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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
That's an extremely solid code set for anyone interested in a slightly more fast-paced game than the unofficial set kupo15 posted on the first page.

Other than using 1.25 down grav. instead of 1.2 down / 1.05 up, I like all of your settings. I haven't tried the shield gain, either. I successfully removed the dash canceling from the merged code, by the way. Thanks for putting that code together and thanks for the instructions on specific code removal.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
So you're saying adventure mode's in the same disc section as SSE, right?
I'm saying that SSE (which is what I mean by "adventure mode") is its whole own folder, separate from multiplayer which has its own folder on the disc as well (with the stages and all). It doesn't help that the SSE stages are also of a different compression type compared to the multiplayer stages.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Are the stickers in this same section?

I don't want to "derail" the thread with talk of character balance, but you may recall that we discussed balancing characters using sticker effects. Unfortunately, no one knew if we could access these attributes in the multiplayer section.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
wow I am really confused now with the new combined code. Do we add everything in there and what are we allowed to touch and what are we not allowed to touch.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
I have no idea. I would guess not, but I can't be sure. Honestly, I'm not sure of the extent of the information stored in the Character Information memory sections (which is where I get some of my codes from). It might include data on every move, making certain individual move modifications very easy (for example, changing the knockback ratio on a move). I honestly have no idea though. You'd be better off asking a more experienced hacker - I don't really have that much technical knowledge, I'm just fairly good at seeing patterns. <3 Maths.

By request:

Code:
PW Merger Code [Phantom Wings, Almas, 106 Lines]
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
[COLOR="red"]32000000 0000001C
025A9310 00000001[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]32000001 0000000F
025A9312 00000001[/COLOR]
E2000002 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
[COLOR="Blue"]92210006 00000014[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]92210007 00000014
92210008 00000068[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"]92210005 00000070[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]92210002 0000007C
92210003 00000018[/COLOR]
[COLOR="red"]92210009 00000070[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]9221000A 0000007C
9221000B 00000014[/COLOR]
9001000E 00000000
[COLOR="darkorchid"]4800100E 000000C4
9221000C 00000010
4A000000 805A0100
9221000D 00000000
88A0000C 0000000D
4A00100A 00000000
30000036 00000018
4A00100B 00000000
9221000D 00000040
8890000D 0000000C
9421000D 00000040
E2000001 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="blue"]4800100E 0000007C
30000038 00000074
86000006 00000040
86910006 XXXXXXXX
E2000001 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="lime"]4800100E 0000007C
30000038 00000005
4A001008 00000000
3400003C BF266666
4A001007 00000000
14000040 4F000000
E2000002 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Cyan"]4800100E 00000068
30000154 00000009
1400015C 0000000Y
14000150 0000000Y
E2000001 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="darkorange"]4800100E 0000007C
285A9312 FFFE0001
58010000 0000002C
92210004 00000004
4A001002 00000000
C078172C 0000000B
9421FF80 BC410008
3C808000 60841808
80A40008 80C4000C
80E40010 C0060010
C026001C FC000840
40810014 890700D4
7108007F 990700D4
4800000C 890700D5
990700D4 B8410008
38210080 4E800020
60000000 00000000
34000038 00000111
E2000002 00000000
4800100E 00000008
20001810 0000001D
14017FB0 4F000000
20001811 0000001E
14016300 4F000000
20001811 0000001F
14011124 4F000000
E2000001 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Red"]4800100E 0000007C
285A9310 FFFE0001
34000038 00000042
36000038 00000049
4A001009 00000000
58010000 00000024
58010000 0000000C
1400001C 00000088
14000018 00000088
E2000003 00000000[/COLOR]
[COLOR="yellow"]4800100E 0000007C
30000038 00000073
4A001005 00000000
58010000 00000020
92210005 0000001C
86310005 FFFFFFF7
E2000001 00000000[/COLOR]
4800100E 0000007C
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000

ASM Codes

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]Autosweetspot Ledges [Phantom Wings, 6 Lines]
C278172C 00000002
98030001 80010014
60000000 00000000
C27816E0 00000002
98030001 80010014
60000000 00000000[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"]Hitstun [Phantom Wings, 3 Lines]
C276CCD4 00000002
C022FFE0 EF7C0072
60000000 00000000[/COLOR]

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
C285765C 00000008
3FC0805A 3BDE7304
2C002F20 4082000C
C3FE2000 EC3F0072
2C002F00 4082000C
C3FE2004 EC3F0072
2C002F5C 4082000C
C3FE2008 EC3F0072
4E800020 00000000

Constant Writes

Hitstun/Shorthop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed [3 Lines]
065A9300 00000010
HITSTUNX SHORTHOP
DASHDASH FASTFALL

COLOUR
[COLOR="Red"]HITSTUN[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrange"]No Auto Sweetspot[/COLOR]
[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]Aerial Lag Reduction[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Blue"]Lagless Ledges - XXXXXXXX is constant (recommended 40800000)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Lime"]Dash Cancelling[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Cyan"]Buffer Modifier - Y is Buffer Window (use same value twice)[/COLOR]
[COLOR="Yellow"]Triple Jump Fix[/COLOR]
You should be able to remove segments at will, now.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Is there not a way to have one long code, probably the longest code, for character specific things? That way we could organize buffs, nerfs, dash speed (say if CF gets too much of a boost at 1.2 and needs a nerf while others don't, I don't know), shorthops (this is very important cause some characters don't need lower short hops and others benefit greatly from it, power/hitstun adjustments, etc. I think Samus would probably be pretty awesome if she had her short hop at 80% normal height or lower, cause it would speed her up tremendously and make her far less awkward. I think Meta would be good if you removed some of the buffs that overdo him, such as hitstun and perhaps as stated the slight nerf to his downsmash.

Great work on the super code Almas, it is working great. I just made a few alterations (8% stun vs 8.5%, 1.25 downgrav, 1.17 dash speed instead of 1.2, 1.135 fast fall instead of 1.1, and a few level freeze/reversals). It's workin awesome.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
That is my vision. I agree with the mentality that large changes should wait for a more final code standard, but some necessary changes are already apparent. If PW can make it happen, we can get a separate thread going for organizing immediate fixes and possible long-term things to watch.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Shadoof
Mookie, can you post your code? My Wii and computer aren't even in the same building, so I don't want to upload a faulty code trying to experiment with the super-code... And I think I like your values. Thanks.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Here are mah codes:
Code:
RSBE01
Smash Bros Brawl (US)

Level Freeze/Reverse Picto, CSiege, Wware, PS2, Pirate, Norfair[Phantom Wings/Almas, 11 Lines]
* 4A000000 90000000
* 1416A904 00000000
* 22623090 00000024
* 22623090 00000019
* 1416A904 BF800000
* 22623090 00000009
* 22623090 0000000B
* 22623090 00000014
* 22623090 0000001C
* 1416A904 3F800000
* E0000000 80008000

PW Merger Code [Phantom Wings, Almas, 107 Lines]
* 80000000 80623320
* 80000001 00000000
* 60000006 00000000
* 60000003 00000001
* 4A001000 00000000
* 4A101001 00000000
* 32000000 0000001C
* 025A9310 00000001
* 32000001 0000000F
* 025A9312 00000001
* E2000001 00000000
* 36000000 00000032
* 58010000 00000004
* DE000000 80008180
* 58010000 00000060
* DE000000 80008180
* 92210006 00000014
* 92210007 00000014
* 92210008 00000068
* 92210005 00000070
* 92210002 0000007C
* 92210003 00000018
* 92210009 00000070
* 9221000A 0000007C
* 9221000B 00000014
* 9001000E 00000000
* 58010000 000000C4
* 9221000C 00000010
* 4A000000 805A0100
* 9221000D 00000000
* 88A0000C 0000000D
* 4A00100A 00000000
* 30000036 00000018
* 4A00100B 00000000
* 9221000D 00000040
* 8890000D 0000000C
* 9421000D 00000040
* E2000001 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 30000038 00000074
* 86000006 00000040
* 86910006 40000000
* E2000001 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 30000038 00000005
* 4A001008 00000000
* 3400003C BF266666
* 4A001007 00000000
* 14000040 4F000000
* E2000002 00000000
* 4800100E 00000068
* 30000154 00000009
* 1400015C 00000001
* 14000150 00000001
* E2000001 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 285A9312 FFFE0001
* 58010000 0000002C
* 92210004 00000004
* 4A001002 00000000
* C078172C 0000000B
* 9421FF80 BC410008
* 3C808000 60841808
* 80A40008 80C4000C
* 80E40010 C0060010
* C026001C FC000840
* 40810014 890700D4
* 7108007F 990700D4
* 4800000C 890700D5
* 990700D4 B8410008
* 38210080 4E800020
* 60000000 00000000
* 34000038 00000111
* E2000002 00000000
* 4800100E 00000008
* 20001810 0000001D
* 14017FB0 4F000000
* 20001811 0000001E
* 14016300 4F000000
* 20001811 0000001F
* 14011124 4F000000
* E2000001 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 285A9310 FFFE0001
* 34000038 00000042
* 36000038 00000049
* 4A001009 00000000
* 58010000 00000024
* 58010000 0000000C
* 1400001C 00000088
* 14000018 00000088
* E2000003 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 30000038 00000073
* 4A001005 00000000
* 58010000 00000020
* 92210005 0000001C
* 86310005 FFFFFFF7
* E2000001 00000000
* 4800100E 0000007C
* 80100001 00000008
* 62000000 00000001
* E200000F 00000000
* 80000001 00000000
* 80100000 00000244
* 62000000 00000000
* E0000000 80008000

ASM Codes

Autosweetspot Ledges [Phantom Wings, 6 Lines]
* C278172C 00000002
* 98030001 80010014
* 60000000 00000000
* C27816E0 00000002
* 98030001 80010014
* 60000000 00000000

Hitstun [Phantom Wings, 3 Lines]
* C276CCD4 00000002
* C022FFE0 EF7C0072
* 60000000 00000000

Dash Dancing [Phantom wings,5 Lines]
* C271F474 00000004
* 81830058 2C0C000E
* 4182000C C0230040
* 48000008 FC20D090
* 60000000 00000000

Perfect Shield Window Modifier [Spunit262, 6 Lines]
C27ACF7C 00000005
2C030008 40800018
83FF007C 83FF0038
2C1F001A 40A20008
38600003 7C7F1B78
60000000 00000000

Short Hop Height/Dash Speed/Fastfall Speed Multiplier [Almas, 9 Lines]
* C285765C 00000008
* 3FC0805A 3BDE7304
* 2C002F20 4082000C
* C3FE2000 EC3F0072
* 2C002F00 4082000C
* C3FE2004 EC3F0072
* 2C002F5C 4082000C
* C3FE2008 EC3F0072
* 4E800020 00000000

P.Trainer No Swap on Death [Y.S. & Phantom Wings, 11 Lines]
* C2816AF4 0000000A
* 3E408062 3A523320
* 3A60FFFF 3E730001
* 7E732038 1E730244
* 7E529A14 80120000
* 2C00001D 41800024
* 2C000022 4181001C
* 2C170115 41820014
* 38A5FFFF 2C050000
* 40800008 38A00002
* 7C0802A6 00000000

Shield Stun V8.1 [spunit262, 6 Lines]
* C28753FC 00000005
* 83810034 80830138
* 2C040000 41810014
* 1F9C000D 3B9C0016
* 38800005 7F9C23D6
* 60000000 00000000

Hitlag Modifier [Phantom Wings, Almas, spunit262] 8 lines
* C2771EAC 00000003
* 1C840005 38840014
* 39C0000A 7C8473D6
* 2C040000 00000000
* C2876220 00000003
* 1C840005 38840014
* 39C0000A 7C8473D6
* 80660064 00000000

Constant Writes

Hitstun +8%/Shorthop Height +0%/Dash Speed +17%/Fastfall Speed +1.135
* 065A9300 00000010
* 3EF5C28F 3F800000
* 3F95C28F 3F9147AE

Downwards Gravity
* 04641524 3FA00000

No Stale Moves/Keep Fresh Bonus
* 02FC098A 00110000

Shield Gain Modifier
* 04B88454 3D4CCCCD

Tripping Rate Modifier
* 0481CB34 C0220020
* 045A9340 00000000
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
It has dash canceling built in and dash dancing as a seperate code I think. Not sure really, it's not confusing once you realize that you only modify codes in the constant writes section or the stage freeze codes before the super code.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
Is the hitstun for the new merger code calculated differently than the regular hitstun 2.0 code? Because I tried entering the same value (12% from the old tables) and it just doesn't seem the same.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Is the hitstun for the new merger code calculated differently than the regular hitstun 2.0 code? Because I tried entering the same value (12% from the old tables) and it just doesn't seem the same.
You are only supposed to alter the hitstun code in the "constant writes" section. If you do that you should see the difference.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
5,695
Location
Olympia, WA
NNID
Shadoof
Cool. I guess I'll just add my Custom CSS, Infinite replay, Unlimited objects Stage Builder, Allow Overlapping Stage Builder and Unrestricted pause camera codes on top of that and give it a go.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Character specific variations are possible. I foresee them being done like this:

For each set of codes that gives certain variables, we will find a location which can be referenced by the code which stores the information of the player using it. For example, the Dash Speed/FF/SH code recalls information from the actual Character Memory (I suspect all of them will, conveniently), and I think it's pretty clear there will be an indicator there of which character it is.

In the constants write field, we will instead write every single value used in a codeset. For example, we would have 0.8, 0.85, 0.9, 0.95...1.2 all written next to each other.

The ASM code then performs a check. It sets dash speed to AA. Then it checks if the character value field is equal to XX or YY or ZZ. If it is, it sets dash speed to BB. Then it checks if the character value field is equal to VV or WW. If it is, it sets dash speed to CC. etc. This way we can format it for many characters, and the line limit is not very large (about 1 line per character).

With a code increase, certain character specific codes will be made. The game sets up a loop, and goes to Player One's character information field. It then navigates to the move data section (which I pray exists), picking up the character ID of the character involved on the way. If the character ID is XX, then the variable V attached to the move M is changed to a specific value (we will know what to change it to because we will know its default). If the character ID is YY, then the variable W attached to the move N is changed to a different specific value. Etc. etc. The code then loops back to the start, except this time looking at Player 2's character information and repeats. This code is more line consuming (about a 30-40 line setup, then 2-3 lines per specific move modified, but will serve to fix certain annoying things such as Sheik's tiltlock without nerfing the move beyond belief.

Finally, moves which we believe are completely broken can be specifically retweaked with move specific codes if completely necessary. I recommend not, though.

Of course, some of this is circumstancial. A code length increase is feasible based on some of the work being done on Gecko OS, but it is still a whiles away and may not work as well as we want. I also rely on move data being stored in memory - I trust it is there, but it may be hard to find. The main problem, though, is that this type of modification is not the kind of thing that is THAT easy to do, and you will not make friends with hackers by asking for every permutation. We require some form of authority.
 

Blank Mauser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 16, 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Iowa
You are only supposed to alter the hitstun code in the "constant writes" section. If you do that you should see the difference.
Yeah I replaced HITSTUNX with 3F051EB8 and it seems way less from when I changed the constant in the hitstun 2.0 code.

Edit: I re entered the code and it seems I was missing some lines. Musta happened while I was switching to get different values and forgot to store modifications. =$
 

Garde

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
619
Location
SLO, CA
Almas, you are a boon to the Brawl+ community. Thank you for all your work.

Is there any reason the standard is going with no decay? It's been a feature present since SSB64, I don't really see a reason to outright remove it.

I personally think that the default decay is a bit steep, but I don't feel it should be removed entirely.
 

Jiangjunizzy

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 9, 2006
Messages
1,188
Location
irvine, CA
Almas, you are a boon to the Brawl+ community. Thank you for all your work.

Is there any reason the standard is going with no decay? It's been a feature present since SSB64, I don't really see a reason to outright remove it.

I personally think that the default decay is a bit steep, but I don't feel it should be removed entirely.
im on the fence about no decay as well. here's the decay code i use.

3/4 Stale System (6 lines)
06FC0988 00000028
3D4CCCCD 3CCCCCCD
3CB851EC 3CA3D70A
3C8F5C29 3C75C28F
3C4CCCCD 3C23D70A
3BF5C28F 3BA3D70A
 

Stratocaster

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 6, 2007
Messages
672
Location
Knoxville, TN
Almas, I don't mean to complain... but the last two merger codes you posted aren't completely working.
Specifically dash canceling and buffering. The one you posted on page 296 has dash canceling with some characters (tlink, mario, DK), but not others (squirtle, marth, most of the cast), the one on 297 has the dash canceling part in green, but it doesn't work with any characters at all...
buffering doesn't seem to functioning in the code either. You shouldn't be able to buffer from a SHAD right? Because I can press A from an air dodge before i hit the ground and then I'll jab. Also with Dashdancing, pivoting it REALLY REALLY easy, because buffering will make you attack the first frame available, and the pivot frame is available... so a 3rd grader could pivot. Other than that, its super short and it lets me use more codes so thanks for the hard work. :)
Also why does the code on 296 say it gives PKMN TR infinite stamina, it doesn't, just sayin. We gotta have individual PKMN, I wanna be a squirtle main!
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
If the codes are not working as intended it is news to me, and I have no idea why that would be caused. If I receive confirmation of these glitches I'll have a second look at it.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
I can back up the Marth not dash canceling thing, but I thought it was in my head as I didn't really test it at the time. Seeing as how someone specifically mentioned it I have to assume everything isn't functioning normally. Come to think of it, I don't think hitstun is working on certain characters as well. I was playing against CPU Ness's and Jiggs's and they seemed to get out of things way too fast. I'm not sure, it could just be computers breaking out at the first possible moment, but I don't remember this happening with the other set of codes, and it only seemed to affect a small portion of the cast.
Is there any reason the standard is going with no decay? It's been a feature present since SSB64, I don't really see a reason to outright remove it.
Well think about why they implemented such a feature in the first place. The "idea" behind it is to give people incentive to switch up their moves. Brawl took it a step further and actually really hindered you from using the same move more than a few times. What it boils down to is lazy and lame game development. Instead of actually trying to make sure every move was viable and served a purpose, they forced this completely arbitrary and restricting feature to the game. At first I was unsure about dropping it entirely, but after trying it I don't see why we need decay at all.

Most people are advocating a 3/4th reduction of decay, but how does this effect the gameplay? I tell you how it does, people don't bother about the mechanic anymore, they just play as they would if the mechanic wasn't there. Ultimately it mattered very little whether or not you tried to conserve attacks on 3/4th, so why not take the next step and remove decay entirely?

Trust me, it doesn't play or feel foreign. It makes things easier and slightly more predictable. Now you can have "set combos" that are influenced only by "DI." Before it was hard to know what you could do to your opponent at given percentages based on the fact that it also depended on how decayed your moves were! It made things much harder than it needed to be, and ultimately as I've stated was a boring, lame, poorly designed, game mechanic. The game is better without it.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
^^^^I agree but I think no decay plus fresh bonus is better
Ultimately it doesn't matter much. The fresh bonus only applies to the first time you use the move in a 9 move set, right? I don't think this adds any to the game, but hey, it's what people want and I think more people want it than no decay.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
Ultimately it doesn't matter much. The fresh bonus only applies to the first time you use the move in a 9 move set, right? I don't think this adds any to the game, but hey, it's what people want and I think more people want it than no decay.
it could matter a little. This way you cand either save your kill move for more power or spam it and not be punished. Its keeping with the theme of brawl to save your kill move and I've noticed a difference
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Unlimited Stamina is good for this, but I think no Auto-Swap on Death is a step too far.
How can you say that given what I presented earlier?

I hate to re-quote myself, but for the sake of organization:

I still prefer the PW codes.

I mean, what exactly does the Regukar PT have that Zelda/Sheik don't have that justifies the Regular PT needing fatigue for balance? One more character choice? What a misconception.

The tally of Regular PT drawbacks is huge. Removing fatigue and allowing switching is actually what balances the character to the Zelda/Sheik level.

-Zelda/Sheik maintain respawn invincibility after transformation, allowing safe transformation post stock loss. PT can't swap until after invincibility is gone.
-Zelda/Sheik can transform in the air, allowing for vastly safer transform options compared to the PT's extremely punishable ground-restricted swap.
-The PT is forced to swap upon lost stock, potentially forcing a terrible match-up. Not so for Zelda/Sheik.
-The PT has fatigue.

That's the PT. Why would we want to keep that character like that?
PW's codes remove the last two issues on that list, making the character exponentially more viable, while still keeping the first two drawbacks in order to balance out the fact that the character is 3 fighters. And in the process it allows individual Pokemon use as well if you never swap.

How can anyone justify keeping that original PT, with those 4 huge drawbacks, as a "balance choice"?

PW's codes are the ideal PT codes. I really don't see why it's not just made standard and end the story.

Once again, given the PT's extremely limited transformation options, what is so dangerous about No Swap on Death?

What's so scary about the PT that warrants he keeps 3/4 of the above drawbacks?

Even in an advantageous match, you lose a life. But with the PT, if he is winning the match with Squirtle and then loses a stock, the one stock will have changed the entire match, possibly putting the opponent in an advantage situation.
No other character has to deal with losing their match-up advantage after 1 death.
Why is it balanced to force it upon the PT?

It's incredibly hard to switch in the middle of a fight in Brawl and it's near impossible in Brawl+ since the game is much faster while the transformation time remains ridiculously slow. The first 2 drawbacks on the PT make him a sitting duck of switching, so once a stock is lost and the advantage is switched, rapidly switching to go back to the advantageous match-up is just not realistic.

Using all 3 Pokemon "on the fly" is just not going to happen. So I need to know what is so "balancing" about the auto-swap on death, please.
 

Almas

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
1,588
Adding no swap on death requires lines of code.

Lines of code are limited.

Pokémon trainer is already a viable character.
 

Garde

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 5, 2003
Messages
619
Location
SLO, CA
One thing that made both Melee and SSB64 interesting was the fact that combos were completely dependent upon the attacker reacting to the situation (from move decay, opponent %, and DI). Taking one part of the equation out to help give "standard" combos puts the Smash series more in line with traditional 2d fighters, which I personally dislike.

Move decay makes it harder for someone to get 4 stocked, which tightens up matches, which ultimately leads to more interesting fights. It's meant to penalize players who are gaining a lead by using powerful moves and not dying.
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Adding no swap on death requires lines of code.

Lines of code are limited.

Pokémon trainer is already a viable character.
So you're position is entirely rooted in the line limitations, then, and has nothing to do with game balance?

You're saying No Stamina is all that's necessary? No Swap on Death and the Independent Pokemon codes are out?


Didn't you mention earlier that PW's two PT codes can be shortened and combined? Maybe you didn't say anything about shortening them, but I'm fairly certain I recall you mentioning that they could be combined.

I mean, no one's tried it. Everyone looks at those two codes like that's the end of the story.
You just shaved off 84 lines.
The No Swap code is 11 lines long. You're saying there's no way to shorten and combine the No Fatigue and No Swap code so that we save 11 lines and have the line total be the same as current No Stamina only?
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
One thing that made both Melee and SSB64 interesting was the fact that combos were completely dependent upon the attacker reacting to the situation (from move decay, opponent %, and DI). Taking one part of the equation out to help give "standard" combos puts the Smash series more in line with traditional 2d fighters, which I personally dislike.

Move decay makes it harder for someone to get 4 stocked, which tightens up matches, which ultimately leads to more interesting fights. It's meant to penalize players who are gaining a lead by using powerful moves and not dying.
funny thing is that 64's DI and decay system was soo weak that it resembled traditional fighters the most seeing how combos in training mode worked on humans which contradicts what you said. I think the best decay system would be damage only with fresh bonus
 

Eaode

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
2,923
Location
Glen Cove/RIT, New York.
One thing that made both Melee and SSB64 interesting was the fact that combos were completely dependent upon the attacker reacting to the situation (from move decay, opponent %, and DI). Taking one part of the equation out to help give "standard" combos puts the Smash series more in line with traditional 2d fighters, which I personally dislike.

Move decay makes it harder for someone to get 4 stocked, which tightens up matches, which ultimately leads to more interesting fights. It's meant to penalize players who are gaining a lead by using powerful moves and not dying.
Move Decay has never really affected gameplay until Brawl. It only reduced damage slightly in Melee, and noone ever based any strategy around it. It's just a lazy game mechanic that serves to punish "spammers," who are just players that know how to best use their character's moves. I say good riddance, although if there was a code for damage decay only, that would be very acceptable.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
Joined
Apr 27, 2006
Messages
7,550
Location
Cleveland, Ohio
One thing that made both Melee and SSB64 interesting was the fact that combos were completely dependent upon the attacker reacting to the situation (from move decay, opponent %, and DI). Taking one part of the equation out to help give "standard" combos puts the Smash series more in line with traditional 2d fighters, which I personally dislike.
The problem is, the more we decrease decay, there's very little point to decreasing it to a certain point. This is what Mookie is saying, plus the fact that the MAIN problem is that in vB the decay system is too strong compared to Melee and Smash 64. Way too strong. That's why we have to tone it down but, when toning it down to 50% decay isn't enough (1/2) and 3/4 (25%) isn't even enough, there's no point in decreasing it any further and we should just get rid of it if all we're doing is the same thing in 3/4 compared to no decay.

vB's system is just too strong and if we tone it down, it's not enough. Just try out 25% decay and then no decay, any differences? Not really. Try 1/2 decay and then 3/4, see the difference? Yes, is it enough of a tone down? No, it's still a really dumb mechanic.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
One thing that made both Melee and SSB64 interesting was the fact that combos were completely dependent upon the attacker reacting to the situation (from move decay, opponent %, and DI). Taking one part of the equation out to help give "standard" combos puts the Smash series more in line with traditional 2d fighters, which I personally dislike.
Decay was in Melee and SSB. We all know that. But this is not the same decay that is in Brawl. The decay in Brawl affects knockback, so it throws a wrench into the mix and makes combos way more convoluted. In Melee, there were set combos, stuff like dair to knee with Falcon, and all sorts of other small setups. The decay system didn't affect combos much at all, and there were combos and setups that worked well regardless of how decayed your moves were.

Messing with knockback is much, much worse. One has to keep tabs on their opponents percent as well as the staleness of their moves. It makes reliable setups very situational because the decay is too much. Even if you halved the decay in Brawl, it would have a noticeable impact on how the game is played. The very fact that most people prefer the 3/4th code proves to me that people don't really want decay, they just don't have the guts to trash a terrible game mechanic.

If you want combos that aren't preset then that still exists without decay. DI is HUGE in Brawl. Against a smart opponent you won't be able to land "preset" combos cause they can work their way out of it. This makes sense and adds depth to the game. A mechanic that forces ridiculous restrictions on the moves you use, makes combos more convoluted, and ultimately was put into place because they suck at making every move usable is not something that adds depth to the game. It's a restriction without any real purpose other than to make things harder than they should be.
Move decay makes it harder for someone to get 4 stocked
This is a terrible point. Tripping makes it harder for someone to get 4 stocked too. Also, decay doesn't "tighten" up matches, the lack of decay does. It makes everything make sense and not dependent on too many variables.
It's meant to penalize players who are gaining a lead by using powerful moves and not dying.
If you are losing because of a few moves being spammed you don't deserve to win.
 
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