Compendium of all known Zelda buffs/nerfs/changes

[Novice_Brave]

Hi everyone! I know we here in the Zelda forums have been working really hard to scour footage for any changes she has received based on the E3 demo build of Smash 4 - but the major buffs/nerfs/changes are all sort of scattered around various threads and posts, so I thought I'd make a thread that houses every change we know of for quick and easy access when we want to recall a change she's received or weigh them all up against each other!

I will probably be missing things, so if you know of any (that we know with at least a good degree of certainty - "jab might be better" probably won't be added to the list of buffs, for example) that I'm missing - buffs or nerfs - then please don't hesitate to point them out so I can add them!

*BUFFS!*
+Farore's Wind teleport time is faster
+Farore's Wind reappearance "explosion" deals more damage and is now a strong KO move
+Farore's Wind initial "ribbon" attack sends opponents straight up, allowing you to follow up with the "explosion" hitbox if you also move straight up for many characters at various percents
+Farore's Wind auto-grabs ledges if it is passed by while invisible
+Gained a new down special in Phantom to make up for the loss of Transform
+Utilt is faster and can now combo
+Ftilt is faster
+Dtilt has less ending lag
+Dtilt has more horizontal reach
+Uair has less startup and ending lag
+Uair deals 1% more damage
+Nair has increased hitstun
+Dair now spikes harder when non-sweetspotted
+Dair's sweetspot has slightly longer horizontal range
+Dair sweetspot deals 3% more damage
+Dair sweetspot appears to be larger
+Dair is now faster
+Dair can sweetspot grounded characters
+Usmash has a "vacuum" effect
+Din's Fire sweetspot has increased knockback and damage
+Nayru's Love is faster and chains together better
+Dash attack is faster and has more KO power
+Dash attack has low enough base knockback that it can be used to set up potential combos
+System changes lead to a major decrease in the effectiveness of SDI, meaning multihit moves are more effective. This favors Zelda's Fsmash, Usmash, Nair, Nayru's Love, and jab.
+Nayru's Love has lowered ending lag
+Up Smash has improved damage
+Grab is faster
+Pummel is faster
+Back throw has increased knockback and kill potential
+Ftilt comes out at a less awkward angle
+Jab has increased knockback

*NERFS*
-Din's Fire has shorter reach, is slower, has a weaker sourspot, and has a less disjointed hitbox
-Dsmash has decreased range
-Utilt no longer kills and deals less damage
-Ftilt sends opponents forward instead of backwards, making it harder to combo out of
-Dthrow deals less damage (I believe it now only deals... 5%? I will check and update)
-Nayru's deals slightly less total damage (Around 12-13%)
-Dtilt no longer locks
-Up Smash has decreased vertical range


*UNKNOWN CHANGES*
?Fair strikes a somewhat different pose - whether this means the sweetspot has changed or not is unclear.
?Zelda has a new airdodge animation, she now strikes a single pose rather than "spinning" through the air. How this effects the effectiveness of her airdodge is unconfirmed.
?Zelda has a new spotdodge animation, again, not sure how it compares exactly.


I hope I got these right (please tell me if one of the buffs or nerfs is actually incorrect!) and I hope this is a useful thread for Zelda fans!

 

[ihskeyp]

Hi everyone! I know we here in the Zelda forums have been working really hard to scour footage for any changes she has received based on the E3 demo build of Smash 4 - but the major buffs/nerfs/changes are all sort of scattered around various threads and posts, so I thought I'd make a thread that houses every change we know of for quick and easy access when we want to recall a change she's received or weigh them all up against each other!

I will probably be missing things, so if you know of any (that we know with at least a good degree of certainty - "jab might be better" probably won't be added to the list of buffs, for example) that I'm missing - buffs or nerfs - then please don't hesitate to point them out so I can add them!

*BUFFS!*
+Farore's Wind teleport time is faster
+Farore's Wind reappearance "explosion" deals more damage and is now a strong KO move
+Gained a new down special in Phantom to make up for the loss of Transform
+Utilt is faster and can now combo
+Ftilt is faster
+Dtilt has less ending lag
+Uair has less startup and ending lag
+Nair has increased hitstun
+Dair now spikes harder when non-sweetspotted
+Usmash has a "vacuum" effect
+Din's Fire sweetspot has increased knockback and damage
+Nayru's Love is faster and chains together better
+Dash attack is faster and has more KO power
+System changes lead to a major decrease in the effectiveness of SDI, meaning multihit moves are more effective. This favors Zelda's Fsmash, Usmash, Nair, Nayru's Love, and jab.

*NERFS*
-Din's Fire has shorter reach, is slower, has a weaker sourspot, and has a less disjointed hitbox
-Dsmash has decreased range
-Utilt no longer kills and deals less damage
-Ftilt sends opponents forward instead of backwards, making it harder to combo out of

*UNKNOWN CHANGES*
?Fair and Bair strike a somewhat different pose - whether this means the sweetspot has changed or not is unclear.
?Zelda has a new airdodge animation, she now strikes a single pose rather than "spinning" through the air. How this effects the effectiveness of her airdodge is unconfirmed.

I hope I got these right (please tell me if one of the buffs or nerfs is actually incorrect!) and I hope this is a useful thread for Zelda fans!

Wow. It's really nice to see all of her buffs listed out. Very exciting, honestly.
And of her nerfs, none seem THAT game changing, except for dins fire, but it was already pretty bad, so that won't change much.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Wow. It's really nice to see all of her buffs listed out. Very exciting, honestly.
And of her nerfs, none seem THAT game changing, except for dins fire, but it was already pretty bad, so that won't change much.

Yeah, thankfully (I guess? xD) her nerfs targeted an already bad move so... not too much realistically changed. Still hope to see a better Din's in the final build, though!

P.S. It's probably better have each section under a spoiler tag so as the list potentially expands it doesn't become an unsightly long mess, right? I'm not sure how to create spoiler tags, so if someone could explain it would be much appreciated

 

[Anop]

Nice job bro.. one extra buff is that upB can be comboed to itself (i mean attacking with the teleport animation and later to its explosion like it is shown here at the minute 1:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2p-EyKKiAo).
One nerf that i heard is that her up air is weaker in terms of knockback, but im not so sure about it.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Nice job bro.. one extra buff is that upB can be comboed to itself (i mean attacking with the teleport animation and later to its explosion like it is shown here at the minute 1:13 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2p-EyKKiAo).
One nerf that i heard is that her up air is weaker in terms of knockback, but im not so sure about it.

Thank you
I actually just added that one! I'm not sure if it always works, or it's working simply because of a fault of the opponents not knowing how to escape it, but it definitely seems like a possible viable option so I'mma add it for now.

I've heard that too, and to be honest it does look like it to me, but I've also heard it's stronger in terms of knockback, so I'll refrain from either for now.

 

[Toadallstar2]

Nice list. Many things seem quite contradictive in terms of it being a buff or a nerf. Not your doing, but the move itself. Such as Dins sweetspot being powerful but otherwise quite mediocre. Nonetheless, overall she certainly received more buffs.
One nerf is that FW can still be stuck if used right next to a wall and won't work. I hope they change that because it's such a flawed pain that only enforces her awfulness.

 

[ihskeyp]

Nice list. Many things seem quite contradictive in terms of it being a buff or a nerf. Not your doing, but the move itself. Such as Dins sweetspot being powerful but otherwise quite mediocre. Nonetheless, overall she certainly received more buffs.
One nerf is that FW can still be stuck if used right next to a wall and won't work. I hope they change that because it's such a flawed pain that only enforces her awfulness.

Considering that FW got stuck like that in Brawl, it isn't a nerf in this game, because it didn't change in that aspect.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Nice list. Many things seem quite contradictive in terms of it being a buff or a nerf. Not your doing, but the move itself. Such as Dins sweetspot being powerful but otherwise quite mediocre. Nonetheless, overall she certainly received more buffs.
One nerf is that FW can still be stuck if used right next to a wall and won't work. I hope they change that because it's such a flawed pain that only enforces her awfulness.

Thanks

Yeah, her Din's Fire buff got bogged down by a bunch of din's nerfs >_>;;

That's unfortunate, but as ihskeyp said, that's actually not a nerf as it's just something bad that got carried over rather than a new problem. So hopefully, if that ends up not being a problem anymore, it will end up as a buff

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Dash looks like it can combo into itself at low percents too.

iirc it didn't in brawl (or at least beyond weird angles).

 

[Katty Shepherd]

In regards to Nayru's Love I've seen it do 13%, I don't have anyway to confirm this but the 12% to 13% ballpark seems a correct amount for maximum damage.

 

[Novice_Brave]

In regards to Nayru's Love I've seen it do 13%, I don't have anyway to confirm this but the 12% to 13% ballpark seems a correct amount for maximum damage.

Thanks!

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Thanks!

Yeah, I think you can take away the Nayru's Love damage nerf. So I guess we can use Nayru's as an actual reflector this time around or what?

 

[☆Jazz☆]

Very nice buffs. This makes me even more excited to play as Zelda.

 

[L9999]

Hey, Zelda may not suck after all like many people say.

 

[micstar615]

Thanks for posting all this great info @ Novice_Brave , I'm very hyped to play as my main again with all these new buffs, hope we get more

 

[Novice_Brave]

Yeah, I think you can take away the Nayru's Love damage nerf. So I guess we can use Nayru's as an actual reflector this time around or what?

Keepin' the dream alive. It does seem more usable for sure.

Very nice buffs. This makes me even more excited to play as Zelda.

Same here

Hey, Zelda may not suck after all like many people say.

She's got a lot of work she needs done, but she's definitely heading in the right direction so far. I truly believe she has the potential to rise up in this game, so hopefully time proves that right.

Thanks for posting all this great info @ Novice_Brave , I'm very hyped to play as my main again with all these new buffs, hope we get more

No problem! Hopefully more will come to light so I can keep on adding buffs. Honestly, I'm pretty certain her airdodge change is a buff for sure. She had a pretty bad one in Brawl. I just don't technically know, unfortunately.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Keepin' the dream alive. It does seem more usable for sure.



Same here



She's got a lot of work she needs done, but she's definitely heading in the right direction so far. I truly believe she has the potential to rise up in this game, so hopefully time proves that right.



No problem! Hopefully more will come to light so I can keep on adding buffs. Honestly, I'm pretty certain her airdodge change is a buff for sure. She had a pretty bad one in Brawl. I just don't technically know, unfortunately.

Given that we have a four (?) some month build and that Sakurai's team has been doing a lot of balancing, no doubt using the data for the matches and tournaments we can expect that Zelda will definitely look better in the final game. Here's hoping they do something magical with Din's because I don't have much hope in that regard.

 

[Downdraft]

I don't believe several of those buffs should be listed. The OP makes it seem like she's gotten more buffs than nerfs, which would lead one to believe that she'll be better than her Brawl incarnation. I highly doubt Zelda will significantly improve in the metagame just because a few moves were made faster or given extra damage.

Does she have a move that will force approaches?
Does she have a good means of approach?
How difficult are her sweet spots?
How many moves can she chain together that don't involve repeatedly using the same move?
She retains her terrible attributes: slow, tall, light, floaty. Are the substantial buffs enough to offset that?
I'll reserve my judgment until good players have had the opportunity to master her potential.

 

[ihskeyp]

I don't believe several of those buffs should be listed. The OP makes it seem like she's gotten more buffs than nerfs, which would lead one to believe that she'll be better than her Brawl incarnation. I highly doubt Zelda will significantly improve in the metagame just because a few moves were made faster or given extra damage.

Does she have a move that will force approaches?
Does she have a good means of approach?
How difficult are her sweet spots?
How many moves can she chain together that don't involve repeatedly using the same move?
She retains her terrible attributes: slow, tall, light, floaty. Are the substantial buffs enough to offset that?
I'll reserve my judgment until good players have had the opportunity to master her potential.

(But she has received more buffs than nerfs)
Maybe not all were necessary, but we shouldn't just ignore them.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I don't believe several of those buffs should be listed. The OP makes it seem like she's gotten more buffs than nerfs, which would lead one to believe that she'll be better than her Brawl incarnation. I highly doubt Zelda will significantly improve in the metagame just because a few moves were made faster or given extra damage.

Does she have a move that will force approaches?
Does she have a good means of approach?
How difficult are her sweet spots?
How many moves can she chain together that don't involve repeatedly using the same move?
She retains her terrible attributes: slow, tall, light, floaty. Are the substantial buffs enough to offset that?
I'll reserve my judgment until good players have had the opportunity to master her potential.

They may not be "significant" buffs, but they are buffs nonetheless. Every buff is, well, a buff - whether it's a move having one frame less ending lag, or Din's Fire suddenly dealing 300% damage and moving as fast as a blaster shot. I'm listing every buff that we have found, regardless of its significance to her metagame overall. Do I think that uair doing 1% more damage is going to shoot her up to the top 10? Obviously not. Is it still a buff? Yes.

She does have a terrible stat spread, that's completely true and won't be changing. However, her buffs may give her a push over the edge out of the territory of her terribad bottom five placement in Brawl. It's also worth noting that a character can be better than their past incarnation and still remain just as low or even lower, since it also has to be stacked relatively to what changes other veterans received and how the newcomers affect the game. She may be "better" than Brawl Zelda but still be dead last, or, hell, she could be "worse" than Brawl Zelda and end up placing higher if a bunch of other people just end up sucking even more for whatever reason.

I'm just trying to give people something to be excited about for Zelda in Smash 4, I'm not trying to claim any specific tier placement for her. I just find it more fun to enjoy seeing that she has been getting buffs and remaining optimistic and hyped for a character I enjoy playing.

 

[PrimalCarnage]

What Novice_Brave said. It's just a list, it isn't meant to tell us how Zelda will actually place in tier lists. That's too dependent on the other characters and how weak or OP in comparison to Zelda they are.

As for approach options, phantom has been largely unexplored. It's disappointing that we can't charge and save it, but it could function as an approach since it's fast and seems to allow Zelda quick recovery (while functioning as a shield).

As for chains, dash and u-tilt are stated as potential viable combo starters. nair will probably also open up options too with it's hitsun.

But yes, for anything concrete we wait.

 

[BJN39]

*Sigh*

It's like no one respects the work I put into this. I put out a huge thing like this MONTHS ago, (Around Late April) but not one sh*t was given about it... > _ >

Original thingy with some red note amendments.

Take note; The workings of damage seem unusual and inconsistent between hits, (Example: a hit-box doing 11% fresh one time, but 12% fresh the next.) and I've recorded two different percents for just about every attack. (The variation is only a 1% difference.) With that in mind, if you see two percents > 11\12% < connected like this, it means the varying percents.

EDIT: Some damages were recorded from the 3DS, which does NOT have this varying percent thing.

Note 2: Everything here is subject to being changed before the full release.

MOBILITIES:

* Her running appears to be a slight bit faster. Not a whole lot, though...

* Her second jump is now much larger! It used to only be about "one Zelda high" but now it's equal in height to her first jump. (which is around "one-and-1/2 Zeldas high")

* Many people have reported that she falls faster. IDK how I like this...

NORMALS:

Jab:
* The attack does 6% over 3 hits.
* It retains its Brawl IASA or very similar IASA.

66A - Dash Attack:
* Seems to do some combination of 12\13%, 9\10%, and 6%. (It's unknown if the damage differences happen with different timing or placement.) < This has now been figured out to be a sweetspot system where her hands are more powerful.
* The 90 degree angle seems to be done away with, and now the WHOLE attack does a 45 degree angle.
* It still has varying KB dependin on which damage you do. The strongest hit can KO at around 130%.

Ftilt:
* The move ONLY hits forward now; at an angle of around 45 degrees.
* Does some range of 10\11\12\13%
* It still has pretty decent knockback; KO'ing around 130%.
* It's unconfirmed, but Ftilt may hit VERY SLIGHTLY faster, and end VERY SLIGHTLY faster. Take with a large grain of salt.

Dtilt:
* Now does 4\5%, and ONLY hits at 80 degrees. (This was likely done to reduce the power of the Dtilt lock.)
* The move no longer trips.
* Retains very similar IASA to Brawl's, if not the same.

Utilt:
* It now does only 5%, and sends at 90 degrees in the front, and 80 degrees in the back.
* Its knockback has been HUGELY reduced.(Only half a screen of KB at 100%.) Now very combo friendly.
* The startup appears to be reduced, the swip goes faster, and the IASA happens earlier. Now very quick.

Fsmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Now does 17\18%.
* Retains very similar knockback to Brawl. Still ends with a 45-ish degree angle.

Dsmash:
* Front hit does 12\13%.
* Back hit does 10\11%.
* Retains very similar to Brawl knockback. Still hits at 20 and 160 degree angles.

Usmash:
* Occasionally, people "fall out" of the multi-hits, disappointingly...
* Does 15-17% and is now only 8 hits. (The order goes "3, 3, 3, 3, 1, 1, 1, 5." < As shown in a 3DS video. But it only does around 15-17% by reducing the 3s to 2s.)
* It appears to have some sort of IASA (Not confirmed) that makes it faster than it was in Brawl.

NAir:
* Her hands do 1% per hit, the center of the move does 2% per hit, and the final hit does 3%. Can do 11% in 5 hits.
* The final hit still sends at around 45 degrees.

FAir/BAir:
* The Sweetspot hit-lag is reduced from Brawl.
* Sweetspot does 20%, and hits at around 45 degrees. Still VERY powerful.
* Sourspot does 4%.
* The move has normal priority. (It could be seen cancelling a Samus homing missile.)
* Landing lag appears to be quicker. (Un-confirmed.)
DAir:
* Sweetspot does 16% and still hits straight down.
* The lower Sourspot does 4%, and the upper Sourspot does 5%.
* The sweetspot can connect with grounded opponents!
* It can auto-cancelled land in a short hop.

UAir:
* The hit-box appears to be larger and there appears to be two different ones: The main hit-box, and the edging.
* The main hit-box does 15% and hits upwards. The KB appears to be nearly the same.
* The edging is a weaker hit-box edging the main one. It does 10%. (This hit-box was ONLY seen once by me, and seems weird. I don't even surely know if this is a real hit-bx on the move...)


SPECIALS:
Neutral Special - "Nayru's Love":
* Does 11% in 4 hits. (In the order "2, 2, 2, 5".)
* The move appears to connect better than in Brawl.
* The final hit has increased knockback. (It nearly KO'ed ZSS at around 100%.)
* If you're behind Zelda, the final hit in the back now knocks the opposite way Zelda is facing, (Like Melee/P:M) instead of only forward her direction like in Brawl.
* The move can still be B reversed!

Side Special - "Din's Fire":
* The move now consists of two different hit-boxes.
The core, a VERY powerful, but tiny hit-box in the center, that does 8-15%, and the edging, the rest of the explosion; an incredibly weak, set knockback hit-box. It does 3-7%.
* The fireball travels slightly faster (Not confirmed, but reported to be so by multiple people.)
* The channel distance, fireball maneuverability, and explosion hit-box, have all been nerfed.
* The fireball explosion still retains "normal" priority, and it still causes special fall if used in the air.
-- This is just terrible...

Up Special - "Farore's Wind":
* Farore's Wind now carries jump momentum during the startup animation. (Actually, It always did. It's just FAR more noticeable in SSB4 because her 2nd jump is so much bigger.) < So... Now carries jump momentum BETTER.
* The vanishing animation, and the invisible travel time, are quicker. Apparently, though, the reappear animation length is the same.
* Reappearing while airborne still forces you to fall a great deal with no horizontal movement.
* The disappear hit-box does 6%. (Unknown if it does anything more.)
* The reappearing hit is now made up of two hit-boxes. The larger hit-box is larger than it was in Brawl, and does 10%. The second hit-box is smaller (Still large-ish.) and is centered on Zelda. This one does a whopping 12% and has very large knockback.
* The reappearing hit-box no longer has a flame effect, but instead, a slash effect.(FINALLY.)
* The disappearing animation can once again snap ledges! (Like in Melee. This feature was removed in Brawl.)
* It appears that Zelda will now auto-grab ledges at ANY TIME during her invisible travelling period if they're near enough to her.

Down Special - "Phantom Slash" AKA the NEW MOVE:
"Zelda creates a small-ish purple portal/vortex that once released, lets loose Phantom Armor (Like the one Zelda possesses in Spirit Tracks.) That lunges forward and swings its sword to attack opponents, and defend Zelda."
* The move can be charged, and doing so increases the range, power, and damage. (5-16%?) More charge also changes the type of Slash it does.
* No charge and it does a small, horizontal slash. Mid charge and it does an overhead, downwards slash. Fully charge it and the Phantom lunges forward and then does a MASSIVE uppercut slash, doing two hits.
* The fully charged Phantom Slash does two hits, yes, but it can do up to 26%! The sliding lunging hit does 12%, and the uppercut slash does 16%(?).
* When fully charged the purple vortex quickly flashes pink. It takes around 1.5 seconds to fully charge.
* It can be used while airborne and causes NO special fall afterwards. (woot!)
* The Phantom has NO gravity properties, and will stay on a single Y-plane when used. (It looks sorta funny when released in mid-air.)
* The Phantom can take hits from projectiles and shield Zelda. It can be seen taking 25% at full charge. It can take multiple projectiles before being destroyed too! (As it took one of Samus's missiles, and didn't die.)
* The Phantom is considered a projectile, and can be reflected by projectile reflecting moves. (UGH!!!)
* There is a brief period of time after the Phantom slashes where it's still there, and Zelda can act.
* Trying to use Phantom Slash while the Phantom is still on-screen causes Zelda to do a "no bullet whiff" animation.
* The Phantom appears to have some sort of "wall-like" properties. (Not Confirmed.) (It could be seen pushing Mega Man back slightly.)
Grab/Pummel:
* Her standing grab appears to connect significantly faster. ("And that day there was a collective sigh of relief and happiness.")
* Pummel does 3\4%.

Fthrow:
* Does 12\13% and sends at around a 45 degree angle.
* Its knockback seems nearly the same as Brawl.

Bthrow:
* Does 11\12% and sends at around a 135 degree angle (45 degrees behind her.)
* The knockback MAY be different/stronger. It sure acts weird. (It could cause a "red flash"--KO styled flash at only 59% on another Zelda, but couldn't get very close to a KO on a bowser at 88%.)

Dthrow:
* The damage it does has been reduced to 6% over 5 hits. (Like... Why...)
* It now knocks slightly farther at lower percents, and releases at a higher angle.

Final Smash is still The Light Arrow. It does 40%. It also seems to be slightly more powerful. Neat!

Well, I think that's it! As you can see, not SUPER different, but there are some changes. I'm afraid at this state she won't be much better than she was in Brawl. Let's hope Sakurai addresses some of the necessary issues before its release...

Like Novice_Brave here, I scoured my butt off over video replays too. :V

 

[Novice_Brave]

*Sigh*

It's like no one respects the work I put into this. I put out a huge thing like this MONTHS ago, (Around Late April) but not one sh*t was given about it... > _ >

Original thingy with some red note amendments.


Like Novice_Brave here, I scoured my butt off over video replays too. :V

Wow, sorry I didn't see your thread, you've obviously worked super hard on this all. Thank you for all of that information!

 

[Maraphy]

My friend told me Zelda's Farore Wind has a sparkle effect to show which direction you're moving in now ? Can someone confirm/deny this? I really hope that's not true..

Edit: Here's the source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_5D8mmjX98&feature=youtu.be&t=10m13s

Yeah, it's true, but it looks like it happens quick enough that it won't be a huge signal for the opponent.

 

[Novice_Brave]

My friend told me Zelda's Farore Wind has a sparkle effect to show which direction you're moving in now ? Can someone confirm/deny this? I really hope that's not true..

I can't say I've seen that in any footage I've watched. I doubt it, but I suppose it could be something that doesn't easily show up on video - but, I've seen and heard no other evidence to support this so for now I'm going to assume that there is no such effect.

 

[BJN39]

Wow, sorry I didn't see your thread, you've obviously worked super hard on this all. Thank you for all of that information!

Well, I guess part of the fault is mine in that I never made a thread, but posted this on a couple threads WITHIN the SSB4 Zelda boards. xP

EDIT: Oh, @ Maraphy , that was probably about a clip shown back at the April smash direct during the "stages" video portion. There was a 3ds clip where there can be seen a few sparkles trailing in the direction Zelda went while she was invisible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJhU9PffxWk < @ 28 seconds in. Look closely and you can see a few faint sparkles where Zelda 'was'. It doesn't appear to be an intentional feature, though.

 

[eungelic]

Thank you for this @ Novice_Brave (and @ BJN39 ). It has been hard to find information about Zelda that isn't completely doom and gloom.

I was hoping they would remove the free-fall after using Din's Fire while airborne, but I guess I will settle for an increased sweetspot.

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Thank you for this @ Novice_Brave (and @ BJN39 ). It has been hard to find information about Zelda that isn't completely doom and gloom.

I was hoping they would remove the free-fall after using Din's Fire while airborne, but I guess I will settle for an increased sweetspot.

I would much rather Din's fire having no sweetspot (a sweetspot that it actually doesn't even need) than going helpless after using it. I can't count how many times I have stood too close to the edge and just slightly edged forward while using Din's, I have tried to cover the ledge but didn't time it right and released too early, meaning I fall the my death anyway. I think Din's would have more edge guarding potential, kind of like the phantom, if it didn't cause you to go helpless.

 

[eungelic]

I would much rather Din's fire having no sweetspot (a sweetspot that it actually doesn't even need) than going helpless after using it. I can't count how many times I have stood too close to the edge and just slightly edged forward while using Din's, I have tried to cover the ledge but didn't time it right and released too early, meaning I fall the my death anyway. I think Din's would have more edge guarding potential, kind of like the phantom, if it didn't cause you to go helpless.

I agree. I would much rather have recovery options following an airborne Din's Fire than the increased sweetspot. Do you see it being any more viable in Smash 4 than the previous installments? I was happy to see the increased sweetspot until I noticed it's now slower and has a shorter distance... It just feels like one step forward and two steps back to me.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I agree. I would much rather have recovery options following an airborne Din's Fire than the increased sweetspot. Do you see it being any more viable in Smash 4 than the previous installments? I was happy to see the increased sweetspot until I noticed it's now slower and has a shorter distance... It just feels like one step forward and two steps back to me.

Honestly, I think Din's Fire has decreased in viability, if anything. It's unfortunate, but at the very least, I suppose it's better for them to nerf a move that was already bad?

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Honestly, I think Din's Fire has decreased in viability, if anything. It's unfortunate, but at the very least, I suppose it's better for them to nerf a move that was already bad?

I mean it's not like it didn't already suck, so just because it sucks more now can't be that bad. At least they didn't do anything awful Nayru's Love, which is probably one of Zelda's better moves all things considered.
I think the ability to jump after Din's Fire would have been real useful, particularly when you consider edge guarding, it could be like a slower phantom that's controllable. Than we would run into the problem that Zelda has two moves that are similar in use. What Din's Fire really needs is a really big explosion and it needs to be faster. Range isn't that important and I'm willing to risk it. It should force an approach.

 

[eungelic]

Honestly, I think Din's Fire has decreased in viability, if anything. It's unfortunate, but at the very least, I suppose it's better for them to nerf a move that was already bad?

That is unfortunate, but I agree with your last point. I couldn't imagine Zelda would be in any better a position if Din's Fire was extremely viable, but a different move became unviable.

I mean it's not like it didn't already suck, so just because it sucks more now can't be that bad. At least they didn't do anything awful Nayru's Love, which is probably one of Zelda's better moves all things considered.
I think the ability to jump after Din's Fire would have been real useful, particularly when you consider edge guarding, it could be like a slower phantom that's controllable. Than we would run into the problem that Zelda has two moves that are similar in use. What Din's Fire really needs is a really big explosion and it needs to be faster. Range isn't that important and I'm willing to risk it. It should force an approach.

Do you think that will be possible through the custom moves? (I have not looked into custom moves that much, so I'm not sure what exactly they entail... Sorry if that is an obvious question!)

 

[Novice_Brave]

That is unfortunate, but I agree with your last point. I couldn't imagine Zelda would be in any better a position if Din's Fire was extremely viable, but a different move became unviable.


Do you think that will be possible through the custom moves? (I have not looked into custom moves that much, so I'm not sure what exactly they entail... Sorry if that is an obvious question!)

Quite frankly, almost anything is possible through custom moves - that's another prospect that we'll just have to wait and see about

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Quite frankly, almost anything is possible through custom moves - that's another prospect that we'll just have to wait and see about

I am excited about the custom moves.

 

[Zero Suit Dominic]

I am excited about the custom moves.

Me too! I can't wait to see what they have for Zelda!

 

[Katty Shepherd]

Me too! I can't wait to see what they have for Zelda!

Holy fish on a stick! We only have twelve more days until Japanese release!
Let's hope that the custom moves can make up for her weaknesses and that we can use them in tournaments. I think they should, given that they add another layer of tactics and builds deemed too "strong" should be banned.
To be honest Din's doesn't seem that bad, I mean it has more weaknesses but maybe we're thinking about it too much like the old Din's. If one strategy doesn't work, than we try the other one and I honestly think Zelda's mains need to start looking at different perspectives as much as Zelda's need a few more buffs.

 

[eungelic]

Not sure if this belongs here, but here's what Zipzo mentioned about Zelda from the new Japanese Smash 4 demo.

Side B (Din's Fire)

Q. "What is the time between releasing the special attack button for Din's Fire and it creating a hitbox?"
A. "The explosion seems to happen more instantaneously from the point in which you "release" it."

Down B (Phantom)

"It doesn't hit a character right up in her grill. The phantom spawns maybe a character away, so if your opponent is right up on you, the phantom will just spawn in front of them and whiff."

Fair & Bair / Up B (Farore's Wind)

Q. "Is Lightning Heel closer to Melee or Brawl (or, god forbid, Project M)?"
A. "Thunder heel feels a little nerfed but her recovery has some ridiculous kill power on it for some reason."

Overall

Q. "Overall, how does Zelda feel to you, does she feel stronger in this than she did in Brawl?"
A. "Her phantom attack is actually pretty cool but something to note is that it will not hit a character standing directly in front of you. It will start a model away from zelda and rush forward, completely ignoring the character standing in your grill. I haven't played Zelda all too often in previous iterations but she felt like a glass cannon, if you will. Each of her abilities seemed to really freaking hurt when connected, but she's pretty light."

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Thanks eungelic! I was just about ask if anyone had complied a list from the zipzo thread. Phantom sounds a bit disappointing. It more and more sounds like a really situational move for singles.

Lightning kick nerf? And Din's Fire buff (instantaneous sounds faster to me)?

Everything else seems vague. Hope more info comes out.

 

[micstar615]

I would take his opinion on Lightening Kick with a grain of salt, he said he isn't really experienced with Zelda so it's tough to say if his opinion is accurate, also he didn't state how it was nerfed, does it have less knock back or is it harder to sweetspot? The latter was the main issue in Brawl and that's what we should be working to find out. Even if knockback for it is slightly reduced I'm sure it'll still be a solid kill option IF it's easier to land.

 

[Zero Suit Dominic]

she felt like a glass cannon, if you will. Each of her abilities seemed to really freaking hurt when connected, but she's pretty light."

I don't know why, but I kinda like the idea of Zelda being a glass cannon. I'm not sure if we have had a character like this in Smash Bros. games before, but if it's anyone it should be Zelda. I know a lot of people actually don't like glass cannons, but I think it fits Zelda pretty well.