a grab or d-air or something.
Jab cancels work as well as it does on Snake IMO. Get him up in the air where he can't grab you, or laser camp and juggle his stock away. Bombs are the most usefule projectile in this match up because if bombsmashing and z-air bombing to get through obvious shines, and they stop him from laser camping more effectively than other projectiles. They also can get you out of his chaingrabs. Falco's chaingrab works on Link up until about 36% in my experience. You can jump out of it from there.
His shield game isn't as amazing as Snake, but he does have some things you should watch out for. Most things he can do out of shield are jab out of shield, shieldgrab, any smash attack, and I guess they can shine out of shield for spacing. All of these won't be much of a problem if you space yourself. Space your self at mid range. Just enough to get you out of the shine's range, but not far enough so that you will get laser camped.
Falco's DAC isn't as amazing as Link or Snake's but it's decent. Falco's like to DAC out of a d-throw at higher percents to finish off heavier characters. Just DI away, airdodge and shield > grab him or something. Falco's u-smash is a lot better in Brawl and it kills most characters at around 110%. Be careful of it when he's shielding.
His d-smash is something for Link to worry about as well since the trajectory of it goes very horizontal which is very bad news for Link's recovery. The Z-air recovery which is mentioned in Izaw's video helps you against this and it is something very useful to learn. It's risky though. I would just DI up and towards the stage at lower and mid percents, and try the z-air recovery if I don't have any other choice at extremely high percents.
Finishing moves are the usual.
 

Finns7

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Falco falls fast so utilts and upsmash work well....its late Ill add more later.
 
D

Deleted member

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1:9 in falco's favor

this is the most unfair match up link has, i'm seriously thinking MK is easier to fight
i got fcking 3 stocked by a falco because i missed the meteor cancel on the dair twice

zair: useless
if you get close enough to zair him he'll just shine you or do a retreating laser

jab lock: hard to use
you'll never get close enough to this f*gget and even if you do he's just going to shine you.

kill moves are normal
building up damage is easy when you can actually approach the b*stard
if you don't power shield everything you're boned

the only way i even beat falco was on RC, but that was because i stage gayed them 3 times lol...
 

Izaw

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Imma share a huge, wierd, awesome and very obvious strategi vs a Falco. Still I never see anyone do it. When playing on a stage like Battlefield where there is platforms, always start of by standing on one of those and here is the trick. Pick out BOMBS and DMG yourself to 40%.

Why?

Because Falcos main starting strategi is chaingrabbing Link, hoping to Dair-kill you or get you combo'ed to 60-70%. And this destroys Falcos strategi since a Falco can only chaingrab to 40%. Atleast on Link.

So yea.. hope that's a little, little strategi that will help you stay away from Chaingrab to Dair kills.
 

Ray_Kalm

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Imma share a huge, wierd, awesome and very obvious strategi vs a Falco. Still I never see anyone do it. When playing on a stage like Battlefield where there is platforms, always start of by standing on one of those and here is the trick. Pick out BOMBS and DMG yourself to 40%.

Why?

Because Falcos main starting strategi is chaingrabbing Link, hoping to Dair-kill you or get you combo'ed to 60-70%. And this destroys Falcos strategi since a Falco can only chaingrab to 40%. Atleast on Link.

So yea.. hope that's a little, little strategi that will help you stay away from Chaingrab to Dair kills.

That was quite old news, well at least to me.
 

4Serial

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lol I've tried doing that before, but then Falco will just either attack you or laser camp you. Either way, it's slow and you get hit. The best way to escape his chaingrab is stay on the platform and throw bombs down at him. Add some damage to him, and if he can hit you, you'll probably be too high on percent to get chaingrabbed when you decide to come down.
 

Bouse

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The Falco discussion will be closed at approximately 10pm EST tomorrow night, unless there are significant arguments.
Expect a new discussion topic to appear shortly thereafter.
 

Finns7

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You can get beat by a falco easily if your not 100% aware. The most critical part of this battle to me is the begining. There main strategy is the chaingrab. If you dont get daired they prob try to do a dash upsmashed (boost) this can get your damage to like 50% but if you di the dash attack it wont be that bad. Falco falls fast and so the utilt work well at low %. I dont really lose alot and I think this is because of my defense game. Learn to DI correctly and sidestep dodge, watch what moves you dish out because falcos dodge is fast and he can punish you so think before you attack. Have a bomb in hand most of the time.
 

Anonano

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Frankly, I like Falco. He's my secondary (Link's my first though :) ). And I have a friend who likes to use Link all the time, so I understand a little of a Falco player's mentality.
Clearly, the Chaingrab to DAir is one of the best combos. You can play some mindgames with a Falco player by jumping later than you normally would to dodge the dair, you can immediately tether, etc, but there is no one way that will get a Link player risk-free back on to the stage, cause Falco can simply drop off the stage and spike, he can short hop and wait longer to spike, etc. So mix it up a little. Tethering really does help.
In a projectile matchup, avoid using arrows unless it's for an arrow lock. Really, I can't tell you the amount of times when my friend has started charging an arrow and I just sit there spamming the shine until he realizes its a losing battle. Don't use boomerang to aid recovery, it really doesn't help at all and often gets in your way, making you an easy kill (aka Falco doesn't have to do anything). Bombs are really stupid unless you're above or below Falco.

Speaking of getting above or below Falco, use stages such as Battlefield that are small and have platforms that will allow you to stay vertically oriented to Falco. Use Utilt, nair, the sliding-Upsmash technique (only when below Falco), and dair to approach and rack damage on Falco. Nair is a particularly effective approach when using platforms, as it is a sex kick that doesn't have specific timing for hits (which Falco can easily beat). It also has no lag at start or end, allowing you to get it into Falco's face quickly and end with quick land attacks such as the standard AAA combo (Jab cancel is stupid because of Falco's shine). Another blessing from nair is the fact that you can repeatedly jump into Falco, dodging his shine and most aerial techniques he would otherwise use to retaliate. Although Utilt is a good technique for keeping/getting Falco vertical, you'll often get hit by Falco's dair and take damage yourself. Zair is a burden against Falco, because he'll shine/blaster you until you approach.
Let me tell you that you'll need those platforms to avoid amazing damage vs. his blaster.

In reality, staying in a vertical position to Falco is key. He can blast'er you to oblivion, shine your non-vert approaches, and shine any and all projectiles used against him. His aerial attacks can quickly break through most of your own, and recovery options are virtually non-existent. Stay in his face and use only techniques that you can get out fast. You'll need to change your entire strategy to beat Falco, but it is possible.

Really though, I'd give this match 9-1 to Falco.
 

NintenJoe

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as everyone else said, the chaingrab starts out the game. Starting out the game as defensively as possible is your best chance. Wait for the Falco to make a mistake, and spam bombs. That's the only projectile Falco can't hurl right back at you... An occasional DAC will throw Falco off balance, especially if you're playing defensively. Zair works, but not too well. Edgeguarding Falco is moderately easy, especially when he needs to recover vertically. Zair edgeguard works well.

Ummm... laser can easily be blocked out with sheild, but all of your projectiles will be blocked too. Arrows are pretty much out unless you enjoy shooting yourself in the face. Gale Boomerang works, unless you're afraid of Falco reflecting it and blowing you backwards. Bombs usually fail, and should be used to stall Falco until you think of something better.

Keeping a bomb in hand constantly works well. If you're being chaingrabbed, it will explode. If you throw it, it will either be nullified or hit Falco. Zair with a Bomb works beautifully, if you miss Zair, follow up with a bomb.

Staying away from Falco is your best bet. Still, your at a disadvantage. It's an uphill battle, but not an impossible one.
 

Swordplay

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Seriously this is Links Worst matchup....I will say it....its worse than metaknight.... its gotta be 8:2 if not worse. It is one of the only matchups I go to my counterpick characters.

I agree with Izaw. Bomb yourself. Frequently for kicks I just pull out a bomb and run towards falco. 1 of 3 situations happen. The bomb explodes and we both take damage. OR a chain grab begins and the bomb explodes. Or in rare case I will just get ***** because this is the perfect matchup to demonstrate how unbalanced brawl is. Nor do I care to play Links most lopsided matchup.

Okay now for some seriousness. You need to approach because falco ***** you at a distance.
Link has no chance against SHDL

Falco also outspaces Link. Zair is useless because you can't approach with it due to reflectors or retreat with it due to lasers.

You'll also never get close enough to jab cancel. Falco will run away and laser spam again.....Why Sakuri Why!!!!!!!!

Shieldgrabbing his shine will work well. Shieldgrabbing will also work well against 1000 spinning slashes....after you DI out of course.

Your only chance is to utilize the fact that Falco's recovery Blows major balls. It is easy to predict where he will Falco Phantasm too unless he cancels it because it has a set distance. Find that distance and punish.

Fire Bird goes a short distance and has a longer load time. Use it to get on the edge and z-air edgegaurd if coming from below. You'll have trouble killing unless you combo into a killing move as falco out spaces you so you must gimp. Phantasm spikes so watch out. Fortunately you do have moves to out prioritize it. I think Dair is one of them. Nair might also be 1 or it might trade hits....not sure on that 1. Firebird's (as well as Firefox) has taken a big neft in terms of priority as well so take advantage.

The only thing you have is mindgames. so prepare to whip out some mindgame AT's like ZAC and Bombsmashing.

Platforms help link in this matchup. at least you can maneuver a little. What I am trying to say don't play Falco on FD. It is stupid. Laser Fest.

If you must go Link choose Norfair with Golden sun music.....Deva will explain why.
 

Twilght Link

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Feb 28, 2008
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2:8 Falco's favor

Simply to start the match, i like to SH->pull out a bomb so i dodge his initial laser spam. His shine is simply URGH to links and combined with his lasee spam, he is one of Link's worst matchups. I've found that using utilt->utilt->upsmash when falco is at lower percents helps rack up 30+% though and u can gimped falco via an arrow, edgehogging his B> ,and zair edgehogging. Regardless, u will have to pray for ur success.
 

Bouse

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The write-up will be done tomorrow morning at the latest... I just started a new job and I had 6 hours of training... an hour break, and now I have another 3 hours of training o_O

Tired Bouse is tired...
 

4Serial

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I think that DK players say that this is one of his worst match ups. He's a big target for all of your projectiles, easy to jab cancel combo. He's easy to juggle as long as you aren't behind him, in which case, expect a b-air to the face. Juggling him is a good way to rack up percent, and so is using projectiles, since he can't do anything against it anyways. He's obviously easy to z-air. The most dangerous thing when facing DK is his grab. His grab game is great. He can combo with it, kill with it, and gimp with it. Tech the grab stage spike. Don't get grabbed and space your self. Edgeguarding DK shouldn't be too complicated. I wouldn't jump out and n-air or b-air him. D-airing will work if you want to kill him. Toss bombs and arrows at him if he's far. Galeguard if he's trying to sweetspot. DK can edgeguard you to death with that b-air of his... DI. DK's shield game is good. His d-smash out of shield is amazing and it's faster than you expect. D-smash comes out at frame 6 if I remember correctly. Space yourself and you won't get hit by it. Just z-air his shield if it comes up.

DK has amazing range in a lot of his moves. F-tilt is fast, has a lot of range and gets most people away. Same with his d-tilt. His u-tilt is kind of like Link's. It goes from in front to above to behind him quickly, and it juggles heavy people quite nicely. I think it's a bit slower than Link's is though. DK uses all of his tilts to stop approaches, but Link can pretty much beat all of them with his z-air. If the DK is b-air camping, just run back and spam projectiles lol

The DK punch doesn't have as much range as it did in Melee, but it is a bit quicker. The side+b only helps it, and even if you shield it, it takes a chunk of your shield away. Some of Link's attacks are quite punishable as well. Don't DAC at higher percents unless YOU KNOW IT'LL HIT HIM! Don't be predictable with non auto canceled d-airs or u-airs.
 

Twilght Link

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Messages
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Gimping dk with projectiles is pretty easy , he has a recovery that is great horizontally but fails vertically. If he's sent at a downward angle, he's pretty much dead.
 
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