COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[VietGeek]

About that: What was the reasoning behind Falco's laser cap? From a distance, couldnt one Spot Dodge/PS (especially should we get a reflecting property attached to it)/SHAD to avoid them? Also, what would be the ideal range for this cap to cut his lasers off at?

I never knew personally. One day I was browsing this thread and "Cap Falco's Lasers" was added. Really spotdodges and stuff don't really do much (sure you don't get hit, but Falco is basically at frame advantage), since Falco will obviously do lagless lasers and will probably want you to do that stuff. If you do close the gap they can phantasm away or whatever, and of course we all know Falco's combo game is by no means bad. It's also a strong approach that's safer than Marth's fair lest you lean in too much (but it's a projectile, that shouldn't happen lol).

Since when is adding some control to a move that should have been controlable to begin with a buff? Also, I wouldnt exactly consider this a small buff to Fox's game, though it isnt a large one either since it isnt a staple. I believe that it's more of a midground if anything...

A buff is a buff by my understanding. ;P

I guess 50% for the case can be tested, so we can see once and for all if it is OP. If it is, we can always put it back.

All aerials used to be reduced by 50%. The justification in the changelog for his aerials to go to 75% was "to reduce key and case spam that was quite powerful" or something along those lines.

Well to be honest falco is gonna benefit more from SHl than Diable lasers, but his lasers can be avoided. You gotta remember lasers don't kill, smash attacks do, idk what stage ya'll think diable lasers is viable on, i only seeing FD, maybe smashville, but platform stages would be a counter pick to them imo.

Well Falco can combo off lasers. Platform stages do some good but it's not the lasers anyone's afraid of, it's the fact that Falco is also a great character that can manipulate platforms well also. He's one of the best characters in the game, with great characteristics for camping (which is why he's dumb in vB) and also a combo monster. That's why I am curious to how it will affect him.

I do admit though, that I am very curious as to how it could affect Falco's game. Time will tell I suppose...

Indeed. We'll just have to see.

 

[kupo15]

Shiek's fair holds nostalgic value for the people that want it, but we are reluctant to give it a buff, lest shiek become OP.

Giving sheik a better slap won't make her OP. Giving her melee slap back will. There is a difference

If a code comes along that gets rid of auto-fastfall aerials, then try to apply it to G&W's key. In exchange, I wish for the entire hitbox to be a meteor, or a good part of it.

If you do that, then you should give all moves that act this way the same properties.

Ganons wiz kick
ZSS dair
TL dair
Gaw dair
ect

 

[DMG]

You guys are getting somewhat close to balancing MK more.

A problem I noticed:

I think it's referred to as MK's Flimsy Armor, where he takes more damage and knockback than other characters. This has actually saved me multiple times from getting combo'd severely, whether it be at 0% from a Kirby Fthrow or past 40% against a Falcon trying to juggle me with Uair or Nair. I think it's good that you guys are trying to make MK have clear weaknesses like low stamina basically, but I'd say it benefits him a little more than it hurts him. I think it would be better to just stick with the extra damage and leave the knockback close to normal on him. That way he still takes more damage than everyone and he's easier to combo for said damage.

I just won a Brawl + tourney today (Which is partly why I am adding input on it), I'm impressed on how far you guys are taking this game. Keep it up.

 

[CountKaiser]

I know, I'm just stating an experiment with G&W to see hw he does with the new key.

Ganon wizkick would seems hard, due to the actually animatiom changing and such. also, Shiek and ZSS dair would probably look weird, too.

 

[shanus]

mario guy, were you using the set with the obvious aerial shuttle loop nerf?

 

[DMG]

mario guy, were you using the set with the obvious aerial shuttle loop nerf?

I think so, I definitely could not gimp Shiken at 40-50% with it usually. So yes I'm fairly positive I was playing one with a nerfed Aerial SL. It also hit him towards me a lot more than before.

I remember playing an older version somewhat recently and it was where I could Dthrow into Dash attack or Fair depending on their DI and then immediately gimp them with Shuttle Loop at like 50% off stage. It was pretty gay lol, I can't gimp them at that low % though (I can still do the combo though).

 

[shanus]

Ah, alright. Any other feedback regarding meta or other chars? Was this your first time playing?

 

[kupo15]

I know, I'm just stating an experiment with G&W to see hw he does with the new key.

Ganon wizkick would seems hard, due to the actually animatiom changing and such. also, Shiek and ZSS dair would probably look weird, too.

If it looks weird people will get over it. The sped up ledges looked weird. I doubt sheik will look weird because of melee and the others have seen a little bit of the new dairs when using them during hitstun in vbrawl. Non plummeting dairs for most of the characters provides more control and options then with it plummeting. Sheik is the obvious one that won't have a garbage dair anymore.

 

[DMG]

Ah, alright. Any other feedback regarding meta or other chars? Was this your first time playing?

I had played an earlier version somewhat recently before Shiken updated it on his Wii, MK was wayyy too good in the earlier version and he's toned down a bit but he's still kinda ridiculous in some areas (Being able to combo with Uair past 100% on Dedede into Shuttle Loop or another Uair for example, or just in general his ability to combo with Uair, Dash Attack, Fair, Dthrow, and his tilts still have so much range that he can safely poke with them just doing one at near maximum range). That and his Dash attack almost always can link into a free Shuttle Loop inescapable.

Some things are kinda silly, like being able to combo ridiculously with some characters dash attacks (MK, Falcon, Ganon I like though lol). I was able to do something like Dthrow into Dash attack into Uair into another Dash attack into Knee as Falcon, and there wasn't much my opponent could do save for maybe extraordinary DI on some parts or maybe having a super light floaty character.

I do like how some attacks were made a lot safer, but some attacks for characters are just too safe. For example, there is little risk in running and using MK's dash attack on someone's shield. MK slides far and with the increased shield stun there is usually little to no room for the opponent to drop their shield and counter attack it. With the increased shield stun, it makes certain pokes much safer on shield, almost too safe.

I'll try to think of what else I remember from today.

 

[alvicala]

If it looks weird people will get over it. The sped up ledges looked weird. I doubt sheik will look weird because of melee and the others have seen a little bit of the new dairs when using them during hitstun in vbrawl. Non plummeting dairs for most of the characters provides more control and options then with it plummeting. Sheik is the obvious one that won't have a garbage dair anymore.

It would be so good to have these dairs not fast falling. Meteors will be much easier and we will have more control over these dairs.

 

[kupo15]

It would be so good to have these dairs not fast falling. Meteors will be much easier and we will have more control over these dairs.

yea so you can freely move around in the dairs instead of being stuck in one position which is very limiting

 

[Sanu]

What's the IRC network and channel for getting the Beta 4.0? I'm about to head to a smashfest, I'd appreciate it ^_^

 

[VietGeek]

What's the IRC network and channel for getting the Beta 4.0? I'm about to head to a smashfest, I'd appreciate it ^_^

* Click the image.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Shiek's fair holds nostalgic value for the people that want it, but we are reluctant to give it a buff, lest shiek become OP.

G&W's fair is a disjointed, powerful sex kick. According to how you want to use it, you wish to use it as an approach. That, to me, seems a bit OP, as the case is ridiculous.

I guess 50% for the case can be tested, so we can see once and for all if it is OP. If it is, we can always put it back.

50% lag F-air has been tested. That's the aerial lag G&W had is the very first Brawlplussery set. No one, to my knowledge, found G&W's Fair to be overpowered with these settings. The reason his aerial lag was increased was because keyspamming was too effective. At that time we didn't have move specific lag codes, or the codespace to apply them, so the Fair had to be a casualty to balance the character with a global aerial lag increase.

Unlike buffing the knockback of Sheik's Fair, this is simply applying the same lag adjustment to G&W's fair as was applied to every other character's Fair (with exception to a few characters who got an even larger lag reduction).

 

[cobaltblue]

This^^

I understand Bowser needed some buffs to get on the same level as Falcon who became viable not because of char spec buffs, but global ones, but Bowser right now is both a tank AND and powerhouse and is buffed beyond viable more than Falcon is. Also, if you see whats being posted in gog's thread and what is being considered, I hope you would rethink your judgment on Falcon buffs. Just look at all the reworking planned for Samus and Ivy and everyone else!! I don't necessarily have a problem with these buffs but the other characters are being buffed past falcon that if this community maintains its level of bias against giving falcon some buffs, he won't even be a threat.

Umm what? I think you quoted the wrong person cause I was talking about the space animals and you guys wanting to alter them when they are already pretty good. While I personally think Falcon does get a lot of attention compared to the other characters I agree he does have to be contently checked on to ensure he does not fall into not being a threat.

As for gog's thread that is more or less throwing crap on the wall and seeing what sticks and looks the most artistic. Good for characters that aren't tournament viable but a bad approach imo for high tiers.

 

[goodoldganon]

I don't understand the hate for Falcon getting buffs. Time will tell if he needs them, but I find him to be quite solid now, though he has a TERRIBLE time breaking through a defensive game.

 

[CountKaiser]

50% lag F-air has been tested. That's the aerial lag G&W had is the very first Brawlplussery set. No one, to my knowledge, found G&W's Fair to be overpowered with these settings. The reason his aerial lag was increased was because keyspamming was too effective. At that time we didn't have move specific lag codes, or the codespace to apply them, so the Fair had to be a casualty to balance the character with a global aerial lag increase.

Unlike buffing the knockback of Sheik's Fair, this is simply applying the same lag adjustment to G&W's fair as was applied to every other character's Fair (with exception to a few characters who got an even larger lag reduction).

According to Shanus, 50% ALR on the fair makes it too powerful as a G&W can spam it and be nigh unstoppable. It's powerful, disjointed, and has crazy range.

Can you provide several instances where fair spam wouldn't work?

 

[Greenpoe]

Giving sheik a better slap won't make her OP. Giving her melee slap back will. There is a difference

If you do that, then you should give all moves that act this way the same properties.

Ganons wiz kick
ZSS dair
TL dair
Gaw dair
ect

I agree that buffing Sheik's fair is not only fair, but deserved.
If we could change Sheik's dair so it wouldn't change her movement, would that really help her? I think I'd rather have less landing lag on her dair than get rid of the faster falling mechanic. At least if the landing lag was cut to be like her other aerials, she could land with it, and continue fighting.

You guys are getting somewhat close to balancing MK more.

A problem I noticed:

I think it's referred to as MK's Flimsy Armor, where he takes more damage and knockback than other characters. This has actually saved me multiple times from getting combo'd severely, whether it be at 0% from a Kirby Fthrow or past 40% against a Falcon trying to juggle me with Uair or Nair. I think it's good that you guys are trying to make MK have clear weaknesses like low stamina basically, but I'd say it benefits him a little more than it hurts him. I think it would be better to just stick with the extra damage and leave the knockback close to normal on him. That way he still takes more damage than everyone and he's easier to combo for said damage.

I just won a Brawl + tourney today (Which is partly why I am adding input on it), I'm impressed on how far you guys are taking this game. Keep it up.

How did the tourney turn out? Was there an entrance fee? How many people attended? Which character won 1st/2nd/3rd?

As for balancing MK, how about adding a some startup and some end-lag to his dash attack,

 

[kupo15]

I agree that buffing Sheik's fair is not only fair, but deserved.
If we could change Sheik's dair so it wouldn't change her movement, would that really help her? I think I'd rather have less landing lag on her dair than get rid of the faster falling mechanic. At least if the landing lag was cut to be like her other aerials, she could land with it, and continue fighting.

Her dair is absolute trash. She has no DI like GaW has, its inefficient, and it lacks control and is very situational. Restoring her dair to any normal dair would be so much better than it is now. If you think about it, it plummets as fast as her FF just about with less control so she would be able to keep about the same speed but be able to control is and FF it when she wants

 

[Greenpoe]

True, but in Melee, wasn't it a terrible move as well due to the slow speed? I'm not saying that it should be made great, but I'm not sure how much the change will help her.

 

[CyberGlitch]

@Greenpoe
Just cause a move was bad in Melee doesn't mean it should be bad. If we can fix a move we should do so. Currently she doesn't have aerial moves with hitboxes she can use on approaches. Of course removing the autofall on the move would improve her capabilities.

@Kupo
In an earlier post you asked me why I thought Fox and Falco shouldn't get DIable lasers. Basically, my argument is that they have speed to make up for their lack of DI, and the other characters with projectiles don't have this speed. Fox is uniquely campy? I enjoy his aggressive capabilities a bit better. To be honest, DIable lasers with Fox wouldn't bother me too much...though I'd hate to see him become character dependent on campy tactics. It's Falco's lasers that scare me. They are clearly the most effective projectile in the game. Improving his approach and retreat with them will make him overpowered against a certain portion of the cast (I mainly worry about the slower moving characters).

@CountKaiser
I would cite years of experience with his Fair in Melee to show how it isn't overpowered with slightly less lag.
His Brawl Fair is a weaker attack, and is not comparable to a sex kick. The move doesn't come out as quickly as a sex kick, nor does it have nearly as little landing lag as one. Unlike a sex kick, it only faces forward. It can be powershielded for great punishment, dodged and punished, really you just have to get above the move and you're fine, given Brawl's different dodging system I've found it even easier to punish. Many characters can just shield the move and do a smash afterwards to punish (Marth, Wolf) or a tilt (DK, Bowser, Yoshi). G&W's back air is FAR more OP'd than an adjusted Fair. The move has no landing lag, no need to sweetspot, comes out quicker, far reaching disjointed hitbox, combos into itself.

All I ask is that G&W not sit on the ground for half a second (an exaggeration) after using the move. Make it so he can actually follow up a successfully sweetspotted hit.

 

[Greenpoe]

My point was that Sheik's dair has been historically bad. A slight buff would be nice, but overall, I think the use should be situational, rather than a bread-and-butter move like all her other aerials. Sheik needs a fair buff rather than dair buff.

 

[kupo15]

True, but in Melee, wasn't it a terrible move as well due to the slow speed? I'm not saying that it should be made great, but I'm not sure how much the change will help her.

Sheiks dair was barely used because she had much better moves to replace it with. I've seen it used but rarely because her metagame doesn't revolve around that move but at least she could integrate it if she needed too. Sheik in brawl+ has a harder time doing that

@Kupo
In an earlier post you asked me why I thought Fox and Falco shouldn't get DIable lasers. Basically, my argument is that they have speed to make up for their lack of DI, and the other characters with projectiles don't have this speed. Fox is uniquely campy? I enjoy his aggressive capabilities a bit better. To be honest, DIable lasers with Fox wouldn't bother me too much...though I'd hate to see him become character dependent on campy tactics. It's Falco's lasers that scare me. They are clearly the most effective projectile in the game. Improving his approach and retreat with them will make him overpowered against a certain portion of the cast (I mainly worry about the slower moving characters).
.

Getting DIable lasers won't take away his aggressive quality and make him a campy character, it helps him to be more accurate with his camping game when he needs it. Falco's lasers shouldn't scare you if we implement Powershielding reflection

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Hitbox mod data

Bowser Giga (Play as Giga Bowser out of Bowser) 90 lines
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0205A032 1A3C1E03
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0B0C6400 0000003C
145A000B 00000000
44200140 0B016400
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Byte count ------> "2A8"

This give bowser all giga bowser's attack elements, damage and Knockback

this is totally sweet stuff :D

i love giga bowser :D:D:D:D

who votes for a playable Giga Bowser?

 

[GHNeko]

Manchu before Giga Bowser. :|

 

[jokey665]

Manchu before Giga Bowser. :|

Oh man, if manchu/pikaman became his/its own character, I would totally main him/it.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Some Bowser Giga matches

NAMQ (Bowser Giga) vs BLUN (Squirtle)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRNPxOx5Yl0

NAMQ (Bowser Giga) vs BLUN (Charizard)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyXeOXhNnkQ

NAMQ (Bowser Giga) vs LXIX (Luigi) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KTeznzNBSw

NAMQ (Bowser Giga) vs LXIX (Luigi) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3bdwl5O9TY

this is Brawl+

 

[Teronist09]

Manchu before Giga Bowser. :|

Turtledorf first. The end.

 

[CountKaiser]

@Greenpoe
@CountKaiser
I would cite years of experience with his Fair in Melee to show how it isn't overpowered with slightly less lag.
His Brawl Fair is a weaker attack, and is not comparable to a sex kick. The move doesn't come out as quickly as a sex kick, nor does it have nearly as little landing lag as one. Unlike a sex kick, it only faces forward. It can be powershielded for great punishment, dodged and punished, really you just have to get above the move and you're fine, given Brawl's different dodging system I've found it even easier to punish. Many characters can just shield the move and do a smash afterwards to punish (Marth, Wolf) or a tilt (DK, Bowser, Yoshi). G&W's back air is FAR more OP'd than an adjusted Fair. The move has no landing lag, no need to sweetspot, comes out quicker, far reaching disjointed hitbox, combos into itself.

All I ask is that G&W not sit on the ground for half a second (an exaggeration) after using the move. Make it so he can actually follow up a successfully sweetspotted hit.

Meh, as good as bair is, it's easy to see coming, and therefoe easy to punish. Apparently, most G&W's now try to use nair along with bair to approach.

Though your argument is compelling. I feel Shanus doesn't want the ALR of 50% to the fair because its a buff to what he feels to be a walking fortress of priority and killing potential. I've heard nothing but comlaints about G&W from him, about the key, dtilt, and the case. Oddly enough, no one mentions the spammability of dsmash.

Though the problem with his smashes does bring up an interesting question, how does G&W kill? Rather, how do you kill with him? Does he have a combo tha can link into a killer? How well can he punish with a killer?

Also, just a suggestion, but when possible, can we please do something about G&W's throws? Teching code and tech roll make it nigh impossible to techchase into an upsmash, which a bread and butter technique for G&W killing his opponents. His upthrow is balls, sometimes leading into a nair, but only at really low percents, and the other two are simply slight variations of upthrow, baring opponent DI.

 

[storm92]

Dsmash really is the worst thing about G&W, IMO.
It comes out way too quick for the power it has, and if "sour"spotted (ha) it still has an amazing trajectory for killing.
If we could add some ending lag onto it, that would be great.

 

[Rkey]

Dsmash really is the worst thing about G&W, IMO.
It comes out way too quick for the power it has, and if "sour"spotted (ha) it still has an amazing trajectory for killing.
If we could add some ending lag onto it, that would be great.

I don't like the way we buff everything that's bad and nerf everything that's good. There should still be moves that are better than others I think, I mean G&W killing early and getting killed early is his thing, I don't want to change that.

And I don't want brawl+ to become Mugen

 

[CloneHat]

I don't like the way we buff everything that's bad and nerf everything that's good. There should still be moves that are better than others I think, I mean G&W killing early and getting killed early is his thing, I don't want to change that.

And I don't want brawl+ to become Mugen

Mugen? What does that have to do with anything?

G&W's Dsmash is kinda like Meta Knight's, but STRONGER and has MORE RANGE. A small buff would be nice, in my opinion.

 

[The Cape]

Actually Kaiser I have been arguing about the winddown on all of GW's smashes for months.

Everyone else keeps telling me they are fine and he doesnt need that nerf

I would like to see more of a community opinion on it though.

 

[Greenpoe]

I would support leaving the speed alone, but removing the sweetspot.

 

[Ulevo]

A general accepted rule we have in the WBR is that for any character balances that we intend to go forward with, we should place our focus on only the characters we assume to be at the bottom half of the echelon, or any character not currently presumed to be in a high tier status. This ensures we focus on the characters currently in need of tweaks, while preventing otherwise uneducated or accidental tier modifications to those who are currently perfectly fine. This of course has come in to exception with two characters; Snake and Meta Knight.

We have no intention of modifying any character at high tier or higher unless they meet one of the following criteria:

1) They are proven to be over powered in comparison to the majority of the cast.

2) They distort specific character match ups.


This is not to say we will have no intention of modifying other characters higher on the tier list later on possibly, but for now it isn't in our best interest where maintaining balance is concerned.


That said, G&W is fine as it is right now. Unless you were to argue G&W was not at least high tier, he likely wouldn't change at all.

 

[Rudra]

/vids

I like this. Its a shame that the real Giga couldnt be shrunk and have his invnicibility frames removed (impossible because of no hitstun/tumble animations right?). Then again, with a little texture hacking...I guess he could look like him. =3

this is totally sweet stuff :D

i love giga bowser :D:D:D:D

who votes for a playable Giga Bowser?

I second this (<3 Giga), but for now there are more important stuff to deal with.

 

[trojanpooh]

I say we look into making extra characters activated by either using certain costumes, or by holding 'Z' when selecting, but after Brawl+ goes gold. It would be an awesome update, but it shouldn't be something we are thinking about right now.

 

[shanus]

If G&W is held back because of his ALR, we lower it, easy enough!

 

[CountKaiser]

If G&W is held back because of his ALR, we lower it, easy enough!

While I see yor point, this comment can easily be interpreted incorrectly. It could be seen that you arenerfing the top teir characters just because their top tier. If said nerf holds them back, you will buff them again.

Problem with this is that because they're so good, it won't hold them back. It simply makes them slightly worse.

Youcan use this statement to easily nerf a top tier down to the bottom of high, and have it justified, even when said top tier did not warrant a nerf.

Anyway, since we have the ability, can't you simply apply ALR to individual aerials?

I did the math. Orriginally, the fair had 22 frames of lag to it.

22 * 0.5 = 11

11, according the the B+ Broom, is OP. So they increase the multilier to 0.75

22 * 0.75 = 16.5

And I'm assuming the game round up, so that would be 17 frames. A substantial amount more than the previous, OP amount.

Why don't we try 63% ALR?

22 * 0.63 = 13.86, which would round up to 14.

That seems a bit more reasonable.

 

[Finns7]

I think gaw does need some for of a nerf, saying he dies early and kills early doesnt cut it imo. He is like meta but more powerful, he is small, can combo and can kill at rediculous percents. He has a great recovery and also can gimp. more lag on certain smashes is not a bad idea.