COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[izzy24]

im looking at my code manager now and it doesn't show it. In the merger code it shows Triple jump fix
Lagless ledges, Halve aerial lag.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I personally think the Trainer should be kept as is with the option to separate from the trainer, whether it be holding Shield or using the CSS.

The general consensus over at the P.Trainer boards (though response has been minimal at best) is to keep the Trainer himself as is, while allowing the Indy PKMN.


On another note; Is there any reason why using the Default Settings Modifier with stock set to 5, I keep getting 3 stock as my default?

Heres the code I'm using:

* 24494A98 80000000
* 20523300 00000000
* 04523300 DEADBEEF
* 42000000 90000000
* 0417F360 00000105
* 0417F364 03000A00
* 0417F368 00000100
* 0417F36C 01000000
* E0000000 80008000

 

[Garde]

First off, I stopped playing Melee competitively in 2005, so I honestly don't know how the meta game progressed beyond that point. Obviously some of the things that I know from experience are obsolete, but that's all I can really go off of, besides match vids.

This does not happen often in Melee at all if people know how to kill. Brawl matches take too long, and it makes it boring to see a match 2 minutes in and the first stock has just been lost.

I don't know what you specifically mean by "Tighten up", but Brawl's decay just slows down matches and makes them more boring to watch/play. It's not fun to have to conserve your kill moves, it's an arbitrary limitation that is very annoying (imo)

Helping the loser is exactly the mindset that created the abomination that is Vanilla Brawl. You should not get benefits from losing.

You may think it's lame to only use "4 moves", but in reality the only reason they refrain from using other moves is because they're not good. Forcing the players to use worse moves does not make for more interesting gameplay.

Good Job, you just took the best and worst characters in the game as an example to say that you need to limit the player.

Eaode, the problem with Brawl that makes matches boring is how it lends to turtling (relying heavily on pokes and shield camping, and almost no combos) and slow game speed, it has almost no direct relation with how long someone survives for (though surviving long in vBrawl is a result of how the game was structured, it is not the quality that makes the game boring). The modifications from Brawl+ make the game fast paced, so if someone survives for 2 minutes, but almost all of those two minutes were packed full of combos, mind games, tricky recoveries, etc., it's not boring but instead suspenseful. Of course, this is my opinion on the matter.

A lot of fighting games actually help the loser. To name a few: Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo's RNG for damage leans in favor of the person with the lower health (if you are at low health, you are more likely to do max damage on a move than someone at full health). Guilty Gear has a "Guts rating" which decreases the damage a character takes the lower they are on health, and damage prorating on combos (every hit beyond the first in a combo gets its damage reduced by a certain %, most fighting games have a combo prorating system). Why is this? It's because seeing someone flat out annihilate another player is not as fun as seeing it come down to a potential upset. Also, I stated that the decay mechanic has a rubber band effect. It helps you catch up by 1 stock, but then puts the player catching up at the same disadvantage their opponent had. It basically gives you a slightly longer chance to work back from a deficit before having to work even harder to keep it close. It's not the "help the loser" mindset that made Brawl an abomination. It's the "let's make this a casual game and take out a lot of the advanced features that made the game deep and interesting" that detracts from vBrawl, at least that is my opinion of the matter.

I also never said that characters or players should be limited. I was just making a point that using a very small number of moves doesn't mean that the player who loses has no skill. In fact, if the match is heavily stacked in your opponent's favor, you might be the better player overall, but you are not good enough to overcome the advantage. It was merely giving a LEGITIMATE example of where a lesser skilled player can overcome a more skilled due to character balance, and was purely in response to the way I read Mookie's statement concerning " if you can't get around someone spamming 4 moves, you don't deserve to win." And actually, I DO agree that if you can't overcome it, you don't deserve to win (you chose a poor character for the match). I just didn't like the connotation I read with it and felt I should provide a legit example of it in action.

I don't know what kind of Melee you've been playing then. It's very uncommon for those types of percentages to occur. Most KOs come from the range you posted yourself about no decay, 60-130%. Sometimes people live for incredibly long periods of time, but that is far from typical, and the same can happen without decay.
It is more significant than in melee, as now there are varying strengths of DI. Moves that send you into tumble in Brawl give you bonus DI strength. I'm not sure if this was in melee or not, but if it was it wasn't nearly as noticeable. The very fact that Kupo and others were thinking about having a DI nerf to make it more like melee should give you an idea between the differences.
I very much disagree with this philosophy. Why should anyone who loses a stock be granted any favors for getting KOed? This is the same concept behind pitty final smashes. No, no no, I don't think the person who lost a stock deserves any sort of inherent advantage upon respawning. That's crap. That isn't tightening up anything, what it does is serve to help destroy the flow of the match. If someone is on a rampage and doing extremely well, the opponent doesn't deserve a get out of jail free card which makes him more of a threat.
Again, why did the "gap" get there in the first place? It's because he wasn't playing as good as his opponent! There doesn't need to be any hand holding for the person who got KOed, as they already come back with a decent amount of invincibility.

On your last point, Meta is just ridiculously good. The codes make him even better. We are planning to nerf him so he doesn't rock everyone's face off. In any case, Falcon still gets advantages in that matchup having no decay as well, and he sure as hell gets better "overall" against other matchups. Besides, your point is moot. Bad matchups exist. You have to find a way to deal with it. My Mewtwo ate a lot of Marth players back in my day, and it's one of the worse matchups in Melee. I didn't cry about it, I just dealt with it.

I disagree that the decay is similar to the Pity Final Smash. Many Final Smashes are almost guaranteed to kill and are typically not too hard to land. In contrast, it takes considerably more skill to still get a KO without a ridiculously overpowered attack. It's not making you any more capable of KOing them, you need to work just as hard to get a KO as normal, it's just making it harder for them to KO you temporarily. Once you KO them, the tables turn, and you must work hard in order to keep it "even." I think it's perfectly fair. I personally think it gives you a slightly longer time to adapt, and at the same time, it makes it so you have to adapt or change up tactics more frequently within a single match.

As for Brawl DI... In vBrawl for most stages, even with default decay on, there is a VERY SMALL chance that you will ever live beyond 180%, purely because while DI is technically more effective, the boundaries are so small that there is no hope to not get KOed even with proper DI. That is my problem. In Melee, if you properly DIed, you could live to over 180-260% on a fairly regular basis (not every stock, but usually once per match, which is enough to make for an exciting come back), leaving it up to your ability to recover to determine whether you die or not. In Brawl you're not even given that ability. If you don't die outright, you'll almost always make it back on stage in vBrawl (not considering edge guarding), where in Melee you had to work for it. I admittedly have only played with gravity settings of 1.05 up and 1.1 down, so I don't know what it's like at a more extreme setting. Maybe it does make survivability from DI better, but if the average lifespan is between 60-140% I'm skeptical.

I'm with Mookie here. As someone who frequented the tourney scene and did well, I still don't know what version of melee you are playing

Most deaths would happen between id say 80-140ish with many many more gimps happening earlier on

I didn't say the majority of stocks lasted that long, but it was not a rare occurrence. Did you play against GERM, MikeG, Wes, or some of the other DA crew or DBR crew a lot? I got in a good amount of matches with them, and either them or I (if not both of us) would at least once per match survive into the 180-260% range in 4 stock matches. That's around a 15-25% frequency rate, whereas in Brawl it seems to happen maybe once every few matches.

I honestly don't know when you started, but I quit somewhere between late '04 and early '05, possibly after both of you started really getting into the competitive scene. And yes, I was a member of the MBR up to the point when I quit, so I'm not just pulling **** out of my *** and do have a decent amount of competitive experience.

But honestly, I'm sick of arguing, because it's derailing the thread. So I'll just go along with whatever the standard is and give my feedback accordingly within those constraints.

 

[Stratocaster]

I tested the merged code again and I found it works perfectly on normal stages. However, for some reason on frozen stages dash cancel, lagless ledges, and autocancel aerials don't work.

I have no idea why, but I am 100% confident that this is the case.

Use bowser's bair on a frozen warioware, then a normal stage like battlefield, you'll be sure to find somethings up. Maybe we need to look at the frozen stages code and see how its interacting with the merged code...
This has been stated before, but I just wanted to confirm it, try it yourself.

 

[Dark Sonic]

In Melee, if you properly DIed, you could live to over 180-260% on a fairly regular basis (not every stock, but usually once per match, which is enough to make for an exciting come back)

Who the **** are you playing? Are you thinking of Ganon on dreamland against like... Peach or something (and even then, you should've been gimped long before then).

leaving it up to your ability to recover to determine whether you die or not.

Maybe if your opponent doesn't land any strong attacks and hits you in the wrong direction and completely fails at edgeguarding.

In Brawl you're not even given that ability. If you don't die outright, you'll almost always make it back on stage in vBrawl (not considering edge guarding), where in Melee you had to work for it.

So you admit that you live much...much longer.

I admittedly have only played with gravity settings of 1.05 up and 1.1 down, so I don't know what it's like at a more extreme setting. Maybe it does make survivability from DI better, but if the average lifespan is between 60-140% I'm skeptical.

With Sonic I live past 110% every stock! And I'm a mid weight!

In melee I play Marth. I know what it's like to get gimped at zero, gimp people at zero, fail at killing people until the mid hundreds, and live to the mid hundreds. But on average, I kill people at 60-120% and die at 80-140%. Anytime a Marth lives past 150% people are thinking "WTF Fox! Upthrow uair or something!" It doesn't happen often, or even once a match. The only place where you could say that is common is on Dreamland, which is banned by the players more often than any of the other neutrals (well, maybe Yoshi's story)

I didn't say the majority of stocks lasted that long, but it was not a rare occurrence.

Maybe not in 2005!

Did you play against GERM, MikeG, Wes, or some of the other DA crew or DBR crew a lot? I got in a good amount of matches with them, and either them or I (if not both of us) would at least once per match survive into the 180-260% range in 4 stock matches. That's around a 15-25% frequency rate, whereas in Brawl it seems to happen maybe once every few matches.

YES, actually, I just watched Mike G play 2 days ago. The opponent banned dreamland and he never lived past 160% (and even getting that high was a rare occurance).

I honestly don't know when you started, but I quit somewhere between late '04 and early '05, possibly after both of you started really getting into the competitive scene. And yes, I was a member of the MBR up to the point when I quit, so I'm not just pulling **** out of my *** and do have a decent amount of competitive experience.

Only it's quite possibly invalid since people got better at the game. They got more daring with off stage edgeguards, they got better at timing edgeguards against recoveries (lightshield edgehog->nair with Peach? WTF?)

It is seriously a very, very rare occurance for people to live to those percentages. Maybe it's just that most people are playing high tier characters, which are typically better at killing (though there were a few mid tiers, low tiers, and even bottom tiers at Tipped Off 4). Maybe people started sweetspotting more attacks so they're killing sooner. Maybe people just learned how to actually combo into kill moves so they can get kills with relatively safe and spammable setups (Falcons throwing out Knees with pretty much zero punishment).

 

[kupo15]

stuff

A decay system kinda makes more sense in the traditional fighters since your combos are memorized that work all the time. In smash, you always need to adjust DI to continue to combo and always change your strategy with teching and the environment so in that sense you can't compare traditional fighters to smash

 

[MookieRah]

I tested the merged code again and I found it works perfectly on normal stages. However, for some reason on frozen stages dash cancel, lagless ledges, and autocancel aerials don't work.

This MAKES sense, because my codes started working properly AFTER I switched to my own stage freeze/reverse code!

First off, I stopped playing Melee competitively in 2005, so I honestly don't know how the meta game progressed beyond that point.

Matches still didn't last that long and people still didn't routinely survive to the percents you posted then. Seriously, at no point in Melee history was it routine for people to break 200%, which is basically part of what you were saying.

Why is this? It's because seeing someone flat out annihilate another player is not as fun as seeing it come down to a potential upset.

Fun doesn't matter in competitive play. There is no reason to help out someone who is playing poorly. The snap back when the person lost the KO is not any better, as like I have stated, it totally ****s the flow of the match.

In fact, if the match is heavily stacked in your opponent's favor, you might be the better player overall, but you are not good enough to overcome the advantage.

I really doubt that adding in decay will make bad matchups better. In fact in most cases I would say it makes it worse.

In Melee, if you properly DIed, you could live to over 180-260%

Yeah, still not with you on anything above 200%. 180? Yeah, occasionally. 260? That's far, far, far from common. Also, THIS ISN'T MELEE. I hate to say this, as I'm trying to incorporate many Melee features back into Brawl, but we can't make this game just to be like Melee. I think decay is bork, many people agree with me, and I'm backing it up with some good logic. Decay would, in my opinion, make Brawl+ worse rather than better and it should be tossed, unless there is a code that takes away the knockback portion from the staleness.

I disagree that the decay is similar to the Pity Final Smash. Many Final Smashes are almost guaranteed to kill and are typically not too hard to land.

That wasn't my point. I said it's the same "concept" behind the pity final smash, which is to reward the player who is losing.

In vBrawl for most stages, even with default decay on, there is a VERY SMALL chance that you will ever live beyond 180%, purely because while DI is technically more effective

BS. I have survived at ******** percents regularly in Brawl because of decay, DI, and the fact that what you are saying is completely wrong. There is FAR more area to cover in brawl before you hit the blast zone than in Melee. In Melee you go flying off and "BOOM" in Brawl you DI up and come back until you have ******** percents.

Did you play against GERM, MikeG, Wes, or some of the other DA crew or DBR crew a lot?

I played MikeG a lot. My crew took him to Getting School'd 2 in Maryland (we went from Tupelo, MS to Atlanta, and all the way to Maryland.) I also was pretty close with all the peepz from the Atlanta scene back in my day. I've stayed at MikeG's place and commented on his stove that transformed and his LCD microwave. Still, it was still extremely rare for him to survive to those percents. He would tank like a mofo, but the percents you are talking about is absurd.

I honestly don't know when you started, but I quit somewhere between late '04 and early '05, possibly after both of you started really getting into the competitive scene. And yes, I was a member of the MBR up to the point when I quit, so I'm not just pulling **** out of my *** and do have a decent amount of competitive experience.

Studies have shown that memories are unreliable, especially the longer you have to change them in your head.

 

[plasmatorture]

I tested the merged code again and I found it works perfectly on normal stages. However, for some reason on frozen stages dash cancel, lagless ledges, and autocancel aerials don't work.

I have no idea why, but I am 100% confident that this is the case.

Use bowser's bair on a frozen warioware, then a normal stage like battlefield, you'll be sure to find somethings up. Maybe we need to look at the frozen stages code and see how its interacting with the merged code...
This has been stated before, but I just wanted to confirm it, try it yourself.

I'm 99% confident it works fine on Reversed Warioware and Reversed PS2. Are yours frozen or reversed?

 

[kupo15]

im using the first merged code and it works on my reversed

Does anyone know why this doesn't set stock to 4?

24494A98 80000000
20523300 00000000
04523300 DEADBEEF
42000000 90000000
0417F360 00000104
0417F364 03000A00
0417F368 08010101
0417F36C 01000000
E0000000 80008000

 

[Steeler]

I personally think the Trainer should be kept as is with the option to separate from the trainer, whether it be holding Shield or using the CSS.

The general consensus over at the P.Trainer boards (though response has been minimal at best) is to keep the Trainer himself as is, while allowing the Indy PKMN.

Have Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard individual option, which means no stamina and no forced switch. I assume these indie pokemon also have the useless Down B move. IF SO...

Pokemon Trainer should have choice between forced switch or not, since i assume Down B is left as is. Maybe some players don't want to switch after each death but still want to switch after killing the opponent or something. Personally I want to switch after death when I'm using the team, because it's a hassle to switch otherwise. Stamina on PT is still unnecessary, but not a big deal. But for Brawl+, i'd say take stamina off in all situations, because it's a very dumb mechanic that encourages stalling and gayness.

If you want to save as much space as possible, indie pokes with no switch/stamina and PT left alone is perfectly fine imo. PT as a team kind of needs forced switch, imo. stamina is annoying and could be taken out, but it's not as big a deal as it is on indie pokes.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I'm having a similar issue Kupo. I'm trying to set mine to 5, but it keeps coming up 3. I even tried setting it to 7 just incase it was come kinda of "wanted value +2" issue, but that still got me 3 stock default.

 

[dgameman1]

I'm having a similar issue Kupo. I'm trying to set mine to 5, but it keeps coming up 3. I even tried setting it to 7 just incase it was come kinda of "wanted value +2" issue, but that still got me 3 stock default.

Faulty code FTL

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

I've figured out the problem Kupo, the YY value is only for setting the default time for Time and Coin matches. The value (03) to the left of GG is the default stock value. I changed the 03 to 05 and now I've got my default match settings on 5 stock.

 

[dgameman1]

24494A98 80000000
20523300 00000000
04523300 DEADBEEF
42000000 90000000
0417F360 00000100
0417F364 04000A00
0417F368 07000101
0417F36C 01000000
E0000000 80008000

that would give me 4 stock with ulimited time for coin and time matches?

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Yes it would.

 

[dgameman1]

Is the code actually supposed to say "DEADBEEF" lol?

 

[kupo15]

great thanks for that. I edited it

 

[Dan_X]

SO wait, has the issue with ALC, lagless edges etc. been figured out with speed modified maps using the merged code? I haven't tested.. but if I used the code I've been using for freezing levels / reversing them would everything work okay?

 

[Alopex]

*sigh*

Here I go again bringing up the same points about the PT I've already brought up but apparently no one has read.

The only person to provide any sort of counter-argument was Almas, and his was entirely about line limitations, not balance.

So, talking strictly balance, let's go again:

imo we should keep the auto switch mechanic for PT, offer the ability to play independent pokemon, and whether the no stamina code is implemented or not doesn't really matter to me. It's a small buff and isn't going to break the character by any means, so we might as well if we have the room.

I personally think the Trainer should be kept as is with the option to separate from the trainer, whether it be holding Shield or using the CSS.

The general consensus over at the P.Trainer boards (though response has been minimal at best) is to keep the Trainer himself as is, while allowing the Indy PKMN.

Once again, I'm going to quote myself, like I've done 2 times in this thread already:

I still prefer the PW codes.

I mean, what exactly does the Regular PT have that Zelda/Sheik don't have that justifies the Regular PT needing fatigue for balance? One more character choice? What a misconception.

The tally of Regular PT drawbacks is huge. Removing fatigue and allowing switching is actually what balances the character to the Zelda/Sheik level.

-Zelda/Sheik maintain respawn invincibility after transformation, allowing safe transformation post stock loss. PT can't swap until after invincibility is gone.
-Zelda/Sheik can transform in the air, allowing for vastly safer transform options compared to the PT's extremely punishable ground-restricted swap.
-The PT is forced to swap upon lost stock, potentially forcing a terrible match-up. Not so for Zelda/Sheik.
-The PT has fatigue.

That's the PT. Why would we want to keep that character like that?
PW's codes remove the last two issues on that list, making the character exponentially more viable, while still keeping the first two drawbacks in order to balance out the fact that the character is 3 fighters. And in the process it allows individual Pokemon use as well if you never swap.

How can anyone justify keeping that original PT, with those 4 huge drawbacks, as a "balance choice"?

PW's codes are the ideal PT codes. I really don't see why it's not just made standard and end the story.

And as a follow-up:

Once again, given the PT's extremely limited transformation options, what is so dangerous about No Swap on Death?

What's so scary about the PT that warrants he keeps 3/4 of the above drawbacks?

Even in an advantageous match, you lose a life. But with the PT, if he is winning the match with Squirtle and then loses a stock, the one stock will have changed the entire match, possibly putting the opponent in an advantage situation.
No other character has to deal with losing their match-up advantage after 1 death.
Why is it balanced to force it upon the PT?

It's incredibly hard to switch in the middle of a fight in Brawl and it's near impossible in Brawl+ since the game is much faster while the transformation time remains ridiculously slow. The first 2 drawbacks on the PT make him a sitting duck of switching, so once a stock is lost and the advantage is switched, rapidly switching to go back to the advantageous match-up is just not realistic.

Using all 3 Pokemon "on the fly" is just not going to happen. So I need to know what is so "balancing" about the auto-swap on death, please.

Not to say that switching won't be possible or viable. But the first 2 drawbacks will make switching take planning. The best PT players will create switching opportunities and that in and of itself will take skill and planning. They'll either work hard for the switch, or work hard for the kill because after killing the opponent is the safest time to switch.
How can this not sound appealing to everyone? We keep the PT's 3 characters in check by making switching take skill, instead of keeping them in check by forcing some bogus forced swap...

Have Squirtle/Ivysaur/Charizard individual option, which means no stamina and no forced switch. I assume these indie pokemon also have the useless Down B move. IF SO...

Pokemon Trainer should have choice between forced switch or not, since i assume Down B is left as is. Maybe some players don't want to switch after each death but still want to switch after killing the opponent or something. Personally I want to switch after death when I'm using the team, because it's a hassle to switch otherwise. Stamina on PT is still unnecessary, but not a big deal. But for Brawl+, i'd say take stamina off in all situations, because it's a very dumb mechanic that encourages stalling and gayness.

If you want to save as much space as possible, indie pokes with no switch/stamina and PT left alone is perfectly fine imo. PT as a team kind of needs forced switch, imo. stamina is annoying and could be taken out, but it's not as big a deal as it is on indie pokes.

First, read above.

Second, dying is the safest way to swap. IN BRAWL.
Why? Because the PT sucks in Brawl and the Pokemon are almost always fatigued before they can land a kill. Without fatigue, the PT's Pokemon gain killing power, that means their safest way to swap is now killing their opponent. Since they can now actually do that, there's no need to rely on the auto-swap like you did in Brawl. It's an archaic strategy which we should make obsolete.

Think about it, instead of planning and working for the switch or the kill, you just wait until you die and try to make the best of it?

Come on...


No Fatigue + No Swap = Indep Pokemon + PT

The only difference is whether or not you like to use the DownB or not.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

got fresh videos?

 

[dgameman1]

Would this code work??

0668310C 00000030
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800014 94A30004
3B7B0001 2C1B0032
4180FFE8 48000038
04690338 48000068
066900d8 00000008
2c170028 41820168
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 0000002A
1626131F 12111A15
22201808 06011004
24170D25 090E0C07
0F210019 0B03271B
1D1C1E05 0223140A

 

[Dan_X]

*Insert lots of stuff here*

I understand your points. Though, I still think that it'd be perfectly fine to have both a REGULAR PT and independent pokemon with inf. stamina.

Please don't quote yourself AGAIN... I've already read it a few times...

You mention Zelda and Sheik, but the thing is, they don't really relate as much as you think. Zelda and Sheik weren't specifically designed with a huge overlying thought of trade offs. It was never intended that a player would HAVE to switch to be successful. It's always been an option for sure, and yes, there are trade offs, but they're still not designed with the same intentions as the PT.

The PT was uniquely designed to resemble it's core thought. Pokemon is all about weakness, strengths, and switching out pokemon to reflect the challenge that arises, and honestly, that's exactly what they've implemented with the PT. I'm not going to deny for a moment that the stamina limit and swapping have made it difficult for PT, heck, in vanilla Brawl I'd say it was a huge problem. The thing is, this is Brawl+. Without damage decay, the PT will be able to kill more easily, even with a limited stamina. In addition, let's not forget the many things that Brawl+ has brought to the table that the PT can utilize. Hitstun immediately makes the PT more viable because any one of the pokemon can combo, heck even Charizard can be a menacing foe with hitstun. In addition, once stamina has run out it may actually HELP the PT, thanks to the many wonderful codes that encompass Brawl+. For example, less stamina = less knockback/damage, this will do nothing more than make it more EASY to combo. Even with decreased knockback and damage you should be able to do quite well comboing the enemy. At high percents, you'll likely be able to finish them with your combo, or knock them back far enough to switch. ALC means that any aerial that was not safe before is a more viable option.

Basically my point is, PT is already FAR more viable in Brawl+. There is no need for him to have inf stamina, especially when we consider that this ruins the uniqueness that defines the PT. With no stamina there would be a far lessened need to switch your pokemon-- which again defeats the purpose. However, if a player wanted to main one of said pokemon, they could use a CSS code, or any independent pokemon code and whalaa, a fully realized character, a selectable pokemon with no stamina problems and can't switch. I do think that the inf stamina should be combined with independent pokemon for this reason.

I think many of the points that you've arrived at have been largely based on how the PT plays in vanilaa Brawl+. When we consider the fact that he is already FAR more viable in Brawl+, even without the stamina code, I don't see a reason to change him further. If anything, I think an independent pokemon code would be the best of both worlds, and would add an interesting depth to the game. There would be people who mained PT, and others who mained a solo pokemon. Again, you have to realize that PT isn't necessarily at a disadvantage at all, as he has the option to select any of his pokemon.

PT Pokemon:
Squirtle: Fast, weaker, really agile, nice ATs
Ivysaur: With no sweetspotting, his recover is actually good, because it's actually "safer" than many other characters now. In addition, he's the more "medium" of the pokemon. Stronger than squirtly, slower, but not nearly as strong as Charizard.
Charizard: Strongest of the three, can fly, good aerials, great finisher. -- slowest of the 3
Needless to say, each of the three above can also combo... hitstun does wonders for them and every other character in the game.

Zelda and Shiek were simply NOT DESIGNED LIKE THIS. They were NOT SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED WITH DISTINCT TRADE OFFS-- as seen with the pokemon.

Since you're into equations...

No Fatigue + No Swap = Indep Pokemon -PT uniqueness.

 

[Shell]

Uhhhh...

Sheik is a combo-monster with few kill options

Zelda is a killing machine with few combo options

Seems like a distinct trade off to me.

 

[kupo15]

Uhhhh...

Sheik is a combo-monster with few kill options

Zelda is a killing machine with few combo options

Seems like a distinct trade off to me.

zelda has good combos what are you talking about lol

 

[Shell]

Well, that was vBrawl, I admit. Now sheik can kill easier and Zelda can combo easier. Regardless, I disagree with there not being distinct trade offs.

Edit: I also think that PT at least deserves infinite stamina. To me, it's the exact same faulty logic as move decay: you should want to switch to do the advantages of each pokemon, not be hindered into it.

 

[Wario_man]

I don't know if anyone has put this forward and I hope tihs is the first place but I think Link needs more power and/or knockback in his attacks. He's heavy and slow and needs much more power than what he has.

 

[Wario_man]

Oh, sorry for the double post, but I think also that his up and b on the ground should be full power all the time, without the need to charge, just like it used to be. Same goes for Toon Link.

 

[Alopex]

Orca, your entire post deals with only one aspect: uniqueness.

What you're saying boils down to "It's better to keep uniqueness than to keep balance".

I say this because I detailed the balance issues in my previous post, and you have addressed none of them. Instead, you chose to address the "issue" of uniqueness.

You haven't addressed how stamina makes the PT BALANCED. You've only mentioned how it makes him unique. That's irrelevant.

You're trying to uphold a concept for the sake of a concept and in doing so you're skipping over the question of balance.

Your post kept dancing around the issue. You kept saying "PT's fine, he's more viable, he can combo, keep the stamina so he's still unique", but you never once detailed your reasoning as to why you think stamina is a balanced mechanic.

My guess is that you did that because you know it's NOT balanced. It's a gimmick.

A gimmick is not worth keeping over proper balance. And I've detailed the balance concerns. Ideally, I'd be interested in seeing your responses to those specific points I made before, because they still stand.

It doesn't matter what the PT gains with Brawl+, every other character also gains it. I've explicitly detailed why the character is not broken by No Stamina and No Auto Swap and how he actually NEEDS those codes - you have not addressed those points.

You mentioned the "intention" for the PT. How he was "intended" to be played. If we were to stick to what was intended by Sakurai, this project wouldn't exist. What was "intended" does not matter here.

Balance > Concept

Also, as a Zelda/Sheik main in Vanilla, I can tell you that those characters were indeed made to be synergistic. Every Sheik or Zelda main will tell you how crucial and important it is to have a good mastery of both characters. You can even see it in the Zelda and Sheik boards - all their guides detail the synergy and the importance of transforming.

Also, I get the feeling you aren't that familiar with Vanilla PT. No offense meant, but you said "even Charizard can be a menacing foe with hitstun". Anyone who's had a lot of experience with Vanilla PT will tell you that Charizard is by far the best of the PT's Pokemon. He's already a menacing foe. Or at least he would be without stamina and forced swap.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Would this code work??

0668310C 00000030
387E006C 3B600000
3C808068 38840DE0
7CBB20AE 7CA50775
41800014 94A30004
3B7B0001 2C1B0032
4180FFE8 48000038
04690338 48000068
066900d8 00000008
2c170028 41820168
02680DE0 0022FFFF
06680DE0 0000002A
1626131F 12111A15
22201808 06011004
24170D25 090E0C07
0F210019 0B03271B
1D1C1E05 0223140A

What is that code supposed to do exactly?

I don't know if anyone has put this forward and I hope tihs is the first place but I think Link needs more power and/or knockback in his attacks. He's heavy and slow and needs much more power than what he has.

We're not to up to the point of discussing character specific stuff at the moment (except for P.Trainer. He's a special case). Tweaking Link's power has been put forward, maybe using stickers as a base, but that's a while away. Stay tuned.

 

[Dan_X]

Uhhhh...

Sheik is a combo-monster with few kill options

Zelda is a killing machine with few combo options

Seems like a distinct trade off to me.

I didn't intend to imply that there are NO trade offs between Zelda and Sheik, obviously there are. Any two characters have trade offs after all. You're simply trying to find a fallacy in what I've said and turn it against me, when you've failed to recognize my main point.

Sure there are "trade offs" to Zelda and Sheik, but they were not designed in such a way that they need to switch out to be successful. The PT is MORE diverse in that he has three characters in one. Each of said three characters are suppose to specifically exemplify three very different roles. Quick and weak, medium and more powerful, slow and very powerful. It's catered to replicate what pokemon is actually about, perhaps you've played it? If you understood this notion, and if you knew what pokemon is (I do.. I beat the elite four) then you'd understand that the way the PT is as of now is unique, adding independent pokemon will only add to the beauty of things--- while adding to uniqueness.

In short, you're failing to recognize that PT is designed in such a way that the pokemon are dependent of eachother to be successful, this "dependency" is what makes PT unique. Can you honestly say that Zelda and Shiek share this dependency? If you say yes to that, can you honestly say that they share said dependency with the same level of intimacy as the PT pokemon do? I for one am a Sheik main. Guess how often I used Zelda? Never.

EDIT:
@Alopex, somehow I didn't notice there was a page 304 at the time of writing this, so I didn't respond to you initially. I'll do so in brief because I have class 2morrow and it's 3am. Don't fix something that isn't broken. In VB, sure, PT's stamina / switch was pretty broken. Can you prove that stamina and switching break PT in Brawl+? You're basing this off of VB-- a far different game than Brawl+. I don't need to address all of your points, they're based largely on VB limitations. The fact that hitstun and other such codes helps every character is irrelevant. Whoever is better at mindgames / comboing will have the upper hand. I've already pointed out how stamina may actually aid comboing as knockback is decreased. Yet you fail to recognize... everything you continue to say is based off of VB.

I speak of uniqueness for a reason. What's the point of stamina? Is it to piss people off? Is it a crappy mechanic? It may not be the best mechanic in the world, but it does what it has set out to do. It has forced the PT to use each of the pokemon in a given fight as each of them are depended upon one another.

Show me some legit videos of PT in Brawl+ (with no PT codes) that relay your points... As it stands, I still say why fix it if it's not broken?

 

[Alopex]

While I wait for your response to my previous posts, Orca, let me respond to that last one.

Once again you are drawing on the notion of uniqueness over balance.

There is no dependency between the Pokemon. The very fact that independent Pokemon are entirely viable stand-alone characters (with the Indep code) shatters that thought.

You're trying to force a dependency through stamina. A dependency that would not exist and does not need to exist otherwise.
That's what Sakurai tried to do and it's clearly broken.

You keep saying words like "intended" when this is BRAWL PLUS. Nothing here is as it was "intended" but EVERYTHING here is better. Why should we be conservative about the PT when it's not promoting balance, but gimmick?

You're losing sight of what's balanced because you're favouring some idealistic view of the PT as an accurate representation of the series. I'm sorry, but this isn't Pokemon. We need to look at what's best for the charactere HERE, in Smash. And balance is the answer to that.

Uniqueness comes from moveset, not gimmick. Lucario just got lucky.

 

[SketchHurricane]

There is no dependency between the Pokemon. The very fact that independent Pokemon are entirely viable stand-alone characters (with the Indep code) shatters that thought.

I'm going to have to agree with this.

PT's advantage in the three-character option is basically that you always have a chance to overcome a counter pick by changing the match-up mid game. This advantage is already balanced by the forced switch on death, which guarantees (baring a three stock) that you are eventually put back into the situation you were trying to avoid. This balance is maintained by the fact that the switch itself carries the stipulation of careful planning, least you are left wide open for punishment. In other words, you can only circumvent the weakness of the forced switch through careful planning, which is exactly what overcoming any weakness for any character should entail.

The stamina is where the concept breaks down. It's not hard to see that the pokemon were designed as independent characters with their own sets of strengths and weaknesses. What we have are three balanced characters, tied together by a forced and/or optional switch mechanic. This and only this is what makes PT unique. Stamina, on the other hand, is a completely tacked on gimmick to an already balanced situation. The result is that you are basically penalized for doing well with just one pokemon! Let me say that one more time: you are being punished for doing well by staying alive.

The entire strategy of PT revolves around planning your switches to maximize time on your best match-up while minimizing time on your worst match-up. The stamina system completely ruins the reward of finding the best match-up and consequently doing well by penalizing your ability to stay alive with a timer.

 

[Alopex]

Sketch gets a QFT.

Orca, I'm sorry but you can't demand videos from me when you have no videos to present yourself. No one is playing the PT in Brawl+, everyone is playing Indep Pokemon. There's a reason for that.

Sketch just explained very well how exactly stamina is complete nonsense. You've only explained how stamina makes the PT unique.

I equate that kind of uniqueness to this:

I'll restate it: Uniqueness comes from the movesets, not from the gimmicks.


.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Alright, all the points have been made, I won't bother making a long post to prove my opinion (thank you for stealing my thunder, SketchHurricane and Alopex).

Pokemon trainer should have no stamina, and should be able to switch pokemon (though No Swap on death is necessary). If each Pokemon started out a little overpowered I'd think differently, but they simply aren't.

Brawl+ to me is all about giving characters options and making each character viable.

 

[Alopex]

I'm thinking that creating a "Hold Shield for No Swap on Death" code would be the most ideal situation here.

If would effectively allow 5 different playstyles for the PT, all of which are completely viable:

1) PT with No Swap
2) PT with Auto-swap
3) Squirtle only
4) Ivysaur only
5) Charizard only

Some people like Auto-swap. Some people hate it. No one likes stamina (except Orca).

 

[CyberGlitch]

Ideally, the CSS would feature Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle, choosing them would cause no swap. PT would also be in the selection, choosing him would turn on swap on death.

 

[cooler1339]

Jiggly and Pikachu don't have no trainer. Just make them all wild :D. My cousin gave up on PT because he couldn't use just Charizard.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Ideally, the CSS would feature Charizard, Ivysaur, and Squirtle, choosing them would cause no swap. PT would also be in the selection, choosing him would turn on swap on death.

If I'm reading that correctly, you're suggesting that selecting the individual Pokemon on the CSS should give you the Trainer with the Pokemon you chose as your starter with the No Auto-Swap code active?

 

[Alopex]

Jiggly and Pikachu don't have no trainer. Just make them all wild :D. My cousin gave up on PT because he couldn't use just Charizard.

Well, I think it's important to keep the transformation aspect.

I'm interested in the PT for the same reason I'm interested in Zelda/Sheik: the transformation.

Not being able to do so would remove a lot of the appeal for me.

If I'm reading that correctly, you're suggesting that selecting the individual Pokemon on the CSS should give you the Trainer with the Pokemon you chose as your starter with the No Auto-Swap code active?

I don't know if that's what he was suggesting, but MAN that would be SOOOO ideal for me. You have no idea. It's all I want in life.

 

[WeirdoZ Inc.]

Ok, before we start clogging up this thread about P.Trainer, I suggest moving the discussion over to a thread I made last year that was MEANT to discuss this, but pretty much nobody on the P.Trainer board did any discussion.

The thread can be found here: [Link]

It is a fairly important discussion since we have the means, just no consensus yet. Just a few points of view and an argument.

An alternative, I guess, is to make the exact same topic over here in the General Boards.

So which will it be?