Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

[JB IV]

Since it uses d-throw and b-throw does that mean that the timing is different on every character?
Was something done about the hitboxes of characters like Lucas and Ness after f-throw that made them harder to regrab?
+1 to situational infinites

 

[KayB]

I will say there are a LOT of desynchs and some pretty crazy ones, I can desynch while doing pretty much anything in PM and it feels great.

Some things to start people off:

Pivot desynch: Just pivot a move and you will desynch. This is most commonly used with iceblock, pivot and iceblock with popo and then have nana blizzard to keep the desynch going.

Reverse initial dash(RID): Dash the opposite direction you are facing and at the end of the dash you can desynch(again you will usually use an iceblock though blizzard can be super good out of this). This desynch is fairly hard but pretty insane as you can just run after your iceblock and can get some crazy surprises.

Squall desynch: You can desynch at the end of squall and have nana go straight into an iceblock/blizzard or grab.

Dash dance desynch(brawl): Instead of doing the long melee dash dances for spacing, just do a very quick small dashdance on on the 3rd control stick input nana will desynch, try it out with iceblock.

Aside from the obvious ones like spotdodge, roll, and belay desynchs, what others should I know?

 

[GeZ]

Could we move focused desync discussion to the desyncs and grabs thread? It looks like a ghost town now and I'd like to get that **** lively so I can start learning more about this stuff. Until it fills up I'll just copy over any info on desyncs/ grab tricks I find over here to over there.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1d7DHgsDOk&list=PL7BD937B6485B5117
Could anyone confirm or deny this still working? If it still works that'd be pretty sweet, but my tech skill isn't up to snuff with IC's yet so I can't check myself. Or does that constitute as wobbling?

 

[GeZ]

Here are some random matches recorded of my ics:

Vs DK: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX3hhY1_LkU
vs Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYnxUV85mwA

Yo Hylian, I'm pretty new to IC's so I was wondering how you do such casual Desyncs? From what I can pull off so far a lot of my desyncs just start with spot dodge and go from there, but I saw you doing a lot of the after part (all of the desync shenanigans) without the spot dodge. Are you just getting the desyncs started off of a dash dance or something similar? And do you manage to perform all those desyncs by keeping the initial desync going while keeping NaNa or PoPo from resyncing, or do you do sets or series of desyncs?

 

[Hylian]

Yo Hylian, I'm pretty new to IC's so I was wondering how you do such casual Desyncs? From what I can pull off so far a lot of my desyncs just start with spot dodge and go from there, but I saw you doing a lot of the after part (all of the desync shenanigans) without the spot dodge. Are you just getting the desyncs started off of a dash dance or something similar? And do you manage to perform all those desyncs by keeping the initial desync going while keeping NaNa or PoPo from resyncing, or do you do sets or series of desyncs?

I do all of the above. There are so many ways to desync now it's hard to explain them all and when they would be useful. If you see me desynced for long periods of times it's because I'm not letting nana resynch by using long lasting moves giving me enough time to tell her what to do, and sometimes I will just desync from dash dance, or pivot, or landing with nair, or squall...Really you just kind of have to view desyncing as a part of them. I don't think "ok I need to do this desync now" when I'm playing them, it just comes naturally based on the situation I'm in. The key to all of this: Practice. I've practiced desyncs so much in brawl that the melee ones just came naturally when I went to learn them awhile ago and it's just stuck with me. I would practice for hours a day in 2008-9 on my own trying to come up with new desyncs and such and practicing chaingrabs.

 

[GeZ]

I just found a really weird glitch. If when doing the Up Cstick Dair desync you hold Side B instead of just pressing and letting go she won't do Side B but instead teleport forward 4 character spaces. haven't figured out what to do with it yet but it's pretty neat. And since I've discovered it I dub it NaNa Port, though I'm open to name suggestions since mine is kind of lukewarm.​

Edit: Holy hell, if you hold Side B until NaNa teleports and then let go when she appears she'll side B from where she is back at the opponent though it can be tough to do consistently. This is awesome. It even works if you don't hit the opponent. I'm going to try and get a recording of this on my ****ty phone and get it put up soon. So far I've only found a little application since NaNa seems to want to run back to PoPo after about a second of standing further ahead, but it works as a desync for PoPo.

 

[Nguz95]

Lolwut? That's awesome.

 

[GeZ]

From experimenting a bit I've found that your options after Nana teleports are a bit strange. I've got her to grab but when she does she always steps towards Popo, then turns around and does a running grab away. It's got pretty good reach but happens a bit slowly. I've also figured out that you can grab with Popo, and if you've held B down since the initial Nana Port, she'll spin back towards the opponent while Popo holds them. Other than that I haven't found much application, but this could be due to my relative inexperience with the character, so I'm missing obvious followups that are possible.

 

[GeZ]

I can't wait for all the IC mains to wake up tomorrow and realize that I played the part of santa's elf and invented teleporting for Christmas.

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD FIGHT!

 

[Nguz95]

Have you found a use for it? It looks like a legit move, but I can't figure out how it's helpful...

 

[GeZ]

Me either really ;~;

I'm hoping other IC mains can find something to do with it. So far all I've found is having Nana do an extended range grab, Nana spinning back from where she teleported to Popo, or some kind of interesting hopefully useful desync setup. So yeah... Hopefully someone finds something cool with it...

Edit: to help along people explore this tech and it's possibilities, I'll post all I know about it so that it's easier to play or experiment with.

It can only trigger on Popo's Dair, as any other normal or special will have side B come out like normal. Sometimes when it's performed wrong, Nana will blink out of the picture for a second, but be back exactly where she was instead of forward. And it seems to give the IC's some sort of longer range on their syncronization as after they've separated, you can dash in the opposite direction of Nana, and then Dash Dance and Nana will mimic the dash dance from that far distance when she would normally just return to Popo. To make Nana spin back to where you are, you actually have to continue holding Side B, as any input will have her run back to you without doing the spin. It can set up for some interesting desyncs as it puts the IC's in a desynced position that's otherwise difficult to attain, with you controlling desynced Popo while Nana travels back to him from far in front of him.​

I'll keep looking for applications for it, and I hope you guys do the same. If you have any questions I'll be happy to answer.​

Double Edit: I just got a really weird visual glitch to happen that I desperately want to recreate. Basically When Nana teleported I had Popo dash in the opposite direction, and it caused Nana to Blink short distances closer and closer to Popo. Really weird, but neat.

Triple Edit: Okay, OKAY, I think I found an application! If you can time it well, you C stick smash right as nana teleports, and she will fly forward out of the teleport doing a smash. I've only got it to happen once but it was insane. She slides a bit further than WD distance while performing the smash.
God damnit, this is really difficult. I don't know how I caused it the first time. I'm recording all of my lab time now so when these weird techs occur I can record them. Here's my almost recreation. I got her to slide, but not smash.

I should probably give up the ghost on this one. As neat as it is, it's horrendously difficult, as I've only had it occur successfully once, and gotten the flub slide twice in about a half hour of trying. I might investigate further later, but for now I'm tapped out.

Literally five second later edit: I did it again! It is inputting Dsmash on the Cstick right as Nana teleports! I don't know how consistently it's possible but I'll try to get a recording of this damn thing!

Final Edit: Success! I'm guessing it's a one frame deal, but I've done it a couple times, and it's great! The tech is now useful! I don't have any editing software so I'll just point to it being performed near the end around 3:35 and without further ado give you, The Nana Torpedo! After more testing, it's actually not that hard to do consistently! I changed my control scheme a bit to do it easier, so I now have Right Trigger set to special as it lets me use my right thumb to flick the C stick down easier, but it's really plausible with standard controls as well.

 

[GeZ]

And now that I've put in all this work and tried so damn hard to figure this out, please don't remove it, Hylian. It would break my little heart!

 

[KayB]

What is the up-c stick dair desynch and is it the same one Hylian was talking about?

 

[GeZ]

When in shield you press Up on the Cstick and Nana will Usmash while popo jumps, or short hops if you just flick the C stick. Then you Dair with Popo. Do you mean the thing Hylian said he was looking into?

 

[DrinkingFood]

"Hylian! I worked so hard to perfect a glitch so just for me could you please sacrfice good game design?"
sorry i don't see that happening
PMBR happily removes all glitches and exploits save for like... Samus's SWD, which i guess was brought back because melee
this doesn't get a because melee pass, it's probably a result of a faulty mechanic that will be exploited to an extreme once the ways to replicate it are fully pinned down and the ways to abuse it are fully pinned down

 

[GeZ]

I was partially kidding, as I ended that with, it would break my little heart. Also I've tested the application pretty extensively now, and it only occurs in very niche situations and has very slight application. I can understand them taking it out if it's just what they're feeling, but a lot of the AT could be considered "exploits". Again, if they remove it, that's on them, but I think the application is so slight, it wouldn't drastically affect much of anything.

I'm also surprised that you jumped straight to objecting to it. Isn't it just a little neat? The Nana Torpedo is pretty hard to pull off but it's good without being incredible. And if it is impossible to remove and remains intact for that reason solely, would you still not like it? I ask this actually out of curiosity, because I think it falls into the realm of P:M created glitch or exploit, and could exist happily yet relatively uneventfully like the teleport that Jiggs could perform in Smash 64.

 

[Hylian]

It is a little neat but we don't want our game having it's characters teleport around unintentionally, way too buggy/janky. Will try to remove if possible but again, we might not figure it out for awhile.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I was partially kidding, as I ended that with, it would break my little heart. Also I've tested the application pretty extensively now, and it only occurs in very niche situations and has very slight application. I can understand them taking it out if it's just what they're feeling, but a lot of the AT could be considered "exploits". Again, if they remove it, that's on them, but I think the application is so slight, it wouldn't drastically affect much of anything.

I'm also surprised that you jumped straight to objecting to it. Isn't it just a little neat? The Nana Torpedo is pretty hard to pull off but it's good without being incredible. And if it is impossible to remove and remains intact for that reason solely, would you still not like it? I ask this actually out of curiosity, because I think it falls into the realm of P:M created glitch or exploit, and could exist happily yet relatively uneventfully like the teleport that Jiggs could perform in Smash 64.

I know you put a lot of time into it, but you can't know even after a week of testing, much less a day, that whatever mechanic this glitch is a result of won't have much more room for potent abuse. Smash glitches and exploits generally take a long time to come to full realization. Beside that, the real reason i don't care to see it remain is that it's just unprofessional/sloppy game design. If it stays because it can't be removed, then it's just an unintentional glitch that has no bearing on intended design, so I don't really care. If it stays but could be removed, then my statement prior stands.

Don't get me wrong, jank stuff can be fun, especially when you can surprise people with it, and it's also fun in a different way to feel like you're breaking the game, pushing it to its mechanical limits. But you're looking through biased goggles being the one who figured it out. Much like I do with ROB's RoboDashDashes, except those are kinda still in as a worse version of themselves.

 

[GeZ]

I understand both posts and agree. I was looking through jaded lenses, and you guys are right on it from a game design and smash based standpoint. I'll stop working at it I guess. Still glad I managed to bring it to light so it could be removed sooner rather than later.

 

[KayB]

I understand both posts and agree. I was looking through jaded lenses, and you guys are right on it from a game design and smash based standpoint. I'll stop working at it I guess. Still glad I managed to bring it to light so it could be removed sooner rather than later.

Don't feel bad. It was a cool glitch and you worked hard to apply it. You didn't try to push the developers too far into not removing it and didn't cause a fuss. That deserves some level of respect right there.

 

[GeZ]

Thanks man.

I was wondering what makes the SHFFL Nair desync work? Is it that Nana doesn't L cancel or something else? I feel like I'd have an easier time doing it if I knew what I was trying to do.

 

[cmart]

Iirc it's because Nana's l-canceled langlag is unavoidably different than Popo's. I believe you can do it from any l-canceled aerial and nair is just the easiest for whatever reason. When we discovered it in testing, we decided to keep it as another desynch option.

 

[GeZ]

Neat. Thanks cmart.

 

[internetmovieguy]

Is there any good way to command nana to grab the ledge while i charge up a forward smash?
some times she grabs the ledge and stays if an opponent is recovering but i want to make it consistent.

 

[Hylian]

How you guys liking those release point fixes in 3.01? Time for me to bust out the IC's in tournament .

 

[CORY]

Is there any good way to command nana to grab the ledge while i charge up a forward smash?
some times she grabs the ledge and stays if an opponent is recovering but i want to make it consistent.

not quite the same, but what i did in melee was dodge desynch, make nana charge fsmash, then i would backwards wd to the ledgehog, which would make nana release fsmash.

i would assume the same would work the other way around (make nana backwards wd to ledgehog) but if i had to guess, i'd say it's not consistent because nana on the ledge by herself hits the routine (or whatever it is) to make her get back up and run to your loving arms again.

 

[Kef]

How you guys liking those release point fixes in 3.01? Time for me to bust out the IC's in tournament .

It's great. Hand--offs are a lot easier to do. It still has some slight timing variations between characters, but nothing that you can't adapt to. I just started practicing today, but consistency is starting to show. I haven't been able to regrab from Nana's F-Throw consistently though, I am guessing you guys intented it to be this way. You can do things like these (tested on Wolf/Fox/DK):

(back facing edge) Popo D-Throw > Nana Back Throw > Immediate turnaround Popo Grab > D-Throw > Nana F-Grab > Popo F-air/F-Smash

BTW, Nana sometimes decides to hold the target on place after a hand-off. You can hen choose which throws she does/pummel or whatever you want. I have no idea how to trigger this, but it seems to only happen while you are on the same stage positions where Nana starts throwing forward.

 

[Rick Rockmann]

So is there any reason to NOT dthrow?

 

[Nguz95]

Uthrow is the move on spacies.

 

[the_irish_dude]

i will say that i dislike that nana uthrows immediately. (unless near the edge ofcourse) they did fix the dthrow bug and what not but it is still insanely precise on getting that handoff, just for her to throw the opp away immediately. knowing that from an opp standpoint allows them to plan their next move. what i find i like the most in smash (all games) is the unpredictability. opp know if nana gets her hands on them they will be thrown up immediately. why is nana synced to you regardless of where she is (jumping off the stage just to die in order to "save" you) but when she gets her hands on an opp, you lose all sync with her. idk i just feel there should be a time frame for how long you can do something with them synced for grabs still.

 

[Time2Play]

BTW, Nana sometimes decides to hold the target on place after a hand-off. You can hen choose which throws she does/pummel or whatever you want. I have no idea how to trigger this, but it seems to only happen while you are on the same stage positions where Nana starts throwing forward.

This happened to me a lot and I think i know what causes it.
If you do a hand-off and you press A really fast after the grab then you'll pummel with nana and she won't throw. At least I saw her pummeling which bugged her auto throw. And this happened if I triggered A too often when I tried to get the timing down. Guess its a bug, maybe you can control her throw after that for multiple handoff, not sure. Didn't rlly play her anymore after I failed to do the Infinite for more than 2 Rounds T_T

Side note: If I remember correctly, than it just happened when I tried to do the Infinite, so I was close to the ledge, facing away from it with Popo and used a dthrow.

 

[MC_The]

So this update threw my grab game off because now I can no longer to the f throw handoff, but luckily the d throw is easy as hell now. Is a f throw regrab possible, because I've tried many different timings and have yet to get it once.

 

[Iceman]

When doing downthrow handoffs is there a visual or audio cue that should catch my attention? I need help with the timing

 

[MC_The]

When doing downthrow handoffs is there a visual or audio cue that should catch my attention? I need help with the timing

The timing is different for every character, but what I find is that I grab, wait a second for nana's grab to end, d throw with popo and then as soon as my opponent hits the ground have nana grab.

 

[kingsharkboi]

So this update threw my grab game off because now I can no longer to the f throw handoff, but luckily the d throw is easy as hell now. Is a f throw regrab possible, because I've tried many different timings and have yet to get it once.

Yes it is possible. Try it on a different character if you are having problems. I often think Fthrow is easier in some matchups. As always you'll need to have Nana walk in front to a some degree.

BTW, Nana sometimes decides to hold the target on place after a hand-off. You can hen choose which throws she does/pummel or whatever you want. I have no idea how to trigger this, but it seems to only happen while you are on the same stage positions where Nana starts throwing forward.

This happens to me too occasionally. I'm guessing its remnants of Brawl's handoff coding sneaking its way in here, or whatever. I'm not complaining since it lets me do a free charge smash with Popo haha but hopefully its not entirely random and is triggered by something specific.

i will say that i dislike that nana uthrows immediately. (unless near the edge ofcourse) they did fix the dthrow bug and what not but it is still insanely precise on getting that handoff, just for her to throw the opp away immediately. knowing that from an opp standpoint allows them to plan their next move. what i find i like the most in smash (all games) is the unpredictability. opp know if nana gets her hands on them they will be thrown up immediately..

I like this change actually. I think the goal of this was to make these grab combos seem less random than in Melee. Now I know that if I land a handoff to Nana in the middle of the stage, she will up-throw and I can prepare with a double jump Popo Fair. Opponent's will learn to DI accordingly. In Melee, Nana's random 4-way throws (in the middle) kinda pissed me off, but at least it prevented full-stage, controlled handoff combos like seen in Brawl. In PM we get our awesome triple edge-handoffs like in Melee, while middle-stage handoffs lead to a (slighty less brutal) single up-throw into a possible Popo aerial finisher. Good compromise imo

 

[-Coco-]

I'm not sure if it's because of wifi or what but I can't seem to do anything against snake X_X

 

[Twan709]

I love the grab changes. I've always been kinda interested in ICs and handoffs being a little easier than 3.0 pretty much ensures I'm going to put some real work into them. I landed dthrow -> Nana spike at the ledge for the first time in friendlies yesterday and it was awesome. Dthrow - > nana Dair -> regrab is way easier too.

My biggest problem seems be the neutral game. I suppose it takes time and experience to incorporate all the desyncs and apply them at the appropriate times. Granted, I'd say neutral is my biggest problem with any character I play, so not sure if my problems are ICs specific.

 

[MC_The]

If you're having problems with your neutral game, go look at melee IC players. They have a lot of nice tricks, such as short hop out of shield bair. It's a pretty good defensive option that hits pretty hard. Also wavedashing down smashes and f-tilts are always a good option.

I actually haven't been able to do the Dthrow nana dair regrab though. It's possible that my opponents might be to floaty of character, but it's still annoying. Are there are damage racking chains that work on floaties?

 

[Kef]

I was gonna create a new thread for 3.0.1 stuff but, let's get this started anyways. If you guys think this should be discussed somewhere else, I will gladly create another thread.

So Nana randomly holding the opponent? I found that if you hold jump (I use "X") and forward as Nana is regrabbing, Nana will just hold the opponent and wait for you command. From here she can pummel or execute any grab you want. This only works in the corner, but allows for great setups for the infinite. I miss the setup in the video, but you can clearly see that Popo can instantly grab from Nana's downthrow.

The infinite is very similar if not identical to the infinite Cmart found. It is a lot easier to land on a lot of character now, and just a few give me constant problems to land it on. I recommend to input small walk forwards for Nana in-between the Down-Throw and her Back-Throw so she ends up further away from Popo. I've found the farther she is from Popo, the looser the link is (should still be a 2 framer or so). If you wish to switch sides like I did in the video, I would recommend to pummel or wait with Popo so Nana comes closer to you, because side-switching regrabs are more inconsistent as Nana is farther away from Popo.

Also showed some other minor stuff like the Nana edgehog that some of you guys were talking about here. I also showed that you can also hold the target midscreen with Nana if she initiates the grab. So after something like SpotDodge > buffer Nana grab > you hold "down" on the control stick and hold any shield button. I haven't been able to make her throw anywhere but up, so that stays as it is for now.

We should have a place where people post their setups/desync etc. These climbers are not gonna develop without tech, they are not that type of character. Share share share!

 

[KingDozie]

Kef i cant get the timing down for the down-throws to back-throws. Anyways i like what your doing so keep it up.