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DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

Bobwithlobsters

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Does anyone else use ddd's down air much? I feel it is one of his more underrated moves. Using it falling it has a bunch of landing lag but considering it isn't very hard to auto cancel it I dont find that to be much of a problem. When recovering high I like to fast fall down air as a mix up. The timing is harder for auto canceling it while fast falling but it really trends to catch people off guard.

On the same note I try to use up air more too but I get punished too often because it is so easy to punish if they air dodge through it.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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I NEVER use U-Air, but I sure do use D-Air often. I often use it and take advantage of it's range to punish jugglers that come after me when I'm airborne- People like Marth or MK. D-Air is also pretty cool when used after a ledgejump. And yeah, I do mixup my falling momentum as well and sometimes catch them off-guard when I'm really high above thank to DDD's excellent FF speed.
 

ぱみゅ

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I only use Uair like two or three times a match under certain circumstances to try to condition the opponent to shield (on platform) or airdodge, then bait and punish.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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I never bother using it because it looks very SDI'able and I don't like the ending lag. I'd prefer a combination of F-Air/N-Air for juggles.
 

Bobwithlobsters

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Another thing you can use dair for is if you double jump dair right above the ground it is a fantastic way to pressure spot dodge happy opponents as you land. Also relatively safe on shield as you can always fast fall and auto cancel it.

I tend to use dair to much. It is mk habits. I tend to try and dair camp with ddd which doesn't tend to work as well as with mk...
 

CourageHound

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:) Hello all you Dededes!

Another thing you can use dair for is if you double jump dair right above the ground it is a fantastic way to pressure spot dodge happy opponents as you land. Also relatively safe on shield as you can always fast fall and auto cancel it.

I tend to use dair to much. It is mk habits. I tend to try and dair camp with ddd which doesn't tend to work as well as with mk...
I like DDD's D-air alot.
As you said I use down air for pressuring. I find it pretty usefull against ground oriented opponents or ones that try to assualt me while I'm in the air.

Also I find as long as your high enough dair camping is pretty viable depending on your positioning and your opponent. I often mix it up into a fast falled bair, reverse inhale, or FFAD > up tilt. His falling speed is what really makes it effective.
 

Exdeath

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First of all, this actually isn't true. You can catch the opponent off-guard by performing a quick maneuver like FF (AD, if necessary)/Spot-dodge/roll > utilt. The FF > utilt, in particular, is VERY effective because of how fast DDD falls. At this point, the maneuver goes from the opponent "making a mistake or rolling into you" to you simply outplaying your opponent through reads and mix-ups. Sure, if all opponents were smarter/had more common sense, utilt would be a lot less effective, but it would still be a useful kill move in many scenarios (assuming the DDD knows how to use his traits in mix-ups).

Secondly, even if what you said is true, basically half the game is just making/taking advantage of mistakes and rolls. This is Brawl. Defensive play is the name of the game. Falco is going to try to Phantasm through you sometimes if you corner him. If you read that, you get a free utilt. Yes, the Falco essentially "made a mistake", but it's a reasonable one that can be expected to happen during some matches because of how the MU works. Same thing goes for Fox Illusion, Snake's DACUS, etc. DDD is a read-heavy character. If you're playing him, then you have to be able to catch those mistakes and thus land utilts or grabs or bairs or whatever action you have lined up to punish said mistakes. One of the reasons DDD is a High Tier character is not because he gets 'free' stuff, but because the severity of a punish from one of his reads is unusually large.


You're going to have to show me a video example of you or someone else utilizing this strat you're mentioning to kill someone at such low %'s. As I'm understanding your wording, it seems like you're nailing your opponent with a read (of his drifting AD) that gets him killed (because he's) near a blastzone. That makes Waddle Dee Toss neither "reliable" nor an actual "kill move", since lots of attacks can achieve similar results with similar reads near a blastzone. In addition, you admitted yourself that "this situation rarely occurs outside of Peach and spacies." That hardly makes this move "practical" overall, since it applies only to specific scenarios in a few select MUs. In general, I can see how Waddle Dees/Doos could be useful in the regard that you are stating, but I don't think that makes them 'better' or 'more practical' than his established kill moves.


I surmise that you must not do so well against Diddy... :p
It never ceases to frustrate me how you half-read my posts and misunderstand me as a result. I said that non-Side B attacks should only really land against spacies and Peach, which is why it's good. If you think that air dodge>Utilt is a reasonable mix-up then there's not much to comment on.

Also, I've beaten every :diddy: that I've played against...
 

bubbaking

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You actually don't think FF AD > utilt is a good mix-up? Why the heck are you playing this character? :facepalm: You have the greatest (fast) fall speed in the game. USE IT! :smash: I've won almost impossible matches against MKs because of that one mix-up taking it home for me at least once a match. I'd like to know what good Diddys you've played against that allowed you to think that Waddles at neutral were "horrible". :c
 

bubbaking

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Does anyone else use ddd's down air much?
Lolz, I use dair all the time! :p It's probably my most frequently used non-bair aerial. I like to FH dair with it when I feel 'troubled' on the ground. Just make sure you don't land with it. I use uair a lot too. I love that move as a 'poke' when my opponent is high above me. I'll often mix up between that, usmash, utilt, and just trying to punish the opponent's landing with something like a grab. I FF the uair at the end to keep it from being punishable. That avoids all those problems of people SDIing or ADing out of/through it. Still, if you 'drift' with it properly, it actually catches all of these things. The move also kills, you know. ;)

I often mix it up into a fast falled bair, reverse inhale, or FFAD > up tilt. His falling speed is what really makes it effective.
This guy knows what's up. Take notes Exdeath! :smirk:
 
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Deleted member 189823

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How do you do the FFAD U-Tilt, exactly? I think I'm doing it wrong. Do you AD or FF first?
 

bubbaking

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You can buffer in the utilt during the AD to perform the fastest possible utilt in the same way you can buffer it in during a spot-dodge/roll. It's actually quite effective when you factor in not only how fast he falls but also the relatively quick invincibility of his utilt.
 
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Deleted member 189823

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Awesome.
Do you know if this works most of the time even when they expect it, or is it just situational and a surprise kill?
 

bubbaking

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Nothing works when the opponent expects it unless he has already committed to a mistake that would open him up to it anyway (which is when optimal S/DI comes in). In other words, the answer is no, this won't work if the opponent expects it. Most (good) kill moves in Brawl are 'situational surprise kills' but this is more than just one that works once in a blue moon. You FF AD as a mix-up or a reaction to the opponent coming up at you or doing something laggy. When you land, you can throw out the utilt as a mix-up which would complement your other options in that situations (grab, shield, etc). In addition, you can also utilt as a reaction to something your opponent did while you landed. The best way to really put this is the execution is simple but the application is not. You have to come up with ways to make it work, just like with most of DDD's good techs. CGs are mostly easy, but how do you CG if you can't grab?
 
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Deleted member 189823

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Hmmm...yeah. I think this would work well against Olimars that would be silly enough to U-Smash you when you're a little above the air (assuming they can't reach you with U-Smash) and you surprise butt secks KO them with it.

Does U-Tilt when the opponent tries to tech roll through you?
 

Bobwithlobsters

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My favorite use of u tilt is using it to stuff moves using the invincibility frames. It makes people less comfortable trying to throw out safe things on your shield. Like mk tornado, but at least with tornado o have to expect it. I can't just do it on reaction. Really fun to u tilt rising aerials with out much disjoint like wario's or lucario's fairs.
 

CourageHound

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I know u-tilt covers Dedede but i always seem to be in a rough spot when i'm sheilding and my opponent is behind me just outside of u-tilts' range. The only safe Oos option I can think of is SH Bair but could be shielded. Maybe a roll would do?
 

Bobwithlobsters

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My oos options has this basic flow chart. If in front of me shield grab if out of range of that back roll. If behind me bair. If out of range of bair why are you in your shield and not already bairing?
 

CourageHound

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I see, thanks for the tip

Lastly, I wanted to know how much priority the decending version of super dedede jump has, if any at all, cuz i've seen just about any aerial beat it out.
 

bubbaking

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I actually don't think it has that much priority (read: disjoint). It's all over DDD's body, I think, and DDD is big, so the hitbox is big but it doesn't actually extend far from his hurtbox. If you upB predictably, most people can and will hit you with their kill moves.

As for shield options, I'm surprised no one mentioned spot-dodge. I will spot-dodge sometimes when I'm too close to an opponent with fast moves, even if I could shieldgrab him. Why? Because the fast moves will probably stuff my grab. Examples are Falco's jab, all of MK's moves, etc. You could ask: why don't I just keep my shield up? The answer is simple. If a char has fast moves capable of stuffing out your grab, then those moves are clearly mix-up compliments to his own grab. Spot-dodge option-selects those things and lets DDD potentially punish the whiff. Don't spam it, though. :smash:
 

Xubble

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Random Xubble appears!

So on my base, there's a Brawl tourney tomorrow. Doing Dedede and ICies. Maaaaaybe Sheik too. I don't know how many on base are good, but here's hoping I'm better!
 

Bobwithlobsters

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Does anyone have any suggestions for fighting against shiek? Tech chase was going to do a write up for me a while back but I think he forgot. With the experience I've had with it it is real easy to end up getting conditioned by shiek do to her ability to move so fast. I ended up stuck in my shield too much and she could just run circles around me. I'm thinking I needed to set the pace of the match more by zoning her out more with bair as I don't think her aerials can beat out bair but I'm not sure.

Xubble you better remember to let us know how your tourney goes. I hope you do well.
 

DewDaDash

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So I was testing out a very unconventional way to kill with d3. It doesn't quite work on all characters, well the shorter ones not really unless they are already in the air. So like against falco, if they are on the ground you fast fall an up-air and try to hit them with it a bit so it can link with an up tilt once they are stunned. Going to try this in tourney and see how it works.
 

bubbaking

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Does anyone have any suggestions for fighting against shiek? Tech chase was going to do a write up for me a while back but I think he forgot. With the experience I've had with it it is real easy to end up getting conditioned by shiek do to her ability to move so fast. I ended up stuck in my shield too much and she could just run circles around me. I'm thinking I needed to set the pace of the match more by zoning her out more with bair as I don't think her aerials can beat out bair but I'm not sure.
Yeah, Sheik is kinda like Fox in that she mind-****s you with her speed, she can do quite a bit of damage when she gets in, and she can out-camp DDD. The only decent Sheik I've played a bit with is Dcold on LI. In some ways, I find Sheik to be easier than Fox because although she can rack up damage from camping and getting inside DDD, she can't reliably kill until, like, 160% and it has to be with a fresh usmash, so she's gonna have to fish for that one time to DACUS and as long as you remain aware that is Sheik's only real kill move (unlike Fox's usmash, uair, and bair), you can stay alive awhile. Additionally, I think DDD can kill Sheik with utilt earlier than he can kill Fox. However, on the other hand, I find Sheik to be harder than Fox in some ways because she can be harder to gimp unless you hit her out far enough (in which case, she's actually a lot easier to gimp), and her needles can be more annoying.

In general, I just do what I usually do. Shieldgrab, tilt, and bair what I can. Sorry I can't really be of much help. :(

So I was testing out a very unconventional way to kill with d3. It doesn't quite work on all characters, well the shorter ones not really unless they are already in the air. So like against falco, if they are on the ground you fast fall an up-air and try to hit them with it a bit so it can link with an up tilt once they are stunned. Going to try this in tourney and see how it works.
I actually thought of this a while ago. It doesn't really work because uair can be SDI'd.
 

bubbaking

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Been a couple hours.

Any of you guys have any advice, tips, tips, strategies, etc for using DDD in doubles?
Dthrow is one of the best team moves in the game. Even for chars you can't CG, dthrow always reliably sends the opponent into a trajectory that your partner can easily take advantage of. In addition, if you dthrow an un-CGable opponent and they don't tech it, your opponent can jab lock them. In a 2v1 situation, that means a free fsmash from DDD. I used to team with my Ness main friend and we had some really mean 2v1 setups. If I dthrew an un-CGable opponent and they missed the tech, he would jab lock them to the other side of the stage, at which point, I'd join in with my own jabs. It was hilarious. :rotfl:

In addition, for chars you CAN CG, you can dthrow them into your teammate's grab. Ness has a really good pummel, so after I dthrew my opponent into him, he would pummel release him (regular ground release worked too, so missing the pummel release wasn't a big deal) them into my grab again. Just make sure your teammate is aware of the trajectory DDD's dthrow sends at and the fact that he can do pretty much anything he wants off of it.

Also, nair sends upwards, so you can use it offstage to save teammates who need it.
 

ぱみゅ

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I think the easiest way to put it is:
John Madden
don't get frustrated, get few openings and you'll somehow end with like a bazillion damage and a dead opponent. Almost works for me except when I read a roll I always hit them in the first frame they can PS, or end up almost killing with utilts. It's frustrating in several ways.
 

bubbaking

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I played against Orion's Fox in friendlies a couple weeks ago. We went pretty much dead even, and the guy's a better Brawl player than me. That MU is definitely no worse than even for DDD. His attacks are too hard to perfectly space for him to never get shieldgrabbed, one grab can lead to a lot of silly damage, and utilt can bust through his moves if timed well (I killed him once by utilting through his usmash, since utilt gives invincibility).

You guys got any tips for what to to when being pressured hard?
Space well, our forte is at mid-range in a lot of MUs. Learn to be able to identify openings when you can shieldgrab. Spot-dodge is suitable at times to put a break in pressure. Jump dair is also a nifty response to pressure. Our rolls are also pretty good, especially b-roll.
 
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