Counterpicking Stages - Current Discussion: PIKACHU

[Zigsta]

I thought about the Zigsta, but then I thought "hell, if he wanted to plank you he could do it on FD too"

The thing that makes planking better on Green Greens than FD is that Green Greens is split up into three platforms, each with two edges to plank, and the two platforms on the side are small enough to go up and under in a lot less time than I takes MK to go up and under FD. Plus there's a chance that I you try attacking said planker, a random bomb block can come down. GG.

 

[Vermy]

Falco? Stoopid pew pew grab grab spikey spikey bird.

Norfair and brinstar all the way. Lava saving us from spikes <3
I prefer Norfair, but that's just because I haven't quite figured out how to use brinstar to my advantage.

Norfairs many platforms works to ivys advantage, completely nullifying an edgehog. It also takes the fight to the air, where squirtle really shines and falco hates being in the air vs squirtle. Ivy works best when an opponent is above her, and this stage sets that up really well. Zard doesn't mind either way. Not being cgd all over the place is great...unless that falco knows how to pillar/pivot cg. =/ one problem with norfair I see is that it may encourage falco to run away and camp.

Although brinstar takes that out of the equation. 'Scuse the noobularity, but why is brinstar great for PT?

I don't entirely agree with lylat cruise. If a falco manages to pull off a cg>spike, we can't meteor cancel it as safely. Low floor means less room to recover from.

 

[shmo395]

ignore the smiley, he's not kidding.

what about cping so charizard does better? honestly i feel like charizard is usually at a disadvantage because mk can consistently outdamage you with juggles and ****...but charizard has that huge damage potential. if you can successfully trade off occasionally and get a big burst of rock smash damage, you can then come in with squirtle on the last stock with a lead. obviously that's a big if and not guaranteed, but remember...MK is light and doesn't like taking a ****load of damage all at once.

honestly i think brinstar is the best cp stage here because although you have to worry about that shuttle loop, you also have great platforms + a better air game with squirtle and mk doesn't really have anywhere to go against your big charizard hitboxes...basically brinstar (and other small stages, but brinstar is the best for pt) aid you in that playstyle that (imo) works best against mk, which is basically outdamage MK with that huge potential to do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. because campy MK is a huge **** to PT. aggro MK is fun to play against and cannot keep up with you if you play it right.

i like that your trien to prove that MK does have a weakness, but cant he just use tornado when your in the air? what will u do about it? also he can attack you from above, he'll beat u there too. along with his ***gy up B he can use when ur in the air. and if you die, youll hear, GO IVYSAUR! -_- now ur screwed.

Also anyone thinks hometown SSBB level is good 4 any space animal, you truly a scrub at the game

 

[Steeler]

i like that your trien to prove that MK does have a weakness, but cant he just use tornado when your in the air? what will u do about it? also he can attack you from above, he'll beat u there too. along with his ***gy up B he can use when ur in the air. and if you die, youll hear, GO IVYSAUR! -_- now ur screwed.

Also anyone thinks hometown SSBB level is good 4 any space animal, you truly a scrub at the game

squirtle is not easy to juggle, especially for a character with slow aerial movement like MK.

lylat has a huge "floor" by the way.

 

[T-block]

i like that your trien to prove that MK does have a weakness, but cant he just use tornado when your in the air? what will u do about it? also he can attack you from above, he'll beat u there too. along with his ***gy up B he can use when ur in the air. and if you die, youll hear, GO IVYSAUR! -_- now ur screwed.

Also anyone thinks hometown SSBB level is good 4 any space animal, you truly a scrub at the game

I have no idea what you're saying lol... and your argument, or what I think your argument is, doesn't really pertain to what we're saying, so...

Laser spam isn't a huge deal on Norfair imo. If he's on the other side of the stage it's easy to get to the bottom platform by hopping from edge to edge. The stage hazards make it so that he can't run forever too. I said Lylat because the tilt messes with laser spam, messes with illusion recovery, and can mess with his chain grab as well. CG > spike is a problem with Squirtle I guess, but that's the case for a lot of stages - you should be avoiding the grab at all costs anyways, especially for the first 50%. The platforms help us do that too. If by floor you mean floor blastzone, then yeah...I always thought the floor for Lylat was pretty far down...

Brinstar is awesome largely because of the uneven terrain. It leads to a more aerial game, which is good for Squirtle. Squirtle juggles really well there, especially with the platforms. Lava can help Squirtle and Ivy recover, kills off the top are common, as well as pretty close horizontal blastzones, which are good for PT. I find Ivysaur does okay on the ground here with f-tilt, but she has good anti-air, which works out nicely on this stage. The stage is a little weird for Charizard, but he can cope >_> Being juggled is a problem here. Also, the pillars block projectiles, while Ivy's leaf goes through them, and you can refresh your moves on the pillars/log things so Squirtle can get a fresh f-air pretty easily. A lot of characters like Falco, ROB, D3 feel really awkward on that stage so it ends up being a nice CP for us. Your description of Falco is <3 btw lol

 

[Blitzmidfielder]

From what I've observed and experienced, Yoshi's Island is a good one; the slant can bugger up Falco's CG and the platform play could be useful.

Also, I've been toying with Pirate Ship. Squirtle can survive to ridiculous percents in the water, even if he just gets continually spiked by Fa*co.

 

[T-block]

I forgot about Pirate Ship... I've definitely used it before, and it worked pretty well.

 

[Vermy]

Interesting summary of Brinstar...I think I shall experiment with it.

"pew pew grab grab spikey spikey bird"?
I've been calling him that since his cg was "discovered" lol. I feel it sums up every falco main. XD

Pirate ship....I love pirate ship. But be careful of vinewhip swing>ship death lol. I did that for one match at 200 something % for the lols. Mindgames.

If you can get the person on one of the platforms, ivys and zards uthrow will kill at high %. Also, no gimpz foar ivy XD. There's a discussion from a while ago on why Pirate Ship is good for PT on one of the other stage discussion threads.... *goes to find*

 

[Retro Gaming]

I use Lylat Cruise for Falco. It accents his pretty mediocre recovery, and has platforms for you.

Sometimes I pick Pokemon Stadium because of the ledges being funny, sometimes you can get Falco by just pushing him under there.

 

[T-block]

Played a Falco for a bit today, and yeah...Pirate Ship is good stuff. It's a lot easier to avoid Falco when you're in the water than it is to avoid Metaknight.

 

[shinyspoon42]

I'm liking Norfair and Pirate ship, Norfair has all those handy ledges to tether to, the lava will save you, and its great for ivy and easy to get to the bottom, where you want to be. Its great for squirtle as it leads into alot of air play, and Charizard...doesn't really care. Falco has a tougher time lasering, or CGing. Pirate ship is too good. No spikes, no Ivy gimps, early kills out the top, its perfect.

CP: Norfair, Pirate ship, Brinstar, or Lylat cruise.

Ban: Final Destination, Jungle Japes, or Smashville.

 

[T-block]

Looks like we're pretty good for Falco. We're probably gonna be seeing more Warios at tournaments, so let's discuss Wario next.

Reflex where are youuuuu

Stage Strike: Lylat Cruise, Smashville
Counterpick: Castle Siege, Pictochat, Norfair
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

I really have no idea @.@ How does PT do for grab releasing Wario?

 

[Toby.]

Pretty poorly. The only pokemon who can grab release wario is Ivysaur, and the best we get is a free up air. I experimented with a doopwalked bullet seed a while back but it doesn't work.

I can't think of any stages that we have an advantage over wario on.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Looks like we're pretty good for Falco. We're probably gonna be seeing more Warios at tournaments, so let's discuss Wario next.

Reflex where are youuuuu

Stage Strike: Lylat Cruise, Smashville
Counterpick: Castle Siege, Pictochat, Norfair
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

I really have no idea @.@ How does PT do for grab releasing Wario?

I think the most important thing here is to have platforms to work around. Wario likes platforms a lot, but Squirtle plays with them about as well, Ivysaur can defend a little better with them than without, and Charizard can camp under a platform really well (pretend you're Donkey Kong with your tilts; it's great!)

I would strike Smashville and either Final Destination or Lylat; while Lylat has a lot of platforms, I simply don't like fighting with the goofy movement. Perhaps that's just personal preference...but Smashville should definitely go.

Most gimmicky stages work in Wario's favor. This is a fight that you're going to have to win by simply outplaying him. As such, your favorite neutral or Pokemon Stadium 1 make good choices, I think. Anything else that's relatively flat with platforms is good, too...maybe Halberd and/or Delfino?

Just ban whatever stage is available that makes the fight a lot of aerial movement, like Rainbow Cruise. That's not a fun place to play when going against Wario.

The grab release stuff is iffy. You can time a F-Air/U-Air with Ivysaur anywhere, but good luck getting a grab in the first place. If you hydrograb Wario to the edge, you get a free F-Smash/U-Smash, which is practical and pretty strong. If you manage to grab Wario while he's off the edge (either via platforms or the actual edge), I think you get a free B-Air, F-Air, and U-Smash. I'm not sure how guaranteed a D-Air or F-Smash would be, but I've landed them before...

 

[T-block]

U-smash out of grab release is pretty cool =o I was wondering about grab releases in case we had any options good enough to influence stage choices. Looks like that's a no...

I said strike Lylat just because it can mess with Squirtle's and Charizard's recoveries, while Wario has no problems recovering there. Since Wario seems to have no bad stages, maybe we could get some more general stuff down. Correct me if any of these are wrong.

-PT uses a low ceiling better than Wario does. Wario has u-air, but we have Squirtle d-throw u-smash u-air, Ivysaur u-air u-smash f-air, Charizard u-smash
-PT uses close horizontal boundaries better than Wario does, since Wario has a good recovery and PT...does not
-Platforms help PT more than they help Wario
-The "pick stages that force aerial combat" strategy doesn't work well against Wario


Except for the last one, all this adds up to Brinstar in my mind, but IIRC Brinstar is one of his best stages. He could probably wreck Charizard there too.

 

[T-block]

Ok I guess no one cares about Wario =( First post updated... I don't think the Baton Pass discovery is enough of a change to make Smashville any better against Wario, so I went with what we already had.

Mr. Game and Watch go

Stage Strike: Lylat Cruise, Final Destination
Counterpick: Yoshi's Island (brawl), ?
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens

something like that?

 

[Zigsta]

If Corneria is tournament legal, I'd ban that one, too, since a filled up bucket thanks to those lasers leads to an instant KO.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Why would you ban anything other than Brinstar vs Wario?

 

[Zigsta]

G&W can plank on Green Greens like nobody's business. Saw Hylian do it to Espy at Gamelot.

 

[T-block]

Yeah Game and Watch is not fun on Green Greens. Between the six edges and the sausages arcing over to bomb blocks, he can camp stupidly well against PT. Good call on banning Corneria, although I think most tournaments make it illegal now anyways, no?

Any ideas for a CP? I think this is a matchup where PT makes better use of platforms, so I'd say Brinstar works well again. I'm tempted to say Luigi's Mansion too, but n-air through the floors and bucket braking might make that not such a good idea...

 

[anax4aero]

Platforms would be good as long as you stay below them, because above them you'll definitely be prey to aerial ****.
Brinstar might be good, although the weird flooring and such would affect Squirtle's shellshift, Ivy's camping, and it doesn't affect G&W since he approaches with the turtle. Then again, I just personally suck in Brinstar.

It's a tough one, I'd go for the smaller stages since G&W is so light that a hit with a smash attack or a dthrow with Squirtle can easily wreck him, maybe smashville and battlefield so the platforms mess up his game.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

yoshis island is not a good counterpick idea. his dtilt on the edge gets angled in such a way that makes recovering with squirtle and charizard really difficult. Not to mention he can camp under the platform much better than we can

 

[T-block]

^Now that I think about it, you're probably right about Yoshi's Island. Dunno what I was thinking there.

Platforms would be good as long as you stay below them, because above them you'll definitely be prey to aerial ****.
Brinstar might be good, although the weird flooring and such would affect Squirtle's shellshift, Ivy's camping, and it doesn't affect G&W since he approaches with the turtle. Then again, I just personally suck in Brinstar.

It's a tough one, I'd go for the smaller stages since G&W is so light that a hit with a smash attack or a dthrow with Squirtle can easily wreck him, maybe smashville and battlefield so the platforms mess up his game.

lol anax... Brinstar is a good stage for PT. Messing with the shellshift isn't a huge deal... the stage promotes aerial combat, and Squirtle is amazing in the air. The close boundaries make getting the kill really easy for Squirtle and Charizard, and it's not like it's one of Game and Watch'd best stages either. I suggest you get familiar with Brinstar... PT does really well on it, and it can really help in tournaments, especially with how little experience some people have on this stage Also, platforms don't mess up GW's game - he actually really likes platforms, but PT works them better than he does.

So, after giving it some more thought, this is what I'm at

Stage Strike: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise/Smashville
Counterpick: Brinstar, Battlefield, Castle Siege
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Corneria

I would strike towards Battlefield; if they strike it, then probably head towards Final Destination. Squirtle can use the platforms on Battlefield to get around GW's wall... second stage of Castle Siege nullifies GW's edgeguarding game and first stage doesn't give him a whole lot of room to space. Bans are obvious.

Thoughts?

 

[anax4aero]

Yea, I'll try to work on Brinstar, but atm I just really suck in it @_@

Castle Siege works well imo. What do you think about other changing stages, like Delfino or PS1?

 

[Vermy]

Vs GaW we need DI. And lots of it. Small stages will guarantee a kill on squirtle as early as 60%. Ban Yoshis Island Brawl. I wouldn't say no to smashville, a baton pass to Zard will help tank stocks. We can abuse that to no end and have use of all 3 pokemon in the 1 stock.

PS1 sounds good to me. Anyone tested if we have a free switch on stage changes? Battlefield may work ok, but on such an enclosed space he can pressure us very effectively. Although squirtle and zards usmash will kill if he's on one of the side platforms.

Game and Watch flat out ***** PT, our key here is survival, not power. Outlive him and land a quick, undiminished attack at high%.

Its a double edged sword as I see it.
Small stage = kill him early + die early
Large stage = kill him later but survive longer

Go with your favourite stage imo. Or not. GaW matchup makes me die inside. -_-
Honestly, I prefer Marth.

 

[T-block]

I used to second GW, but I've never actually played against one with PT. Small stages are definitely better than large stages. Game and Watch has a good edgeguarding game, and our recovery isn't the best. He doesn't have a whole lot of trouble KOing even on large stages, while large stages for us means that GW will never die, thanks to bucket braking.

PS1 might be cool...especially if we can Baton Pass on it, although I think the stage drops into the ground, so it'd probably drag us onto the main platform... it might work on the windmill though

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, it works on the windmill.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

one thing we should all keep in mind is that gaw players, myself included as I still do better with him than pokemon trainer, love to use the turtle. There are a lot of players that actually spam the turtle, not knowing that you can mash out of it and punish him for it. You can smash DI towards him while getting hit, probably take about 9% damage, and chances are you can hit him with a rock smash, squirtles fair, or bullet seed before he can recover from the lag. If you get really good at this it forces him to use mostly nair, making him more predictable and eliminating a lot of his range. Also, this is a matchup where you need to TECH DTHROWS every single time- in a direction. If you dont you either take a dsmash to the face, a jab to grab again if you arent ready, or if u tech in place an utilt to nair nair upb combo that does over 50%.

 

[MaTA]

Charizard *****... bair and flamethrower

 

[Vermy]

flamethrower = full bucket. Get *****.

 

[MaTA]

ha full bucket...who cares. do you know how weak that is? let him fill it up. it'll do nothing. After its done being filled hes going to get hit by all the rest. Not like half the gaw actually hits with it too.

 

[Vermy]

dthrow>bucket. gg.

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

if gaw has a full bucket, all he has to do is bait an air dodge or dthrow>bucket as previously mentioned. however, you shouldnt be using flamethrower in a way that allows gaw to predict it and use the bucket, cause using the bucket leaves him wide open for attack especially since he has to be near char for it to work

 

[Steeler]

yeah if you are smart about it, you can flamethrower gw anyway because he really doesn't want to mispredict and eat a free rock smash or something.

 

[MaTA]

dthrow > bucket > tech > own

flamethrower is great against him. along with back airs. and when they are jumping and using their bair run under and upsmash.

 

[Steeler]

that only works if they double jump bair. otherwise the turtle is a ***** and you can't do all that much about it.

 

[T-block]

Yeah Flamethrower's range is too good to not use against GW. If you use short bursts he shouldn't be able to bucket it without prediction, and as Steeler said, that can be punished.

...but this isn't a matchup discussion thread guys.

 

[anax4aero]

Ok...

So what about Norfair? There are several ledges to increase recovery options, there's platforms for PT to work on, Ivy shouldn't suffer from fire because it shouldn't be used much, and because G&W is so light the fire and lava could be deadly. Also, the ceiling of the stage is not too high, and if gimped there's a slight chance lava can save us.

 

[Steeler]

norfair is like one of gw's best stages that isn't green greens or rainbow cruise

 

[Fearmy]

can't GaW also soak up the lasers in Coerneria, which i think was considered our best stage back in my time :/

edit: nevermind, it's banned now. are we playing a different version of brawl? brawl+ or balanced brawl?