Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Ryusuta]

Wait... Charizard wasn't in season 1...

 

[Bomber7]

I'm gona copy and paste that to the OP, nice job Orion

10thumbsup

 

[Ryusuta]

Thanks, man! I'll keep it updated and let you know when I make new versions.

 

[Bomber7]

Starter Siscussion: BOWSER GO!

I updated the OP drastically. Now that I got the basic framework in it, I'm going to start filling inthe characters. Though I will also start the character discussion. And I will have the page nuber too. just to keep record.

this post will be the starting point of our debate and hopefully we can make your chart more accurate incase it isnt, so far it looks good but it never hurts to make sure.

so ok guys, lets bring this one in. Do you think the best character to start up with is all three for ?

 

[Ryusuta]

Bowser is actually an easy one to choose for. All three pokemon do well against him in the early going. Charizard can space Bowser like crazy (beware of counter-fire breaths and side-b infinite jumps, however) while both Ivysaur and Squirtle can rack up as much as 70% damage in one go on him (Squirtle with his up tilt lock, Ivysaur with Bullet Seed combos). The face of the match can change as the battle wages on, but there's really no wrong choices for this fight.

 

[Bomber7]

I think the only thing Squirtle has to watch for is that lucky shot at like 70% and getting killed. Ivy is hurst badly by fire, and Death claw is just a pain to deal with. Though in actual game play, those are just minor. Bowser, from what I've seen is pretty inflexible and is eaily conquored.

 

[Ryusuta]

True. And bear in mind that starter choice doesn't reflect overall match-up ratios. A pokemon can be great in the early going, but suffer later on in many matches (particularly Squirtle).

 

[Bomber7]

true. true. It basically boils down to what you will do with the pokemon even if they never end up killing (like squirtle for most but rarely for me cuz my squirtle kills >.>)

after all this is what is recommended and even if its not for kill if worst coems to worst we can recoment the best pokemon to start with for racking damage up and then recomend a switch.

 

[choknater]

I kinda have the notion in my head that any of the optiosn woudl be excellent against Bowser...

I'd have a feelign I'd probably start with Ivy since he's very defensive and a strong lead could make the power vs power matchup with charizard greatly in your favor. Then send out squirtle and unleash the ****

 

[Bomber7]

first off. I dont know how you have 5k posts and am still a smash n00b

second.... I dont know. its hard to say cuz we all here have our expertise in a certain pokemon like for me it is squirtle and even though I dont face too many bowsers, it really doesnt matter because heavyweight or not Squirtle kicks some tail for me and usually kills. Ivy does sound like a better idea than Squirtle because of razor leaf and such however, Squirtle has speed and a good grab and good aerials which could get bowser off the stage in no time and I think water gun might be usefull on a recovering Bowser.

 

[Steeler]

don't let bowser grab squirtle, whatever you do

 

[Miles.]

you should always start as Zard vs peach.

fail guide more.

 

[Ryusuta]

How do you figure? Squirtle is much better equipped to deal with turnip and down air spam.

 

[Vermy]

Bullsh*t seed. And lots of it.
Space with ivy and zard and squirtle won't even need to be brought out.

Do NOT underestimate Boozer. He is much better than his melee counterpart, and his tilts are crazy good. Utilt is fast and will kill at 90%, so keeping away from being above him will help a lot. Uair will help you get your kill on, as Dair and DownB are slow and have massive lag so you can capitalise on that. You can juggle him relitively easy if you follow up bullsh*tseed with a tech chased uptilt. His giant size also makes him easy to snipe, so abuse that whip!

With zard, bait him with dtilt and ftilt him as he approaches, shrock>grab is too good. If you can, get him with flamethrower, but be careful. Upthrow will help, since as previously mentioned Bowser doesn't have good options when put above someone.

In the event that squirtle comes out, play the regular in and out with aerials and try utilt>uair. DON'T use withdraw to recover whatever you do. He will fair you and you will not come back. Also watch out for dsmash and utilt. They love to kill at ridiculous %.

Bowser fire > Zards fire.
Srsly, its huge.

 

[T-block]

This is a topic for choosing a starter guys, not just general match-ups.

I think Ivysaur is the best choice to start against Bowser. Punishing with Bullet Seed forces Bowser to be incredibly careful, and as long as you're wary of his tilts you can outspace him decently. Also, he seems to have a bit more trouble getting an early gimp than some other characters do.

 

[Ryusuta]

I think we're pretty clear on that so far. In my opinion (obviously, considering it's what I put on the chart), a serious case could be made for all three pokemon to start this match. Whereas Ivysaur does indeed have BS combos (an appropriate name ), Squirte has his aerial mobility, pokes, and especially the up tilt lock, and Charizard has a fantastic zoning/spacing game and very powerful offensive potential.

 

[Kith]

Ivysaur for sure on this one. Bulletseed almost ensures an easy kill on Bowser, and some good percentage on his second stock. After that, switch out either Charizard or Squirtle (depending on who you're better with) and finish up with Ivysaur again.

 

[Ryusuta]

Here's a better approach to addressing this information...

Since everyone obviously has their favorite starter(s) in this and other matches, can anyone come up with a sound argument AGAINST starting either of the other two pokemon? Since there's clearly many reasons for it, this will help sort out the pros and cons of each member.

 

[Miles.]

I think the only thing Squirtle has to watch for is that lucky shot at like 70% and getting killed. Ivy is hurst badly by fire, and Death claw is just a pain to deal with. Though in actual game play, those are just minor. Bowser, from what I've seen is pretty inflexible and is eaily conquored.

actually ivy doesnt give a **** about fire.

it has MORE knockback and that makes it EASIER to DI out of = LESS DAMAGE.

 

[Bomber7]

This is a topic for choosing a starter guys, not just general match-ups.

I think Ivysaur is the best choice to start against Bowser. Punishing with Bullet Seed forces Bowser to be incredibly careful, and as long as you're wary of his tilts you can outspace him decently. Also, he seems to have a bit more trouble getting an early gimp than some other characters do.

yeah it really is. However since you guys feel so strong on who is best for who ever you favor or start as, it really does seem that Bowser can be owned by any of the 3 pokemon, with a few minor things to look out for but overall shouldnt affect the stock against him.

actually ivy doesnt give a **** about fire.

it has MORE knockback and that makes it EASIER to DI out of = LESS DAMAGE.

didnt know that. That would make perfect since.

Note to everyone: I'll just jkeep this discussion on until friday or until we finally settle something. This really isnt a general character discussion, so just keep in mind of the abilities of the other 2 pokemon. for now all 3 looks pretty accurate. for future notice if anything new causes the change of the chart, I'll alert Orion.

 

[Ryusuta]

I'll probably be keeping an eye out for it myself, but I definitely appreciate the heads-up. Feel free to mention anything you'd like about it to me, and we'll keep this updated. I'm going to try to update the specific link whenever I update the chart, so that way you don't have to change the OP every time to accommodate that.

Also, just one minor thing about the topic title - there are two o's in "choosing." Not a big deal, of course, just thought I'd point it out.

 

[Bomber7]

I'll probably be keeping an eye out for it myself, but I definitely appreciate the heads-up. Feel free to mention anything you'd like about it to me, and we'll keep this updated. I'm going to try to update the specific link whenever I update the chart, so that way you don't have to change the OP every time to accommodate that.

Also, just one minor thing about the topic title - there are two o's in "choosing." Not a big deal, of course, just thought I'd point it out.

oops. lol there goes my typing abilities. ehh I've done worse. lol beserk mose. gona change that

 

[Ryusuta]

No biggie. It's an honest mistake. It's not like I've never made any typos.

 

[Bomber7]

o my worst is typing you as oyu. lol.

 

[Ryusuta]

wat noity iznt;

(Posting a coherent sentence here, so this won't qualify as spam.)

 

[Bomber7]

well so far it seems that we will keep all the pokemon as an option for bowser. when friday comes I'll change it to Falcon? who I think is next? then we can work our way up from there and I'll come up with the best summary that I can.

 

[Toby.]

Why falcon instead of a character we actually have trouble with?

(is confused)

 

[Exia 00]

(IMO) Squirtle does better against Falco than the other Pokemon. Ivysaur and Charizard get CGed fairly easy which gives you 30% damage (I think). Squirtle can't be CGed. He can also, up-tilt and uair combo Falco, which deals a good 30ish% (could be higher). Water gun can kill his recovery and if he tries a phantasm (preferably higher) water gun will stop him. If he tries his upB for a low recovery, back air him under the stage XD

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

lol Falco, Its Falcon.

Squirtle can't be CG'ed? I thought he can't escape -.-.

Ivysaur can with Bullet seed though.

 

[Caasi11]

We DO have a fair bit of trouble against Falcon, believe it or not. We never had a proper discussion about the match-up because we were too busy being hypocritical tier-placement-decides-all jerks (remember Captain Crapcon, anyone?) We should take this opportunity to actually have a GOOD discussion. :/

 

[Ryusuta]

(IMO) Squirtle does better against Falco than the other Pokemon. Ivysaur and Charizard get CGed fairly easy which gives you 30% damage (I think). Squirtle can't be CGed. He can also, up-tilt and uair combo Falco, which deals a good 30ish% (could be higher). Water gun can kill his recovery and if he tries a phantasm (preferably higher) water gun will stop him. If he tries his upB for a low recovery, back air him under the stage XD

lol Falco, Its Falcon.

Squirtle can't be CG'ed? I thought he can't escape -.-.

Ivysaur can with Bullet seed though.

Unfortunately, you're both wrong. Ivy can't BS out of it unless Falco messes up his timing, and Squirtle can't escape either, making Falco perhaps the single worst match-up for Pokemon Trainer (even worse than Meta Knight).

We DO have a fair bit of trouble against Falcon, believe it or not. We never had a proper discussion about the match-up because we were too busy being hypocritical tier-placement-decides-all jerks (remember Captain Crapcon, anyone?) We should take this opportunity to actually have a GOOD discussion. :/

While I agree that Falcon isn't as unbelievably horrible as he's made out to be, PT doesn't have a hard time with him once you know how to fight more advanced ones. Contrary to initial assessments, I actually believe Squirtle to have an advantage rather than disadvantage over Falcon; or at least even. The other two are a straight advantage.

 

[Bomber7]

just remember this is STARTING OUT not actually the whole match up. I'm basically having this whole discussion to find out who is best to start with against a certain character keeping in mind of CERTAIN strategies. not like you have to keep the starter out the whole time or until they die. this is just STARTING. after all, like in chess from what I hear, the first move is always the most crucial, so you wana know who your pawn will be, who will set things up for a check and who will check mate. though in other cases you will just have a check mate. its varies after all we do have like 35 ppl. but we are still on bowser. Falcon will come friday

im heading off to bed I'll see what else has been said tommorow.

 

[Ryusuta]

Bed already? But it's only like 8:30 there, isn't it?

 

[Miles.]

Nidoking ***** Ivysaur.

 

[Hive]

wow that's a really kwl graph! :D just thought i'd say that lol. i think samus should clone herself twice so that we can use something like that too. ^^

 

[Adriel]

Definitely Ivysaur for starting off against Bowser; camp your life away and use Bullet Seed whenever possible. Then switch to Charizard for the KO.

 

[Ryusuta]

Don't count on being able to camp Bowser. Half of an expert Bowser's play style revolves around getting past much better camping abilities than Ivysaur's.

 

[Exia 00]

Nidoking ***** Ivysaur.

I'd have to agree with you on that ^_^

@orion: I never said Squirtle destroys Falco, it's possible that you missed my point What I was trying to bring up is that Squirtle can deal with Falco easier than the other Pokemon. The chart on the first page shows that every Pokemon is even.

Edit: Worse than MK might be a bit of a stretch lol

 

[Ryusuta]

@orion: I never said Squirtle destroys Falco, it's possible that you missed my point What I was trying to bring up is that Squirtle can deal with Falco easier than the other Pokemon. The chart on the first page shows that every Pokemon is even.

The part of your post I was correcting was that you said Squirtle can't be CGed. Unfortunately, all three Pokemon can be CGed to spike by Falco.

 

[Exia 00]

The part of your post I was correcting was that you said Squirtle can't be CGed. Unfortunately, all three Pokemon can be CGed to spike by Falco.

He can ? O.o

I've never been CGed as Squirtle yet lol. Maybe my opponent didn't know