Counterpicking Stages - Current Discussion: PIKACHU

[T-block]

Hmmm... k let's get some thoughts out on Battlefield. Does it favour Marth or PT more?

Pretty much any stage is going to be grab release pain for Squirtle. Marth is gonna be able to land an upsmash on Battlefield as well as Norfair. The ledges on Norfair work both ways. Marth edgeguards PT really effectively - especially Squirtle and Ivysaur - on most stages anyways, so I would even say the ledges help PT more than they help Marth.

I was thinking Yoshi's too, canvas. You can probably make use of the ghost platform better than Marth can lol.

Also, just out of curiosity, I searched the Marth boards for stage discussions. They have Yoshi's Island and Norfair listed as 3rd and 4th worst stages out of their 16 stages. I dunno how accurate/up to date it is (jan 27 '09 was last update), but I found it pretty interesting.

 

[Toby.]

Marth can't upsmash squirtle on battlefield. As long as you hold shield you will perfect shield it the moment you land on the platform.

Yoshis is meh. The platform only occasionally saves us because it changes a fair bit, and the slopes on the ledges let marth uber edgeguard us with dtilt. One dtilt there can make it impossible for every poke except for charizard to recover.

whilst the ledges on norfair help us avoid his edgeguarding, they also allow marth to plank extremely well, and cover a lot of angles with a falling fair from the ledge. Also the most important thing in the marth matchup (the thing that you *need* to do to make it winnable) is forcing him off the edge and keeping him there. It's way more important for us that marth is on the ledge; marth doesn't really mind if we are on the edge because he is better on stage anyway.

 

[Miles.]

Waaaaatergun.

That said I like FD vs maaarfs. Or other big levels, with big sides.

 

[Steeler]

which is better, brinstar or battlefield? those two seem like the very best imo.

 

[Shaya]

Brinstar is LOL. I wouldn't want to be playing against PT on it.

Brinstar is definitely better than Battlefield for PT.
But I think it only takes one friendly for any Marth to realise '**** this', and ban Brinstar or change character haha.
(A lot of tournament Marths change characters when they hear brinstar anyway; Marth cannot compete against MK, Wario, DK [just about every character that does good on the stage] at all).

After Brinstar it's probably battle field.

Final Destination makes Squirtle completely useless (like if every other stage is 80% useless, this one is 99.5% useless), but gives Ivy a bit of a boost, and leaves Marth no options on the ledge against Zard, whilst still being awkward against Squirtle.

Anyway
Stage Strike: Final D, Smashville/Yoshi's Island
CP: Brinstar, Battlefield, Lylat
Ban: Oh god too many to ban. Final D is probably the worst of them though. Actually, Marth may have the valour to CP Rainbow Cruise, being an inherently bad PT stage; you may just be more comfortable banning a universally bad PT stage.

Actually, I didn't mention Lylat.
Lylat is really bad for Marth against Squirtle from what I can gather; worse than Battlefield in my humble opinion.
Marth has no way to get off the ledge with the platform covering Squirtle's head, defending him from Marth's aerials, and allowing him to fair Marth if he tries to land here to negate his Ledge jump bug; as any aerial you pop on him if shielding, will just about make him fall off and then BAM grab again, FFS; and if he doesn't shield, the fair will probably reset the situation.
Also due to the natural defences, Squirtle is very easily able to grab you from most get ups due to his evil dash grabs... As Marth cannot even mix up a ledge drop jump airdodge onto the stage due to the slant giving Squirtle loads of time to react before Marth can actually get onto the ground.

After 100% on Lylat, Marth's screwed, and his only real option is to plank until Squirtle's tired.

 

[T-block]

I totally forgot about Lylat... seems like a good choice to me. As for bans, I'm thinking FD, Delfino, RC?

And what's our final position on Norfair?

 

[Shaya]

Norfair is a primarily aerial stage.
Marth wins here.

Norfair has many ledges, making it safe to get up from the ledge.
Squirtle's and Charizard's advantages against Marth on the ledge is nullified.

Marth can plank excessively well.
Only Ivysaur can can plank back, but Marth has tools to disrupt the planking.

I don't really see the advantages outweighing the disadvantages here.

 

[T-block]

All right I'll leave off Norfair... Metaknight yay. Here's what I'm thinking:

Counterpick: Pirate Ship, Yoshi's Island (pipes), Final Destination
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, Luigi's Mansion

Bans should make sense... MK is amazing on those stages, and PT isn't great on any of them. MK can't gimp kill you on Pirate Ship, and I find the stage always gives you a lot of room, which helps when you're trying to get away from an agressive MK player. The low grav part sucks, but it doesn't last for too long. Yoshi's pipes is again gimp protection, and Squirtle can do some cool stuff with the slopes. I'm not too sure about this one though... I can see the blocks leading to some vicious combos by MK. Final D I put in because the other two aren't always allowed. It also gives you space to work with.

 

[Toby.]

Two quick things.

MK can still gimp on pirate ship. All he has to do is get you in the water. From that point on he'll just hover over you doing dairs, with each one bringing you closer to the blastzone. Then we die

Yoshis island allows metaknight to do some uber camping if he gets under the blocks. The crazy range and height of his ftilt allows him to over almost all approach angles, making it very hard to defeat a campy metaknight here. The low ceiling helps us a fair bit though.

 

[T-block]

I've never been killed like that on Pirate Ship... is it almost inescapable?

 

[Toby.]

I have no idea about the frame advantage he gets there, but since every time you get hit the time you need to spend in the water is reset...its pretty effective. Even if we can jump out, metaknights dair is faster and more disjointed than pretty much everything we have.

 

[Steeler]

it's so hard to cp mk. i don't think there's one set stage that works for all pt's. just depends on personal preferences stage/pokemon-wise as to whether or not a stage gives you the advantage (or less of a disadvantage i guess). it also depends on the mk too. on any stage that gives your best poke an advantage, mk probably also benefits from the stage in some way. and likely moreso than you do.

some stages that could be considered are halberd, brinstar, pictochat, castle siege...in order of how good it would probably be for you.

what deserves mention is cp'ing as a player against another player, and taking them to a stage you are practiced with that the opponent isn't comfortable on.

idk i'm bad at counterpicking stages

 

[shinyspoon42]

Counterpick to New Pork City and ruuuuun away! ;D



jk, my fave stage is just final d. ;_; meta is a pain.

 

[MaTA]

final is a good stage to play MK on just because its a lot big so you could survive a lot more. Lylat isn't that bad of a stage to play on as well to me just because you could move around a lot and it could give you a slight advantage with the stage tilting.

I'd probably ban rainbow cruise and jungle japes a long with halbard and lot more small stages. but yeah MK is gay. but Squirtle can own him...

 

[Vermy]

Mansion, FD and Halberd.

I disagree with Brinstar. One well placed shuttle loop = early kill.

 

[typh]

stay neutral against MK

squirtle can outplay him

 

[T-block]

vermiis you're saying ban FD? I don't see why... no MK is ever going to CP FD against you.

I say no to Brinstar as well. It's too small and lets MK pressure really effectively. I'd hesitate on Halberd as well. Low ceiling is nice, but MK's ability to go through the platform during the floating part is going to give you issues. If you make it to the main platform part though, PT would do pretty well. When I think about this I'm considering two things... stages that can help against his gimp kills, and stages that give you enough space to help you deal with all the pressure a MK can pour on.

I do like Pictochat though... I think that should go on the CP list unless anyone can think of an objection. Pictochat, Final Destination, Pirate Ship... ?

 

[Vermy]

Nononononono, I was saying WE cp with FD, Mansion and Halberd lol.

FD has been explained, no need to go into detail as why.

Mansion is amazing for Ivy. Razorleaf goes through the pillars, so we can "camp" very effectively. Vinewhip going through the levels is safe and unpunishable. Thanks to the house levels, we can trap with BS for a little longer, or even link them together on landing. Charizard DOES NOT DIE if he stays inside the house. Small, enclosed space + flamethrower = awesome damage. Squirtle can manouver around the stage very well, and aerial camp like there's no tomorrow. Destroy the house, and its a bigger FD. No problems there.
Halberd, I dunno. I just do well in general on that stage. PT throws into stage hazards are awesome.

 

[T-block]

MK takes advantage of the solid ceilings a lot more than we can with Tornado, u-tilt, u-smash and stuff, and he can hit us under the ledges as well. Charizard just gets combo'd to hell when he's inside the house. Also, the ceiling is really high on this stage - if you even use her, Ivysaur is going to have a lot of trouble killing. LM is one of MK's best stages.

Halberd might be OK... it's only the floating part I'm worried about.

 

[T-block]

Falco should be pretty easy ^^

Stage Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Jungle Japes, Final Destination

All three CP's mess with his CG, Illusion, and to some extent laser spam. Brinstar and Norfair are just awesome PT stages as discussed already, and they don't give Falco much to work with. Falco camps really well on JJ and has illusion tricks that make the fight not fun... he camps really well on FD as well.

 

[Steeler]

stay neutral against MK

squirtle can outplay him

ignore the smiley, he's not kidding.

what about cping so charizard does better? honestly i feel like charizard is usually at a disadvantage because mk can consistently outdamage you with juggles and ****...but charizard has that huge damage potential. if you can successfully trade off occasionally and get a big burst of rock smash damage, you can then come in with squirtle on the last stock with a lead. obviously that's a big if and not guaranteed, but remember...MK is light and doesn't like taking a ****load of damage all at once.

honestly i think brinstar is the best cp stage here because although you have to worry about that shuttle loop, you also have great platforms + a better air game with squirtle and mk doesn't really have anywhere to go against your big charizard hitboxes...basically brinstar (and other small stages, but brinstar is the best for pt) aid you in that playstyle that (imo) works best against mk, which is basically outdamage MK with that huge potential to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. because campy MK is a huge **** to PT. aggro MK is fun to play against and cannot keep up with you if you play it right.

 

[T-block]

CP'ing for Charizard makes a lot of sense, but I'm not so sure he can keep up with an aggressive MK on a stage like Brinstar. Those platforms work against you once you're not Squirtle and it's gonna be stupidly hard to get out of a juggle while MK is sheltered on the inside of the stage.

Other than that, I really don't know what stage gives Charizard a good advatage. Could he air release him to death on something like Yoshi's Island pipes? lol... Green Greens might be cool too, although MK's d-smash on the side will be pretty bad.

 

[Steeler]

charizard can't force air releases.

 

[T-block]

Oh really? That's me being dumb then lol

I can't think of a stage Charizard would do really well on. I still think a confined stage like Brinstar does more in MK's favour than Charizard's.

 

[Toby.]

Charizard can probably force an air release on yoshis island (brawl). MK air release -> upsmash kgo.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I think Charizard would generally do better on a stage that's larger horizontally, like Pictochat and Final Destination. You want to aim your Rock Smash to tear through Mach Tornado and deal the maximum amount of damage/knockback, which is from the side and slightly above him. The safest way to get into position would be with a larger horizontal area. Also, Meta Knight has a harder time approaching you from the air without platforms, since he manipulates them better in general.

 

[Miles.]

Fd for sure.

Charizard does NOT want to be stuck on a small level with no where to run.

 

[T-block]

I dunno how you're gonna deal with Tornado spam on a stage like Brinstar... at least with FD you can dash away and try for a b-air.

Thoughts on Green Greens? D-smash on the side and ledgecamping are the only problems I can see. Otherwise it has a pretty low ceiling, d-tilt is nice with the close horizontal blastzones, Flamethrower can blow up the blocks, and you can try to escape the juggle by heading towards one of the sides. I don't see Squirtle being disadvantaged here either.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I dunno how you're gonna deal with Tornado spam on a stage like Brinstar... at least with FD you can dash away and try for a b-air.

Thoughts on Green Greens? D-smash on the side and ledgecamping are the only problems I can see. Otherwise it has a pretty low ceiling, d-tilt is nice with the close horizontal blastzones, Flamethrower can blow up the blocks, and you can try to escape the juggle by heading towards one of the sides. I don't see Squirtle being disadvantaged here either.

Green Greens seems like a good idea to me...but I don't know where it's considered legal.

 

[Zigsta]

Green Greens used to be legal, but it's banned now.

I also agree with FD for the above reasons.

 

[Steeler]

green greens is still legal here for some reason.

so there are two strategies to take...

cp for squirtle so that he has a neutral matchup, or close to it. maybe even advantaged idk.

cp for charizard so squirtle still does well and charizard does too

 

[Zigsta]

It's legal in Kansas? Hmm, that's interesting. It's banned in Texas and Louisiana for sure. I remember 'cuz at Gamelot 7, Espy counterpicked Green Greens against Hylian and got wrecked; it was banned in the state a few days later. XD

 

[T-block]

It was legal in a tournament I went to a few weeks ago, banned in another, so it looks like one of those borderline stages. I'll stick it in the list anyways, since now that I think about it, I'd take it over FD.

so there are two strategies to take...

cp for squirtle so that he has a neutral matchup, or close to it. maybe even advantaged idk.

cp for charizard so squirtle still does well and charizard does too

I would say CP for Charizard... we saw from Typh's vids that Squirtle can't do it alone. The thing is, it's still FD and Green Greens and stuff that comes to mind when I think of CPing for Charizard

 

[Zigsta]

What I really don't like with Green Greens for MK is that he can just plank underneath the stage, wait for you to mess up, and Shuttle Loop you.

 

[Vermy]

I dunno about FD. Something about cping FD against a Metaknight just doesn't sit right with me.

Id rather go Pictochat. PTs overall amazing grab game will work great here. Throw into stage hazards is too good. Added to that a low floor means ivy isn't nearly as likely to get gimped.

 

[T-block]

I thought about the Zigsta, but then I thought "hell, if he wanted to plank you he could do it on FD too"

lol vermiis you can go to Pictochat ;D I haven't really heard a good reason against FD. And how does low floor mean less likely to get gimped? Either way, MK can still gimp her really easily, and you probably won't be playing her anyways, especially with the high ceiling.

 

[shinyspoon42]

FD sounds like the best legal option imo. Pictochat has high ceiling, weird obstacles, and no platforms. I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[T-block]

FD has no platforms either =P Platforms probably help MK more than they help us in this matchup. Squirtle makes better use of them, but we're forced to play Charizard, where you're probably better off without platforms for MK to hide under. I don't think Pictochat is a bad CP at all... I was just wondering why vermiis said a low floor meant MK had a harder time gimping Ivysaur.

 

[Vermy]

Low floor and short sides means mk has less space to move around off stage. Ergo, a small amount less chance of gimping. He can't chase as effectively. The stage hazards may also keep him busy. The second you get hit off stage low ivy you can upB and get back than you could on FD. Hit high, dodge your way to safety.

Pictochat has platforms, even though they don't stay permenantly.

The shape of the stage also means mk can't plank.

 

[T-block]

Short sides I can agree with, but low floor doesn't make sense to me. But we're getting off-topic.

I think we're good for MK... let's move on to Falco now?

Falco should be pretty easy ^^

Stage Strike: Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Jungle Japes, Final Destination

All three CP's mess with his CG, Illusion, and to some extent laser spam. Brinstar and Norfair are just awesome PT stages as discussed already, and they don't give Falco much to work with. Falco camps really well on JJ and has illusion tricks that make the fight not fun... he camps really well on FD as well.