**Diddy Kong [Old] General Match-Ups**

[Kaptain Kong]

wheres Vyse?
please come switch the character!

 

[Vyse]

We've actually done Lucario twice lol.
This week is Ice Climbers.

I think there's a vid of Nanerz wrecking an IC's player on youtube somewhere...
Well I know there is because I downloaded the match for use with the Community combo video.

 

[AvaricePanda]

I haven't played any really good Ice Climbers, so I only really know the match-up on paper.

This match-up is a pain for any character that gets grabbed, although Diddy has it easier than a lot of other characters. Everyone knows to seperate Nana from Popo so they can't chaingrab you, and Diddy can do this quite well by spacing with bananas/bairs and doing a GT to throw.

Don't approach with sheildgrabbable aerials like Fair, and don't let the ICs control your bananas, because then you're screwed. Other than that...

...meh, someone else with actual IC experience needs to comment on this.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I have fought my friend who plays IC's a few times. I don't know much about IC's, nor much about Diddy (just picked him up), but I do know bananas are a bittersweet move. When they are under your control, the CG stops when you reach them (unless you are at high %), because the other Climber picks up the banana, so he can't grab you anymore. If you are at high % they can do a quick Down/Up-banana throw and continue the CG + having banana control. When they control them, they have free CG game, as well as C-stick being a *****. Forward on C-stick is both a banana on you AND a F-smash for you. Don't go spamming bananas at higher %. Banana's are also quite hard to use, because it only trips one of the IC's. Focus more on spacing in this matchup. SH Blizzard is a pain too because i have trouble getting past it. It might be inexpierence, it might be not. If you want to kill Nana, when IC uses up-B without sweetspotting, throw a banana on Nana (lol) and he stops rising. When you are fighting one IC, go crazy with your bananas. High %, grab = death with the Smashes out of grabs.
In the air you are the dominant force. Airdodge their D-air and punish it or throw a banana at it. U-air is a real juggler, I'm not sure if Diddy's D-air beats it. Your F-air has a lot of range, use it when fighting in the air. Approaching is where I have most trouble, because a grab is useless against IC's, they shield whatever I do with them, bananas they take control of. It's mostly a bait and punish situation.
This isn't a very favorable matchup. I'd say 60:40 IC advantage, but my numbers may be off because off inexpierence O_o

EDIT: When you are in Ice Block lock (some like to do that O_o) DI+SDI away as hard as you can. P-1 has some good tips too.

 

[Player-1]

Against a lot of IC players I like to spam banana throws > dash attack a WHOLE lot. It keeps them separated very well, so if one so happens to grab you the other probably won't be around for the CG. Using Usmash after the dash attack works really well as well. As you face better and better IC this gets harder, obviously. Go ahead and spam, but spam smartly, make sure you're still spacing well and all that stuff. Spamming Diddy's Fsmash works pretty well too.

Nanas is dumb so when she's off the stage try to spike here or gimp her. Diddy's throws are fast so the other IC won't be able to react to the grab as fast as most characters and their grabs.

IC have their Ice block which are really annoying because Diddy's bananas bounce off of them so IC camping you works well. Diddy is also one of the easiest characters to be CGed by IC, not sure if it's ALL of the CGs, but I know the Dthrow > Fair > Ice block is easier on Diddy than other characters IC 's.

Your best stages are probably YI and BF for neutrals and RC and PS1 for CPs. Maybe Norfair? YI and BF both have platforms which can hurt the IC player if they rely on grabs to much. You can also DI towards the wall of YI when you can Dthrow> Fair spike and then tech it.

Rainbow Cruise hurts their recovery and it hurts their grab/Chain grab game. PS1 interrupts their CGs in between the stage transformation. I'm not sure about Norfair. On one hand it helps their recovery greatly, but on the other hand it hurts their CGs. I really don't know, it was just something that came to mind when I thought about it.

The IC boards have matchup at 50:50 which I agree with as well.

 

[ADHD]

This matchup is so deep sometimes!

Once you get a trip, throw-juggle the ICs as much as possible and dash attack alot when they're vunerable. You want them desynced and helpless. Don't forget the side b to footstool combo Basically, don't make mistakes, lol.

 

[fource]

I HATE this match-up. The worst circumstance I have ever been in is when both Popo and Nana grabbed both of my bananas. YOU CAN'T APPROACH THEM. All of IC's special moves have priority over Diddy's attacks. It's awful.

Overall, it's pretty even. If you get grabbed three times. GG.

Want to elaborate on monkey flip foot stool?

 

[ADHD]

I think its slightly in diddy's favor or 60-40 for him. It's just very difficult to handle at first.

BTW: Side b grab offstage, hold towards the direction you've side b'd in while you are latched on, and immediately when you release press jump and it will footstool them into the KO zone down below.

 

[DFEAR]

ive played snipas ice climbers and yea. dont get grabbed haha. thats a given. they have a projectile which can easily be deflected by ur dtilt and their side b can be punished very easily. do not be above ice climbers their upair/upb/uptilt is really beast, their other arials not so much. never get grabbed. they can easily rack damage with their downb blizzard when blown in the same direction. never get grabbed. popo cant spike but is stronger. nana can spike but is very weak and lighter. never get grabbed. our bananas easily seperate the two. go for the cpu asap. gimp asap. spacing and semi-camping is almost certain here. make your dash attack usages in smart ways. side b can gimp them as chrome said. im gonna give this to diddy but very little 55:45 ONLY because we can easily seperate and gimp them. but i know ice climbers are pro ****. if only nana didnt suicide herself haha.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Ignore my write-up, I'm not picking up Diddy yet O_o. I get 2 stocked by a dude who never played diddy before.

 

[Wolydarg]

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions:

IC have their Ice block which are really annoying because Diddy's bananas bounce off of them so IC camping you works well. Diddy is also one of the easiest characters to be CGed by IC, not sure if it's ALL of the CGs, but I know the Dthrow > Fair > Ice block is easier on Diddy than other characters IC 's.

Your best stages are probably YI and BF for neutrals and RC and PS1 for CPs. Maybe Norfair? YI and BF both have platforms which can hurt the IC player if they rely on grabs to much. You can also DI towards the wall of YI when you can Dthrow> Fair spike and then tech it.

I'm not sure about Norfair. On one hand it helps their recovery greatly, but on the other hand it hurts their CGs. I really don't know, it was just something that came to mind when I thought about it.

D/Fthrow -> Fair = Techable, esp. if you get chained to the edge, SDI like you would Falco's cg-spike, and you can tech it, if you miss the tech, you'll get an ice block, which will force you to stand up, and you get grabbed again.

Platforms are really weird for IC. On one hand, it forces some IC's who can't CG well to screw up, but on the other hand, it's pretty hard to approach IC's while they're under a platform. And as mentioned before, cg to spike is techable, so most IC mains will instead just CG you until you're above 100% and then throw you into the other climber who has a charged upsmash waiting.

Norfair does not hurt our CG. Diddy is light, against light characters it's all about the b-throw->dthrow, which doesn't move you around much. Don't pick norfair against people with tethers in general.

Now that that's out of the way, the rest of this post is pure theory, as I played my friend's Diddy and got owned. I'm not claiming to be as competent as Lain and Meep, but theory is theory.

Nana is dumb,when separated, play against her like she's a level 2 CPU who's only focus in life is to be next to Popo. So charge smashes, spike, etc.

A single nana can still trip both IC's if they're close to each other.

Diddy has a really easy time separating them, but it's really hard to keep momentum going against IC's, as one grab and everything can be reset and you can be down a stock. Conversely, it's hard for IC's to get that grab.
However, don't play ******** in trying to avoid the grab. So many people see the 0-death and run into many aerials and whatnot. IC's are not only about CG's, they can do surprising damage (charged dsmash with two IC's is about 50% lol) and can juggle rather well with just uair.

Will add more if I can think of anything

 

[Player-1]

Just wanted to clear up some misconceptions:



D/Fthrow -> Fair = Techable, esp. if you get chained to the edge, SDI like you would Falco's cg-spike, and you can tech it, if you miss the tech, you'll get an ice block, which will force you to stand up, and you get grabbed again.

Platforms are really weird for IC. On one hand, it forces some IC's who can't CG well to screw up, but on the other hand, it's pretty hard to approach IC's while they're under a platform. And as mentioned before, cg to spike is techable, so most IC mains will instead just CG you until you're above 100% and then throw you into the other climber who has a charged upsmash waiting.

Norfair does not hurt our CG. Diddy is light, against light characters it's all about the b-throw->dthrow, which doesn't move you around much. Don't pick norfair against people with tethers in general.

Now that that's out of the way, the rest of this post is pure theory, as I played my friend's Diddy and got owned. I'm not claiming to be as competent as Lain and Meep, but theory is theory.

Nana is dumb,when separated, play against her like she's a level 2 CPU who's only focus in life is to be next to Popo. So charge smashes, spike, etc.

A single nana can still trip both IC's if they're close to each other.

Diddy has a really easy time separating them, but it's really hard to keep momentum going against IC's, as one grab and everything can be reset and you can be down a stock. Conversely, it's hard for IC's to get that grab.
However, don't play ******** in trying to avoid the grab. So many people see the 0-death and run into many aerials and whatnot. IC's are not only about CG's, they can do surprising damage (charged dsmash with two IC's is about 50% lol) and can juggle rather well with just uair.

Will add more if I can think of anything

I said that the CG > Dair is techable and that's why YI is probably your best neutral stage against them...

Edit: and my point about Norfair possibly being good against them wasn't that you guys need ot more for CGs (which I already knew you didn't have to), but it was that the lava hurts the CG when it is rising. Most Diddy's camp the bottom platform so if lava moves up at all then the CG will go away. The only good thing for ICs on Norfair that I see is that it's harder for Nana's to be gimped, but if you are camping the bottom platform and you have 2 bananas on it, then you REALLY can't CG unless it's Bthrow > Bthrow >Bthrow, because the Bthrow > Dthrow won't work on that small little area with 2 bananas on the ground.

 

[Wolydarg]

I said that the CG > Dair is techable and that's why YI is probably your best neutral stage against them...

Edit: and my point about Norfair possibly being good against them wasn't that you guys need ot more for CGs (which I already knew you didn't have to), but it was that the lava hurts the CG when it is rising. Most Diddy's camp the bottom platform so if lava moves up at all then the CG will go away. The only good thing for ICs on Norfair that I see is that it's harder for Nana's to be gimped, but if you are camping the bottom platform and you have 2 bananas on it, then you REALLY can't CG unless it's Bthrow > Bthrow >Bthrow, because the Bthrow > Dthrow won't work on that small little area with 2 bananas on the ground.

Oh, I get what you mean by Norfair being good now, I misunderstood you, I apologize. Yeah, I'll have to agree that Norfair would be good because the IC's can't CG, but by going norfair you sacrifice the ability to easily gimp (with 3 spikes you can still probably gimp rather well, but lava also works against you now) and IC's without infinites is definitely more competent than Diddy without nana's (this sentence here mainly because I wanted to use a clever analogy). But yeah, if CG's scare you, norfair definitely negates it.

But as for the CG-Dair, let me clarify.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn2n4IXrg_Q&fmt=18
1:47 - Marth SDI's right and lands back on the stage, with good DI the spike should never happen on any map. YI or not.

 

[Sanzi]

1. RC is the best choice for a cp. Anything with platforms is good
2. Keep them desynched by dash attacking and throwing naners
3. Get nana off the level and always attempt a spike
4. Use peanuts more efficiently
5. Always stay close to your naners so they can't trip you with one and grab
6. Ftilt to push them, utilt when they're above you. Tilts in general are good
7. Dribble and glide toss backwards more often in this matchup
8. Approach from above and throw naners down
9. Spam fsmash all day, with good spacing so it's hard to shieldgrab

This is what people came up with for my thread, hope this helps.

 

[ADHD]

I would NOT counterpick rainbow cruise on an ice climber player lol, it's a death trap. Good ICs usually have strong back-up characters for cps like these. You might be dealing with a DDD who'll just wall infinite you -_-

 

[Player-1]

I would NOT counterpick rainbow cruise on an ice climber player lol, it's a death trap. Good ICs usually have strong back-up characters for cps like these. You might be dealing with a DDD who'll just wall infinite you -_-

but RC is Diddy's best stage

 

[Player-3]

but RC is Diddy's best neutral stage

Fix'd for correctness

 

[Player-1]

How do people feel about Frigate against the ICs?

 

[ADHD]

frigate sucks, against anyone...

 

[TreK]

do slopes stop CGs ?

 

[Player-1]

frigate sucks, against anyone...

what's wrong with frigate?

 

[Kaptain Kong]

i dont like stages that gimp you, even the opponent
cuz then they start johning about it, and youre like "its not my fault, it was the stage," and theyre like "its your fault for choosing it," even though you cp'ed it for just that reason

w/e though, thats usually just in friendlies

 

[ADHD]

what's wrong with frigate?

That platform that rises up and down, if you end up under it you're going to get hit. It's even dumber that wario players cp this sometimes, and it can become a fart >_<

 

[Teh Future]

platforms are not necessarily good in this matchup. You do not want to be on a platform over ice climbers because their upair will eat you alive. I watched AZ vs. Meep and Meep messed up a lot. He had a lot of opportunitys that he didn't take advantage of. You have to be very careful about banana control in this match because if ICs can get control of just one banana it is potentially one of your stocks.

I think this is potentially one of diddy's worst matchups.

Frigate is dumb, ice climbers rarely grab the ledge when recovering the only person if would mess up is the diddy.

Edit: ok before everyone passes me off as not knowing what im talking about because you dont know who I am just watch this match and notice how many times Meep grabs AZ and how many times he messes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UInyBFxQDU&feature=related

 

[white peachy]

I don't think it's necessarily one of his "worst" matchups but it certainly is one of his dumbest, along with Olimar IMO. Luckily for Diddy, you can play to avoid the infinite grabs fairly well if you contiously look to avoid them. You don't have to change your playstyle as much as say Luigi or Marth, but you definitely have to make some adjustments to be successsful.

I'd say probably a slight advantage for the IC's. But it's a very stage-dependent type of matchup.

 

[Player-1]

That platform that rises up and down, if you end up under it you're going to get hit. It's even dumber that wario players cp this sometimes, and it can become a fart >_<

But this applies to any character, not just Diddy....

@Future, I don't think you play that many good ICs if you think they 'rarely' grab the ledge...they'll try to avoid grabbing the ledge by using their side-b, but that's not always an option. The ledge never seems to mess me up that much, or have led to game-costing moments for me. Here are the advantages I can see on frigate:

-IC's recovery becomes more gimpable, you can also barrel spike through it if they're recovering from under you
-The platform that moves up and down is a double-edged sword. On one hand if ICs get the spike off of you, you're pretty much ****ed. But when the platform is down and you are on the main part of the stage then it's harder to be spiked
-Nanas is dumb, getting them separated with a banana off the side of the stage with no ledges then you can take a huge advantage over that.
-The flipping of the stage can ruin their CGs, but it can possibly gimp you, most likely BOTH of you if you get flipped underneath the stage since they have to be near to you in order to CG
-The slopes on the 2nd part of the stage can mess with their CGs sometimes
-They can't camp you with Ice Blocks on the 2nd part of the stage because the Ice Blocks won't go uphill so you can camp a bit on this part of the stage.
-The flipping of the stage can separate the ICs sometimes, and Nanas is still dumb and can be gimped easier.

 

[Teh Future]

@Future, I don't think you play that many good ICs if you think they 'rarely' grab the ledge...they'll try to avoid grabbing the ledge by using their side-b, but that's not always an option. The ledge never seems to mess me up that much, or have led to game-costing moments for me. Here are the advantages I can see on frigate:

I main ICs...

This is just wrong btw. 99% of the time squall is the best option for recovering. Generally upB is only used to save nana.

 

[Kaptain Kong]

But this applies to any character, not just Diddy....

@Future, I don't think you play that many good ICs if you think they 'rarely' grab the ledge...they'll try to avoid grabbing the ledge by using their side-b, but that's not always an option. The ledge never seems to mess me up that much, or have led to game-costing moments for me. Here are the advantages I can see on frigate:

-IC's recovery becomes more gimpable, you can also barrel spike through it if they're recovering from under you
-The platform that moves up and down is a double-edged sword. On one hand if ICs get the spike off of you, you're pretty much ****ed. But when the platform is down and you are on the main part of the stage then it's harder to be spiked
-Nanas is dumb, getting them separated with a banana off the side of the stage with no ledges then you can take a huge advantage over that.
-The flipping of the stage can ruin their CGs, but it can possibly gimp you, most likely BOTH of you if you get flipped underneath the stage since they have to be near to you in order to CG
-The slopes on the 2nd part of the stage can mess with their CGs sometimes
-They can't camp you with Ice Blocks on the 2nd part of the stage because the Ice Blocks won't go uphill so you can camp a bit on this part of the stage.
-The flipping of the stage can separate the ICs sometimes, and Nanas is still dumb and can be gimped easier.

you make a very convincing arguement, but the stage only flips once in a while, which could mess up their chain throw, but chances are, they'll deal maximum damage before it flips, or use a smash on you to end it

also, with the ice block camping, they can just jump and have the ice blocks hit the platform and im pretty sure that they'll make it up the slope

if i played ics, i would want to go for the edge, why would they risk getting punished when they can grab the edge?

 

[Player-1]

I main ICs...

This is just wrong btw. 99% of the time squall is the best option for recovering. Generally upB is only used to save nana.

I'm...not quite getting why that was wrong...I just said squal is not ALWAYS an option...lol...


@ Kaptain Kong:

Any stage that can mess up the ICs CG should be considered for a CG, even if it's not that much, because we don't have that many great CPs that give either character a big advantage. And either way, wouldn't you rather them smash you earlier than for them to continue their CG?

It still hinders their camping, it slows it down to the point where you can camp better with peanuts and punish their approach with a banana.

IDK why, I just know that ICs use squall for, well I wouldn't go as far as to say '99%' of the time like future because I play good ICs and they use it a lot more than '99%' of the time. I think it's just to get Nanas a safer travel path back to the stage, the squall has pretty good priority and hits from the front and back of them and recovers VERY well when you have both ICs

 

[Kaptain Kong]

i see what you mean, but do you think this is the best stage to cp?

 

[Teh Future]

I'm...not quite getting why that was wrong...I just said squal is not ALWAYS an option...lol...

If Ice Climbers use upB to recover, just wait until nana grabs the ledge then run off and fair popo. 1 stock gone. ICs side B is usually the best option because it offers amazing mobility and it is really fast. You can use squall to teleport to the top of the screen above the player or drop from the top below the player coming up to hit you.

Stage counterpicking is hard because both characters are usually best on neutral stages. So idk really but all im saying is that frigate is most likely going to mess up Diddy's recovery more than ICs.

 

[Player-1]

i see what you mean, but do you think this is the best stage to cp?

No, I believe Rainbow Cruise is.

@ Future, ...how many times do I have to say this...SQUAL IS NOT ALWAYS AN OPTION!!!!! I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T BETTER, I'M SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T RECOVER FROM SOME PLACES WITH SQUALL THAT YOU CAN WITH THEIR UP-B!!!!! I hope that got through your head. And no, the stage is definitively going to hurt ICs recovery more than Diddys.

 

[Teh Future]

squall recovery goes farther than upB vertically and horizontally...

 

[Player-1]

squall recovery goes farther than upB vertically and horizontally...

Their up-b goes further for Popo, I think, not quite sure.

 

[Diddyknight]

It goes furthur for Popo but their squall recovery is there best option. Depending on situations there Belay will be useful. I honestly prefer Squall Recovery. Keep them seperate XD

 

[TreK]

do slopes stop CGs ?

reasking
cus i'm pretty good on corneria and lylat

 

[ADHD]

reasking
cus i'm pretty good on corneria and lylat

lylat does occasionally, corneria i'm not sure about, its a different kind of slope.

 

[Hylian]

It goes furthur for Popo but their squall recovery is there best option. Depending on situations there Belay will be useful. I honestly prefer Squall Recovery. Keep them seperate XD

No, squall goes higher for popo as well. Jump + Squall can get you out of the magnifying glass at the bottom of FD, while jump + belay cannot.



IMO diddy is one of IC's hardest match-ups. To edgeguard them try sniping their squall with a banana. Nana will just fall straight down to her death lol.

 

[Kaptain Kong]

huh thats a good tip i always try to peanut but it never works...

i never knew squall was such a good recovery move
do you just have to tap jump really quickly?

 

[Player-1]

But can't you get them desynched out of the squall with something like a banana pluck? Like you would with Luigi? Then they're left falling to their doom afterward.