Compendium of all known Zelda buffs/nerfs/changes

[Toadallstar2]

Skipping around, so I managed to get the times.

1hr38min is 4-man match with Zelda
3hr05min for 1v1 Zelda (with Nairo switching her on and off with Robin from then on)

omfgggg YES. Those grabs, that flawless Up+B. oh my, Zelda is a force. Of course, still gets punished quite a bit.
I expected Mac to be a problem as soon as he was revealed and I was right.

Dair is such a reliable move now, and so fast. gahhh I love my main.

 

[RayaGRH]

Awesome video of Zelda - first two matches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofv8fvTs4V8

 

[Chauzu]

I just wanted to add about Faroe's Wind that the Up B > Up B combo can be a bit unreliable. Sometimes it sends the opponent up at an angle, and I presume it is depending on where Zelda stands compared to the opponent. Like in one game I had vs. Ness where I had a great chance to do it but missed the following Up-B... Something that needs testing in the future.

Edit: Don't know if this has been said yet but I've been hanging in the practise room for an hour with Zelda now and by the looks of it the only short hop aerial without landing lag is nair if you use it right away in the air. Dunno if this was the case in Brawl.

 

[SpLSlick]

Isnt that footage from the same guy who posted right above this message lol

 

[micstar615]

I just wanted to add about Faroe's Wind that the Up B > Up B combo can be a bit unreliable. Sometimes it sends the opponent up at an angle, and I presume it is depending on where Zelda stands compared to the opponent. Like in one game I had vs. Ness where I had a great chance to do it but missed the following Up-B... Something that needs testing in the future.

Edit: Don't know if this has been said yet but I've been hanging in the practise room for an hour with Zelda now and by the looks of it the only short hop aerial without landing lag is nair if you use it right away in the air. Dunno if this was the case in Brawl.

Yeah, I noticed that Up B doesn't combo into it's second hit like Zipzo said, sometimes the knockback of the first hit sends the opponent too low or too much to the side for the reappearance to hit. This is definitely not a consistent combo and it'll need testing, I think it only works at certain percents and at a certain part of the initial strike. Her down tilt can combo into UAir at higher percents though, which is wonderful, Dtilt seems to have increased range and it seems like it's one of Zelda's safer options close range, it seems like it can combo into something at most percents.

 

[WaveDashCash]

Seeing all of those buffs makes me really, REALLY happy. As someone who loves playing Zelda, this makes me super excited.
Maybe now when discussing tier lists, Zelda won't be laughed off as easy:

 

[Nairo]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

 

[PrimalCarnage]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

Nice to know!

Chaozu was showing it off earlier in one his vids, but could you further test the viability of phantom as a shield-break move? Thanks.

 

[「 Derk 」]

I been making a checklist for things I plan on testing with Zelda when the game comes out next month. This is just a brainstorm that I add things to whenever I think of something.

Combos:
•Nayru's → Fair/Bair
•Down Throw → Up smash/Fair/Bair/Dair/Uair/Nair
•Ftilt → Up smash/Down smash/Side smash/Nayru
•Dtilt → Up smash/Fair/Bair/Uair
•Can we control Nair's launch direction like in Brawl?
•Can Dair be used in combos now that stage spikes cause opponents to bounce?
•Is Din's Fire a follow up option? With the increase of hitstun in smash 4 this could be a great option to land sweetspots and chain combos.

Advanced techs:
•Edge cancel → Fair/Bair/Dair/Uair/Nair
•Edge cancel → Phantom (All 3 variants)
•Edge cancel → Nayru (All 3 variants)
•Edge cancel → Reverse Din's (All 3 variants) (This is a retreating option for spacing)
•Is Love Jumping still possible?

On shield pressure and safety:
•Fair/Bair
•Retreating Nair
•Dtilt/Ftilt
•Shield breaker phantom

Other:
•Nayru's push edge guard potential
•Nayru's explosion offstage as a edge guard option since it draws in and has good knockback
•Phantom Slash offstage as an edge guard option (Shield breaker variant)
•Din's delayed version as offstage pressure/stage control.
•Din's sniping version for combos/pressure.

 

[Crudedude]

I think if you're going with heavy din's fire having naryu's 1 or 2 and phantom 1 or 3 will be best naryu's two just to distort opponents and phantom to place your guard

 

[BJN39]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

Liked it? It was like watching a pro Zelda player! I loved it! I hope you continue to play Zelda in smash 4. You were DEFINITELY turning heads.

Also, IDK if you don't use custom specials, but if you do, I highly recommend Phantom (shield) Breaker, as it seems people loved using their shields, then you could easily cut it down by 50% at minimal charge. Also, it goes some distance even at 0 charge, which is WAY nicer than having to charge for nearly a second for any distance.

Also, I suppose Phantom breaker must be the custom special they accidentally showed a quick clip of back at the April smash direct. go see for y'all's' selfs. When they preview Zelda, I think it's phantom clip 2 (and ONLY that clip) where you see the phantom boost forward at 0 charge, like Phantom Breaker.

 

[Chauzu]

Ok, some more things I have noticed that may or may not be known:

- Nayru's Love doesn't send the opponent in front of you like in Brawl. If you hit an opponent behind you it gets knocked back behind you. Not sure if this is a good change or not tbh.
- I was sceptic to neutral A before but it's growing on me. It has increased knockback than in Brawl - if you hit one the opponent gets knocked back just enough so it can't hit you with a tilt / smash attack so useful for quick close range spacing.
- Zelda's back throw is a kill move (don't know how it was in Brawl, sorry!). I managed to KO some middleweight fighter by the ledge with it at 100%-ish.
- Even standard Phantom is proving to be more and more useful for me in For Glory mode. Even uncharged standard version has great horizontal reach and is great against aggressive characters. Espescially against Little Mac, as you set it up, Little Mac smashes into it and you are free to hit him back.
- And on that point, I'm not sure if this is known? The Phantom acts like a shield as well. So like a Little Mac dash attack will stop after hitting the Phantom while it normally would have long range and continued to hit Zelda. Not sure if I'm making myself clear or if this is very old news, I just haven't been keeping up with how Phantom works.

 

[Alacion]

I'm a filthy casual so I don't have to read any posts in this thread :D Hopefully this wasn't posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFEeul3ubKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2z95qRNyI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdOVX2FXGLM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M-W42EzCcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOx6ufV57Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeyhynY_hkI

Seems to lose badly to Little Mac but that's what Peach is for.

 

[Chauzu]

Ok, more info. Prepare for a big post.

Faroe's Wind

I've tried to count frames a bit from my video's. I've never done this before so probably some mistakes, feel free to correct.

Faroe's Wind seems to be around 30 frames long in total, didn't find any good footage to check the lag though so this is inaccurate. The key though is...

5 frames until startup hit (followed by a number of frames afterwards where you decide the direction)
21 frames until reapperance hit (you will always reappear after the same amount of time no matter how long distance you travel)

So in just 21 frames you can travel an incredible distance and hit opponents with a move that can kill grounded opponents from at least 100%+. Even if I've miscounted it can't be that far off? My point basically is that it's fast to execute, only downside is the ending lag.

I've started using Faroe's Wind as a great punishing move when playing For Glory as well. Whenever I see the opponent shoot a projectile, like Robin with Elfire, Samus with Missile or Pikachu with his neutral special, I punish with Faroe's Wind. If the opponent charges an attack, I punish with Faroe's Wind. If my opponent uses an attack that has long animation or big lag, I punish with Faroe's Wind. It's very efficient and if you time it right the opponent can't react. Might just be the best punishment move in the game... I can't think of any other move where you can safely punish so many actions easily, from so many different positions and with so little risk if just timed right.

Also, about the Faroe's Wind startup > reappearance combo (we need a good name for this seriously!). I think *some* of the inaccuracies we have seen with this move depends on the 3DS joystick. I don't know about you guys but I've always used the stick to control where Faroe's Wind is aimed, even if straight up. The 3DS stick isn't that great though and I find myself making silly mistakes quite a bit while playing. But if you just do Faroe's Wind and let go of the stick, it will send you straight up. It seems a lot more consistent this way, although I still miss it a few times in practise, and I can't really explain why yet.

Another thing that will probably be big is that there is room from the startup hit of Faroe's Wind where you can decide where you want to go - I have no idea how to test how many frames but surely not more than 7. Not sure if this is clear but take this scenario for example:

An opponent approaches Zelda, she shields from the attack and you see an opportunity for the Faroe's Wind combo. You execute it but for some reason it didn't work - maybe the opponent had time to shield, maybe you didn't sweetspot it. The point here is that you still have time to stop going up in the air to fall helplessly into freefall. If you see that the startup hit missed, you have a few frames of time in which to teleport somewhere else. This is huge imo, and makes that combo much more plausible to use in the future.

The timing is so small that it is INCREDIBLY hard to pull of (espescially with any lag, like online), but it's possible. I think the major point will be to instantly react to what you see, and not what you are presuming to see. Like, I mean, you only use the Faroe's Wind combo when you are sure to nail it so you get surprised when you didn't, and then there's no time to stop it. But if you just initiate Faroe's Wind and wait and see, you will be able to bail out if you're quick enough. I will try this out online in the future and try to see if I can get used to this (in matches with good connection ).

So I think it's a good thing to start practising always initiating Faroe's Wind and then wait before aiming with the stick, even with recovery. This might have been possible before - I don't know, I never tried in Brawl! - and I might be the only one not doing it already lol, but every Zelda main will need to now I think. I've also missed a lot of recoveries myself because of the stick and fallen to my death and the safest recovery with Zelda (in For Glory) is to fall straight below the ledge and recover straight up, so you will for the most time not need to aim it in any case.

Ok that was a lot, sorry, hope it was clear.

Edgeguarding

Ok, so there is a new meta developing where you edgeguard by hogging the ledge from the opponent the moment they grab the ledge in order to gimp them when they are off-stage and I've tried to see if there's potential for this with Zelda.

Firstly, how to grab the ledge as fast as possible from a position on the ground. Some characters in Smash 4 can just run off the stage and grab by holding the stick to the ledge, but Zelda can't - she need to jump. I've found two quick ways to do this.

- Dash towards the ledge, short hop at the right time, fast fall and instantly after push the stick towards the edge.
- Shield and roll to the edge of the ledge with the back towards it. Short hop, move slightly out of the stage, fast falling and quickly push the stick towards the edge.

This isn't that hard after practise but kinda precise and if you mess up Zelda won't grab the ledge.

But what can see do after taking the ledge from the opponent? Unfortunately I have no idea lol, the CPU is stupid and doesn't go for the ledge unless it has to. I'm trying to find set-ups that work (setting the % to a certain point and using a certain attack that always send the opponent far enough). I'll report back later.

 

[Kataefi]

Farore's out of shield looks like a good choice. Can the startup hit be DI'd? I imagine there's a window of percent in order to truly combo the startup hit with the end one (It looks to be between 50-70 but will be weight dependent, something we all have to learn).

The same will be for dtilt > fair.

It looks like she now has multiple setups into very early kills, which is something she nearly had in brawl but that didn't quite work out unfortunately.

@ Chauzu : the length of a quick phantom looks really good. What is the knockback/damage like? And when the phantom connects with something, does it immediately stop attacking, or will it always attack at least once??

 

[Chauzu]

I have no idea about if you can DI and can't test it myself really, that might be part of the "problem".

I'm going to try and get some studying done and then continue testing so back later! Edgeguarding + how the different Phantoms work are top of the priority list.

 

[Kataefi]

I imagine because it kills so early now, the opponent can DI the first hit and it will be up to Zelda player whether they choose to follow their DI to get the kill, or teleport elsewhere if they're not confident enough they can react in time.

I think this type of kill is going to be between specific percents and whether we can follow their DI successfully (which is cool cos that makes it more skilful imo)!!

I'm def interested in all this. If dtilt and Teleport are now faster and combo into killers, we'd be able to punish out of a well placed spot dodge really well!

 

[Chauzu]

Oh yeah about D-tilt, I'm starting to use it more and it really has great utility, but still hard to use because you don't have any time to react really - you need to instantly f-tilt, f-smash, u-tilt or jump afterwards. I've been able to land a lot of stuff from d-tilt as well, f-tilt is the most consistent at lower %. So yeah we'll need to learn at what % we can use what move against which char... And don't get your hype meters up too much but I've at least once got a sweetspot fair from d-tilt. Might have been bad play from opponent.

And about f-tilt - I really love this move. Great range, decently quick. The pivot f-tilt is beautiful, it's arguably Zelda's best move against Little Mac imo and just great overall.

 

[BJN39]

I'm a filthy casual so I don't have to read any posts in this thread :D Hopefully this wasn't posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFEeul3ubKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2z95qRNyI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdOVX2FXGLM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M-W42EzCcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOx6ufV57Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeyhynY_hkI

Seems to lose badly to Little Mac but that's what Peach is for.

Oooh, thank you! I was really hoping there were YT versions of Nairo's battles after I watched the stream replay last night, 'cuz I hadn't gone and researched every ounce of them yet. * - *

And yeah, Zelda definitely seems o be able to hold her own against most MUs, but it seems there are characters that'll still be giving her some trouble like Ness and Little Mac. I'm hoping as the game matures, these MUs will stay decent like they seem now.

 

[Nairo]

I been making a checklist for things I plan on testing with Zelda when the game comes out next month. This is just a brainstorm that I add things to whenever I think of something.

Combos:
•Nayru's → Fair/Bair
•Down Throw → Up smash/Fair/Bair/Dair/Uair/Nair
•Ftilt → Up smash/Down smash/Side smash/Nayru
•Dtilt → Up smash/Fair/Bair/Uair
•Can we control Nair's launch direction like in Brawl?
•Can Dair be used in combos now that stage spikes cause opponents to bounce?
•Is Din's Fire a follow up option? With the increase of hitstun in smash 4 this could be a great option to land sweetspots and chain combos.

Advanced techs:
•Edge cancel → Fair/Bair/Dair/Uair/Nair
•Edge cancel → Phantom (All 3 variants)
•Edge cancel → Nayru (All 3 variants)
•Edge cancel → Reverse Din's (All 3 variants) (This is a retreating option for spacing)
•Is Love Jumping still possible?

On shield pressure and safety:
•Fair/Bair
•Retreating Nair
•Dtilt/Ftilt
•Shield breaker phantom

Other:
•Nayru's push edge guard potential
•Nayru's explosion offstage as a edge guard option since it draws in and has good knockback
•Phantom Slash offstage as an edge guard option (Shield breaker variant)
•Din's delayed version as offstage pressure/stage control.
•Din's sniping version for combos/pressure.

I will try to test out some of these things as some can possibly work!

I'm a filthy casual so I don't have to read any posts in this thread :D Hopefully this wasn't posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cq2fkkQnVGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFEeul3ubKk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV2z95qRNyI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdOVX2FXGLM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M-W42EzCcY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOx6ufV57Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeyhynY_hkI

Seems to lose badly to Little Mac but that's what Peach is for.

They weren't posted before so good stuff! and btw that avi thooo! Im listening to the opening of ToG right now cheria too good lmao

Liked it? It was like watching a pro Zelda player! I loved it! I hope you continue to play Zelda in smash 4. You were DEFINITELY turning heads.

Also, IDK if you don't use custom specials, but if you do, I highly recommend Phantom (shield) Breaker, as it seems people loved using their shields, then you could easily cut it down by 50% at minimal charge. Also, it goes some distance even at 0 charge, which is WAY nicer than having to charge for nearly a second for any distance.

Also, I suppose Phantom breaker must be the custom special they accidentally showed a quick clip of back at the April smash direct. go see for y'all's' selfs. When they preview Zelda, I think it's phantom clip 2 (and ONLY that clip) where you see the phantom boost forward at 0 charge, like Phantom Breaker.

Thanks! I haven't messed with some custom moves in actual matches but I did unlock some if not all of zeldas custom moves so I can mess around with them too!

 

[Toadallstar2]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

Hey I loved your gameplay. Really impressed considering how short of a time we actually had the game, yet you figured out lots of mechanics and tricks for Zelda. Look forward to more videos (!!!) and discussion from you.

___

I found this vid online, it doesn't really tell us too much, but I think some combo between dtilt and ftilt seems possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeAqW9LiRos
A good teleport combo as well happened.

 

[Novice_Brave]

Btw guys, I've added some more confirmed stuff to the first post! Things are looking great.

 

[Squii The Fish]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

I absolutely loved what you where doing with only a (day 1?) Zelda, watched the vids man great stuff.

Very hype.

Not having smash 4 but maining her in the previous titles makes me a little curious about combo potential after seeing your footage. Does Up-tilt have enough hitstun to chain into Farore's Wind?

And I highly doubt it but I feel its worth asking, does she have any setups for footstools on aerial opponents?

 

[BJN39]

I absolutely loved what you where doing with only a (day 1?) Zelda, watched the vids man great stuff.

Very hype.

Not having smash 4 but maining her in the previous titles makes me a little curious about combo potential after seeing your footage. Does Up-tilt have enough hitstun to chain into Farore's Wind?

And I highly doubt it but I feel its worth asking, does she have any setups for footstools on aerial opponents?

First, Utilt most surely doesn't have the hit-stun to allow a FW followup. Sorry.

As for the footstool into Aerial, could we not possibly do a close to the ground > SH footstool into sweetspot DAir when they land > profit combo? I heard that the sweetspot is bigger, and of course you can sweetspot grounded opponents.

 

[Squii The Fish]

First, Utilt most surely doesn't have the hit-stun to allow a FW followup. Sorry.

A girl can dream. Oh well.

As for the footstool into Aerial, could we not possibly do a close to the ground > SH footstool into sweetspot DAir when they land > profit combo? I heard that the sweetspot is bigger, and of course you can sweetspot grounded opponents.

Yes, this is exactly what I am looking for. Dair got buffed this time around and guaranteed damage would be nice lol.

 

[Mocha]

I think this was already posted, but her f-tilt always seems to send the opponent in the same direction? I noticed that when angling it, it doesn't seem to be make any difference. It sends opponents away from her, making it harder to follow-up. Yet I heard that her f-tilt is 'faster' than it was in Brawl. Is this confirmed?

 

[BJN39]

@ Mocha Yeah, her Ftilt sends well, forward. It also certainly LOOKS faster. It hasn't been data confirmed or anything, but I'm quite sure at this point, otherwise it likely would be able to follow up a jab or Dtilt like it does.

The 'trade off' so to speak was that he Utilt's angles were 'inverted ' inward, it has hugely reduced KB, and it hits instantly, and can basically IASA right after the arc motion, making it the new 'combo-like' move. Sort of along with Dtilt, which combos into itself and other attacks and grab to an extent with its new upward angle.

 

[Ochobobo]

Dunno if anyone mentioned this (I didn't see it in the original post) but Nayru's doesn't push people in the direction Zelda's facing anymore. It just knocks em back.

Before, you could be facing the edge and use NL to push someone behind you off the edge.

 

[Rajing Clue]

So I've been playing alot of For Glory... I'm 90% sure you can pull of D Tilt > F Air as a true combo in many, many scenarios... not much in life much more satisfying then landing that ****

 

[CandyCakes]

Glad you guys liked the zelda gameplay! Zelda's first hit upb can connect to the 2nd hit I believe around 70% but its way harder to land the first upb so its best not to really do it. If you guys have any questions/want me to test something with zelda just let me know and I'll try to figure it out!

Is she honestly good or bad in smash 4, it seems like her fair and bair r nerfed and is farores wind a reliable kill option because Its hard to get kills with her in smash 4

 

[Novice_Brave]

Is she honestly good or bad in smash 4, it seems like her fair and bair r nerfed and is farores wind a reliable kill option because Its hard to get kills with her in smash 4

I've now played about 75 For Glory matches with her, and I'm definitely going to say she's better than she has ever been. Keep up pressure with jabs and dtilts, along with d and fsmashes when you can get them in - and dash attack is an excellent punisher. Every time you knock them away, make them work to get back to you with Phantoms and/or Din's - and Phantom is an excellent tool to punish a too-aggressive approach. While I guess they may be (I don't know the exact data) I can honestly say that I don't feel any nerf to her fair or bair - if anything, they feel slightly buffed to me. I'm sweetspotting them easier than I ever have been and they feel faster as well. Nayru's can also be a good "gtfo" tool if they're all up in your grill and you want to knock them back for some breathing room.

Farore's can kill very easily after 90-110% on most characters. But, keep in mind that it is definitely fairly easy to read and is punishable - so I would advise using it defensively most of the time - but it is pretty fast and goes very far, so if you see a chance to pull it out (teleporting in place, teleporting into them charging a smash, etc.) it can score kills for sure. I also find that fsmash is a pretty good kill option - just be careful to use it while they're grounded. Seems the sourspot where they fall out of it is on the upper part of it, so if it hits someone in the air it'll only do 1-3%. Usmash is fine if you can hit it, and dsmash is a fast option if they're at a fairly high %. If the enemy is past ~125%, a back throw on the edge will most likely kill them. Those are her easiest/most reliable kill options, I think - but a sweetspotted Din's, all her aerials, and a fully charged Phantom can kill pretty early as well.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Just so you know: I killed a Lucina with Farore's Wind at 37% (49% post FW). She was on the ground, and it was a star KO.

I seriously don't know what happened, but I won't complain.

 

[FiXalaS]

so, she actually seems to be very strong, completely shocked as I thought before release that she was nerfed.

so good.