• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
No, I am not posting to prolong the drama. If you got things sorted out with Thinkaman and AA, great. I'm posting this to correct certain massively incorrect points that ColinJF has taken the liberty of making.

PART 1: A STORY
Great work on that data. Great work on the analysis. I love what you did, I respect your work, and I hope that you realize that despite your data, you did not make the code.

There is a difference between doing the research for a project, and creating the end product of a project. How often do you see the names of people involved in the research teams of big projects? How often do you see the name of the main scientist who presents the end result of those big projects?

The point here is simple: you were not credited because you did the research. The coder is credited. Call it unfair, call it terrible if you will, but that is the law of the world and nothing you say will change it.

Also, it's not hypocrisy, considering that the point here is that a coder did not receive credit, and your "hypocrisy" point is based off the premise that researchers deserve as much credit as coders.

PART 2: BUT IT'S MINE
Not to be mean or anything, but my entire point was that code is owned by the coder legally. I don't particularly care about your ideas, or the fact that you seem to want to try to twist things to warp them into a form they were never meant to be.

Put it this way: a random letter generator, left going, will eventually generate one of Shakespeare's sonnets. YOUR argument is based on the idea that Shakespeare owns that random number generator. Show me somebody who thinks he does, and I'll show you an idiot. Show me somebody who thinks Shakespeare DOESN'T own the rights to his sonnet, and I'll show you another idiot.

Fact is, Shakespeare's sonnets are specific things in a specific language with a specific meaning with a specific presentation in a specific format. Codes are a specific thing created for a specific purpose to change a specific game in a specific format. Trying to bypass the "specific" parts is stupid. I can just as easily convert one of Heinlein's short stories to binary and match that string with a specific atomic arrangement in my coffee table. You're trying to prove that Heinlein doesn't own his stories because he doesn't own my coffee table. I'm proving that my coffee table has no relation to Heinlein simply because you tried to intentionally pull up situational evidence that can be linked to Heinlein in a roundabout and ******** way.

Codes are property of the coder. The coder is not entitled to copyrights concerning that code, nor is he entitled to intellectual property rights as far as legal rights go, but the fact remains that the coder was the creator of the code and as such is the owner.

Oh, and interesting thing of note: "Property" refers to quite a lot more than tangible physical items in your possession. This isn't the 1920s anymore.

PART 3: “REVERSE ENGINEERING”
Despite your beautifully done (sarcasm alert) masking of the central point in a series of semantics, wordplay, and failure to actually address the point, the fact remains that what Thinkaman did is "reverse engineering". Extracting specific information from a format in which information is unable to be directly extracted is called reverse engineering. "Indirectly extracting" specific information from a format in which information is unable to be directly extracted is called reverse engineering. The fact is, Thinkaman reverse engineered it. Extracting it from a gct file is reverse engineering.

GCT files do not have the information directly given to you. True, as paprika pointed out, it's possible to open them in a hex editor and see the files, but the fact still remains that the information is not directly available. GCT files are meant to be used for a specific purpose. Bin files, for instance, may have the information available, but it's not intended to be available.

Oh, and no, I'm not going to say that what the hackers/modders have done with Brawl is not considered reverse engineering, because we are reverse engineering it. Except that what applies to a commercial, widely-produced product does not apply to coders and homebrew programmers. Reverse engineering a homebrew program that someone did is considered morally bankrupt. Reverse engineering a massive commercial game like MKWii is not considered morally bankrupt.

You ask why? Why is it that it's fine to walk into a friend's house, eat an orange, and walk out, but it's not fine to walk into a grocery store, eat an orange, and walk out? Why is it that it's fine to pick up a penny in someone's house and keep it, but it's not fine to pick up a hundred dollar bill in someone's house and keep it?

Don't attempt to compare two significantly different things. True, what both sides are doing is technically reverse engineering, but there's a reason why technicalities don't comprise the main core of arguments.

PART 4: HOW WOULD YOU FEEL
Remember that an emotional appeal is meant to cater to the masses and is used commonly in arguments. Your personal opinion doesn't really matter; if the emotional appeal doesn't work on you, it doesn't. It works on plenty of other people, because plenty of other people don't publicly release the code for their programs and do not release them freely as far as the idea of "do what you will with it" is concerned.

So you're ok with your code being taken and you being credited. Do realize, however, that not everybody is you.

CONCLUSION

In this essay, I have resolved all of the issues at controversy. I have shown that “code as property” is nonsense, and I have shown that reverse engineering—far from being evil—is part and parcel of this community. Support for property rights dictates that codes can be used in any way whatsoever once they are released.
This isn't a high-school English paper, dear. An ending like that isn't even acceptable in a college-level writing class. For one, you didn't really resolve much. Second, you have shown that ONE aspect of reverse engineering which is commonly condoned is a part of this community, while failing to address the fact that the reverse engineering done by Thinkaman is NOT commonly condoned. Thirdly, I never said that codes couldn't be used in any way you please. I merely said that it was a morally and ethically wrong thing to do. Which it is.
 

Shell

Flute-Fox Only
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
2,042
Arkaether, we've moved past this issue. Please edit out your post and PM it to ColinJF.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
Paprika, Shell, I'm not going back to the issue. I'm pointing out logical fallacies in Colin's argument since quite a few people seem to regard his post as, well, logically sound. As I said, I have no intention of prolonging the argument. If you've got things sorted out with Thinkaman and AA, great.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko


Now that, that is all said and done. Shut up Ark before I start reporting posts. Take it to PMs you asian you.


EDIT: Wtffff ninja'd by shell god **** it.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
Just got around to downloading this. I gotta say I like it.

Ness Up B NOT putting him into a free fall is great.
A few suggestions though.

(If you wouldn't mind)
-The ping sound on the bat is nice touch for sure, but how about increase it's swing speed
-Making PK fire a tad harder to SDI would be a nice touch.
 

zxeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2006
Messages
1,476
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
The bat hits hella hard and has an improved hitbox for better range. One tipper from the bat is all it takes for your opponent to regret blocking your attack.
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
The knockback was increased? It wasn't noted on the Brawlpulsery page. (this greatly pleases me)

Yeah, I suppose it's massive power is nice, but the slow speed really hurts the move.
Also, an interesting thing to note is that it's speed out of charge is also tremendously slow.

Let's take GW. His Fsmash isn't the fastest, but it's speed out of charge is pretty good.



Aside from that, what do you think of my PKF Idea?
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
...Why does PK Fire need to be less SDI able? Increased gravity and low hitlag makes it harder than Brawl to SDI out of. Oh yea. Hitstun too. V:

The kid got massive buffs. Harder SDI on PKF isnt needed imo. .__.
 

BG3

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
294
...Why does PK Fire need to be less SDI able? Increased gravity and low hitlag makes it harder than Brawl to SDI out of. Oh yea. Hitstun too. V:

The kid got massive buffs. Harder SDI on PKF isnt needed imo. .__.
Ness wasn't exactly great in vbrawl, IMO he isn't that great in Brawl+ either.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
Ness wasn't exactly great in vbrawl, IMO he isn't that great in Brawl+ either.
actually with this latest build he feels perfect. he has good combos, reliable kill moves, fairly good b moves (eh...) and a crappy recovery to even him out.

my only problem with him right now is that his uair kills a little too early, but thats more my opinion than anything.
 

GHNeko

Sega Stockholm Syndrome.
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
20,009
Location
テキサス、アメリカ
NNID
GHNeko
Ness wasn't exactly great in vbrawl, IMO he isn't that great in Brawl+ either.
That still doesnt warrent PKF to be harder to SDI when its hard enough as it is and the guy has a plethora of options that would normally be successful option a connecting hit of PKF. :V
 

SketchHurricane

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
669
Location
Winter Park, FL
That still doesnt warrent PKF to be harder to SDI when its hard enough as it is and the guy has a plethora of options that would normally be successful option a connecting hit of PKF. :V
I too disagree that PKF needs to trap more. It already sets up plenty of mindgames when they SDI out...right into your follow ups. It doesn't need to guarantee anything.
 

FrozenHobo

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 26, 2007
Messages
5,272
Location
Nowhere Land
is the glide stop code in this latest build? because when i looked at the txt i had to add it in manually. is there any reason why it wouldn't be included?
 

Wavedash Master

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
322
is the glide stop code in this latest build? because when i looked at the txt i had to add it in manually. is there any reason why it wouldn't be included?
You can't use both the grab jump return code and the glide stop code at the same time yet, so I guess they saw the grab jump return code as more important.
 

kupo15

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
7,002
Location
Playing Melee
You can't use both the grab jump return code and the glide stop code at the same time yet, so I guess they saw the grab jump return code as more important.
You can merge the two codes together and it shouldn't take much time for the skilled hackers we have
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 9, 2008
Messages
3,679
Sorry and GHNeko and Co.

I posted this before I played the nightly build.
To me, Ness is nearly perfect now. The added PKF startup speed is sooooo good.
It makes it much easier to land the move now.
 

Reidlos Toof

Foot Dive!
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
111
Why do you want to stop C stick from doing tilts? That has nothing to do with making brawl more competitive, it just makes it more like melee.
 

Perfect Chaos

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
3,885
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
NNID
PerfectChaos7
Frankly, it just doesn't make sense for a c-stick, when set to SMASH (if I want the c-stick to do tilts, I'll set it to tilts...), to do d-tilt when you are holding down on the control stick. If I wanted to do a d-tilt while I'm already holding down on the control stick, I'll just press A. If it's changed, it just adds more versatility, by allowing you to quickly d-smash while crouching, which especially helps those with good/quick d-smashes.
It's not really too important, so it doesn't take much priority for the coders to actually make such a code, but I'm sure that the majority would appreciate it if such a code would be created.
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
Unlike you two, I actually use that aspect of the c-stick. I have my control scheme completely changed around in a way where my default position is on the c-stick, and I literally never use the a button in matches. I do my tilts through the cstick and nairs by using L. I understand that you may not use that option, but trying to take it out solely because YOU don't utilize it isn't a very good argument.
 

Perfect Chaos

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
3,885
Location
Salt Lake City, Utah
NNID
PerfectChaos7
Unlike you two, I actually use that aspect of the c-stick. I have my control scheme completely changed around in a way where my default position is on the c-stick, and I literally never use the a button in matches. I do my tilts through the cstick and nairs by using L. I understand that you may not use that option, but trying to take it out solely because YOU don't utilize it isn't a very good argument.
You do all your tilts through the c-stick? If that's the case, then the change wouldn't even affect you. (But if I misunderstood your post, then I apologize.) And when crouching, you can use whatever button you set to "attack" to do a d-tilt (doesn't have to be "A"). Frankly, it's not just "us two" that would benefit, anyway. I would say around 95% wouldn't be affected, and I don't see the remaining 5% being "totally screwed" in any way.

But I'm not going to discuss this any further, seeing how out of hand the other debates with you were near the end (not to mention time-consuming, which I don't want to spend the time debating over for this subject...it's not like they're even working on such a code, so what's the point...). But if you want to say something in response to this, feel free; I'll read it, but won't comment back.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I told them how to do it.

Use CAM to allow characters to dash out of taunts and then cancel dashes into taunts.

Bam. Brawl+ Taunt Canceling. :V
except you can't use CAM to prematurely end actions...
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
You do all your tilts through the c-stick? If that's the case, then the change wouldn't even affect you. (But if I misunderstood your post, then I apologize.) And when crouching, you can use whatever button you set to "attack" to do a d-tilt (doesn't have to be "A"). Frankly, it's not just "us two" that would benefit, anyway. I would say around 95% wouldn't be affected, and I don't see the remaining 5% being "totally screwed" in any way.

But I'm not going to discuss this any further, seeing how out of hand the other debates with you were near the end (not to mention time-consuming, which I don't want to spend the time debating over for this subject...it's not like they're even working on such a code, so what's the point...). But if you want to say something in response to this, feel free; I'll read it, but won't comment back.
Considering that I do all my tilts using the c-stick, and you're trying to change it so you can't do any tilts using the c-stick, I don't exactly see how "it wouldn't even affect me".

You are suggesting that I change my control scheme simply because you and one other guy can't be bothered to let go of the control stick when you do a dsmash. I'd point out how absurd this is, but I think it should be pretty self-evident.
 

BEES

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,051
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Perfect Chaos probably thought you were saying you set the c-stick to tilts, which is wrong. You're very clearly using it to do tilts while you hold the control stick in a direction. It's a good strategy that saves finger movements, and we would be idiots to remove that option from the game.
 

Alphatron

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
2,269
You can let go of the control stick and dsmash before your character even gets out of the crouching animation.
 

phatcat203

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
Messages
160
Location
I've been everywhere, man.
Okay, I know no one really cares about this, or if it has been mentioned, I'm sorry, but if you're playing a casual match with items, whenever you get a timer, certain moves (like many of Lucas' or Captain Falcon's Fsmash) will cause the character to slide in a direction until the lag wears off or they hit an edge. Also, when a timer is activated, a floaty effect activates, and for some reason Sonic's Up Special will send him downward much farther than it initially did before shooting him upwards, sometimes causing deaths.

Like I said, I really don't expect this to be fixed, since no one plays casual B+, or if they do, they probably don't use timers. I just wanted to point it out, as this may affect other things too, like some characters' traction and sliding.
 
Top Bottom