Counterpicking Made Easy (Tactical Duplicate)

[deepseadiva]

why are you posting stages that barely see competitive play?

Everything Ban/Counter and up is posted due to regional differences. I'm not one to decide what does/does not get played on.

 

[memphischains]

you should set it up differently then.

either you have to go by region (make a section for all of them) to create more accuracy,
or set up a best strike / ban, neutral choice

plus, how can you really define the "best" of anything for a character. it's more about the player.



sonic, as an example, really depends on play style.
if you homing attack a lot, then you would be against any level with platforms.
if you u-air a lot, then low ceiling stages could be considered the best
if you tech chase, you like flats
if you like using the level as a tool, then hazardous levels are a prime pick.

does that make sense?

 

[deepseadiva]

does that make sense?

It does - which is why I say the same thing in the first post. It's a general perspective and ultimately comes down to player preference.

Though I like the idea of the starter choices, I'll just need to think about how to fit it in effectively.

 

[memphischains]

you should probably make a better point about it in the OP then


for sonic, in a "general" perspective,

starter / counterpick - FD, unless it gets striken/ban then go for smashville
strike - lylat
ban - lylat if you can ban a neutral, hanenbow

 

[Deoxys]

Corneria is bad for MK. Also, you're right about Norfair being a good CP aainst him in some matchups, but it depends on the type of recovery the opponent has.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thoughts:

Bowser actually likes FD in certain matchups where his grab release excels, like against Meta Knight. When I fight Bowser with predominantly aerial characters, platforms tend to make juggling him easier... but I'm no Bowser main. However, it certainly is possible for one of a character's "worst stages" to also be one of their "best", since matchups can vary so much.

Diddy hates Brinstar I'd imagine. It wrecks his banana game. I'd assume Smashville would be his second best stage to FD, but I could be mistaken.

DK worst stages, besides Skyworld, are probably Frigate and Rainbow Cruise. Ripple might disagree, but I don't think Brinstar is a good stage at all against aerial characters; Jungle Japes and Luigi's Mansion should be plain terrible for him in a lot of matchups since it eliminates his amazing d-smash KO power and nerfs his potential to bair chain off the side, why is it listed? DK should love Corneria more than any other stage as long as the matchup lets him get away with it.

I don't understand why Falco is listed as good on Luigi's Mansion, is there a trick to it? laser lock after hit off ceiling or something? Either way, I'd put FD down as a good stage for Falco.

Pirate Ship is sort of a cop-out for Ganondorf... Honestly I like Battlefield and Luigi's Mansion with him, but it doesn't matter too much. Oh, he is really good on Norfair and Brinstar though, though are probably his only real "best stages". His worst stage is Port Town or any walk-offs like Mario Circuit if they count; as far as common stages, he doesn't like FD all that much in my experience.

Ice Climbers like FD, right? They hate Norfair and Brinstar? Why is Pictochat listed as their best, doesn't it mess up chaingrabs while FD doesn't?

Why does Ike dislike Mansion?

Jigglypuff also loves Norfair and Jungle Japes. Port Town is probably excellent for her as well.

If it's a chaingrab matchup, DDD loves anything with a walk off, and hates stuff like Brinstar and Norfair. He dislikes Japes, since it nerfs his ability to kill with u-tilt and no one kills him off the top anyway.

Link likes Rainbow Cruise? O_o I have the most trouble against Legan on Battlefield, but that might just be me.

The Lucario stages listed are dead-on.

Lucas and Ness both like Corneria. They really hate FD and such against Marth/Charizard for obvious reasons.

Why does Mario hate Pictochat?

Meta Knight hates FD the most in a lot of matchups.

The stages listed for Ness are ridiculous, there is more to him than spiking people stupid enough to fall in the water in front of Ness. Ness probably loves Corneria the most, and Green Greens after that. Brinstar and Norfair aren't bad with him, especially in mathcups against non-aerial characters.

My roommate mains Olimar and thinks Halberd is his best stage. Norfair bugs him since he can avoid gimps, but can't get KOs out of grabs. Skyworld sucks for him.

Peach's listed stages are about right. Green Greens would be interesting to see her play on, dunno how that would turn out. She is probably decent on Rainbow Cruise.

Pokemon Trainer is best on Corneria and Castle Siege. They do pretty well on Halberd, and dislike Jungle Japes and Luigi's mansion.

I have no idea what to think for Shiek or Zelda. Why is Battlefield listed as bad for Shiek?

...Snake likes Brinstar? Wha? What, do people jump into his tilts there? He should hate that stage, as well as Norfair. Snake should like Corneria and Halberd for their ceilings.

Toon Link probably likes FD more than most neutral stages in most matchups.

This might be a silly theory, but you could claim that Wario likes stages like Luigi's Mansion and Jungle Japes more because they let him get in more potential fart KOs than stages like Corneria or Brinstar. Otherwise imo Wario is somewhat stage agnostic.

Yoshi's worsted stages listed seem oddball, though I can understand Frigate.

I'm gonna flip through this thread and see if I can understand any of the listed picks better.

 

[tha_carter]

In what sick, twisted world is Rainbow Cruise Links best stage?

Samus...final destination? Frigate Orpheon?

Maybe the individual boards should give their opinions.

 

[Matador]

We should probably get the answers from the actual boards instead of random people. It's a little more concrete that way and issues can be taken up with the board of people that decided the best and worst. That way this thread isn't cluttered with discussion about one character, but two characters and why one stage counters a certain character n junk of that nature.

That way a little more progress can be made.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm gonna flip through this thread and see if I can understand any of the listed picks better.

Thanks for the wall of info - I'll add it soon. But yea, a lot of these are kinda "Huh...?", that's what this thread is hopefully here to fix.

In what sick, twisted world is Rainbow Cruise Links best stage?

I remember the Link discussion succinctly, it was about how Link is best on defense and how Rainbow Cruise caters to that. They also like Norfair.

That way a little more progress can be made.

When I first started writing this thread that's exactly what I did. You'd be surprised how few stage discussions there are - and I don't feel particularly inclined to making 37 different topics. I think this discussion is fine.

It is a working list after all.

 

[Matador]

When I first started writing this thread that's exactly what I did. You'd be surprised how few stage discussions there are - and I don't feel particularly inclined to making 37 different topics. I think this discussion is fine.

It is a working list after all.

*sigh*

Fair enough. Just my two cents.

 

[Deoxys]

Green Greens offers some of the same aspects. Blocks prevent dsmash kills, close blastzones allow for actual deaths, stupid MKs will set off the blocks with their ultra-ranged attacks, Praxis wrote some stuff up about it...

I also read somewhere Norfair is good against him, due to the many ledges irritating his edgeguarding.

Stupid MKs dying shouldn't be a factor in why GG is a good CP against MK. The low ceiling in Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Corneria, and close blast zones everywhere in GG is why they make good MK CPs. Norfair is good against him depending on the matchup, especially with Olimar, but Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Corneria are both better for Olimar against MK.

 

[MysticKenji]

Why does Ike dislike Mansion?

1. No approach.
2. No air game.
3. No grab game.
4. Can't do anything with the ceiling because you're too slow.
5. Missing techs can put you in places where you can't recover.
6. Destroying the mansion just creates FD with a higher ceiling.

In what sick, twisted world is Rainbow Cruise Links best stage?

The one called Brawl, maybe?

 

[deepseadiva]

The low ceiling in Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Corneria, and close blast zones everywhere in GG is why they make good MK CPs.

I never understood this argument. Close blastzones are good for MK because he can kill earlier? Can't everyone kill earlier with closer blastzones? It's the lighter characters that suffer from them the most - MK is a light character, and thus he will suffer.

*fire erupts in background*

 

[Fino]

I like this list in that I would love for someone to pick RC against my olly.
bait and switch ftw! lol


~Fino

 

[Joxer]

corneria as a bad stage for kirby because of the low ceiling and the poor ledge camping ability that kirby has?

 

[Daimonster]

Could someone give me a brief explanation as to why Snake does so well on Brinstar? I looked into the snake threads and failed.

 

[deepseadiva]

corneria as a bad stage for kirby because of the low ceiling and the poor ledge camping ability that kirby has?

Uh, I'm not exactly sure... but you mean Kirby is bad on Corneria...? Okay, I'll add it, if that's what you mean of course.

Could someone give me a brief explanation as to why Snake does so well on Brinstar? I looked into the snake threads and failed.

That happens a lot concerning the Snake boards.
I'd imagine it has to do with the close quarters, and the lava helping his recovery... for some reason. I'd have a Snake main confirm/disapprove.

 

[Deoxys]

Skyworld is MK's 3rd best stage, and his third worst is Corneria, not Norfair.

 

[Niko_K]

Just CP what YOU are most comfortable with. Ban what you are least comfortable with.

 

[deepseadiva]

Just CP what YOU are most comfortable with. Ban what you are least comfortable with.

I agree, but there are flaws in that. What if your best stage is Luigi's and you're going against Rob? :embarrass

Handy dandy list to the rescue.

 

[UnSaxon51]

can you explain to me why mk has a disadvantage on Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Green Greens?

MK doesn't have any terrible counterpicks, but as has been stated, he tends to die a lot faster on stages with low ceilings due to his weight.

Just re-stating.

 

[LuigiKing]

Please throw in Japes as a worst Luigi stage. It has the highest ceiling in the game, and this causes massive problems.

 

[Oddler]

Bridge of Eldin for Link. He can't be edge guarded with his lame jump by any Metaknights or Kirbys who follow him off the edge. Nice and flat for Link which is perfect for projectiles and Zair ****. When the level splits in two he can run for the opposite end of the blast zone to shoot arrows at people while they try to dodge until the bridge is rebuilt.

As a Link main I highly recommend Bridge of Eldin

 

[Deoxys]

I never understood this argument. Close blastzones are good for MK because he can kill earlier? Can't everyone kill earlier with closer blastzones? It's the lighter characters that suffer from them the most - MK is a light character, and thus he will suffer.

Meta Knight has the best recovery, by a significant margin. The only way MK dies in many matches is when he cannot recover quickly enough to stop his momentum until he hits the blast zone.

Also, I forgot to mention that if we wanted to order this we'd put Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, Skyworld, and Yoshi's Island Melee, Corneria, Green Greens.

Explanation of why Yoshi's Island Melee is so bad for MK:

1. It's really dangerous to edgeguard.
2. Low ceiling.
3. MK usually either gimps of KOs off the sides, but horizontal blows can prevented by hitting the pipes or--to a greater extent--the hill on the right. Even with the low ceiling, it is hard for the MK player to KO above.
4. The least significant by far is that his Shuttle Loop (not already effected by points 1 & 2) is slightly less useful with the blocks in place.

Bridge of Eldin for Link. He can't be edge guarded with his lame jump by any Metaknights or Kirbys who follow him off the edge. Nice and flat for Link which is perfect for projectiles and Zair ****. When the level splits in two he can run for the opposite end of the blast zone to shoot arrows at people while they try to dodge until the bridge is rebuilt.

As a Link main I highly recommend Bridge of Eldin

Bridge of Eldin is banned.

 

[kaak]

i always use this method http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_MyzLnOat8 a great method by gimpyfish works fine!

 

[Taalcon]

Zss's attacks are too linear for Lylac Cruise to be any good for her. When the stage tilts, all of her side-b and spacing is screwed.

 

[SuSa]

Link - Good stage - Norfair

Lava can save you from gimps, his dair ***** to kill off the low-top, and his heavy weight makes it hard to kill him from the top. The close-sides and multiple ledges allow many mindgames with projectiles and zair.

 

[XxBlackxX]

luigi's mansion as one of falco's best? lmao
ok.....first of all, the high ceiling hits falco's most reliable (and fastest) killing move, the usmash
and the house hurts the camping game and the wall between two levels messes up vertical combos. in fact, this is one of his worse stages. (not the worst though).
its also kinda interesting you put norfair as falco's worst? well it obviously doesnt favor him i dont see why it would be his worst. i think lylat is a worse stage for falco than norfair.

 

[UltiMario]

as an MK main, I really prefer Battlefield. Its easy to keep opponents at the top, and hard for them to hit you below. Also, its one of the few stages where his Up-Throw is a viable KO move.

 

[viparagon]

this thread will die if it isn't bumped. Its really useful, so.....

bump bump bump

 

[Foxy]

Old Poke' is most certainly one of DK's best stages (if not the best).

It has ledges that he can cargo stage-spike more easily with than those of any other stage, it has two walls he can use for infinites, and if you can catch an opponent with his down-b under the windmill you get about 80% free damage.

So many advantages - please add it to his stuff.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Good list, nice and easy to read. Don't have much complaints about the characters I use, so... yeah, thanks for the list, haha.

 

[XxBlackxX]

this thread will die if it isn't bumped. Its really useful, so.....

bump bump bump

you know there's the exact same thread in stage discussion and that isn't dead right?

 

[Pr0phetic]

One of Marth's other best stages is Delfino Plaza

 

[viparagon]

oh, yoshi's island is better for mario IMO than smashville since the pillar things can save his *** and he can walljump...

FD is definitely not that bad a stage for him either...

 

[XxBlackxX]

oh, yoshi's island is better for mario IMO than smashville since the pillar things can save his *** and he can walljump...

FD is definitely not that bad a stage for him either...

the pillar things are random, they can save your opponent's *** too....

 

[viparagon]

the pillar things are random, they can save your opponent's *** too....

yeah, but mario needs it more than most! (his horizontal recovery is meh)

 

[XxBlackxX]

yeah, but mario needs it more than most! (his horizontal recovery is meh)

but don't forgot smashville has the platforms, which help with horizontal recovery as well. well im not a mario main so....i guess you would know what stages are better than him than me.

 

[viparagon]

but don't forgot smashville has the platforms, which help with horizontal recovery as well. well im not a mario main so....i guess you would know what stages are better than him than me.

true, smashvilles a good stage, but IMO Yoshi's Island is better

 

[deepseadiva]

This got bumped? FINE, I'll update... Hold on.

(Rrfhghfrf stoopid bumbin kids rgrdgrsdfsrf bumpin my dead threads will ya)

Editz:

I need answer before changing DK's info.

Old Poke' is most certainly one of DK's best stages (if not the best).

It has ledges that he can cargo stage-spike more easily with than those of any other stage, it has two walls he can use for infinites, and if you can catch an opponent with his down-b under the windmill you get about 80% free damage.

So many advantages - please add it to his stuff.

I'm limiting stages to top three, would you place PS1 over Corneria, Brinstar, or Jungle Japes - if any of them? I've had people telling me those are his top three since forever.