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Diddy Kong Whining/Defense Thread

Lil Puddin

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How can he not beat Diddy?

He takes away the banana, and can space Diddy out O.o whats Diddy got over him?
Faster direct attacks and better movement speed. Villager has a hard time using his panic spacing Fair or Bair against characters that are his size or smaller.

Any aggressive character makes Villager cry. Diddy is a bum rush character with a littering fetish. Taking away the banana hurts but... A good Diddy can make you take a peanut first and then throw a peel in your face. Even without the banana the match is still even, but zoning is always much harder than rushing unless you're Mario or ZSS.
 

Spatman

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. Especially online. I'd rather just not fight him.
offline I beat almost every player I play against, with a creative combatstyle. Online, lag and imput delay destroy my style, often I'm not able to do either the easiest combo, or use correctly the up air. I think there are other characters who are much annoying to engage online.

I think diddy is now one of the strongest characters, but not the unlimited best. Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina, I think, are at least as strong as diddy.
I could approve a little nerf to diddy, but in that case also the forementioned characters should be nerfed.
And, seriously, all the whining complaints about the necessity of his ban start to become ridiculous
 

Dissent

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How can he not beat Diddy?

He takes away the banana, and can space Diddy out O.o whats Diddy got over him?
If you start camping with our banana then our peanuts will outcamp you and your slingshot on stages that are SV-sized. Plant your tree all you want, it dies eventually. Villagers seem to have this mindset that it's this incredibly useful wall. If we just shield the multihits/roll through it while it's standing, you're likely going to get punished because you were relying on it as a wall instead of a spacing tool. Diddy wins the MU pretty solidly, especially because Diddy is rarely going to give you his banana. Villagers tend to think we're one dimensional so I often do something fun like forward JCTossUp causing them to go for the whiffed pocket.

Oh, and Diddy should never be separated from his banana. The first thing a Diddy should do when they pull a banana in this matchup is throw it down once and pick it back up so that when it's thrown next (at likely a hard to punish/unexpected time) it'll just disappear.
 
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Darklink401

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If you start camping with our banana then our peanuts will outcamp you and your slingshot on stages that are SV-sized. Plant your tree all you want, it dies eventually. Villagers seem to have this mindset that it's this incredibly useful wall. If we just shield the multihits/roll through it while it's standing, you're likely going to get punished because you were relying on it as a wall instead of a spacing tool. Diddy wins the MU pretty solidly, especially because Diddy is rarely going to give you his banana. Villagers tend to think we're one dimensional so I often do something fun like forward JCTossUp causing them to go for the whiffed pocket.

Oh, and Diddy should never be separated from his banana. The first thing a Diddy should do when they pull a banana in this matchup is throw it down once and pick it back up so that when it's thrown next (at likely a hard to punish/unexpected time) it'll just disappear.
Hmmm...

Your points are fair...but I'm thinking that this is mostly true against a Villager who is not experienced against Diddy.
Also I thought Diddy WAS a one-trick pony, with that dthrow > aerial XP

Naw, kiddin~

I just feel that right now, as the game is, Villager is one of the better Diddy matchups. I never struggle against them. Struggle against Sheik a lot more.
 

L337m0j0

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I have not played a Diddy who could beat me yet on for glory...but thats not saying much.

I hope these smash boards prove me wrong in a tourney that I participate in! heh
 

Bullys

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Is there really a need for the 3rd or 4th thread on this this week?
 

Dissent

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Hmmm...

Your points are fair...but I'm thinking that this is mostly true against a Villager who is not experienced against Diddy.
Also I thought Diddy WAS a one-trick pony, with that dthrow > aerial XP

Naw, kiddin~

I just feel that right now, as the game is, Villager is one of the better Diddy matchups. I never struggle against them. Struggle against Sheik a lot more.
I've beaten the Villagers I've played in tournament solidly, but I can see where it can be close to even. At worst, I'd say it's +1 Diddy's favor because he has more setups for getting in and staying in. Villager needs to connect with his ground game (high risk/reward long but short range grounded attacks) or he'll be punished, Diddy doesn't often have to because many of his grounded moves are quite safe on block/hard to react to.
 

Darklink401

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I've beaten the Villagers I've played in tournament solidly, but I can see where it can be close to even. At worst, I'd say it's +1 Diddy's favor because he has more setups for getting in and staying in. Villager needs to connect with his ground game (high risk/reward long but short range grounded attacks) or he'll be punished, Diddy doesn't often have to because many of his grounded moves are quite safe on block/hard to react to.
No Villager should stay in the ground near Diddy.

Correction

No one should ever stay in the ground near Diddy if they value their lives


I usually focus on aerials and SOMETIMES shield to punish.
 

Dissent

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No Villager should stay in the ground near Diddy.

Correction

No one should ever stay in the ground near Diddy if they value their lives


I usually focus on aerials and SOMETIMES shield to punish.
So when I approach defensively and force you to the ledge, what option do you use to counter that?
 

Darklink401

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So when I approach defensively and force you to the ledge, what option do you use to counter that?
I love the ledge XP

slingshots and lloids all the way.

But I don't face Diddys enough, I'm just basing this off of paper knowledge.
 

FlareHabanero

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First post in the Diddy threads, but in defense of Diddy and against him, I think he's not that horrible to face against. I think the problem people are having is that Diddy is a wake up call to step up your game and to be less predictable. If you don't read or mix up, Diddy can catch you and will hurt you. Believe me, there's a difference between those brain dead Diddy players and those that are more savvy and will wait for you to do the predictable air dodge or side step, and once you get the taste of how Diddy plays you can start forming your own strategies to beat it.

However even with that in mind, I'll admit that toning down the up aerial at least to not make it piss easy to use and master would not be a bad idea. I'm actually not in the crowd of striping away everything Diddy Kong has since I feel that it wouldn't be fair to the Diddy Kong mains, more like alter the biggest offenses with Diddy to make the character more fair and to discourage brain dead down throw up aerial stuff.
 
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Player-1

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How can he not beat Diddy?

He takes away the banana, and can space Diddy out O.o whats Diddy got over him?
As dissent and lil puddin pointed out already, Diddy doesn't rely on bananas in this game, it's just icing on the cake.Grabbing the banana also isn't the easiest thing to do when you mix it in with popgun and diddy making sure whenever he pulls a banana he throws it down once so the next time it's thrown it disappears. Dtilt is really good against villager, Frame 4 grounded move with good range, normally it isn't the greatest move because of how unsafe on shield it is, but villager can't shield grab it. Diddy is fast character with good range on a lot of his attacks, he can get in close enough to villager without putting himself within range of villager's grounded options/nair which helps a lot.

I don't think the MU is bad for villager, or anything, but I do think diddy wins like +1 or 55-45.
 

CJTHeroofTime

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Hopefully when people whip out everything they've been saving for Apex, people will realize Diddy isn't number 1. I'm calling Apex gets taken by sheik or Dabuz (although sonics got me considering him too)
 

Andrew_Ryan

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Yeah, a lot of people are saying Sheik is overall more solid than Diddy. I feel Diddy is better because of KO power and a throwable projectile. I do wonder if Dabuz will win Apex with Rosa.

But I honestly think Diddy will win Apex. There are so many Diddys.
 

TMJ_Jack

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This thread is here to discuss Diddy Kong's recent rise to power. This is not a place to debate whether or not he should be banned. For all intensive purposes, we should assume he'll be around for at least awhile, which begs the question: How do we approach The Diddy Kong Conundrum?
 

TMJ_Jack

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I personally main Dedede with Palutena as a secondary. My (generally unsuccessful) approach is to Nair with fastfall or dodge with fastfall after Diddy's down throw, Up air combo.
 

TMJ_Jack

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Meh... Not quite what I had in mind. You see I don't want the whining at all, but moderator is supreme.
My biggest issue is my lack of options after the down throw. Dedede is slow in the air, so DI isn't particularly effective. The nair doesn't have right of way even if I manage to get it out quick enough. The same applies to the air dodge. Any options I haven't thoroughly explored?
 

Diddy Kong

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I will also testify that I think Sheik is better than Diddy. Diddy is real good all around, sure but Sheik... She's another beast. Easily best projectile and combo game in the whole game. Diddy has D Throw U Air but Sheik is even faster than Diddy, and does more damage. Think that she has the upperhand in the match up to
 

CJTHeroofTime

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Think that she has the upperhand in the match up to
Her nair demolishes Diddy up b, and at certain percents she has a guaranteed flopping fish KO on Diddy. Plus, sheiks very strong as a character in general, and has advantages over Diddy in on-stage situations Diddy is used to winning. Sheik definitely beats Diddy, and I think that's what a lot of people are waiting on apex to demonstrate
 

Diddy Kong

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Getting stage control is just so much harder vs Sheik. She just has that much speed to make even Diddy uncomfortable. And that up smash has crazy range above it! I really do not like to be above Sheik, at all. Bananas mess her flow up a lot though. It's really a heated battle on stage control.
 

Diddy Kong

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No no Brawl U Air was bad.

Give me Project M N Air though. :awesome:
 

Shrokatii

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I've played against a fair amount of Diddy's, (For Glory though, so note That.) and I don't see what the fuss is. I easily airdodge his U-air every time, and have beaten him with a lot of characters considered low tier. (Ganon, Palutena, Zelda etc.) Maybe they were tryhards or something, but he seems mid tier to me. Sure, you could say I probably haven't played against a good player playing him, but good players can make anyone seem god tier. Shiek is by far more powerful than him. She's much more solid, reliable, fast, and has a much better combo game. This is just my opinion, experiences, and watching pro players play him.
 

daedgaem

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Agree with the above poster. I beat Diddy once, so I think he is actually low tier. :^)
 

Smasher89

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Realized something that could fit kinda nice with the diddysalt atm, if someone are able to use this(and tweak) it can be kinda funny in a remix for the dkrap.
"if you wanna clap
dk, diddy kong
hes the top of the bunch
you know him well
he´s finally back
to dthrow upair
his banana peel
can force some trips
if it hits ya
its gonna hurt
hes bigger faster
and stronger too
hes the first member
of the smash 4 crew
huh
dk
diddy kong
dk
diddy kong is here
"
 

Phenomiracle

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I've played against a fair amount of Diddy's, (For Glory though, so note That.) and I don't see what the fuss is. I easily airdodge his U-air every time, and have beaten him with a lot of characters considered low tier. (Ganon, Palutena, Zelda etc.) Maybe they were tryhards or something, but he seems mid tier to me. Sure, you could say I probably haven't played against a good player playing him, but good players can make anyone seem god tier. Shiek is by far more powerful than him. She's much more solid, reliable, fast, and has a much better combo game. This is just my opinion, experiences, and watching pro players play him.
Diddy isn't a popular character in FG. Most FG Diddys are tryhards, they haven't the slightest idea on how to use him. I'd strongly recommend against using Roll Glory as a reference to how good you think a character is. Watch more high level tourney matches. Diddys plague high level play, most matches involve cookie-cutter Dthrow set ups and aerial kills.

Sheik and Diddy are even to a tea. Sheik's combo game is a league above many other characters, but Diddy's utterly nonsensical KO options are what balance the MU.

Even if Sheik outperforms Diddy at Apex (and she probably will), Diddy will probably still be hated. It's amusing how most Smash streamers do their best to avoid picking Diddy, since they know it kills the view count and the pleasure of the spectator.
 

Shrokatii

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Diddy isn't a popular character in FG. Most FG Diddys are tryhards, they haven't the slightest idea on how to use him. I'd strongly recommend against using Roll Glory as a reference to how good you think a character is. Watch more high level tourney matches. Diddys plague high level play, most matches involve cookie-cutter Dthrow set ups and aerial kills.

Sheik and Diddy are even to a tea. Sheik's combo game is a league above many other characters, but Diddy's utterly nonsensical KO options are what balance the MU.

Even if Sheik outperforms Diddy at Apex (and she probably will), Diddy will probably still be hated. It's amusing how most Smash streamers do their best to avoid picking Diddy, since they know it kills the view count and the pleasure of the spectator.
I clearly stated note it was For Glory, I have seen pro matches where Diddy has lost, tried him myself, and I do realize For Glory is barely an accurate way to judge a character. Diddy might end up being the next Meta knight, yes, but I was just sharing my experiences and opinions. I should have added to take my post lightly though.
 

FlipFlopMist

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Diddly Kong isn't the best character in the game, it's just that it's piss easy to use him really effectively.

For the newb, you have Little Mac.

For the comp guy, it's Diddy.

As we continue on with the game, having a pocket Diddy that you've played less than an hour with won't be effective anymore, an overexaggeration, yes, but so are a couple of other posts in this thread.

That being said, I hate Diddy with a passion, and wouldn't bat an eye towards him either being nerfed to being the worst character in the game, or even just flat out removed, he's not fun to play or fight against, and is extremely predictable character.
 
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Killtrox

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offline I beat almost every player I play against, with a creative combatstyle. Online, lag and imput delay destroy my style, often I'm not able to do either the easiest combo, or use correctly the up air. I think there are other characters who are much annoying to engage online.

I think diddy is now one of the strongest characters, but not the unlimited best. Sonic, Sheik and Rosalina, I think, are at least as strong as diddy.
I could approve a little nerf to diddy, but in that case also the forementioned characters should be nerfed.
And, seriously, all the whining complaints about the necessity of his ban start to become ridiculous
Paragon 2015 Smash Wii U Top 8:

1. EMP|Mew2King (Diddy Kong)
2. VS|NickRiddle (Zero Suit Samus)
3. STVG|StaticManny (Sonic)
4. Xaltis (Rosalina & Luma, Peach)
5. Player-1 (Diddy Kong, Villager)
5. Myran (Olimar)
7. Leo Heart (Diddy Kong)
7. ChoZox (Samus)

9. RyoGuikido
9. CoG|Wizzrobe (Sheik)
9. Leffen (Diddy Kong)
9. SSHQ|StreetShark (Rosalina & Luma)
13. Poltergust
13. ScaryLB59
13. STVG|Phuzix
13. CFS|TrueBlue (Sonic)

Out of all of the characters you mentioned, Diddy is most prevalent. The only Sheik in the top 8 is from Wizzrobe, currently one of the best Sheiks in competitive play. In the top 32, there were a total of three Sheiks that I saw. There are two Sonics, though their placings are pretty different and again, there weren't as many Sonics as a lot of people don't seem to find him enjoyable to play (or watch, because he's campy and boring). Rosalina's placing is due to Xaltis being highly skilled with her, and he still had to switch to Peach for some match-ups because Rosalina simply couldn't compete (I believe Olimar and Sonic). Sonic's placings can largely be due to how unreadable he is.

Then, there's Diddy. The major difference here is that out of the Sheiks, Rosalinas, and even Sonics I saw (though Sonic to a lesser extent), there were differences in playstyle. Wizzrobe relies heavily on fair combos and surprise attacks with bouncing fish, while MasterRaven uses more throw mix-ups and uses vanish often due to its ability to kill. Sonic play had minor differences, and I didn't have the chance to see the other Rosalina's play, though considering he actually placed quite a bit below Xaltis, he was either doing something wrong or should have had a secondary, as Xaltis did.

Looking at the Diddy players, the playstyles are entirely the same, because there's currently a "best way" to play Diddy. Grab > D-Throw > As many Uairs as you can get out. Side-B on attacks with lag (Zero Suit's down-smash was punished heavily by this). Fair and Bair in case of Uair whiff because they cover so much ground. Etc.

If competing players understand match-ups, especially as Mew2King does, Diddy is clearly the best. Most of his attacks out-range or out-prioritize the characters you mentioned, he's faster than most of them, has better killing power and knockback than all of them, has less lag than most of them for most moves, has better throws than all of them for the most part, can play both offensively and defensively with major success, and takes longer to kill than all of them, excluding maybe Rosalina.

After watching the top 32 of Paragon, it is unquestionable that Diddy essentially belongs in his own tier above the other high tier characters. A lot of Diddy players had a lot of success doing the same thing as every other Diddy player.

For instance, in a Captain Falcon vs Diddy match, CF landed multiple d-throws into nairs, as well as some jabs, and got Diddy to 36%. Diddy then landed a d-throw, followed by 3 Uairs, and got CF to 42%. Smash 4, as Mew2King said, is almost entirely fundamentals. Meta is required for lower tier characters like ChoZox's Samus (hype matches btw), but is hardly needed for Diddy. Things are simply easy to do with him.

Also, as @ FlipFlopMist FlipFlopMist said, Diddy is a pretty predictable character. It's fairly easy to know what he's going to throw at you, because in most situations he'll have one or two options that are most viable. The difference between him and other members of the cast is that those one or two viable options are almost certain to be better than your most viable option at that moment.

If anything, Sonic provides a tough MU for Diddy only because he's nearly impossible to read, and since Diddy's path to success relies heavily on grabs, the fact that Sonic's moves will connect with shield and then continue past make him hard to grab as well. Still, the MU is in Diddy's favor most games.

Diddy isn't a popular character in FG. Most FG Diddys are tryhards, they haven't the slightest idea on how to use him. I'd strongly recommend against using Roll Glory as a reference to how good you think a character is. Watch more high level tourney matches. Diddys plague high level play, most matches involve cookie-cutter Dthrow set ups and aerial kills.

Sheik and Diddy are even to a tea. Sheik's combo game is a league above many other characters, but Diddy's utterly nonsensical KO options are what balance the MU.

Even if Sheik outperforms Diddy at Apex (and she probably will), Diddy will probably still be hated. It's amusing how most Smash streamers do their best to avoid picking Diddy, since they know it kills the view count and the pleasure of the spectator.
Considering M2K mains Diddy and will be at Apex, I doubt Sheiks will be making it very far. Also, looking at Paragon results, there's only 1 Sheik in the top 8, and 4 Diddys. In the top 32, this extends to 3 Sheiks and even more Diddys. I'd hardly call Diddy and Sheik even. Diddy has just as much combo potential as Sheik, plus more kill power, plus being harder to kill, plus a gimp item in the banana, plus his side-b being a safer approach option than bouncing fish. Sheik certainly has a better recovery than Diddy, but she'll hardly ever get to use it because most of Diddy's kills are off of the top of the screen.
 

Diddy Kong

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Its about time APEX had some apes participating and winning though. :smirk:
 

Spatman

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Paragon 2015 Smash Wii U Top 8:

1. EMP|Mew2King (Diddy Kong)
2. VS|NickRiddle (Zero Suit Samus)
3. STVG|StaticManny (Sonic)
4. Xaltis (Rosalina & Luma, Peach)
5. Player-1 (Diddy Kong, Villager)
5. Myran (Olimar)
7. Leo Heart (Diddy Kong)
7. ChoZox (Samus)

9. RyoGuikido
9. CoG|Wizzrobe (Sheik)
9. Leffen (Diddy Kong)
9. SSHQ|StreetShark (Rosalina & Luma)
13. Poltergust
13. ScaryLB59
13. STVG|Phuzix
13. CFS|TrueBlue (Sonic)

Out of all of the characters you mentioned, Diddy is most prevalent. The only Sheik in the top 8 is from Wizzrobe, currently one of the best Sheiks in competitive play. In the top 32, there were a total of three Sheiks that I saw. There are two Sonics, though their placings are pretty different and again, there weren't as many Sonics as a lot of people don't seem to find him enjoyable to play (or watch, because he's campy and boring). Rosalina's placing is due to Xaltis being highly skilled with her, and he still had to switch to Peach for some match-ups because Rosalina simply couldn't compete (I believe Olimar and Sonic). Sonic's placings can largely be due to how unreadable he is.

Then, there's Diddy. The major difference here is that out of the Sheiks, Rosalinas, and even Sonics I saw (though Sonic to a lesser extent), there were differences in playstyle. Wizzrobe relies heavily on fair combos and surprise attacks with bouncing fish, while MasterRaven uses more throw mix-ups and uses vanish often due to its ability to kill. Sonic play had minor differences, and I didn't have the chance to see the other Rosalina's play, though considering he actually placed quite a bit below Xaltis, he was either doing something wrong or should have had a secondary, as Xaltis did.

Looking at the Diddy players, the playstyles are entirely the same, because there's currently a "best way" to play Diddy. Grab > D-Throw > As many Uairs as you can get out. Side-B on attacks with lag (Zero Suit's down-smash was punished heavily by this). Fair and Bair in case of Uair whiff because they cover so much ground. Etc.

If competing players understand match-ups, especially as Mew2King does, Diddy is clearly the best. Most of his attacks out-range or out-prioritize the characters you mentioned, he's faster than most of them, has better killing power and knockback than all of them, has less lag than most of them for most moves, has better throws than all of them for the most part, can play both offensively and defensively with major success, and takes longer to kill than all of them, excluding maybe Rosalina.

After watching the top 32 of Paragon, it is unquestionable that Diddy essentially belongs in his own tier above the other high tier characters. A lot of Diddy players had a lot of success doing the same thing as every other Diddy player.

For instance, in a Captain Falcon vs Diddy match, CF landed multiple d-throws into nairs, as well as some jabs, and got Diddy to 36%. Diddy then landed a d-throw, followed by 3 Uairs, and got CF to 42%. Smash 4, as Mew2King said, is almost entirely fundamentals. Meta is required for lower tier characters like ChoZox's Samus (hype matches btw), but is hardly needed for Diddy. Things are simply easy to do with him.

Also, as @ FlipFlopMist FlipFlopMist said, Diddy is a pretty predictable character. It's fairly easy to know what he's going to throw at you, because in most situations he'll have one or two options that are most viable. The difference between him and other members of the cast is that those one or two viable options are almost certain to be better than your most viable option at that moment.

If anything, Sonic provides a tough MU for Diddy only because he's nearly impossible to read, and since Diddy's path to success relies heavily on grabs, the fact that Sonic's moves will connect with shield and then continue past make him hard to grab as well. Still, the MU is in Diddy's favor most games.



Considering M2K mains Diddy and will be at Apex, I doubt Sheiks will be making it very far. Also, looking at Paragon results, there's only 1 Sheik in the top 8, and 4 Diddys. In the top 32, this extends to 3 Sheiks and even more Diddys. I'd hardly call Diddy and Sheik even. Diddy has just as much combo potential as Sheik, plus more kill power, plus being harder to kill, plus a gimp item in the banana, plus his side-b being a safer approach option than bouncing fish. Sheik certainly has a better recovery than Diddy, but she'll hardly ever get to use it because most of Diddy's kills are off of the top of the screen.
until now there was the monkey (lol.. in the sense of "obsession" ) of Diddy. For this reason, I think, he is so prevalent in the tops. Because for this reason all people convinced themselves Diddy is the definitive character, and so they continue to use overall him, becoming better and better at using him. So they obtain good results with him, and people continue to see him as the ultimate beast and so continue to pick him etc... It's a vicious circle. I believe and hope this circle will be broken, in a few weeks/months. So other character will be discovered, and the game will improve
 

Killtrox

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Orlando, Florida
NNID
ToFindAndBeFound
until now there was the monkey (lol.. in the sense of "obsession" ) of Diddy. For this reason, I think, he is so prevalent in the tops. Because for this reason all people convinced themselves Diddy is the definitive character, and so they continue to use overall him, becoming better and better at using him. So they obtain good results with him, and people continue to see him as the ultimate beast and so continue to pick him etc... It's a vicious circle. I believe and hope this circle will be broken, in a few weeks/months. So other character will be discovered, and the game will improve
In a way, one of those characters was discovered at Apex. ChoZox absolutely wrecked people with Samus, but the fact remains that he had to play ten times harder to do so. His fundamentals and overall skill level was higher, but he was using a worse character.
 

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
25,970
Switch FC
SW-1597-979602774
They'll probably start using stages with high ceilings against us soon.
 
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