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Differences Between Dr. Mario and Mario. (Which Italian is better than the other!)

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warionumbah2

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So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.
A kill is a kill it doesn't matter how you kill all the matters is taking a stock, if the FLUDD can take a stock them your whole argument is pointless and desperate attempt to make Dr mario look cool.

All my 'maturity' was thrown out the window the moment i decided to go on a game forum pal, 'knockback and damage are better'
so what its harder to kill via knockback in this game due to the size of the death zones making people fall so low they can't recover or gimping is the best way to go and what does Mario have? FLUDD + Cape + Easy landing spike.

As i said you're bias, so bias that you don't even realize it. You probably call FLUDD bad cause you're not good enough to him effectively(assuming).

Didn't think a facepalm would hurt you that badly. This is most likely my final reply to you as you're clearly hellbent on how 'superior' Dr mario is despite other members bringing solid points.
 
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StarLight42

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A kill is a kill it doesn't matter how you kill all the matters is taking a stock, if the FLUDD can take a stock them your whole argument is pointless and desperate attempt to make Dr mario look cool.

All my 'maturity' was thrown out the window the moment i decided to go on a game forum pal, 'knockback and damage are better'
so what its harder to kill via knockback in this game due to the size of the death zones making people fall so low they can't recover or gimping is the best way to go and what does Mario have? FLUDD + Cape + Easy landing spike.

As i said you're bias, so bias that you don't even realize it. You probably call FLUDD bad cause you're not good enough to him effectively(assuming).

Didn't think a facepalm would hurt you that badly. This is most likely my final reply to you as you're clearly hellbent on how 'superior' Dr mario is despite other members bringing solid points.
I haven't seem solid points of any kind. The only thing i've seen is constant blabbering that FLUDD is somehow better than Dr. Mario's down special because it is a good edgeguarding tool.


It was a good edgeguarding tool in Brawl, that didn't save Mario's tier list position, and judging from the 3DS demo, it doesn't look like it's changed much here.
 

!BSP

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I guess you missed my giant post.

Anyway, if mario would've had tornado in brawl as down B, it wouldn't have made any difference either. Assuming that it would behave like Luigi's, minus the amazing ground mobility, the most it would do is help recovery. It would affect it significantly, but it wouldn't change any of Mario's MUs. sonic has an amazing recovery in brawl, but he still isn't good.

Recovery isn't the main reason mk, snake, ICs, falco, olimar, Marth, and dedede, and many others trounced him, and the tornado wouldn't have Changed a thing.

His melee Dair would've been easy to di out of, and probably unsafe on hit.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Melee Dair would be easy if SDI wasn't nerfed.

As it is right now, Dair is REALLY good I imagine. VI only takes place after the KB and since SDI is way less effective, drills and multihits got a general buff, which is why I think Doc's onstage is better whereas Mario's offstage is better.

As I said, two sides of the same coin.
 

StarLight42

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I guess you missed my giant post.

Anyway, if mario would've had tornado in brawl as down B, it wouldn't have made any difference either. Assuming that it would behave like Luigi's, minus the amazing ground mobility, the most it would do is help recovery. It would affect it significantly, but it wouldn't change any of Mario's MUs. sonic has an amazing recovery in brawl, but he still isn't good.

Recovery isn't the main reason mk, snake, ICs, falco, olimar, Marth, and dedede, and many others trounced him, and the tornado wouldn't have Changed a thing.

His melee Dair would've been easy to di out of, and probably unsafe on hit.
Mario's tornado is quite different from Luigi's....

and Luigi wasn't considered lower tier in Brawl because of his tornado, it was because of his awkward physics and such
 

warionumbah2

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I haven't seem solid points of any kind. The only thing i've seen is constant blabbering that FLUDD is somehow better than Dr. Mario's down special because it is a good edgeguarding tool.


It was a good edgeguarding tool in Brawl, that didn't save Mario's tier list position, and judging from the 3DS demo, it doesn't look like it's changed much here.


Please no more replies i'm done.
 

StarLight42

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Please no more replies i'm done.
More random meme pictures rather than actual evidence that FLUDD is more useful than the Dr. Tornado.

Wow, you are really redeeming yourself! You've completely made me understand that FLUDD is better than the Dr. Tornado by posting a bunch of random pictures and making yourself look incredibly mature! Looks like i'll switch to Mario for this game! FLUDD rocks!



Honestly, i'm done too, more of this and mods are going to start attacking. Still haven't found solid evidence of Mario being better than the Doc though. Just people claiming FLUDD's pushback will affect a lot of recoveries when it's clear it will not.
 
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鉄腕
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Just wait until we get the full game in our hands, and even then it'll be a few months before we have even a sample of what could be called a tier list, if that matters at all to begin with. Just play the characters you enjoy, low or high tier no one is judging you.
 

!BSP

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Mario's tornado is quite different from Luigi's....

and Luigi wasn't considered lower tier in Brawl because of his tornado, it was because of his awkward physics and such
I know, that is why I said "minus the ground mobility". In brawl, luigi cyclone was pretty close to Mario tornado.

I said all of that because you mentioned that FLUDD didn't save Mario from low tier, which is completely true. I don't think tornado would've changed that either, however, for the reasons I gave.
 

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I think Doc might be slightly worse due to his D-Throw not being as good as Mario's, but I don't think it's noteworthy enough to say that Doc is really bad. I really think these two are closer than ever in terms of strength in this game.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I think Doc might be slightly worse due to his D-Throw not being as good as Mario's, but I don't think it's noteworthy enough to say that Doc is really bad. I really think these two are closer than ever in terms of strength in this game.
doc aint bad its just the down throw is worse and his u tilt knocks you farther back making marios staple 67 percent combo unavaliable to doc mario its pretty significant ZeRo has the video posted on his youtube channel is you wana see. is a garenteed combo.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Really? Even at Low %s? I can imagine he can't do it AS MUCH as Mario, but maybe at least once for a true combo into a Uair?
well perhaps if he went straight into up tilt. i just never seen a true combo when doc used down throw into up tilt. i was watch zero test him out in training, i imagine he could do 2 strings of up tilts if that was the combo starter but it would be hard to pull off.
but overall i do feel like mario has a bit of an advantage. but the doc certainly has some useful tools as well.
 

InfiniteTripping

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It seems to me FLUDD was only really effective as an edgeguard with characters that had very elaborate recovery moves. To be specific, Lucas and Ness. And really, the Mother Twins didn't really need a whole move devoted to killing them, they were already ridiculously vulnerable in the air in so many ways. Although I'm no pro and the ledge game has changed completely, so we'll see.

Either way, it seems like the tornado has a familiar problem with Mario specials - ridiculous end lag. It doesn't fire up and allow you to transition into anything from what it looks like. So I think either way if you go with FLUDD or tornado, it looks like Mario will have a meh down special.
 

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well perhaps if he went straight into up tilt. i just never seen a true combo when doc used down throw into up tilt. i was watch zero test him out in training, i imagine he could do 2 strings of up tilts if that was the combo starter but it would be hard to pull off.
but overall i do feel like mario has a bit of an advantage. but the doc certainly has some useful tools as well.
Oh, I'm not going to use D-Throw with Doc at all. I'm going to start combos with an approaching up air/Nair, if you're wondering. Which is what confused me haha. Now I get it, thanks!
 

Road Death Wheel

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It seems to me FLUDD was only really effective as an edgeguard with characters that had very elaborate recovery moves. To be specific, Lucas and Ness. And really, the Mother Twins didn't really need a whole move devoted to killing them, they were already ridiculously vulnerable in the air in so many ways. Although I'm no pro and the ledge game has changed completely, so we'll see.

Either way, it seems like the tornado has a familiar problem with Mario specials - ridiculous end lag. It doesn't fire up and allow you to transition into anything from what it looks like. So I think either way if you go with FLUDD or tornado, it looks like Mario will have a meh down special.
fludd is much more effective for edge guarding this time. but its more of a complementary move for cape and stuff.
Ex: link jumping back to stage mario uses fludd push him back hes forced to use up be early then you cape and free kill.
 

ConeZ

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You guys are literally holding onto straws to defend Mario. Just admit it, FLUDD sucks, and it kills Mario's metagame. Dr. Mario will continue to reign superior over Mario until FLUDD is rid of.

Even if Mario somehow becomes better than the Doc in this game for no reason, i'll still play the Doc. I prefer Mario's Smash 64/Melee moveset, it's more fun than useless FLUDD.





So you are just going to shrug off my reasoning with a facepalm? Real mature there, how about next time, you actually counter my argument instead trying to make me look like an idiot. Knockback and damage are better than just...."pushback". Plus, one of the Doc's custom moves gives Dr. Mario a very knockback oriented Dr. Tornado, so the pushback is made up for.
Just going to point out here that you did not provide any reasoning in previous posts, and I actually laughed at this post. All you said was damage>pushback. BUT as other people said Mario doesn't need it... and the tornado never did that much damage, so this is actually kinda funny to me. You aren't even providing an argument.
ALSO if we are talking about tournament viability, I am about 90% certain that custom moves won't be allowed because of various balance problems with them. In addition For Glory does not allow custom sets for pretty much that reason. Custom sets are mostly a gimmick added, so we can have more customization when we are playing for fun, and using them as a basis for which character is better is irrelevant, and it only makes your argument worse.

Fludd fulfills a different role than Dr.Tornado, and it is a good gimping tool when used correctly, and Dr.Tornado is not a combat move, as much as it is a recovery/stall move, so arguing that it does damage is bad anyways. I don't think there will ever be a situation where you'd rather use it for damage than a tilt, smash, aerial, jab combo, grab.

Anyways, point is, don't get mad at people for countering your argument badly when you aren't making an argument. You are making empty statements and wasting people's time.
 

StarLight42

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Just going to point out here that you did not provide any reasoning in previous posts, and I actually laughed at this post. All you said was damage>pushback. BUT as other people said Mario doesn't need it... and the tornado never did that much damage, so this is actually kinda funny to me. You aren't even providing an argument.
ALSO if we are talking about tournament viability, I am about 90% certain that custom moves won't be allowed because of various balance problems with them. In addition For Glory does not allow custom sets for pretty much that reason. Custom sets are mostly a gimmick added, so we can have more customization when we are playing for fun, and using them as a basis for which character is better is irrelevant, and it only makes your argument worse.

Fludd fulfills a different role than Dr.Tornado, and it is a good gimping tool when used correctly, and Dr.Tornado is not a combat move, as much as it is a recovery/stall move, so arguing that it does damage is bad anyways. I don't think there will ever be a situation where you'd rather use it for damage than a tilt, smash, aerial, jab combo, grab.

Anyways, point is, don't get mad at people for countering your argument badly when you aren't making an argument. You are making empty statements and wasting people's time.
I'm done arguing either way. Some people can believe FLUDD is the better move, we will see when the first tier list comes out.
 

LordVacation

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Ugh.
I hate "better" and "tiers" etc.
Can't certain people be better than others with certain characters?
Is it not possible for ANY character to be the "best"?

Seems like such a way to tie everything in a bow and keep everything in order.. idk..
 

RoA_Zam

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As long as he has a cape still and his Fair is still a kill move, he's still going to be better, as far as I see it.

As for pills, it's not about damage, it's about the hitstun that makes them good. a few % less on pills doesn't bother me. And the argument about them bouncing over medium characters is irrelevant since the majority of the time you want to use pills is in the air anyways since they have a more recognizable path.

His recovery was always bad. Anyone willing to get good at him will easily find a way around his jump ability and his tornado and use them to the full extent for recovery.

You can still fast-fall moves... at least in the demo almost every move Mario has is able to fast-fall. Theres now a short star twinkle near your head when you fast-fall without a move, and also when you roll in either direction. It's still there.

His Uair may still have a weak hit that still allows for combos. I know Mario's Fair has a weak hit that sends them upwards at a diagonal angle instead of straight down, and I know Mario's Uair has a weak hitbox, so the same can apply to Doc for Uair. The spacing for consistently getting them is not worth my time though. More knockback just means it has applications at earlier percents, such as rising Uair into a Fair and follow up after.

His Fsmash hitboxes seem to be improved also, so I think they will have more application other than catching people off-guard, or using it out of a Dthrow.

I'm going to make this character work. I have faith that he will still remain better than Mario no matter how fun it is to dunk people below the stage with a Mario Fair.
 

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I'm going to be running his combo game to its fullest. His Utilt apparently has more KB than Mario's so it's more ideal for like, low % combos. Uair into Utilt on a grounded foe, chase, etc.
 

Thor

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Ugh.
I hate "better" and "tiers" etc.
Can't certain people be better than others with certain characters?
Is it not possible for ANY character to be the "best"?
Seems like such a way to tie everything in a bow and keep everything in order.. idk..
People can be better than other players, but that doesn't mean that we can't make a list of the characters in terms of viability when looking at two players at relatively equal (and high-level) skill. There's a reason matchup charts are constructed.

As an easy-to-understand example, let's look at vBrawl Falco versus Ganondorf [and a short bit on ICs versus Ganondorf].

Ganondorf could not handle Falco in Brawl because Falco could just run away shooting lasers all day, and when Ganondorf got close, Falco had an incredible spotdodge to avoid anything IF he lets Ganondorf get too close, but more often he has dash attack -> usmash for 23% while knocking Ganondorf away, his jab to rapid jab Ganondorf or just box him away, and he could side+B through Ganondorf when Ganondorf more or less had to predict and punish it, being nearly unable to punish on reaction. He also has a grab, and Falco can also rush Ganondorf down and out-box him with his jab, and then grab him and proceed to chaingrab him to 50%, and if at the edge, get guaranteed sweet-spot down-air, which then leaves Ganondorf meteor-cancelling and using up+B, so then Falco can drop off and footstool Ganondorf, then regrab the ledge to watch Ganondorf fall helplessly. And if he messes up the end of it, Falco can still opt for just the dair, then run to the opposite side of the stage and shoot lasers. If he takes the non-gimp option, Falco can then camp the side of the stage with lasers, and if Ganondorf attacks his shield with pretty much anything but usmash, Falco can grab and backthrow, then side+B to the opposite side and unleash another barrage of lasers and repeat until Ganondorf reaches about 150%, at which point Falco just needs a single usmash (which can be combo'd from a laser, dthrow, or used to punish almost anything Ganondorf whiffs with) and then he can force the chaingrab/continue to camp Ganondorf to death and repeat. Yes if Ganondorf hits Falco Falco can be in trouble, but Falco has so many tools to play keep away, AND the jab that means he can hit A 3 frames AFTER Ganondorf does ANYTHING and hit Ganondorf before Ganondorf gets a hitbox out, means that this MU is utter trash.

More simply, Ganondorf doesn't have any options that are safe on Ice Climber's shield - nearly all of them can be powershielded on reaction or spotdodged, and then they just need one grab to get a stock, and since nothing is safe on their shield, they grab him out of lag. And their grab outranges his, so he can't actually space a grab without being grabbed himself.
Then the fact of the matter is that with Ganondorf getting destroyed so thoroughly by Falco and Ice Climbers, it is not possible for him to be the best because he will always be outdone by these two characters.

So what happens then is that a character has a ton of MU explanations like this (most not so polarizing), and when you look at all of them, a character can stand out as better or worse because they do better in almost every situation (in Meta Knight's case in Brawl, there was literally not a single character he could not beat or go even with, so he was obviously the best when every other character had a character that could beat them). And so when some character has terrible MUs almost across the board, they are able to be considered the best from a competition standpoint because they are outclassed by other characters.
From this knowledge, and an understanding of what a character can do in general (high KO power versus low KO power, high damage output versus low damage output, good recovery versus bad recovery, etc.), we can form of a list of the characters from best to worst. That's all a tier list really is - who can do the best in a tournament setting assuming equal skill among the players?

You are, of course, under no obligation to care about tiers, or play a character higher up or farther down, but it's incorrect to state that any character can be the best, when some characters simply can't keep up with other characters.

---------

In terms of the actual question at hand, I don't really know - tornado > water, nair could be better for floating in with it on shield (shieldstun is tied to damage [I believe] so late nair will be better shield pressure than Mario's early nair - spacing it to auto-cancel/very low land lag could make Doc's shield pressure followups good) and I don't think up+B is nerfed really (it does one rather strong hit or one decent hit depending on if it hits the opponent) but time will tell, since Mario's meteor IS pretty awesome and I don't know about relative KO power of the two.
 

ConeZ

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Ugh.
I hate "better" and "tiers" etc.
Can't certain people be better than others with certain characters?
Is it not possible for ANY character to be the "best"?

Seems like such a way to tie everything in a bow and keep everything in order.. idk..
So... would you be willing to argue that A skilled Brawl Jigglypuff could go equal with a skilled Brawl Metaknight?
 

Morbi

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To be honest, I do not care if Dr. Mario is worse than Mario. If the good doctor is half the character that Mario is, I should be able to manage his tools just fine. The differences seem negligible for the most part, at that point, it becomes a question of preference. I prefer the tornado, I prefer the classic d-air, and I prefer the pills. Dr. Mario is just my kind of character, even if he lacks a medical license.
 

LordVacation

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So... would you be willing to argue that A skilled Brawl Jigglypuff could go equal with a skilled Brawl Metaknight?
Why not?
Why would the creators of the game make it so the characters go in order of "viability"?
If you're going to argue that a skilled ____ player couldn't beat a skilled _____ player, because of a "tier-list" you better have a damn good argument other than that trash.
 

MasterOfKnees

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Why not?
Why would the creators of the game make it so the characters go in order of "viability"?
If you're going to argue that a skilled ____ player couldn't beat a skilled _____ player, because of a "tier-list" you better have a damn good argument other than that trash.
They don't make bad balance intentionally. For a game as varied as Smash you can't achieve a perfect balance between characters, there will always be characters that have clear advantages over each other, it's quite simple.

For example, Mewtwo in Melee has a very simple design flaw in that he's light-weight (aka easy to kill) but also very tall (not to mention that his tail has a hitbox), which means it's easy to hit him and easy to kill him. On top of that Mewtwo is slow (thus predictable) and has very little KO power, so in the end the only above average thing about him is probably his recovery. We can then compare him to his superior Pokémon counterpart, which is Jigglypuff. She too is light-weight, in fact she has the lowest weight of any Smash Bros character ever, but to make up for it she's small, has a lot of fast and hard-hitting moves in the air, also has a great recovery (5 jumps plus Pound) and she can combo into what is essentially a one-hit KO. While she shares one of the same flaws as Mewtwo she has so many more advantages over him too, thus it's illogical to not say that she's the stronger character.

We can also take a Brawl example. Ganondorf is very slow and very predictable and he certainly doesn't hit hard enough to make up for it either, and on top of that he's got a sluggish recovery. Then we have Meta Knight, who is small, fast, has a godly recovery, his attacks out-prioritize everyone else's, he has an unmatched aerial game with incredible gimping potential, he has tons of great tools at his exposal that helps him mix up his approaching abilities (the tornado and gliding being the most notable), and on top of that he has certain attacks that hit just as hard as many of Ganondorf's but comes out a ton faster. The only thing Ganondorf has over Meta Knight at all is his weight, which arguably doesn't matter much considering Meta Knight is a much harder target to hit anyways due to his size and speed.

In the case of Dr. Mario vs Mario in Melee the former hits much harder but has a bit more lag on his moves, while Mario is generally faster but doesn't hit as hard. The trade-off for speed is not considered worth it since Dr. Mario already moves at a decent pace, so he doesn't require said speed as much as Mario requires that extra punch of power.

Fact of the matter is that some characters simple do have better tools and stats than others, perfect balance between characters simply can't be achieved, especially not in a cast of what's currently 48 characters, theoretically a frame-perfect Ganondorf will never be able to beat a frame-perfect Meta Knight in a fair battle because Meta Knight as a whole just has the better stats and moves. Now of course the tier lists aren't necessarily 100% right, they should be read as rough outlines and a general idea of who places where, anyone who takes it too much to heart is going to hurt themselves, there's a reason they change ever so often after all.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Really the differences between Doc and Mario lie in their combo game. Doc's D-Throw is a LOT worse than Mario's(it's primarily a positional throw) so Doc mains have to get creative with their approach, i.e. falling Uairs against a grounded opponent, maybe reverse Nair, all to set up into Utilt(which has higher KB meaning it works better than Mario's for low % combos that don't involve a throw.) Of course their offstage is also different, but I think Doc's cape not stalling has some advantages, like making dynamic gimping a bit easier due to Doc falling as he uses the Side-B, but yeah.

Overall the prime differences lie in offstage, combo game, and....wow, they're actually REALLY different from each other, aren't they?
 

ConeZ

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Why not?
Why would the creators of the game make it so the characters go in order of "viability"?
If you're going to argue that a skilled ____ player couldn't beat a skilled _____ player, because of a "tier-list" you better have a damn good argument other than that trash.
My question was the argument. If you had any knowledge of Metaknight's tools in brawl versus Jigglypuff's tools in brawl, you would notice that there is a noticeable difference in that Metaknight is faster, his moves are stronger, they have more priority, and they generally have better range.
The point is that in a game like this, despite all their efforts to balance it and make each character useable, it is difficult because each character is limited to the tools that they are given. If those limited tools are not as good as the tools of another character, then the other character is simply better. It is like walking into a gunfight with your fists. In every fighting game, and every game in general, there are tier lists because some characters are better than others, and some are just plain bad.
If you don't believe me, check tier lists, then check empirical data of matchup analyses and tournament placing on a character to character basis, and you will see that high tiers characters win more/lose fewer matchups, and they place better in tournament play because their tools are better than the tools of lower tier characters.

Jigglypuff, for example, suffers in Brawl because of damage/knockback staling, relying on 1/2 moves in neutral, and one of those 2 moves being her Bair (the other being Fair), being her most crucial killing move. Also her ground game is slow with small range, she is incredibly light/easy to KO, and Rest was SEVERELY nerfed from melee making it an essentially useless move until later percents, and even then, comboing into it in Brawl was not going to happen at that point. Point being, her tools in Brawl were severely limited. Playing Jigglypuff v. Metaknight was like taking a napkin as your weapon to a swordfight.

Edit: didn't include rollout and sing as useless moves because I felt it was obvious, but here's my acknowledging that now.
 
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ConeZ

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Meant to edit... not quote. ignore this post.
 
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BombKirby

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Why not?
Why would the creators of the game make it so the characters go in order of "viability"?
If you're going to argue that a skilled ____ player couldn't beat a skilled _____ player, because of a "tier-list" you better have a damn good argument other than that trash.
Because video games are MATH. Not real life. If two even skilled players face each other and one has the mathematical advantage by using a character like MK in Brawl and the other is using a character at a mathematical disadvantage like Jiggs, the MK dude is gonna win. The crusade to crush tiers is always so flawed because you can't argue that 7 priority is worse than 4 priority. The guy with 7 on all his moves is going to win every single time.

The game devs don't decide who's best, it just happens. Every single modern PvP game has balancing patches if they notice certain characters with 60% of the time and others win 40% of the time. There's data and evidence and everything that proves not all characters are created equally.

Tiers are just a list anyways. VERY few people use them to pick their main. Very few people say "Uhh yeah I'm dropping my main because X character was just placed higher than him recently." There are people like that but most of us like to either pick characters who we like lore-wise or playstyle-wise.
 
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Balloonicorn

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It's really hard to tell who's "better" but from what it looks like, Dr. Mario has extremely bad recovery. I'm not sure if that's actually the case but it seems that it's quite a bit worse than Mario's. Tornado seems to give very little distance and cape doesn't really do much for his recovery either.
 

Dr_Falchion

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I think the two will, at the very least, be much more balanced than they were in Melee (and Project M for that matter). Doc seems to have some small but significant problems, while Mario has some small but significant buffs. I think they'll be very evenly matched.
 

Gidy

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Dr. Mario has better punishes and recovery

Mario has better combos and speed

Done
 

Masonomace

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If Mario's FLUDD push-back power was equal to :squirtle:'s Water Gun, then there'd be no more arguments of who's better or worse, albeit making that "IF" situation is irrelevant.

Honestly, they share practically the same move-set with similar properties or usage with a few notable differences in knockback, % damage, & other aspects. The Tier gap between these characters will not be that far from each other, just look at Melee's most recent Tier List showing both Mario's in A Tier. . .

Character preference will decide at first who they'd rather play. General knowledge & learning of the Mario's will overtime decide who's better or worst. Even then, the level of difference in who does more impressively against their assorted MU's won't be that big of a difference.
Dr. Mario has better punishes and recovery

Mario has better combos and speed

Done
I wish it was that easy & quick.:urg:
 
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